8V, PT+Beehives: Ti Retainers?

[janus]

Hi guys,

i'm currently rebuilding/bulletproofing my valvetrain with some fresh MP PT lifters, shims from the pope, 26995 beehive springs and currently doing research about possible retainers.

first off, in the long run i'll try to reach something in the 250+whp range with my 92 2.5l T1, i'm guessing i'll probably end up with a tbi roller or if funds allow an aftermarket like an F2 or S1 cam. now i'm pretty sure this is still within the limit for most people to say no need to spend money on the Ti retainers (sorry no offense). but i guess i just want them while i'm at the valvetrain already :D

so.. with the 26995 beehives, which LS1 Ti retainers can i use? i did some "research" on summit and came up with the following data:

the beehive springs are 1.065 in. OD and 0.650 in. ID at top.
so, do they require a retainer of min. 1.065in OD and max. 0.650 ID?
did i get that right? or is it more a thing of direct fit, ie you need a retainer that is exactely 1.065/0.65?

anyways, some comp cams 7° Ti retainers for comparison:

CCA-754: 1.250 in. OD / .610 in. ID
+ 0.860 in. OD of middle spring for duals
"Will work with single or dual springs. GM Gen III with stock springs."
looks to be a stock replacement for LS1, but would it fit the beehives as well?
because of the 1.25 OD, i guess these are a bit heaver than other TI retainers..

CCA-762: 1.055 in. OD / .640 in. ID
"Works with springs CCA-26915 or CCA-26918." (and it says used for 5.7L chrysler :D) 26918 beehives: 1.055 in. OD / 0.650 in. ID at top and overall a bit smaller than our 26995s

CCA-772: 1.055 in. OD / .640 in. ID
"Designed for use with CCA-26915 or CCA-26918 valve springs on Gen III engines." LS1 with 26918 the "smaller" beehive springs (see above)

and for reference, the CCA-774 steel retainers some of us are using (i believe?):
CCA-774: 1.055 in. OD, .640 in. ID
same as 772 safe for material.

soooooo.. :bump2: anyone got some specs of retainers they're running with the beehives!? :thumb:

thanks in advance for any hints or comments,
greetz
Andi

[janus]

come on guys, don't be shy! someone gotta know this stuff, or at least be able to post some numbers of their currently used ls1 retainers

P.S.
forgot to tell you, i found out that even the "bigger" dual spring-capable CCA-754's are only 4 ounces per set of 16, so that makes it like 7.09 gram per retainer.. anyone ever weighed one of our 8V stock retainers?

[BadAssPerformance]

For a 250whp setup I wouldnt worry about using anything facier than a stock valvetrain hardware... Yes it may help, but I am not sure there is not enough power to be had for the amount of work you have to do. I say this mostly because of the smaller cams that you mentioned. If you were going to an S60 cam or something I would just say to get the FM springs, but thats a lot bigger than what you are looking for.

What else do you have done with it? For 250whp, 3" exhaust, 42pph injectors, AFPR, some sort of intercooler, 18-20psi... stock head and cam even...

[janus]

i broke a camshaft so that's why i'm now rebuilding my valvetrain with better parts. sure, as said the ti are probably overkill, but i'm definately going to use PTs etc. and i was interested in experiences people who where using pt beehives and Ti would have to share with us. if anybody is actually running them, lol

just trying to eliminate any parastic losses in the run.. i would like to get a rather high output per psi and low boost performance..

[GLHNSLHT2]

I used the 774's and for locks the 628's. I thought about getting the Ti's but the chromoly's are pretty light and I couldn't really justify the price for Ti retainers. The car sings above 3500 and I've wacked the 7200rpm rev limiter a couple times on accident. I couldn't imagine the Ti's helping too much. I have 8 retainers and I think 8 locks too that I don't plan on using. These springs/locks/retainers along with some PT lifters should be stock :) I drive down the freeway in 3rd gear at 70+ just to hear the motor sing sometimes :)

[BadAssPerformance]

i broke a camshaft so that's why i'm now rebuilding my valvetrain with better parts. sure, as said the ti are probably overkill, but i'm definately going to use PTs etc. and i was interested in experiences people who where using pt beehives and Ti would have to share with us. if anybody is actually running them, lol

just trying to eliminate any parastic losses in the run.. i would like to get a rather high output per psi and low boost performance..

