Starting issues after the car has run for a while

[minigts]

Well I got my car running a couple of weeks ago adding a two piece intake mainly. There weren't any real modifications made other than the fuel rail. For some reason I can start the car fine when it's relatively cold, but once it heats up and been driven for a bit, if I turn it off, let it sit for about 5-10 minutes, it really has a hard time cranking. It will turn over and act like it will crank, but doesn't fire up like it does when I start it cold.

Once it does get started, it runs fine and I have 10lbs of boost consistently as I drive. There are no problems stopping at red lights, slowing down, speeding up or anything. But if I turn it off, leave it for a short period of time and then try and start it, it just really doesn't want to fire. I'm thinking it's electrical at some level. I can definitely hear the pump prime on the first two key turns and I made sure the ground to the fuel rail was secured where the fuel injector harness is grounded to the intake. Like I said, it will eventually crank but it takes a good number of tries. When it tries to start, it kinda sputters and if push the gas pedal at the right time, I can get it running.

Anyone have ideas on where to look for the issue? Timing is set correctly and I adjusted the fuel pressure to 55psi. I also was trying to mess with the idle set screw, but that didn't seem to make a difference. The only other thing I may check is the gasket for the throttle body to ensure it's on correctly.

[Juggy]

hey man, i got a TU rail isntalled too....my car has a hard time tryin to idle when rolling, i have to tap the gas otherwise it will stall out. runs mint tho other then that.

i upgrade to -6 line from tank to regulator tho, im thinking i got all this new found fuel and it needs to be turned down a little rather then keeping it stock.

was gonna ask if you prime b4 start, yes i always do the double prime too.

uuuuummmmmmmm maybe its getting weak spark? from a hot coil?

[minigts]

hey man, i got a TU rail isntalled too....my car has a hard time tryin to idle when rolling, i have to tap the gas otherwise it will stall out. runs mint tho other then that.

i upgrade to -6 line from tank to regulator tho, im thinking i got all this new found fuel and it needs to be turned down a little rather then keeping it stock.

was gonna ask if you prime b4 start, yes i always do the double prime too.

uuuuummmmmmmm maybe its getting weak spark? from a hot coil?

Well here's the deal. I don't think it's the rail, because I can start it cold, no pressure on the gauge I have on the rail and when it primes, I get like 20 psi. It will start with just that and idle ok. I tried cleaning out the AIS piece and the area around it. So far it hasn't had a problem adjusting the idle, but I can tell it's running rich. That may have something to do with it on start, but I have no clue if it would.

Maybe I need to get the computer calibrated for the 2 piece? The coil could be bad, but I'm thinking it's ok. That could be it, but having just replaced it, I'm going to hold off on buying a second for testing.

[cordes]

If anything I would think that a 2 piece cal would make it run richer at idle than a 1 piece cal.

[minigts]

Well I have the 1 piece cal and when I checked the exhaust smell, it was VERY rich. I don't have a lean/rich gauge installed right now, but even if I did, it would be a narrow band one, which wouldn't tell me more than what my nose would. :)

[cordes]

That's interesting. Does it only run that rich at certain water temps?

[minigts]

Hmm, not sure. I haven't really done a whole lot of investigating other than the basics. I can tell it is running rough at idle though. It kinda thumps whereas before it was purring or humming. Maybe it can/will learn how to idle correctly? Is that possible?

It has the same distributor, cap, rotor, plugs, etc. I have checked the timing on it like 3 times when I got it running and it runs great when cruising, just not at idle. If I am still having issues at SDAC, maybe someone can help. ;) Need to get my computer re calibrated anyways.

[cordes]

The idle may smooth out, especially if you haven't driven it much yet.

I would be hard to make improvements cal wise for your car if you don't have a WB O2 in the car yet. Those make all the difference.

ETA: Perhaps someone will have one of the portable inovate deals with them though.

[WLKivett]

Sounds like vapor lock to me?

[minigts]

The idle may smooth out, especially if you haven't driven it much yet.

I would be hard to make improvements cal wise for your car if you don't have a WB O2 in the car yet. Those make all the difference.

ETA: Perhaps someone will have one of the portable inovate deals with them though.

Well, we will see. It drives fine when cruising and it will idle, just seems rich.


