Saving a badly ported 2-pc intake?

[ShelGame]

So, I picked up a 2-pc intake over the weeknd for a mere $100. Surprised none of the western Michiganders got it since it was on the GR craigslist. Anyway, I met the guy in Belleville on Sat and picked it up.

It's been ported (badly, IMO). But, only near the gasket flanges. On the lower, the guy left only ~2mm between the ports and the edge of the flange. That's the short side and I think he took out too much there. At the head, he simply just hacked it up. Not smooth, the ports are all different shapes, etc. So, who on TM does good 2-pc porting? Anyone want to take a stab at saving this thing for me? I'll try to get pics of the beast up tonight.

I guess if it can't be saved, I can still use the lower as the start of an intake for my 'someday' superstock 8v project engine.

The upper can definitely be saved, as he didn't really do much there. I'd like to use it on my van, but I also have plenty of 1-pc intakes I can use for it...

[xdig]

Moparzrule ported my 2-pc and did a terrific job. I would check with him.

[moparzrule]

PM sent rob, pics don't tell the whole story but I'll take a look.

Definitely post up a pic of the lower piece with a gasket on it please.

[ShelGame]

I don't have a gasket. But, I'll post pics tonight. After karate with my kid...

[moparzrule]

Ahh, $4 for the felpro (my preferred) at autozone and it comes with the gasket for in between the two halves too! Stop by on your way home!

[ShelGame]

OK, pics.

[Frank]

Get your money back... that is horrid!!!

[ShelGame]

Yep, I know. I don't really think it can be saved now. At first, I was hoping it could. I'm now leaning toward 'sacrificing' it for use on my superstock engine to-be. I've been looking for a 2-pc lower to cut the flange off of anyway. I'll put a new flange on it, then make fiberglass/carbon airhorns and bolt-on plenum. We'll see.

[bgbmxer]

its aluminum correct so it can be built back up by being tig welded and then matt can do the porting

[BadAssPerformance]

OK, I retract my previous statement that any monkey with a dremel can port, I think we found one that cannot.

[mpgmike]

Looks like he was either trying to mate it up to an '81 655 head, or (gasp) I'd hate to see the head he "ported" to match.

Mike

[minigts]

I don't have a gasket. But, I'll post pics tonight. After karate with my kid...

Dude, please don't take it out on the kid...

[GLHNSLHT2]

scary but with a little weld it might be salvagable for a 655 head.

[bgbmxer]

scary but with a little weld it might be salvagable for a 655 head.

with welding why couldnt it be good for any head

[moparzrule]

I could save it for a 655 head, or honestly you could probably have any head ported matched to it. The floor of the intake ports is really deep, I bet it could be done without any welding. I know Tyler was having some decent results working on a 287 G head and taking the floor down like a 655.
I have a 655 head laying around, are you interested Rob? I could port both up for you for a good deal.

[ShelGame]

I could save it for a 655 head, or honestly you could probably have any head ported matched to it. The floor of the intake ports is really deep, I bet it could be done without any welding. I know Tyler was having some decent results working on a 287 G head and taking the floor down like a 655.
I have a 655 head laying around, are you interested Rob? I could port both up for you for a good deal.

Well, that depends on what a 'good deal' is. I'm short of cash right now, especially for some future engine project that I might never get to.

Sounds very interesting though. What can you make a 655 flow? What do you do to the chamber? I want to build a 300hp NA 8V for drag racing in super stock.

[Juggy]

that one could be saved!!! but ya, 655 port for real lol

i bet they didnt even hit the roof

[BadAssPerformance]

There is a reason the later heads/intakes didnt have the floor so low...

[GLHNSLHT2]

it's already been proven the 655 outflows the later Ghead, and the 782 head at all valve lifts. Notice the head going on Terry's 10 second minivan :)

[turbovanman²]

OK, I retract my previous statement that any monkey with a dremel can port, I think we found one that cannot.

No sh*t, that's terrible.

I don't think the lower is that bad at the head, but at the plenum, wow, :( Some careful welding and it should be ok.

