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View Full Version : Minor rebuild question(s) - In car, on going thread.



85_600
04-23-2006, 02:13 AM
I might as well start this off now, even though I'm not actually starting this minor rebuild until July:o

Oh, this minor rebuild is with the block IN the car.

I'm planning this out and as it looks, the head and pistons will be out of the block for about a month.

What would I use to protect the cylinder walls from starting to rust, IF they would do this in a months time? I think I read somewhere that someone used WD-40 and sprayed the walls with it. If this is true, what effect would this have on the initial start up, if any?

Thanks,
Paul

P.S. I'm going to keep this thread going during my minor rebuild. I figure it's best to have 1 thread than a lot of little ones for each question I have.

turbovanman²
04-23-2006, 02:06 PM
Coat with engine oil, WD40 will work for a short period but its water soluble. Make you coat with oil, then duct tape the top of the block, this will almost stop any crap from getting in. You will be reringing anyhow so don't worry about it.

Turbodave
04-23-2006, 02:10 PM
Engine oil works, I've also used White lithium grease, it comes in a spray can making it easy to apply.

85_600
04-28-2006, 03:53 PM
Another small question:

After my engine is all back together, I'm not sure if the 600 will be started up that very same day or not.

Is it ok to leave a freshly put back together engine for say about a week before starting it up? If I don't have time on the day it's finally back together would it be ok to start it up and warm it up, then come back the next day or two or three for the break in period? What would be best in this case? All I'm doing is pulling the head, pan, checking and/or replacing pistons/rings/rod bearings/rod bolts, then putting everything back together.

Thanks for any and all insight!
Paul

Turbodave
04-28-2006, 06:03 PM
I've built motors and had them sit for months before first starting, shouldn't be too much trouble there as long as everything is lubed up good.

When I'm rebuilding an engine I usually prime the oil pump before I install it by turning the intermediate shaft with an air ratchet (no timing belt installed yet). Then once it's fully assembled and in the car I crank it over with the coil and injectors unhooked until I get oil pressure, then hook everything up and let it fire.

85_600
04-28-2006, 06:28 PM
Gotcha!

Even with only 46k miles on the engine, will it be necessary to remove/re-install the oil pump? I've heard and read two different stories to this so I just want to make sure I get it straight.

Thanks!
Paul

85_600
04-30-2006, 12:22 AM
Gotcha!

Even with only 46k miles on the engine, will it be necessary to remove/re-install the oil pump? I've heard and read two different stories to this so I just want to make sure I get it straight.

Thanks!
Paul

Just a :bump2:

GLHSKEN
04-30-2006, 08:10 AM
You do not need to remove the pump if no metal went through the block. You should still prime the pump though.

85_600
04-30-2006, 03:16 PM
You do not need to remove the pump if no metal went through the block. You should still prime the pump though.

So I guess once I pull the pistons I'll know for sure. This is good!

Thanks!
Paul

85_600
05-08-2006, 07:55 PM
Doing some more reading in my Haynes (:rolleyes: ) and I have a question.

Removing the timing belt - Is it really necessary to remove the crank pulley AND water pump pulley?

If so, in the Haynes, they showed that the crank pulley is held on with "torx" head bolts. Now, I'm not really a newb to tools and such but I thought torx sockets fit "into" a torx bolt. The pics show just the opposite - almost like they are a normal bolt that a socket would fit "over". I just got a set of torx sockets for Christmas (not knowing I was going to be rebuilding at this point) and thought that I was good to go.

So, what is it? Crank pulley torx bolt with a female or male head? (inny or outty). If that make sense..

Thanks,
Paul

mark
05-08-2006, 08:52 PM
they are reverse torx sockets thingies you need. you can also try and get away with a 6 point socket on them i think

Lee'sdaytona
05-08-2006, 10:21 PM
Paul, I will be going through this same process this summer, for the second time actually since someone ran 87 octane in my tank at 10psi of boost...but anyway, I can help you if you need any help.

I have a ? for you guys: What is bad about using a bar style hone? I've been told to buy/use a ball style hone....I can only find a bar style hone....
-Lee

The S is Silent
05-08-2006, 10:34 PM
The torx bolts that are on your crank pulley are the male ones. You need a torx socket. Don't try to jam a 6 point on it either...you'll probably end up rounding it off. Get the right tool, and then replace the torx bolts with oil pan bolts if you don't like the torx bolts.

cordes
05-08-2006, 10:57 PM
The torx bolts that are on your crank pulley are the male ones. You need a torx socket. Don't try to jam a 6 point on it either...you'll probably end up rounding it off. Get the right tool, and then replace the torx bolts with oil pan bolts if you don't like the torx bolts.


+1 for not using the socket on the torx bolts.

Also, you don't need to remove the water pump pully for any thing with the timing belt ever. You will probably have to remove the acessory drive belt though.

Lee'sdaytona
05-09-2006, 09:50 PM
anyone know about those bar hones?
-Lee

85_600
05-09-2006, 10:07 PM
The torx bolts that are on your crank pulley are the male ones. You need a torx socket. Don't try to jam a 6 point on it either...you'll probably end up rounding it off. Get the right tool, and then replace the torx bolts with oil pan bolts if you don't like the torx bolts.

Any idea what size of torx socket? And, while I'm at it, I thought I noticed that the oil pan bolts were torx as well. Again, what size? Or, just in general: What sizes of torx sockets will I need to work on the 600? That way I'm not scurrying around at the last minute trying to find them.

Thanks!
P

85_600
05-09-2006, 10:11 PM
On a side note: I'm half tempted to ask for some "on site" help when I'm getting everything together. I feel confident enough to take it all apart but getting everything together, well, :o

I only have a couple people that I know of close enough (5 spd mini and BIG PSI), are there any others out there relatively close to zip 44017?

This is just a thought I had and nothing is set in stone yet. Maybe I'll feel different when everything is apart.

Let the comments begin and I'll take it from there.

There would be some form of compensation. What I don't know. Maybe a pack of your fav drink, steak dinner (grilled outside the 600 :D ), IDK yet. I'll see...

dwh4784
05-09-2006, 10:43 PM
Those torx bolts are a pain, I borrowed the correct socket from a friend and replaced them with oil pan bolts like previously mentioned.

But your original question asked if you need to remove these pulleys to remove the timing belt right? No, but I don't recall if you can properly retime the engine without taking if off...it's been a long time since I had to do it that way.

Wait a second.....you say your oil pan bolts are torx also?? That's a new one to me.

85_600
05-09-2006, 11:42 PM
Wait a second.....you say your oil pan bolts are torx also?? That's a new one to me.

I "think" they are. I saw a pic here:
http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=47_49&products_id=189
and if you enlarge it that certainly looks to be torx to me.

The S is Silent
05-09-2006, 11:54 PM
I "think" they are. I saw a pic here:
http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=47_49&products_id=189
and if you enlarge it that certainly looks to be torx to me.

Those are allen head bolts. You need an allen key or a similar male allen socket to use those.

85_600
05-10-2006, 12:06 AM
Those are allen head bolts. You need an allen key or a similar male allen socket to use those.

Why?...:p Why torx and allen for bolts? Why not just make them metric or standard bolts...I know...More money to spend on our project vehicles that's why:p

(BTW: I DO have allen wrenchs. THE one "odd" tool I DO have) :thumb:

dwh4784
05-10-2006, 12:07 AM
Did you look at yours though? Mine have always been regular 10mm bolts with the occasional 13mm.

85_600
05-10-2006, 12:09 AM
Did you look at yours though? Mine have always been regular 10mm bolts with the occasional 13mm.

Not yet. I am hoping to get the 600 in the air in the next couple weeks. Then I'll be able to "slooowly" start on this project.

Are there replacement oil pan bolts that aren't allen for sale somewhere? Or would it be ok to re-use the old ones?

The S is Silent
05-10-2006, 12:20 AM
Why?...:p Why torx and allen for bolts? Why not just make them metric or standard bolts...I know...More money to spend on our project vehicles that's why:p

(BTW: I DO have allen wrenchs. THE one "odd" tool I DO have) :thumb:

But do you have metric or standard allen wrenches? My set is standard...and if I try to use them on a metric allen head bolt...it strips it out. Ask me how I know this :yuck:

As far as why...
TORX, developed by Textron Fastening Systems (formerly Camcar Textron), is the trademark for a type of screw head characterized by a 6-point star-shaped pattern (in the same way that slotted heads, Phillips, Allen, and Robertson have flat, ×-shaped, hexagonal, and square tips, respectively). People unfamiliar with the trademark generally use the term star, as in "star screwdriver" or "star bits." The generic name is hexalobular internal driving feature and is standardised by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO 10664.

By design, TORX head screws resist cam-out better than Phillips head or slot head screws. Where Phillips heads were designed to cause the driver to cam out, to prevent over-tightening, TORX heads were designed to prevent it. The reason for this was the development of better torque-limiting automatic screwdrivers for use in factories. Rather than relying on the tool slipping out of the screw head when a torque level is reached, and thereby risking damage to the driver tip, screw head and workpiece, the drivers were designed to consistently achieve a desired torque. Textron claims this can increase tool bit life by an order of magnitude, or more.

TORX screws are commonly found on automobiles, computer systems and consumer electronics, but are also becoming increasingly popular in construction. Do-it-yourself mechanics will often remove the TORX screws on a vehicle and replace them with more common screws and bolts such as hex head bolts, because it is easier to carry an adjustable wrench (or a set of hex sockets) to fit many different sizes of hex heads, rather than carrying several different sizes of TORX screwdrivers or bits. Also in offroad vehicles like Jeep, the bolt heads are subjected to rust, rendering them rather difficult to remove. When rusted bolts (or most of them for that matter) are removed manually, Torx bolts are more likely to round off compared to hex head bolts, and are thus disliked by many do-it-yourself mechanics.


hmmmm, who knew. That was from wikipedia. It's dead on about being disliked by diy'ers.

dwh4784
05-10-2006, 12:29 AM
I really doubt your car has torx already on the oil pan. You can reuse the ones you pull off, no problem.

85_600
05-10-2006, 01:47 AM
I really doubt your car has torx already on the oil pan. You can reuse the ones you pull off, no problem.

Music to my ears (or, actually, my eyes in this case :D )

Thanks for the tips guys!
P

cordes
05-11-2006, 07:57 PM
Yeah, you should have 10mm bolts holding on the oil pan, and once again, you do not have to remove any pullys to set the cam timing. Just the acessory drive belt and PS belt so that you can pull off the lower timing belt cover. If you have a non AC alt bracket it is as easy as pie to do.

85_600
05-17-2006, 06:26 PM
The "Engine Tear Down" kit from FWD - What type of head gasket comes with that kit? Is it decent?

Thanks!
Paul

The S is Silent
05-17-2006, 06:59 PM
Probably a mopar performance gasket...and if you call her she can either put a 005 or 006 in for you.

85_600
05-17-2006, 11:47 PM
Probably a mopar performance gasket...and if you call her she can either put a 005 or 006 in for you.

That's cool! I didn't know they could do this. I'll be checking :thumb:

Thanks!
P

85_600
05-17-2006, 11:49 PM
Something else that I just thought of. I have not looked to close at this to know for sure, BUT, if I'm taking the head off and the oil pan, how would I support the engine? I'm guessing I would need to since the one mount on the fender attaches to the engine - and as far as I know the head. But like I said, I have not looked into this yet. I should be seeing the 600 on Saturday so I can check then. I may even have some video of starting it up and idling, for those of you that wonder why I NEED to fix it, and the WANT to keep it :o

turbovanman²
05-18-2006, 12:02 AM
You don't need to remove the right side mount to get the head off so the engine will still hang by itself. If you replacing the timing belt, do this after you get the pan back on. You use a block of wood on a jack and hold the engine using the oil pan, undo the 2 13mm bolts on the mount and lift up the engine, remove the old belt if you didn't cut if off and slide the new belt in, lower the engine, reinstall bolts and bingo, timing belt in.

85_600
05-18-2006, 12:09 AM
You don't need to remove the right side mount to get the head off so the engine will still hang by itself. If you replacing the timing belt, do this after you get the pan back on. You use a block of wood on a jack and hold the engine using the oil pan, undo the 2 13mm bolts on the mount and lift up the engine, remove the old belt if you didn't cut if off and slide the new belt in, lower the engine, reinstall bolts and bingo, timing belt in.


You make it sound SOOooo easy...:p

Thank You!
P

turbovanman²
05-18-2006, 12:36 PM
You make it sound SOOooo easy...:p

Thank You!
P

It really is. Honestly, take lots of pics, make notes, label parts you take off. I just put together a car taken apart by Wop'r, he had everything lableled and put in zip lock bags. For me, I don't need this as I know where every nut and bolt goes on our engines, but for him, it was great. Take your time it will come. After your done, you'll be like, "that wasn't so bad" :thumb:

The hardest part for me, is the tuning, and making it all work when your going for high HP. 3 years and I am finally reaching my goals. Have patience, if I listed all I have done, fixed, broken, replaced in the last 3 years, you'd have hung yourself by now, lol! :eyebrows: :D

85_600
05-20-2006, 07:39 PM
I got to drive the 600 today!!! YEaa....Only for about 15 minutes...but still. I was SOOO nice to here it runs and to feel it....

I think it's alive. :eek: When I first started it and for the next 5 minutes or so, it idled PERFECT! No misses, skips, anything. Then, I drove it around a bit, taking it easy at first, and it started that hesitation again. Right after that happened I did a couple "short" WOT runs, and it started running a little better.
I said I think it's alive because it's afraid I'm going to mess something up, so, it started up and idled fine for me. :D

I'm SOOO glad I decided to once and for all to keep it.:thumb:

Just an update...that's all.

Oh, just curious: Does the cooling fan come on, on other TD's while it's been sitting for just a short period of time? Mine kept coming on when it was idling before and after I drove it around. I can see afterwards but before hand I didn't think is was running long enough to get THAT warmed up.

cordes
05-23-2006, 10:11 PM
If your coolant temp sensor is unplugged it will be on continuoulsy. That should throw a CEL though. Pull the codes to see if anything shows up.

85_600
05-23-2006, 11:19 PM
If your coolant temp sensor is unplugged it will be on continuoulsy. That should throw a CEL though. Pull the codes to see if anything shows up.

Ever since this problem developed I have always checked the codes, almost daily :o

Saturday I checked them as well, just a 52. I've always had either 52 or, aw shoot I can't remember the other one, but they have always been around, even with installing a newer O2 bought from Autozone.:o

85_600
05-25-2006, 11:23 PM
Yet another "thinning of the herd" so to speak.

My first "list" of parts for my rebuild/T2 swap = about $1200. After my last for sale/not for sale I was able to thin it out down to about $700.

I'm now looking to down size it even more, so, here is one question about it:

#1 - Running the 87 Shelby Z LM on my 85 2.2, being IC'd and all, would I "really" need a G valve to control the boost? I know they aren't much but I need to thin my already thinned out list some more. The money pinch is on.

(EDIT) Or, could I pay someone on here to build me a decent G valve for less than what Dawes wants for one?

Also, would the stock wires be alright to use or should I at least keep those and something like NGK plugs on there, just to be safe?

Thanks!
Paul

talanthalus
05-30-2006, 10:07 AM
But do you have metric or standard allen wrenches? My set is standard...and if I try to use them on a metric allen head bolt...it strips it out. Ask me how I know this :yuck:

As far as why...

hmmmm, who knew. That was from wikipedia. It's dead on about being disliked by diy'ers.

Thanks to the fact that I own a 92 Camaro RS, I now have complete sets of Torx sockets...I'd bought a single for the Daytona several years ago, but damn near EVERYTHING on the Camaro uses one size or another, so I just broke down and bought a set recently. $10 at Autozone wasn't all that bad.

Lee'sdaytona
05-30-2006, 02:01 PM
Thanks to the fact that I own a 92 Camaro RS, I now have complete sets of Torx sockets...I'd bought a single for the Daytona several years ago, but damn near EVERYTHING on the Camaro uses one size or another, so I just broke down and bought a set recently. $10 at Autozone wasn't all that bad.
Haha, know exactly what you mean. My brother has a 94 Z-24 convertable....Purchased a torx set for it. The only torx I bought for the daytona was i think the seatbelt...if that...I can't remember now..
-Lee

cordes
05-30-2006, 07:44 PM
You won't need a G-valve right away. $10 and some free time will make one eventually though.

85_600
05-30-2006, 08:12 PM
You won't need a G-valve right away. $10 and some free time will make one eventually though.

I know I have been saying I'd like to save a buck or two, but for the piece of mind a already build G valve would bring me, for me it's worth the little extra $$.

Speaking of saving some dollars, I'm going to be posting up my "plans" since I have finally decided on what I'm going to do..besides the rebuild that is.
Stay tuned! (Pun intended :D )

Paul

talanthalus
06-27-2006, 12:41 AM
Haha, know exactly what you mean. My brother has a 94 Z-24 convertable....Purchased a torx set for it. The only torx I bought for the daytona was i think the seatbelt...if that...I can't remember now..
-Lee

Since I wrote that post about my Camaro, I had to replace the front brake pads...

I felt the back side of the caliper and realised the bolt must have been Torx, so I tried the biggest one...didn't fit...tried the next one...too small.

I grabbed my Chilton manual and it said, "...may use Torx or Allen head..." So, I look around for my allen wrenches, and none are near big enough. I found one HUGE allen wrench in my father-in-law's small tool box, and it just HAPPENED to be the right size.

Good for that, or that job would not have gotten done that day. I now have ANOTHER tool to buy for the Camaro! :)

Btw...the A/C compressor clutch removal tool is different between the Camaro and the clutches on my Shelby Z and Charger... hehe I have both of those now.