Sounds like vapor lock to me?

I've heard that doesn't happen with our cars, but I guess it could be. If my problem is what symptoms of vapor lock are like, how do I correct this? I have that line that used to go to the charcoal canister open in the engine bay, but with most of the guys on here that is the norm.

[badandy]

Jon,

What's up buddy? I believe I have your answer because I had the same exact problem...and I believe some of the others may not have expierenced it depending on if they have a remote regulator or not (excessive lines to prime/pressure up)....anyway...onto what I experienced and how i fixed it.

I upgraded to a 2 piece and a TU fuel rail with an external accufab regulator on the passenger side strut tower. That being said there is the extra volume of the fuel rail as well as the volume of the -6 line running out the drivers side of the rail and maiking it's way over to the regulator....quite a bit of volume to fill right? (as compared to stock).

My car...like yours would fire cold...but it would slightly sputter as if the fuel was puddling (not enough pressure). Warm? fogetaboutit! What little bit did prime (stock fuel rail volume remember?) instantly got hot and would boil. The car would fire if I messed with the accelerator...and sometimes without...but it would chug and carry on...belch black smoke...etc.

Answer:

Go into your cal and up your starting prime pulse width. I had to triple mine if I remember correctly. I can copy/paste a screen shot of the table if you need me too. You need to pressurize the new rail and let the volume of fuel cool things back down so the fuel doesn't boil and vaporize and you have proper fuel pressure to get a good start prime.

Hope this helps!

[minigts]

Jon,

What's up buddy? I believe I have your answer because I had the same exact problem...and I believe some of the others may not have expierenced it depending on if they have a remote regulator or not (excessive lines to prime/pressure up)....anyway...onto what I experienced and how i fixed it.

I upgraded to a 2 piece and a TU fuel rail with an external accufab regulator on the passenger side strut tower. That being said there is the extra volume of the fuel rail as well as the volume of the -6 line running out the drivers side of the rail and maiking it's way over to the regulator....quite a bit of volume to fill right? (as compared to stock).

My car...like yours would fire cold...but it would slightly sputter as if the fuel was puddling (not enough pressure). Warm? fogetaboutit! What little bit did prime (stock fuel rail volume remember?) instantly got hot and would boil. The car would fire if I messed with the accelerator...and sometimes without...but it would chug and carry on...belch black smoke...etc.

Answer:

Go into your cal and up your starting prime pulse width. I had to triple mine if I remember correctly. I can copy/paste a screen shot of the table if you need me too. You need to pressurize the new rail and let the volume of fuel cool things back down so the fuel doesn't boil and vaporize and you have proper fuel pressure to get a good start prime.

Hope this helps!


Hey man! Thanks for the post and at some level of my intelligence and understanding of how all this stuff works, I understand and can see what you're saying making sense. Unfortunately I can't calibrate my own SMEC right now, so I will have to wait until I get to SDAC or until I get a burner, software and some low level of intelligence to actually program it. :p

Right now I'm 95% going to SDAC, but there is a "?" out there as I SHOULD be starting back to work soon and I may be traveling that week. Hopefully I won't, but depending on what the need is for me at work, I may. :(

You going, btw?

[badandy]

Hey man! Thanks for the post and at some level of my intelligence and understanding of how all this stuff works, I understand and can see what you're saying making sense. Unfortunately I can't calibrate my own SMEC right now, so I will have to wait until I get to SDAC or until I get a burner, software and some low level of intelligence to actually program it. :p

Right now I'm 95% going to SDAC, but there is a "?" out there as I SHOULD be starting back to work soon and I may be traveling that week. Hopefully I won't, but depending on what the need is for me at work, I may. :(

You going, btw?

Yup! I'll be there. I can help you out there if someone has a burner and chips...or anyone else with the ability can easily help you out.

In the meantime, for a test jump a wire from your + battery post to the + of the coil and let the pump run enought to pressurize the rail...then go start...or just cylce your key a BUNCH until you see pressure at the rail...and give it a whirl to see if that's the issue.

[cordes]

The only thing I don't like about adjusting that table is that you are adjusting the prime shot rather than the actual time the pump primes. Kind of a band aid fix IMO. I wish I could find out how to make the pump prime for a longer period of time. I think there are enough of us with this problem that we need to find a true fix.