[boost geek]

If I found an intake like that, I'd grab it. I would cut off the plenum end, and make a nice medium length runner intake out of it. :)

For a 655 of coarse...

[Juggy]

No sh*t, that's terrible.

I don't think the lower is that bad at the head, but at the plenum, wow, :( Some careful welding and it should be ok.


i think its the opposite.....head side is horrid....still lots of meat left to clean up @ the plenum side....


alot of people when they open up the 2 piece just gasket match it, and port it straight down...just like this one looks...someone could easily round off that top corner and raise the roof @ that area which minimizes the short turn as welll

[johnl]

It's hard to weld inside a port, at least with a TIG; you can't get the torch head in there. The short turn at the top side of the lower is awful; shouldn't be touched on the short turn. Same thing at the other end, where the lower meets the head - dropping the floor of the manifold messes with the short turn into the head.

[GLHNSLHT2]

one look at the flow bench #'s on a 655 head vs, the 287 or the 782 and you'll see that opening up the manifold to match the 655 head won't hurt it at all.

[GLHNSLHT2]

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f17/127958-stock-782-vs-stock-655-8v.html Flow bench graphs from the same bench.

[moparzrule]

There is a reason the later heads/intakes didnt have the floor so low...

And that is? Tyler has been doing flow bench testing, and gained flow at all lifts by lowering the floor on a 287 casting.



No sh*t, that's terrible.

I don't think the lower is that bad at the head, but at the plenum, wow, :( Some careful welding and it should be ok.

Umm, quite the opposite. I could fix the stuff at the plenum, at the flange for the head is the harder challenge to make right, but as long as he goes 655 head if should work.


Well, that depends on what a 'good deal' is. I'm short of cash right now, especially for some future engine project that I might never get to.

Sounds very interesting though. What can you make a 655 flow? What do you do to the chamber? I want to build a 300hp NA 8V for drag racing in super stock.

I can do anything you want done, from mild to wild! The head is complete right now, and since you are going N/A I would only worry about replacing the valve springs and keepers. Ported the way you want it and the intake fixed the best I can, I'd say like $250 plus shipping back to you, for both. The head would need cleaned, surfaced, and a valve job. I would ship it back to you unassembled.

Hmm yeah I dunno if a G head is what you want for N/A, unless you are getting some flattop pistons and zero decking your block which you might be doing anyway so maybe.

[ShelGame]

I can do anything you want done, from mild to wild! The head is complete right now, and since you are going N/A I would only worry about replacing the valve springs and keepers. Ported the way you want it and the intake fixed the best I can, I'd say like $250 plus shipping back to you, for both. The head would need cleaned, surfaced, and a valve job. I would ship it back to you unassembled.

Hmm yeah I dunno if a G head is what you want for N/A, unless you are getting some flattop pistons and zero decking your block which you might be doing anyway so maybe.

Sounds like a decent price. Maybe late this summer.

What do you do to the chambers? I'd like to reduce the chamber volume, if possible. With a stock Bathtub chamber volume and flat top pistons, I can just get to the CR I want. So, if you can reduce the volume, I can run dished pistons for now, and go back to flat tops if I want to increase the CR later.

Is it possible to make the 287 intake ports look like the 655's? Any advantage?

[BadAssPerformance]

And that is? Tyler has been doing flow bench testing, and gained flow at all lifts by lowering the floor on a 287 casting.

Flowed how, with no manifold? or with what intake?

I'm not saying it cannot flow more, making a hole bigger will do that. Just that it is part of the reason why the ports on the later heads were not that low, but thats also coming from the same guys that made raised port heads.

[t3rse]

OK, I retract my previous statement that any monkey with a dremel can port, I think we found one that cannot.

lol!!! sub-primate....

[BadFastGTC]

You need stock port volumes for SS racing.



Well, that depends on what a 'good deal' is. I'm short of cash right now, especially for some future engine project that I might never get to.

Sounds very interesting though. What can you make a 655 flow? What do you do to the chamber? I want to build a 300hp NA 8V for drag racing in super stock.

