3.0L Turbo Budget Build

[nmw2006]

Ok, its time to start my turbo build thread....I am going to be doing this on an extremely tight budget mostly because I am a full time student without much income to speak of.

First off....Car is a 1991 Dodge Spirit R/T.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0185.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0186.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0188.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0184.jpg

I bought the car as a roller - body only. I found a low-mileage (around 45k miles) 3.0L that came out of a 1994 Acclaim and swapped it in with a A543 bought from Jason in MI. As of right now it is running on the stock 3.0L/A543 computer, but I have a MSII waiting to be swapped in as soon as it gets warm.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0187.jpg

Upgrades so far include all the basic N/A updates:

1" plenum spacers (these may need to go for the turbo install due to fitment issues)
New oil pump
New water pump
New timing belt
52mm throttle body
K&N air filter (I know - shouldn't be on the TB..)
Underdrive pulley
Ported upper plenum
Crower regrind turbo cams
Full mandrel-bent 3" exhaust
Wiring harness from a 3.0L/A543 Daytona
Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel
New 205/65/R15 (i believe - have to check) Kumho ESCTA ASX on stock rims
New Stock TIII Clutch

Probably lots more I have forgotten...anyhow...this is what I am working with and I will post up more info and parts as I start to collect them. The car already hauls some serious butt and I am very excited to see what the results will be.

[nmw2006]

First part I found is a used Turbonetics Evolution external wastegate. It has a 5psi spring installed.

Got it off ebay for $125 shipped.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0189.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0190.jpg

Since I am going to be using Ed Kelley's headers, this should be perfect for my application.

[nmw2006]

Intercooler and BOV adapter pipe are on order....pics soon

Plus Ed's header whenever he gets them done and shipped out.

[jamesmonty]

Can't wait for more updates! Are you going to make it to spring fling on April 4th? I would love to see the spirit go down the track for some pre turbo numbers.

[nmw2006]

Of course...wouldn't miss it. However I do plan on being the slowest car there lol...I'm gonna guess around 14.5-15.0 due to the driver mod. :yuck:

I am probobly going to jinx myself and the car is going to explode, but i am predicting a 14.6 at 93 mph....Lets see how close I am. :evil:

[nmw2006]

It was nice out today (75 degrees WOOHOO!!) so I decided to get some work done on my car.

I fixed a few issues:

Finally got all my headlights and fog lights working (ground issues). Car looks nice in the dark now :P

Changed spark plugs from Bosch Platinum +4s (these things are absolutely crappy) to some cheap Champion RN11YC4s and AMAZINGLY my off-throttle stutter (missing) problem went away. WOW!!

Getting closer to my MSII install but trying to fix all the little bugs first.

Edit: Still don't have a horn..Looking into that now....

[Ondonti]

I am going to vote low 15's or slower
I don't know how well your car 60's etc.
Hard to tell about a setup that hasn't been to the track before.
The thing going for you is the low mileage motor. Ive only tracked a 90k blowbye motor and a 120+k motor with a leaky exhaust valve. The 120k mile motor was slightly faster at high altitude even without the aluminum flywheel.

14.8@92 with a 2.2 60' on the 90k blowbye motor at sea level. I couldnt run the 120+k mile leaky exhaust valve motor because I put a stock used clutch in the car and it slips at sea level.
What tires are you going to run and what clutch do you have installed?

14.6 would be an A body 3.0 bpu record. Is your R/T power everything?

[nmw2006]

MAN, way to shoot down a guys hopes and dreams....:mad:

Honestly though, the 14.6 was more of a joke and I expect it to go somewhere near 15...but hopefully quicker :amen:

Yes my R/T has power everything, tires, clutch, and aluminum flywheel added to first post.