Adjusting that table will work though.

[turboshad]

Possibly a bit ghetto but in true TD fashion, try using a "turn off pop eliminator" that can be used for car amplifiers. It will extend a signal once it is turned off so you could use it on the the signal going to your fuel pump relay. Just set it for a couple seconds and it should extend your prime by that much. It will also hold the signal when you turn the car off but the relay should be ignition powered so that shouldn't cause an issue. I use one on my starter as a turbo timer since I got the version before an internal timer was available.

Like the N-68 on this page. Mine is adjustable up to 90 seconds though it doesn't look like this one is. You may have to look around a bit.
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?24&cat=1

DJ

[badandy]

The only thing I don't like about adjusting that table is that you are adjusting the prime shot rather than the actual time the pump primes. Kind of a band aid fix IMO. I wish I could find out how to make the pump prime for a longer period of time. I think there are enough of us with this problem that we need to find a true fix.

Adjusting that table will work though.

My pump primes for a longer period of time. Are you sure you have the right table?...also, both the pump and the pulse width have to be for longer periods of time to pressurize the added volume...so it's still the right thing to do...just half of the equation.

Now that you mention it there are two tables I adjusted. I will have to go back for a refresher.

[minigts]

Possibly a bit ghetto but in true TD fashion, try using a "turn off pop eliminator" that can be used for car amplifiers. It will extend a signal once it is turned off so you could use it on the the signal going to your fuel pump relay. Just set it for a couple seconds and it should extend your prime by that much. It will also hold the signal when you turn the car off but the relay should be ignition powered so that shouldn't cause an issue. I use one on my starter as a turbo timer since I got the version before an internal timer was available.

Like the N-68 on this page. Mine is adjustable up to 90 seconds though it doesn't look like this one is. You may have to look around a bit.
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?24&cat=1

DJ

EDIT: This was meant for badandy, sorry about that. :)

What is WITH you guys and jumper wires?! LOL You and Cordes had to have gone to the same electronics store one day. ;)

I think I'll donate some money to someone at SDAC to re program my chip, if it's possible.

Here are some things I want to change.

Baro read solenoid - turn off
purge solenoid - turn off
fan relay temp - adjust to coincide with my 180 thermostat
fuel pump prime - adjust to START at warm temps

Whatever else that needs to be adjusted for idle, although it may be ok. It seemed to idle fine after I got back from driving yesterday. Still need to check it on cold start up though. I think dropping the fan relay range like 15 degrees would be good as I think the factory thermostat is like a 195? The other two I just want to disable because I don't have the wiring in the car AND I don't use those anyways. My stupid Power Loss light is on ALL THE TIME.

[cordes]

My pump primes for a longer period of time. Are you sure you have the right table?...also, both the pump and the pulse width have to be for longer periods of time to pressurize the added volume...so it's still the right thing to do...just half of the equation.

Now that you mention it there are two tables I adjusted. I will have to go back for a refresher.

I will need to take another look at that then. The last time I looked into it the table did not adjust the length of time the pump primes. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

[badandy]

I will need to take another look at that then. The last time I looked into it the table did not adjust the length of time the pump primes. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

I think you are right but it's hard for me to remember. I believe there is indeed another table but I don't have time to look oofr them right now.

[minigts]

So....WHO wants to help me program my car when I'm at SDAC? :) Seriously, I will be offering money for this. I need to get this resolved. I can't be having to pray my car starts every time I go somewhere, especially when the car has only a little time to cool down. Almost got stranded at a restaurant tonight that was busy. Went in, too crowded and left, well tried to leave. It took me about 10 minutes of waiting for the car to cool down to get going. The trip to Cincinnati is going to be SOOO much fun....

[85glht]

I have the same issue with starting the car warmed up. What I did was I bought a starter heat shield ( it is like a blanket with a reflective material on one side, good for 2000*) got it at Auto Zone. I was able to sneak it between the exhaust and intake manifolds making sure that it doesn't interfere with the wastegate. So far it has been o.k. but it hasn't been really hot here yet

[minigts]

That is a thought, but not sure if it would eliminate the problem. Honestly, I need to do it anyways just to keep the exhaust heat from raising the intake temps. I have some of that thermal blanket material. Should I wrap something with that stuff? BTW, I haven't gotten any offers with the computer programming and really need help with this at SDAC. I will pay for the time it takes. I'm not a freeloader.