[BadFastGTC]

The head can flow more total air, but if it takes the manometer 3 minutes to drop, the head sucks, even if it flows more air.




it's already been proven the 655 outflows the later Ghead, and the 782 head at all valve lifts. Notice the head going on Terry's 10 second minivan :)

[moparzrule]

Sounds like a decent price. Maybe late this summer.

What do you do to the chambers? I'd like to reduce the chamber volume, if possible. With a stock Bathtub chamber volume and flat top pistons, I can just get to the CR I want. So, if you can reduce the volume, I can run dished pistons for now, and go back to flat tops if I want to increase the CR later.

Is it possible to make the 287 intake ports look like the 655's? Any advantage?

Either way, it's not going anywhere. I bought it for my shadow, which I've sold. The minivan is staying G head with a stock T2 turbo, nothing extreme there. So I have no use for it.

I can do the same thing Terry (gasketmaster) did to his 655 head, make it kinda like a half swirl hybrid. But yeah that would increase the CC's of course, there's nothing I can do to decrease it. The only way is to surface the head, I think flattop pistons would be the way to go.

It is possible, but it takes more work. I don't see any advantage in doing that over a 655 head.

[moparzrule]

Flowed how, with no manifold? or with what intake?

I'm not saying it cannot flow more, making a hole bigger will do that. Just that it is part of the reason why the ports on the later heads were not that low, but thats also coming from the same guys that made raised port heads.

Just the head alone I would assume.

You still haven't stated the reason the newer heads have the lower part raised up.
IMO chrysler raise the port to increase velocity, they were trying to make their cars more street friendly, and probably it helps with fuel mileage as well. For racing, which is the intended purpose here, max flow is what you want, so why not start with the bigger hole which flows more?

[Gaboon]

Just the head alone I would assume.

You still haven't stated the reason the newer heads have the lower part raised up.
IMO chrysler raise the port to increase velocity, they were trying to make their cars more street friendly, and probably it helps with fuel mileage as well. For racing, which is the intended purpose here, max flow is what you want, so why not start with the bigger hole which flows more?

Go for it and let us know how that works out.

[BadAssPerformance]

You still haven't stated the reason the newer heads have the lower part raised up.
IMO chrysler raise the port to increase velocity, they were trying to make their cars more street friendly, and probably it helps with fuel mileage as well. For racing, which is the intended purpose here, max flow is what you want, so why not start with the bigger hole which flows more?

Is velocity only desired on the street? :confused2: Does a bigger hole actualy flow more if it has to bend around a sharp corner? :confused2:

[moparzrule]

Go for it and let us know how that works out.

Whats that suppose to mean? I already said it's not desireable for a street setup.


Is velocity only desired on the street? :confused2: Does a bigger hole actualy flow more if it has to bend around a sharp corner? :confused2:

Not at all. There just won't be as much velocity, I didn't say the lower part of the port completely kills it. I believe chrysler did it to improve low end throttle response and fuel mileage. The port was simply too large, for example the chevy 302 in the 69' Z28 camaro. The ports were simply HUGE, and it was kinda a drag to drive it on the street without turning really high RPM's all the time. But those engines were dominating at the track.
Yes it does flow more, per a flow bench test. Some people with high end setups are starting to try the 655 head, like Terry trying for 10 seconds in his mini.
For someone who called me out for not wanting to try new ideas in this community, you sure are being pretty pessimistic about something you don't really know about.

[boost geek]

Have you seen the intake ports on the raffle engine? No flat floors there...

[BadAssPerformance]

Not at all. There just won't be as much velocity, I didn't say the lower part of the port completely kills it. I believe chrysler did it to improve low end throttle response and fuel mileage. The port was simply too large, for example the chevy 302 in the 69' Z28 camaro. The ports were simply HUGE, and it was kinda a drag to drive it on the street without turning really high RPM's all the time. But those engines were dominating at the track.
Yes it does flow more, per a flow bench test. Some people with high end setups are starting to try the 655 head, like Terry trying for 10 seconds in his mini.
For someone who called me out for not wanting to try new ideas in this community, you sure are being pretty pessimistic about something you don't really know about.

I've seen the SMP head, it had HUGE ports, not saying that large ports dont help. I am merely saying that lowering the floor and making a hard corner on the short radius is probably not the best way to get there.

I give credit to those trying the 655 heads :thumb: BTW, has anyone got cross section pics of a 655? The G-head and swirl have different enough port shapes, I'm guessing a 655 with a lower floor wouldnt be as bad as a swirl with a lower floor...

And since when do you think you have a clue of what I know about heads or anything? :confused2:

[cordes]

1st off, that is the most horrible thing I have seen porting wise ever. Any person who has looked at a singe pic of anything which has been ported could understand that this looks horrible.

2nd off, should all these argumentative posts be moved to the other argument thread before people start getting crazy and even more off track, or is this thread the rematch thread?

[The Pope]

the 655 has a HIGHER FLOOR WHERE IT MATTERS. Gawd this is sad, more low lift flow isn't going to hurt bottom end spool up. Our turbo engines have too much velocity and need to gain volume. The floor needs to be raised at the valve, lower at the gasket doesn't effect that. The 782 has a high floor at the gasket and a super terrible floor at the valve where it matters. The 655 actually has a little too much floor in the form of an emission bump just before the valve seat. The idea that our big valves are big is funny, the "big valves" are where our heads should have been new. The idea the 655 intake ports are too big is also a funny joke compared to nearly anything out there. The 655 is still smaller than a 2.3 Ford 8v head for starters.

as for those willing to try, don't with a 1 piece. It is too much work as you end up with intake ports a lot bigger than your intake runners. Just because you get them that big at the head doesn't matter, they need to be that big the whole way.

[cordes]

This thread is officially a powder keg.

[Gaboon]

Whats that suppose to mean? I already said it's not desireable for a street setup.




All I said was go for it and let us know. I suppose that's what I mean.

[moparzrule]

All I said was go for it and let us know. I suppose that's what I mean.

Umm OK, but when you say that you act like you know whats going to happen...so what results in your opinion would you be expecting that would make you say go for it?

I also already said I wasn't going to use it on my van because it's a daily driver and a stockish setup.

[boost geek]

as for those willing to try, don't with a 1 piece. It is too much work as you end up with intake ports a lot bigger than your intake runners. Just because you get them that big at the head doesn't matter, they need to be that big the whole way.

:eyebrows:
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2909.jpg

[moparzrule]

LOL, well thats one way to do it :thumb:

[Gaboon]

Umm OK, but when you say that you act like you know whats going to happen...so what results in your opinion would you be expecting that would make you say go for it?

I also already said I wasn't going to use it on my van because it's a daily driver and a stockish setup.


I know absolutely nothing being a total newb to these cars which is why I want some daring person to try it and let us know just how it works.

I want to go speedy fast some day. *claps hands rapidly together*

[black86glhs]

:eyebrows:
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2909.jpgI love the plenum volume!!:love:

[BadAssPerformance]

the 655 has a HIGHER FLOOR WHERE IT MATTERS. Gawd this is sad, more low lift flow isn't going to hurt bottom end spool up. Our turbo engines have too much velocity and need to gain volume. The floor needs to be raised at the valve, lower at the gasket doesn't effect that. The 782 has a high floor at the gasket and a super terrible floor at the valve where it matters. The 655 actually has a little too much floor in the form of an emission bump just before the valve seat. The idea that our big valves are big is funny, the "big valves" are where our heads should have been new. The idea the 655 intake ports are too big is also a funny joke compared to nearly anything out there. The 655 is still smaller than a 2.3 Ford 8v head for starters.

as for those willing to try, don't with a 1 piece. It is too much work as you end up with intake ports a lot bigger than your intake runners. Just because you get them that big at the head doesn't matter, they need to be that big the whole way.

Who said the 655 ports are too big? Got a cross section pic of a 655 for us?

[bakes]

Is this the same guy who did the intake???????????
http://www.orlandoforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132873

[GLHNSLHT2]

Have you seen the intake ports on the raffle engine? No flat floors there...

Have you seen the roof of the ports on the raffle engine?

[boost geek]

Flat roof, round floor.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/SDAC_eng2.jpg

[GLHNSLHT2]

look closer

[boost geek]

What do you see that I don't see?

[moparzrule]

I know absolutely nothing being a total newb to these cars which is why I want some daring person to try it and let us know just how it works.

I want to go speedy fast some day. *claps hands rapidly together*

Right. Well, you obviously think I'm a moron. You almost have a 10 second car and you are a total newb on these cars huh? Whatever.

[moparzrule]

What do you see that I don't see?

He doesn't see anything, he likes to pretend he knows what he's talking about to look good...which is why he didn't answer you and he's been online since your reply.

But anyway to answer your question, you can't tell in the pic (which is why he's full of it) but I'm guessing the roof has a lateral angle taper. Meaning if you look straight down the port, the roof will be tilted, giving an extra swirl affect. It's like a 2 liter bottle of coke. How's the coke gonna come out faster, if you just flip it upside down and let it pour straight out, or give it a little swirl?

But anyway, the roof has little to no affect on the discussion about the floor of the port. So way to go again glhnslh2 for trying to sound good, when the point you brought up is....pointless.

[Gaboon]

Right. Well, you obviously think I'm a moron. You almost have a 10 second car and you are a total newb on these cars huh? Whatever.

Dang, can't a guy drunk post and have fun once in a while?? Sheesh.

[GLHNSLHT2]

He doesn't see anything, he likes to pretend he knows what he's talking about to look good...which is why he didn't answer you and he's been online since your reply.

But anyway to answer your question, you can't tell in the pic (which is why he's full of it) but I'm guessing the roof has a lateral angle taper. Meaning if you look straight down the port, the roof will be tilted, giving an extra swirl affect. It's like a 2 liter bottle of coke. How's the coke gonna come out faster, if you just flip it upside down and let it pour straight out, or give it a little swirl?

But anyway, the roof has little to no affect on the discussion about the floor of the port. So way to go again glhnslh2 for trying to sound good, when the point you brought up is....pointless.

I'm always online you dipshit. If you can't see the problem with the roof then that's your problem. Think about how air flows and look at the roof again for all you others.

[moparzrule]

Why don't you enlighten us to what you are seeing? We are all blind I guess.

[cordes]

I knew we should have moved this to the argument thread.

[black86glhs]

I knew we should have moved this to the argument thread.I agree. I was hoping for some real insight. Oh well.:(

[moparzrule]

Yeah I'm hoping for the insight that glhnslht2 can see in that pic that we are all blind too. I'm guessing he won't tell us, for said reasons (he doesn't really know, just wants to sound smart).

BTW I just gave everybody a great head porting tip in post 55, if you were looking for info.

[moparzrule]

Bump, still waiting for an answer.

[ShelGame]

You need stock port volumes for SS racing.

Not for SS/GS. It's a lb/cuin class. The only tech is to pump the motor for displacement. Other than that - it's wide open...

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah I'm hoping for the insight that glhnslht2 can see in that pic that we are all blind too. I'm guessing he won't tell us, for said reasons (he doesn't really know, just wants to sound smart).

What you're the only one who can play that game? :confused2:


BTW I just gave everybody a great head porting tip in post 55, if you were looking for info.

Do you call that the tidy bowl effect? :confused2: got data?


Bump, still waiting for an answer.

Bump, still waiting for you to answer a bunch of questions in the other thread :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

Not for SS/GS. It's a lb/cuin class. The only tech is to pump the motor for displacement. Other than that - it's wide open...

BTW, didja see that Kish broke the record in SS/GS again with his neon... 12.97 @ 107 :eek: :clap:

[ShelGame]

BTW, didja see that Kish broke the record in SS/GS again with his neon... 12.97 @ 107 :eek: :clap:

No, when/where? Did he have the 'R' on the windshield?

[moparzrule]

Do you call that the tidy bowl effect? :confused2: got data?



Bump, still waiting for you to answer a bunch of questions in the other thread :thumb:

Tidy bowl effect?? I don't give a rats --- about proving anything to you.
If you guys that want to port your own stuff out there, want to try a good tip given to me by a guy that ports $1200 heads, inspite the fact that almighty JT thinks he knows more than me even about porting too apparently, give what I said a shot.

Well I opted out of that thread because even after I gave hard facts data you don't accept what I say anyway. So whatever.

I just want to know what glhnslht2 is seeing....enlighten us please!

[BadAssPerformance]

No, when/where? Did he have the 'R' on the windshield?

Joliet, got a txt on the 13th :thumb: Just got my National Dragster and it is in there too :thumb:

[Juggy]

im sorry to say this, but its repeated argumental threads like this, that remind me of "THE OTHER FORUM".....

quit being a bunch of babies, i thought we were all here to learn from each other??? seems like its become more of a nag. shiiit i might as well be hangin with the woman right now, rather then being....a.....gazer?!? :lol:

[BadAssPerformance]

Tidy bowl effect?? I don't give a rats --- about proving anything to you.
If you guys that want to port your own stuff out there, want to try a good tip given to me by a guy that ports $1200 heads, inspite the fact that almighty JT thinks he knows more than me even about porting too apparently, give what I said a shot.

Well I opted out of that thread because even after I gave hard facts data you don't accept what I say anyway. So whatever.

I just want to know what glhnslht2 is seeing....enlighten us please!

I wasnt the only one asking you questions you couldnt answer.

Almighty JT? dude, please dont say that unless you use the :hail: smilie ok? :thumb: and I hardly think I'm 'almighty' for merely questioning things that get claimed without proof of anything... I would maybe prefer.... "the great inqusitor" over "almighty JT" ... It does have a nice ring tho...

BTW, I send out all my head work to an expert, who I have learned a ton from :thumb:

I hope he never replies... or just PMs each and every one of us except you :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

im sorry to say this, but its repeated argumental threads like this, that remind me of "THE OTHER FORUM".....

quit being a bunch of babies, i thought we were all here to learn from each other??? seems like its become more of a nag. shiiit i might as well be hangin with the woman right now, rather then being....a.....gazer?!? :lol:

Whoa, thems fighting words there! And I was just about to PM you about bringing soem Goose to SDAC... ;)

[black86glhs]

im sorry to say this, but its repeated argumental threads like this, that remind me of "THE OTHER FORUM".....

quit being a bunch of babies, i thought we were all here to learn from each other??? seems like its become more of a nag. shiiit i might as well be hangin with the woman right now, rather then being....a.....gazer?!? :lol:Jt is right. Those is fightin words!!!
Cory has to bring enough goose for all of us now.:amen:

[omnation]

It's like a 2 liter bottle of coke. How's the coke gonna come out faster, if you just flip it upside down and let it pour straight out, or give it a little swirl

Swirling the bottle would allow the coke to come out faster because it creates a vortex with a void in the center. The void in the center allows air to enter the bottle to replace the space that was previously taken up by the Coke, reducing the amount of vacuum in the bottle, and allowing gravity to do its job more efficiently.



Just because the words vacuum and efficiency are involved doesn't mean it pertains to an intake/exhaust port in any way.:confused:

[moparzrule]

Swirling the bottle would allow the coke to come out faster because it creates a vortex with a void in the center. The void in the center allows air to enter the bottle to replace the space that was previously taken up by the Coke, reducing the amount of vacuum in the bottle, and allowing gravity to do its job more efficiently.



Just because the words vacuum and efficiency are involved doesn't mean it pertains to an intake/exhaust port in any way.:confused:

Even if you poked holes to allow air in, swirling the bottle would allow the coke to come out faster.

There's more to it than that anyway. But tilting the roof, the correct way, shoots the air/fuel toward the center of the chamber instead of staying along the side.

[black86glhs]

Even if you poked holes to allow air in, swirling the bottle would allow the coke to come out faster.

There's more to it than that anyway. But tilting the roof, the correct way, shoots the air/fuel toward the center of the chamber instead of staying along the side.
I placed a sheet metal ramp right before the vlave and it creates the D.O.H.(Dukes of Hazzard) effect. The air jumps right into the chamber for mad power!!!!!!

[cordes]

I placed a sheet metal ramp right before the vlave and it creates the D.O.H.(Dukes of Hazzard) effect. The air jumps right into the chamber for mad power!!!!!!

Good one.