How did the stock valve springs break the cam? :confused2:

Yes it is good to eliminate parasitic losses throughout the system... but if you have any kind of a budget, the stuff you are doing is usually at the end of the list... a few of us making ~250whp on stock long blocks.

[DaveSkrab]

I have to agree with JT here, 2.5 long block, with a Good intercooler, 2.5" exhaust, +20% injectors and a stock Garrett turbo. 18-20psi. This would be the simplest budget friendly way to achive the goal. Heck that's nearly the setup I have in my CSXT right now. 12-13psi boost I'd wager that mine is making 200WHP right now. We'll find out down the road.
However, if you're dead set on upgrading the valvetrain, I'd try to PM BadFastGTC. He's got quite a bit of cylinder head / valvetrain info that he may be willing to share.

Good luck with your build!

[Juggy]

How did the stock valve springs break the cam? :confused2:
.

my buddy snapped a stock cam in 1/2 in his 92 iroc 2.5 T1...pretty sure he said he had the car gassed in 5th gear doing some decent speeds...then car fell on its face :thumb:

[GLHNSLHT2]

If I ever have to rebuild a 8v head again I'm going straight to the 995's, I love mine.

[bgbmxer]

friend broke a cam in his stock turbo van. i have heard it has to do with timing belt tension

[janus]

yeah well the thing i experienced was sure caused by too tight t-belt tension, but then a rocker fell off after/while an hour of driving at 100mph+ speeds.. broke my cam between the first cyl valves and messed up my head cam bearings. only had it 1.5kmls on the road so far :( i'd rather not have something like that ever happen again, i know the t-belt tension was my fault but anyways.. i decided to spend some $$, do it once do it right kinda thing.

the 995 beehives sure seem like a very good part, i already found someone to share them with so i'm going this route. i already purchased the pt lifters as well. so now i'm looking for retainers and keepers. i might just bite and get a set of the Ti's just for kicks. that is, if i can find someone to share them with :D if anyone is interested just shoot me a pm!
if the 774 are suitable, i guess that would mean we could get either 772 or 762. need to take a look at the keepers mentioned here.

thanks for all your comments and help guys! i'll keep you posted :)

P.S. i just found that summit is also selling these retainers as singles! the p/n would be cca-772-1. they're also 10 bucks cheaper than the (16) set if you'd buy 16 of the singles lol.
the locks GLHSLNT2 (did i get that right?) specified, cca-629, only have one groove, iirc our locks/valves have like 2 or 3? also can someone confirm about the 5.5mm valve stem diameter? i'd need to go and measure otherwise :) thanks again

[Austrian Dodge]

high output per psi and low boost performance?
-> good flowing head/intake/ex. manifold or go 16V ;)

honestly, i wouldn't bother bulletproofing the valvetrain at this HP levels and a stock cam.

[inmyshadow]

You might want to lower your HP guessimate. I"d say you are pushing around 180whp with your setup.

On a FMIC, TII turbo, +40/3bar, turbo back 2.5in exhaust and 18lbs of boost got me 218whp. With a sidemount intercooler, TII, MP computer, turbo back 2.5 exhaust and 15lbs of boost got me 190whp.

Who hasn't broken a cam. I broke on 8yrs ago on my old shadow. A chrysler mechanic told the breakage is usually caused by an over tensioned timing belt. The cam was replaced. I haven't has any problems with head since then. Its been on two cars now.