[cordes]

That is a thought, but not sure if it would eliminate the problem. Honestly, I need to do it anyways just to keep the exhaust heat from raising the intake temps. I have some of that thermal blanket material. Should I wrap something with that stuff? BTW, I haven't gotten any offers with the computer programming and really need help with this at SDAC. I will pay for the time it takes. I'm not a freeloader.

Jon, there will be enough laptops and burners around the place it shouldn't be a problem. If you own a laptop, just download chem, D-cal, and TSMEC and that would make it even easier so we would only need to snag a burner for a minute. I will have chips, but if you could let me know if your SMEC is already socketed and the chips isn't just soldered in then I could bring my stuff to socket a board too. :nod:

[minigts]

I will double check to make sure it is, but 99.9999% sure it's socketed. I pulled it apart one day and I remember seeing that it was. Don't have a laptop (working), but whatever is needed to get it done I will definitely pay for.

Thanks Brian!

[minigts]

...


Answer:

Go into your cal and up your starting prime pulse width. I had to triple mine if I remember correctly. I can copy/paste a screen shot of the table if you need me too. You need to pressurize the new rail and let the volume of fuel cool things back down so the fuel doesn't boil and vaporize and you have proper fuel pressure to get a good start prime.

Hope this helps!

So I have been thinking about this for a few weeks now and have some questions about this.

Well, first my regulator is on the rail and not remote mount, so are my problems still the same as yours or would it be something else? Your original quote mentioned that yours is remote.

The next thing is, should I look to try and cool the fuel lines going back to the tank? I think a big problem I'm having (based on assumption) is that the fuel is getting hot and more of it is flowing back to the tank and heating up the rest of the fuel, which I would assume isn't a good thing.

The line I have going back to the tank is a 6AN, should it be smaller? It's what came with the rail I got, but I think it's larger than the original line that was there. Right now I have a 5/16" line going back, but I thought the return line was 1/4". Maybe that is the big problem?

Regardless, the extra time priming should help, right?

[cordes]

If everyone's thinking on this is correct, it should really boil down to a lack of pressure causing vapor lock. (pun intended) I really think we need a way to adjust the actual fuel pump prime time, but until then, the injector pulse width deal is the best we have.

[WLKivett]

Insulate.

Keep the hot side hot and the cold side cold...... just like the McDL.T.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/thumbs/mcdlt.jpg ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/mcdlt.jpg')

[minigts]

If everyone's thinking on this is correct, it should really boil down to a lack of pressure causing vapor lock. (pun intended) I really think we need a way to adjust the actual fuel pump prime time, but until then, the injector pulse width deal is the best we have.

Wait, well what determines the prime on the pump, the relay? Is there not a way to adjust the key on signal to send power for x seconds? I don't know so I'm asking. Does the relay play a part in keeping the contact closed? If so, can you get a relay that stays closed longer? (Closed to me means it's making contact, open to me means not making contact)


Insulate.

Keep the hot side hot and the cold side cold...... just like the McDL.T.

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Thanks for your contribution, but what do you know? You're just a little baby!! :)

Examples of what you've done or does anyone? I'd like to see some ideas so I can plan for this.

[cordes]

So far as I'm aware there is no way to make the pump prime for a longer duration. I don't believe that it is controlled by a relay, but I could be wrong.

What most are doing is upping the amount of fuel shot into the cyls as the engine starts to fire. That gets it spinning enough so that the cal sees the motor running and gives power to the pump which brings up the pressure.

[Gearhead24-7]

It is vapor locking. I've had this problem on every 2 piece intake I've ever used. Insulate the fuel rail from the intake. Just try it temporarily first with some tin foil or heat wrap, I bet it solves the problem.

[minigts]

It is vapor locking. I've had this problem on every 2 piece intake I've ever used. Insulate the fuel rail from the intake. Just try it temporarily first with some tin foil or heat wrap, I bet it solves the problem.

I'll try this. It would be nice to drive to Cincinnati without taking breaks after pumping the gas or stopping for food. :grrr: