NASA track racing prep Qs

[Shadow24]

Well, i was lucky enough to watch some NASA races at Mid-Ohio race track saturday and that just got me more addicted to motorsports. I found out that NASA's HPDE (high Performance Driving Event) classes are all about teaching people how to drive (and they don't charge you an arm and a leg either! $45/year NASA membership and then you only pay the cost for the track weekends that varies by track). All you really need is a valid drivers liscence, a car (road leagal, race w/e) and a helmet and you get 4 20min sessions a day on the weekend events, so thats over 2.5 hours seat time per weekend event :) Im looking to join and start in their HPDE group 1 (point by passing, instructor ridalong required) with "Lucy" once i get a permenant job.

So this really boils down to im looking for advice for setting up my DD P-Body for track duty. The list i have so far is:

rear sway bar
adj. panard bar
front and rear tower bars
rear poly bushings (rear arms, etc)
replace crappy MOOG front poly bushings with Jonny's
end link front sway bar (this necessary? :confused2:)
complete coilovers on the rear
10.25" non-vented rear disc swap
11" front disc swap
LSD in rebuilt trans (happening anyways)


Now, is there anything more i should do or is it fine tuning the car at that point? would i benefit from lowering the car a couple inches? and i know this may look ricey, but would a wing be advantageous for track duty? Mid-ohio's rear straight is about 1/2 a mile long and its down-hill, if i can hit nearly 95mph from a dead stop at the 1/4, im betting ill be up to 120 or so by the end of the 1/2-mile back straight.

Also, what about strut tower bars? would front and rear tower bars help woith body roll when tossing a car through some corners?

I was talking with a NASA racer who was in the group 3 HPDE class (no instructors and MUCH looser passing rules i.e. no point-bys) who runs a Neon ACR, and he mentioned my car would be pretty decent with the v6 in it as the torque would be very advantageous coming out of a corner. It seems that if i get the driving down, "Lucy could be fairly competitive in a time trial or whatnot :D

[Vigo]

big swaybars on stock shocks and struts are not gonna get you good handling on a racetrack. Unfortunately your highest dollar investment will probably be in struts and shocks if you want good ones.

Kybs are fairly cheap, though and work great on stock springs. Good struts/shocks are important to limit weight transfer in fast transitions.

[Shadow24]

already have KYBs GR2s up front and gas-a-justs in the rear :) front coilovers are already installed, just haven't gotten around to doing the rears yet...

[speeddemon]

Why have you not listed tires? They would be #1 on my list and can influence a cars handling (and your enjoyment factor) more than anything.

It sounds as though you are just starting out - I'd make sure the car was safe/sound and focus on the driving (and spending the $ on an extra weekend or two rather than all the mods).

Just my $.02

[Shadow24]

good point, i forgot to list tires.... the guy i was talking to at the track was mentioning that i could probably snag some used race rubber at the weekends for cheap/free as a fair number of people run a 15" rim with race rubber... barring that i was going to run my nitto summer tires up front (if i can get them from CT soon...) and the all seasons out back. If i get a permenant job at a decent rate, i can probably afford some better tires and so on.

the mods would be time/money permitting anyways, and yes, i'd rather spend the $$$ for the weekend than some part for the car (unless i needed it :D ) But it's nice to have a plan for upgrading so your not lost on where to go and all.

I think id do the bushings first, maybe the rear sway. the way the car feels now is that the front response is crisp but the rear is really sloppy and unresponsive causing some abrupt steering changes going through normal road corners.

Also i am concerned that my 10.25" front disc 220mm rear drum brake setup would not be up to the task of slowing the car down from 100+ off the back straight or keep up with the continual braking abuse a road course does to brakes. (I am getting some non-vented rear discs w/ drum e-brakes this weekend, i just need to find the caravan 11" fronts and re-do all the brake lines/calipers and i'd feel safer racing then :) )

[mario03SRT]

good point, i forgot to list tires.... the guy i was talking to at the track was mentioning that i could probably snag some used race rubber at the weekends for cheap/free as a fair number of people run a 15" rim with race rubber... barring that i was going to run my nitto summer tires up front (if i can get them from CT soon...) and the all seasons out back. If i get a permenant job at a decent rate, i can probably afford some better tires and so on.

the mods would be time/money permitting anyways, and yes, i'd rather spend the $$$ for the weekend than some part for the car (unless i needed it :D ) But it's nice to have a plan for upgrading so your not lost on where to go and all.

I think id do the bushings first, maybe the rear sway. the way the car feels now is that the front response is crisp but the rear is really sloppy and unresponsive causing some abrupt steering changes going through normal road corners.

Also i am concerned that my 10.25" front disc 220mm rear drum brake setup would not be up to the task of slowing the car down from 100+ off the back straight or keep up with the continual braking abuse a road course does to brakes. (I am getting some non-vented rear discs w/ drum e-brakes this weekend, i just need to find the caravan 11" fronts and re-do all the brake lines/calipers and i'd feel safer racing then :) )

Get some Powerstop or EBC brake pads and use synthetic brake fluid so it won't boil.

[Shadow24]

do they make pads for the 11" van fronts and the 10.25 non-vented 89+ (drum e-brake) rear setup? thats what im looking to switch to especially if im going to be ragging on "Lucy" at the track.

and which DOT fluid do you mean? DOT-4? i thought DOT-5 was hard to switch do if you already had DOT 3/4 in the system...

[mario03SRT]

do they make pads for the 11" van fronts and the 10.25 non-vented 89+ (drum e-brake) rear setup? thats what im looking to switch to especially if im going to be ragging on "Lucy" at the track.

and which DOT fluid do you mean? DOT-4? i thought DOT-5 was hard to switch do if you already had DOT 3/4 in the system...

I believe that your system can be drained and flushed. And then the syn added.

[Shadow24]

Ok, i know my thread has been dead a while, but i have a few more questions. i have the 10.5 non-vented drum e-brake rears ready to swap this winter and i'd like to do the 11" fronts as well as all the hard lines while im at it.

basically, do i need the disc MC and prop valve?

will the 11" fronts fit under 15" steelies?

[Nemesismachine]

If EBC doesn't make a brake pad for your car, you can send them brakes and they can make you a custom set.

[turbovanman²]

Ok, i know my thread has been dead a while, but i have a few more questions. i have the 10.5 non-vented drum e-brake rears ready to swap this winter and i'd like to do the 11" fronts as well as all the hard lines while im at it.

basically, do i need the disc MC and prop valve?

will the 11" fronts fit under 15" steelies?

They make all kinds of stuff for the 91 and new brake setups, ditto for the rears as its the same pad.

Some wheels clear, some don't, so you'll have to get one and try it.

Just get a van M/C, that way your getting the 24mm version and you will need to find the prop valve OR install 2 adjustable ones and set it up yourself, which might not be a bad idea to set your brake bias.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I wouldn't add an extra rear sway bar. Shadow's especially and TM's in general are tail happy enough. The rear sway bar will only make it worse. What year shadow? I'd definately end-link the front sway bar. Not only do you gain handling through the corners but you gain a big traction advantage when you put the power down. Definately put 11" fronts on and then if the car is too heavy on front brakes you can upgrade to 11" rears later. You don't want big brakes in the back going into the 1st turn without knowing what the car is gonna do.

[Shadow24]

zombie thread Resurrection!

Well I have learned much in 3 years lurking and reading. I am still working on getting to a NASA event (hopefully next year) as an employment move has things looking brighter on the horizon.

So the main purpose of the thread resurrection is for some more input from anyone that has run a P-Body on track. The 3 racetracks I would be looking at attending for a NASA event are Lime Rock, CT, Watkins Glen NY and Pocono in PA. With that being said, has anyone run on those tracks? I have some concerns about brake fade/longevity especially at Pocono as it looks like they use 1/3 to 1/2 of the NASCAR circuit on the road course setups leading to some pretty high top speeds.

Currently the car is now a 94 shadow, stock suspension/brakes with Carbon metallic pads (potentially upgraded to 11" fronts with caravan calipers and the 89+ disc rears w/ drum e-brake).

[cordes]

I would not worry about 11" fronts with good fluid (DOT 5+). I went though a set of brake pads during the SDAC 20 road rally and experienced no brake fade in a daytona. I would expect it to be even easier with a Shadow.

[Shadow24]

What sort of speed/frequency were you braking at? HPDE events, considering I can reach 95mph from a dead stop in a 1/4 mile, I can see easily braking from 100-120mph at least once a lap, plus multiple corners from the 80mph range. Pocono may push the top speed towards 120-140 with its wicked long top speed runs. Average lap times are in the 1:40-2:30 for the tracks (guestimate based on length and watching vids on youtube) so the duty cycle during a 1/2 hour or so HPDE session I think will be higher than the road rally...Especially with 3-5 sessions/day for 2 days.

[cordes]

What sort of speed/frequency were you braking at? HPDE events, considering I can reach 95mph from a dead stop in a 1/4 mile, I can see easily braking from 100-120mph at least once a lap, plus multiple corners from the 80mph range. Pocono may push the top speed towards 120-140 with its wicked long top speed runs. Average lap times are in the 1:40-2:30 for the tracks (guestimate based on length and watching vids on youtube) so the duty cycle during a 1/2 hour or so HPDE session I think will be higher than the road rally...Especially with 3-5 sessions/day for 2 days.

That is certainly a possibility. I was driving the car about as hard as I could for nearly three hours with a couple stops along the way. It was hilly (I think it was technically mountainous) terrain so the brakes were used almost constantly on the winding roads. At no point were there an absence of brake burning smell.

I wasn't using 5+ fluid so I doubt that you could get it to boil without really trying. Order up some of that and you're about as good as you can get. I know you can get better pads, but fade due to heat shouldn't be an issue.

[Shadow24]

I was planning on some good DOT5.1 hi-temp fluid. What were you running for pads might I ask?

[cordes]

I was planning on some good DOT5.1 hi-temp fluid. What were you running for pads might I ask?

I was running whatever Rockauto had on sale at the time. Nothing special, but they would bite and lock up the wheels on demand. IMO the big brake cars really received big brakes and do a phenomenal job even in stock form.

Considering I picked up the pads for next to nothing I would recommend checking them out. If you don't like them, or you don't have enough braking you can swap them out after the first session. IIRC I paid the same amount for all four rotors, pads, and shipping from rockauto.com as what Oreilly's wanted for just the rear disks.

[Shadow24]

Yeah, I will probably go to rock auto for the calipers, and discs when I do the upgrade. unfortunately the backing plates are in Ohio and I'm in MA now, not sure if I will have them in time to swap the brakes before the car is ready for NASA.

Do you think the 10.25 fronts and 220mm drum rears would work in the mean time with good fluid and pads?

[cordes]

Yeah, I will probably go to rock auto for the calipers, and discs when I do the upgrade. unfortunately the backing plates are in Ohio and I'm in MA now, not sure if I will have them in time to swap the brakes before the car is ready for NASA.

Do you think the 10.25 fronts and 220mm drum rears would work in the mean time with good fluid and pads?

I would think so, but I don't have any personal experience there. I do know that the stock turbo car brakes are pretty stellar compared to other brand's brakes in stock form. It's certainly something that I wouldn't hesitate to take out and run with good fluid. Boiling the fluid is the biggest problem most folks run in to IMO.

[Shadow24]

Yeah, I don't recall any real problems stopping the car before. I hear you on the fluid though. IIRC, your "supposed" to change the fluid every 2-3 years, but most people probably never do unless something happens. Once the fluid gets water in it, the boiling point drops DRASTICALLY. (580* to 240* for example)

[anarchyjet]

Your brakes will be fine if you run good pads and fluid. I run wagner severe duty and they work great at a good price. Don't focus on the DOT number of the brake fluid. To meet dot 4, or 5.1 they measure the dry and wet boiling point and you don't care about the wet. Because you are going to bleed the brakes before hitting the track. I run ATE superblue, while only a DOT 4 fluid it's dry boiling point is 536 degrees which is well above the DOT 5.1 spec. https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3326
-AJ-

[cordes]

Yeah, I don't recall any real problems stopping the car before. I hear you on the fluid though. IIRC, your "supposed" to change the fluid every 2-3 years, but most people probably never do unless something happens. Once the fluid gets water in it, the boiling point drops DRASTICALLY. (580* to 240* for example)

That's exactly why I completely flush the fluid in my cars every 2 years if I'm going to be running it in any events.

[bgbmxer]

I know people that flush there system after any event. And also you can do most performance driving days with nothing but a helmet I thought. All the reading and studying I have done most people say let your car alone and learn how to drive it for a year then start changin parts that way your used to how the car handled in the first place and ur driving is good enough to use these changes

[Shadow24]

I know people that flush there system after any event. And also you can do most performance driving days with nothing but a helmet I thought. All the reading and studying I have done most people say let your car alone and learn how to drive it for a year then start changin parts that way your used to how the car handled in the first place and ur driving is good enough to use these changes

Indeed, this is mostly what I have found as well. I have also changed my plan to running normal tires (at max, Star specs but no R-comps) and leaving the Car N/A for a bit. I was concerned with the brakes mostly from a longevity and safety perspective. Hard braking from 120 on smaller brakes made me a little concerned.