I'm at the same point as janus. I'm replacing my motor this week. For valvetrain, I'm using PT lifters, MP dual spring valve springs, MP chrome moly retainers, and MP hardened keepers. After my motor is all set, I'm planning to run a more aggressive cam. But I've already stepped up to a Super60 turbo and such. Only things really left for me is a ported head and bigger cam.

later





I have to agree with JT here, 2.5 long block, with a Good intercooler, 2.5" exhaust, +20% injectors and a stock Garrett turbo. 18-20psi. This would be the simplest budget friendly way to achive the goal. Heck that's nearly the setup I have in my CSXT right now. 12-13psi boost I'd wager that mine is making 200WHP right now. We'll find out down the road.
However, if you're dead set on upgrading the valvetrain, I'd try to PM BadFastGTC. He's got quite a bit of cylinder head / valvetrain info that he may be willing to share.

Good luck with your build!

[janus]

well so far i haven't even stated my engine combo anywhere here ;)

here's what i'll be starting with in the near future:
3" exhaust incl. SV
rebuilt '89 garrett TII
ported exhaust manifold
ebay FMIC 2.5" I/O
FWIW, upgraded valvetrain + tbi roller
walbro 255
AFPR (still need one)
13-14psi

here's what i plan/need to add in the longer run
custom / vendor cal + injectors
ported or custom intake
mild head port work
maybe a better cam & bigger turbo

any opinions on where these mods would approximately take me?
hmm, i guess the thread name is not really appropriate any more ;) anyways, i think you guys do a good job putting ti retainers off the list :p i'll take chromemoly ones into consideration, but if funds allow i'll end up getting ti ones.

i'm taking this build step by step, so yes i do still have the long block in its stock form. and yes, i will be paying attention to AFR and knocks ;) and if it really blows then it's finally time to throw some forged slugs in lol

[GLHNSLHT2]

Yeah you can't use the locks/keepers I use because I have custom Manley valves from Steve Menegon.


yeah well the thing i experienced was sure caused by too tight t-belt tension, but then a rocker fell off after/while an hour of driving at 100mph+ speeds.. broke my cam between the first cyl valves and messed up my head cam bearings. only had it 1.5kmls on the road so far :( i'd rather not have something like that ever happen again, i know the t-belt tension was my fault but anyways.. i decided to spend some $$, do it once do it right kinda thing.

the 995 beehives sure seem like a very good part, i already found someone to share them with so i'm going this route. i already purchased the pt lifters as well. so now i'm looking for retainers and keepers. i might just bite and get a set of the Ti's just for kicks. that is, if i can find someone to share them with :D if anyone is interested just shoot me a pm!
if the 774 are suitable, i guess that would mean we could get either 772 or 762. need to take a look at the keepers mentioned here.

thanks for all your comments and help guys! i'll keep you posted :)

P.S. i just found that summit is also selling these retainers as singles! the p/n would be cca-772-1. they're also 10 bucks cheaper than the (16) set if you'd buy 16 of the singles lol.
the locks GLHSLNT2 (did i get that right?) specified, cca-629, only have one groove, iirc our locks/valves have like 2 or 3? also can someone confirm about the 5.5mm valve stem diameter? i'd need to go and measure otherwise :) thanks again

[ssheen]

I was looking at Ti retainers as well. Since I have them sitting here. :) I did have some springs to run with them, but have since changed plans and I am looking at possibly going with a bit less seat pressure than what the springs I had, give.

[janus]

thanks for all the people chiming in here! anyone know what these GM GenIII (LS1/3100 V6) retainers weigh? the 772 retainers are only 4.5grams each, which seems really light even for a titanium retainer.

glhnshlt2: hah okay, that makes things different of course ;)

ssheen: hmm, which exact springs and retainers have you been (planning on) using? do you still have the other half of that (16) set of ti's? :)

[GLHNSLHT2]

4.5 grams does seem awfully light as my Bic pen weighs 4.95 grams. A Sharpie Marker weighs in at almost 10 grams. I need to grab my spare chromoly retainers down and weigh them.

[janus]

that'd be great, thanks in advance :) maybe you could also weigh the stock ones for comparison..

[GLHNSLHT2]

oh I'll see if I can dig up some stock ones, not sure I have any though.

[janus]

okay we got some weight #'s. (thank you Don (4cefedomni))
stock retainers: 25.5 g
3100 v6 retainers: 11g
772 Ti retainers: 4.5g
hmm... :rolleyes:

[GLHNSLHT2]

comp cams 774's are 12.05g. heh kinda wish I had gotten the Ti's if they're really 4.5g. Oh well.

[bgbmxer]

id like to know more about making pt lifters work? what all is involved? or is there a post for this already. and what year/engine lifters

[Juggy]

okay we got some weight #'s. (thank you Don (4cefedomni))
stock retainers: 25.5 g
3100 v6 retainers: 11g
772 Ti retainers: 4.5g
hmm... :rolleyes:

does this mean that the stock retainer simon is selling for the 995 spring, is LIGHTER then the comp cam chromoly one?

[Juggy]

id like to know more about making pt lifters work? what all is involved? or is there a post for this already. and what year/engine lifters


PT was made in 2000...so any 2000+ lifter for the 2.4 dohc works.

just buy the MP 4 pack....it ends in 440....thats all i remember lol

PT's work but u have to shim them.

[bgbmxer]

PT was made in 2000...so any 2000+ lifter for the 2.4 dohc works.

just buy the MP 4 pack....it ends in 440....thats all i remember lol

PT's work but u have to shim them.

how much thats my question basicaly. and i will get some from the yard since i can get them for free most times

[GLHNSLHT2]

it's like .120 or so. Just get the shims from "The Pope"

[GLHNSLHT2]

does this mean that the stock retainer simon is selling for the 995 spring, is LIGHTER then the comp cam chromoly one?

Looks that way, but for 1 gram difference eh... Price is the same IIRC.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I have a question. Can I swap in Ti's and take out my chromoly's without having to have the install height changed or some other head process done?

[bgbmxer]

PT was made in 2000...so any 2000+ lifter for the 2.4 dohc works.

just buy the MP 4 pack....it ends in 440....thats all i remember lol

PT's work but u have to shim them.

i got some lifters out of a 2.4 stratus today. should be the same as the pt right?

[GLHNSLHT2]

long as they have a bleed hole in the top.

[bgbmxer]

long as they have a bleed hole in the top.

is this what you mean by the top??http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj17/bgbmxer/P5210379.jpg

[GLHNSLHT2]

no in the tip where the follower sits.

[Juggy]

I have a question. Can I swap in Ti's and take out my chromoly's without having to have the install height changed or some other head process done?


they should be the EXACT same retainer, just different material, so in that case, id say your golden :thumb:

if u swap to Ti ill go 1/2ers with you on a set...they are 236 for 16 right now @ summit

[bgbmxer]

no in the tip where the follower sits.

i dont remeber the stock ones in my 8 valve head having a hole in the top?

[GLHNSLHT2]

no sh!t why do you think the PT lifters are an upgrade? Cause they have a bleed valve in the top to let air that gets into the oil out. So they stay pumped up. :)

[bgbmxer]

no sh!t why do you think the PT lifters are an upgrade? Cause they have a bleed valve in the top to let air that gets into the oil out. So they stay pumped up. :)

no one tells me these things wtf lol. guess i gotta go back to the yard and get different ones good thing these were free

[GLHNSLHT2]

they should be the EXACT same retainer, just different material, so in that case, id say your golden :thumb:

if u swap to Ti ill go 1/2ers with you on a set...they are 236 for 16 right now @ summit

Cory that'd be great but they're cheaper to buy them individually :)

[rbryant]

Man all of this talk for years and I don't think I have even seen a picture of an assembled head with this setup...

Does anyone have a picture of a head ready to go with the beehives?

-Rich

[GLHNSLHT2]

need to open your eyes a bit, http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=3074 That's mine that has been running for about a year now. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30889&page=13 post 245 has pics of the motor Terry Ryan is putting together in his push for a 10 second minivan :) I think Bubba? here has Beehives in his setup too.
I love mine. The engine just sings the higher the revs go.

[GLHNSLHT2]

need to open your eyes a bit, http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=3074 That's mine that has been running for about a year now. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30889&page=13 post 245 has pics of the motor Terry Ryan is putting together in his push for a 10 second minivan :) I think Bubba? here has Beehives in his setup too.
I love mine. The engine just sings the higher the revs go.

[turbovanman²]

okay we got some weight #'s. (thank you Don (4cefedomni))
stock retainers: 25.5 g
3100 v6 retainers: 11g
772 Ti retainers: 4.5g
hmm... :rolleyes:

I guess he wrote down the numbers when we weighed the 3100 retainers and stockers, ;)

[badandy]

I look at things like titanium retainers like this:

If you have to get new retainers anyway (which you do for beehives) than sure, if you have the extra money spring for them and never give it another thought.

I wouldn't just go and replace retainers with Titianium in hopes of any added edge. Just do what makes you happy...if you get the cool factor and piece of mind out of knowing it doesn't get any better than it's worth it.

...and as far as beehives go

I bought a set of 16 and sent 8 to tyler for my new cylinder head...and out of curiousity I put 8 in my CSX-T with 150,000 (I think). The car gained 2 to 3 lbs. of boost. Now, granted...new fresh stock springs would have had the same results right? My point is that everyone always will tell you stock springs for a stock cam...but maybe they should suggest *new* stock springs for a stock cam;)

Ahhh...screw it...it's just money right fellas?

[Juggy]

how did the car gain 2-3 psi boost with just a valve spring change???

i cant really see it happening unless it was all due to the forces of nature and weather.

[GLHNSLHT2]

notice anything else besides a boost gain?

[GLHNSLHT2]

how did the car gain 2-3 psi boost with just a valve spring change???

i cant really see it happening unless it was all due to the forces of nature and weather.

Maybe because the springs aren't bouncing off the seats? :confused2:

[badandy]

how did the car gain 2-3 psi boost with just a valve spring change???

i cant really see it happening unless it was all due to the forces of nature and weather.

Valve float ;)

[badandy]

notice anything else besides a boost gain?
It just seemed to sound better and rev more smoothly.

[BadAssPerformance]

Sure you had the cam in right with the stock springs? ;)

[badandy]

Sure you had the cam in right with the stock springs? ;)
Oh yeah maybe it was in backwards:p Okay, seriously, I never had the cam out of the head, just the head off the car.

[turbovanman²]

how did the car gain 2-3 psi boost with just a valve spring change???

i cant really see it happening unless it was all due to the forces of nature and weather.

Valves with weak springs can be forced open under boost or flutter off the seat, I had an issue running the 3.3 springs, put some stiffer ones in, picked up boost.

[Juggy]

cool never thought about it like that....but ya i guess a weak spring could vent boost off.

my buddy cant get more then 18 psi this year, nothing changed in his setup....am thinkin his springs are done. head is really noisy anyways.....guess we'll see how she runs with the new head that will be going on b4 sdac

[janus]

guys, i'm really looking forward to putting all this onto my head and run that thing! :)

btw is there some way to check the rocker arms? or, generally, are there any opinions against using our old stockers?

[cordes]

guys, i'm really looking forward to putting all this onto my head and run that thing! :)

btw is there some way to check the rocker arms? or, generally, are there any opinions against using our old stockers?

I am not aware of another option other than the stock followers. Just make sure the bearings turn freely and feel fairly smooth as you turn them.

[janus]

well, i just found that summit is indeed offering the 772 as individuals, but they're out of stock and the back-order takes them 3-4 weeks :( anybody ready to split up a (16) set? lol

[janus]

well well.. should have waited those 3-4 weeks back then. i went halfers with JUGGY and still haven't got neither my share of 8 nor an answer. sorry for bumping this old thread but this is bugging me since these Ti retainers were NOT cheap (i paid them and got nothing).

[turbovanman²]

Still? Did you get a tracking number?

[4cefedomni]

thats $hitty!
I feel like the regulars on t-m are almost friends and in some cases are friends and it sucks to hear that a regular is screwing you.

[puppet]

Valves with weak springs can be forced open under boost or flutter off the seat, I had an issue running the 3.3 springs, put some stiffer ones in, picked up boost.Not saying you didn't diagnose the problem correctly but we forget the in cylinder pressure out weighs the boost pressure imposed on the valve. If you had good oil pressure chances are more likely that you lofted the valves and/or they were bouncing on the seats due to weak springs ... if that was the case. Both of these issues due to the HLA and weak spring combo. Too stiff a spring is going to inhibit HLA pump up too though. Put in too much spring and you won't have all the power a cam is ground for.

Something to think about.

[GLHNSLHT2]

simon didn't shim the 3.3 springs so they had crap for seat pressure. That's why if you're gonna run beehives you want the 26995's. 1.700" installed height, same open/closed pressures as the MP061 springs, ability to run bigger cams than a turbo dodge will likley ever see.

[The Pope]

when you go to a machine shop they take old conicals and throw them in a box to get reused. The regular old style springs always go in the trash. The main reason I did the shimmed 3.3s the first time around is because my brand new turbo springs with 5,000 miles with a lot over 6,000 RPM broke down. The spring rate at open varied over 40 lbs, only 2 springs were at spec... Even the shimmed 3.3 spring is nice when it continues to have the right seat pressure for years to come with boost. The 26995s have also come down in cost almost $100 from when I bought mine when they first came out....

[turbovanman²]

simon didn't shim the 3.3 springs so they had crap for seat pressure. That's why if you're gonna run beehives you want the 26995's. 1.700" installed height, same open/closed pressures as the MP061 springs, ability to run bigger cams than a turbo dodge will likley ever see.

Hahhaaa, I love this. The Pope made no mention of shimming the 3.3's when he first brought it up, so I never bothered to shim them as he didn't. In hindsight, I'd buy brand new springs, the proper ones, not shimming a spring that's not right.

[janus]

got no tracking number (was sent in an envelope, assuming it really was sent which i still have no proof of). right now i'm considering purchasing another 8 of those Ti retainers out of my own pocket, so if you read this Juggy speak up.. sorry for the flaming guys! i did the same deal on a set of beehive springs with 4cefedomnis (Don, right?) and it worked out very well.

agreed on what Jay said :) keep on rollin..

edit: oops, didn't notice page 4.. simon, :lol: ;)
pope did you read the thread over at TD about the angles and, more importantly, stem sizes of the LT/GMV6 retainers & locks?

[4cefedomni]

got no tracking number (was sent in an envelope, assuming it really was sent which i still have no proof of). right now i'm considering purchasing another 8 of those Ti retainers out of my own pocket, so if you read this Juggy speak up.. sorry for the flaming guys! i did the same deal on a set of beehive springs with 4cefedomnis (Don, right?) and it worked out very well.

agreed on what Jay said :) keep on rollin..

edit: oops, didn't notice page 4.. simon, :lol: ;)
pope did you read the thread over at TD about the angles and, more importantly, stem sizes of the LT/GMV6 retainers & locks?

What happened with this?

[janus]

ordered new retainers at summit last week and cory got in contact with me after i posted something about this in his current FS thread :evil: maybe i can work out something with him, but not too confident about this.

[4cefedomni]

I saw his current for sale thread, thats what promted the question. Hopefully everything gets resolved

[Juggy]

self inflicted buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrnn

[turbovanman²]

self inflicted buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrnn

What did you do? Not ship them? :(

[The Pope]

Hahhaaa, I love this. The Pope made no mention of shimming the 3.3's when he first brought it up, so I never bothered to shim them as he didn't. In hindsight, I'd buy brand new springs, the proper ones, not shimming a spring that's not right.

I did bring it up, I also made it a point to say how to shim them for bind at .480" and have said for ever that you can't run over a .460" lift cam or stock with them. This was back in what, 05? From then to about this year every conical thread mentioning the 995s you've told people they don't want them because they need shims.

I wonder if your still thinking a 3.3 spring and a 995 spring are the same spring?

[turbovanman²]

I did bring it up, I also made it a point to say how to shim them for bind at .480" and have said for ever that you can't run over a .460" lift cam or stock with them. This was back in what, 05? From then to about this year every conical thread mentioning the 995s you've told people they don't want them because they need shims.

I wonder if your still thinking a 3.3 spring and a 995 spring are the same spring?

I never said ANYTHING about the 955's, this is about the 3.3's and NO, no mention of shimming when first brought up. Either way, do it right or don't bother. I should have questioned the rather wimpy spring rates but didn't bother, my fault, not yours but either way, the 955's ARE the way to go, not a shimmed 3.3 spring, new or used.

[The Pope]

pope did you read the thread over at TD about the angles and, more importantly, stem sizes of the LT/GMV6 retainers & locks?

All of the Chevy retainers are metric and 8mm. The LS1 also uses a 8mm single groove lock.

The problem is you can't get the 4 groove lock at the LS1 retainer angle in 8mm, I found them in 5/16" but they of course don't fit perfect.

I did post up all of the matching 8 degree keepers and retainers and spring part numbers. But if you run stock valves you have to run a 5/16 keeper on the exhaust valve. At this point there is only one person running stock valves, 3.3 springs and the origanal setup. And he has ran the setup since 05 without a problem.

Today any one adding conical beehives are all adding the better spring and everyone doing it is doing single groove SS valves. So the issue with the stock exhaust valve isn't a big issue.

There has been many looking for the right part numbers for the valve train, keepers, retainers and springs so I posted them up. There are some small block Ford springs that fit, but there not made for the shorter installed height and will bind sooner like a 3.3 spring. Thought I would throw that one in there since were on the subject.

[The Pope]

I never said ANYTHING about the 955's, this is about the 3.3's and NO, no mention of shimming when first brought up. Either way, do it right or don't bother. I should have questioned the rather wimpy spring rates but didn't bother, my fault, not yours but either way, the 955's ARE the way to go, not a shimmed 3.3 spring, new or used.

There is almost no difference between a stock turbo spring and a 3.3 installed right. So to say they are way different is out right lying. And how many run a stock turbo spring?

955 springs?

The first 3.3 springs ever used were shimmed from the go so I don't know where you come up with that either :confused2: They were installed to stock turbo spec (close to) and have more seat and open pressure vs used stock springs with miles on them. After 5000 miles the 3.3s have up to 30 lbs more seat pressure than 1/3-1/2 of the stock turbo springs when used at high RPM. Again 4 year old info at least and the reason I added 3.3 springs at the time.:thumb:

I do agree that everyone should go all the way and get the whole Comp valve train. The 3.3 spring was for those in the past that believed $30 for springs was WAY too much to be spending. And back then in the days of super cheap they were nice, people today would just rather spend a few bucks for the best.

[janus]

Today any one adding conical beehives are all adding the better spring and everyone doing it is doing single groove SS valves. So the issue with the stock exhaust valve isn't a big issue.
Rob, which exact SS valves are you talking about here? I'm currently running stock valves but looking to upgrade soon (at the same time i install the 995 beehives, 772 Ti retainers and 623 locks and get some porting done :)).

[The Pope]

Rob, which exact SS valves are you talking about here? I'm currently running stock valves but looking to upgrade soon (at the same time i install the 995 beehives, 772 Ti retainers and 623 locks and get some porting done :)).

There are lots of different SS valves out there. I run Mopar now, but they are the cheap ones not the best ones. Go anywhere but FM for valves, they grind down valves and use lash caps :yuck:

As for a bit of info from Mopar Performance which I find intresting as I was just looking through an old catalog. On page 19 they show the valves as 8mm, then on page 20 they show the retainers are 5/16". Then in the notes they say.

NOTE: 8 degree refers to the included angle for the 2 locks which is actually between 7 and 8.

This is on page 20 in the 1997 catalog for those looking to check this. This isn't a typo as it is a whole sentence describing one thing. Makes the whole issue of locks moot when Mopar appears to have made our stock locks bi sexual. :D

[turbovanman²]

There is almost no difference between a stock turbo spring and a 3.3 installed right. So to say they are way different is out right lying. And how many run a stock turbo spring?



Almost EVERYONE runs a stock turbo spring. :confused:

This is the specs on a used 3.3 using the stock turbo spring shim- Seat pressure is 60, stock is 105. Open are the same, around 160-170 lbs and I was experiencing boost loss with them, I changed to a stronger spring, and it ran better and the boost changed, can't remember which way but it proved the Conical 3.3's were being blown open at higher boost.

[The Pope]

Almost EVERYONE runs a stock turbo spring. :confused:

This is the specs on a used 3.3 using the stock turbo spring shim- Seat pressure is 60, stock is 105. Open are the same, around 160-170 lbs and I was experiencing boost loss with them, I changed to a stronger spring, and it ran better and the boost changed, can't remember which way but it proved the Conical 3.3's were being blown open at higher boost.

All you did was prove that not following directions ends up with a FAIL. Like adding PTs without the right shim and complaining they don't work :clap:

The 3.3s and the turbo springs end up real close to the same open and closed rate as a stock turbo spring, done right. Just like the PTs end up at stock height, done right. Done right the 3.3s work great with stock roller cams, which most still run. This is all 5 year old news that hasn't changed :closed_2:

[TheCanadian007]

Questions for you guys! The conical valve springs are found in the Chrysler 3.3L V6 used in Intrepids and Minivans, correct? Grab 8 springs along with the spacer underneath them and that's all that is required?

I'm having issues tracking down the Camaro valve spring retainers. GM wants $5.85 a piece and Part Source / Canadian Tire don't stock them. What's the list price at the dealer down South? Anyone want to be a dear and grab a set of 8 for me? :thumb:

Finally, I picked up 8 MP PT lifters. What are the specs on the washers? Inside/outside diameter? Thickness? Regular or Hardened steel?

Mucho Appreaciated!

Cheers, TheCanadian

[zin]

I'll have to do some reading, seems like some neat info here...

Mike

[turbovanman²]

Questions for you guys! The conical valve springs are found in the Chrysler 3.3L V6 used in Intrepids and Minivans, correct? Grab 8 springs along with the spacer underneath them and that's all that is required?

I'm having issues tracking down the Camaro valve spring retainers. GM wants $5.85 a piece and Part Source / Canadian Tire don't stock them. What's the list price at the dealer down South? Anyone want to be a dear and grab a set of 8 for me? :thumb:

Finally, I picked up 8 MP PT lifters. What are the specs on the washers? Inside/outside diameter? Thickness? Regular or Hardened steel?

Mucho Appreaciated!

Cheers, TheCanadian

I wouldn't bother with the 3.3 springs, too weak before full valve lift.

I can most likely get you some retainers, I'll check.

Shim specs, here-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4206&highlight=lifter

[TheCanadian007]

Another user chimed in for the valve retainers. That being the case, what valve springs are an inexpensive option? Are the 3.3L conical valve springs better than 20 year old stock ones?