[Bardo]

subscribed

[Ondonti]

MAN, way to shoot down a guys hopes and dreams....:mad:

Honestly though, the 14.6 was more of a joke and I expect it to go somewhere near 15...but hopefully quicker :amen:

Yes my R/T has power everything, tires, clutch, and aluminum flywheel added to first post.
Sorry, ive analyzed the 3.0 times too much :P:love:

That said, I went back to back weeks racing.
14.8@92 with a 2.2 60' n/a BPU
then the next week
13.9@101.89 with a 2.3 60', 5psi boost, and 9:1 a/f cause I didn't tune the car and had the rising rate regulator cranked to the max until I got my hands on a laptop.

Cant really shake a stick at gaining 10mph and 1 second with 5 pounds of boost and no tune.

5psi would take an 18 second 4 cylinder 8 valve dodge into the low 17's lol.

Just 5 pounds of boost and you will have a really really fun car that actually has balls when you are out of boost. I actually got better gas mileage and the low rpms hp picked up because of the turbos exhaust restriction so it felt even more responsive at low rpms low throttle openings if you didn't know it had a turbo. Obvious lag cause I had a 3" cat and large chinese turbo on that car.

[Shadow24]

i'd think in N/A form, mid to low 15s are going to be a good starting place. with a bad tune and no driver mod i went from an initial 16.1ish to consistent 15.2s (189whp, 201wtq) I still have to work on the driver mod and im ripping 14.8s now with more power than the 12v (revving to 7000 to clear the 1/4 in 3rd). Im hoping to get way down in the 14s before i put my M90 on, but we will see. 60' needs a lot of work though (high 2.2s to 2.3s on street tires)

you have a nice thread going, its cool to see more people modding the 3.0 than the original hard-core guys :)

btw, if your ever around Lexington or Columbus, look me up, im out in Ohio for an internship and i have "Lucy" out here and I'll even offer to take you for a spin.

[WickedShelby88]

Now just for reference I thought the N/A 3.0 5 speed shadows were 16 sec. cars stock. Correct me it I'm wrong. I knew they would smoke a beretta Z26 which is a comparable car in its class. I've driven a 13 sec car and my dads 3.0 tona ES box stock with no muffler felt pretty quick too. 5 speed car as well with rear seats, spare, etc. removed. Is there a header out there you can buy right now to mount a turbo or do you need to fab one? No big deal, just wondering what options are there.

[Shadow24]

I have a 2001 24v SOHC motor, not the original 12v :) never ran mine at the track with the 12v so im not sure what it would have done.

Im also running a full interior with spare ATM (race weight with me in the car and junk in the trunk was 3084lbs)

Ed is making some turbo headers, other than fabbing your won, thats about the only option. Thats one reason im going with an M90 supercharger (and the fact i already have some SS headers)

[WickedShelby88]

Making headers isn't too bad on a 3.0, but if there are some that become available I may put together some parts and such. The wife's mini could use some more power.

[nmw2006]

More News...

Did my MS reinstall :faint::banghead: over this past weekend and am in the process of getting it tuned...may not be track-ready by next weekend , but we will see.

Stupid thing runs so pig-rich it falls flat on its face at throttle tip-in, but you take fuel out and it won't idle or take off without a 4k rev and huge clutch slippage....GRRRRRR

Anyhow I have bought a nice Innovate WBO2 system from DIYAutotune, and my IC (this thing is freaking HUGE - 12x24x3) and BOV adapter pipe came in..i will get pics up soon.

Slowly making progress on this thing but money is running out LOL.

Hopefully i can meet up with Shadow24 later this week and do some wideband tuning to get it on the track Saturday....but we shall see.

[Ondonti]

Lol well trying to tune without that wideband with no real base map does not sound too fun.

[Shadow24]

yeah, i suggested he get an LC-1 ASAP before he accidentally killed it. NB for tuning = http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/fear.gif

[nmw2006]

Fixed my MS issues...turns out the ports by the TB on this manifold are not good vacuum ports. Attached my hose at the other end near the stock MAP sensor and the thing just woke up...no wonder it was running so rich - it was dumping in fuel and thinking that I was at idle vaccuum (around 25 kPa) all the time.

Anyhow, it will be on the track in Cinci this weekend, weather pending...

[nmw2006]

Also got my LC-1 yesterday, got it all hooked up and it only lasted for about 5 minutes before completely giving up the ghost...

All i can figure out is that I got a dud controller.

It has power, its all wired right, but not getting any feedback from it, also can't connect to it via serial port.

Oh well, I will be sending it back I guess.

[nmw2006]

Woot!! time for more pictures...finally got my internet connected at my new place in Lancaster.

First off...some pics of my new FMIC...it's from CXRacing and measures 12x24x3...should be plenty big enough :evil:

It's a 3" in/out same side bar and plate piece - looks to be nice enough for what I need and the price was definitely right - $140

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0209.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0210.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0211.jpg

Also got a picture of my BOV adapter pipe for my Type H RFL.

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/natemw2006/Spirit%20RT/DSCN0208.jpg

Things are starting to come together - I'm liking it :love:

[Shadow24]

im still waiting for payment for the MS diagnostic services....

J/K lol

ill see you in Cinci tomorrow weather pending (then you can stare at my taillights! :D)

[nmw2006]

TAILLIGHTS HA!!!!

I've got :nx: MWAHAHAHA...

[Shadow24]

lol, lets let the cars do the talking tomorrow :p

(i didn't see the fogger or bottle so i think its just the speed or crack....)

[nmw2006]

Well, ran for the first time on the track Saturday, It was a BLAST :rockon:

Got 4 runs in as I got there late:

1st Run: I got excited/nervous (GO ME!!) and spun it through 2nd :( And left on green LOL

R/T: 0.569
60': 2.650
330': 7.063
1/8: 10.754
MPH: 67.00
1000: 13.885
1/4: 16.526 :yuck:
MPH: 85.29

2nd Run: Calmed down a little, only spun through 1st - Still left on green.

R/T: 0.482
60': 2.503
330': 6.751
1/8: 10.363
MPH: 68.06
1000: 13.448
1/4: 16.060
MPH: 86.08

3rd Run: Finally got a good launch, and left on yellow :thumb: BEST RUN !!

R/T: 0.177
60': 2.367
330': 6.557
1/8: 10.137
MPH: 69.27
1000: 13.187
1/4: 15.787
MPH: 86.38

Final Run: Switched lanes and spun through 1st again :(

R/T: 0.358
60': 2.587
330': 6.834
1/8: 10.432
MPH: 68.91
1000: 13.490
1/4: 16.086
MPH: 86.48

I'm pretty happy, I know this thing has a 15.0 in it with some sticky tires and a good launch. A 2.0 short time would probably net me a 14.9...

[Ondonti]

Stock ecu or MS?
If MS I bet you have the car.......detuned......I run 86-87mph at 4400 foot elevation and 92+ at sea level with stock cams and longblock. On stock ecu.
What are you shifting at? I guess this is interesting cause you have so much more control if you were using the MS. Much easier to get things wrong I bet! Plus you have those big cams installed right? No public info an anyone with that open of a setup and a 5 speed.
I shift at the stock 6200 limiter even with stock cams and no fuel there with the stock ecu.
And what kind of port job did you do on the plenum?

BTW didn't you get a package..........

[Shadow24]

Did you like my taillights :) nice job on your runs though. once you get it tuned more with the MS, im seeing high 14s in your future :thumb:

btw, once you get your WBo2 fixed, LMK and we can do some tuning at National Trails outside Columbus. maybe we can get you down towards 15.0 :)

[nmw2006]

Running on MS - VERY detuned - as in not at all, no WBO2 yet

Shifting whenever it quit pulling, not sure as I don't have a tach besides on the laptop and I wasn't really paying attention to that and wasn't datalogging... DOH

I do know that I was revving close to 7k to cross the traps in 3rd gear. This thing screams :evil:

Yes I was running the regrind cams. Plenum is a simple center divider delete.

Package?

[Ondonti]

What is your rev limiter set at.... lol
I bet your fuel is all wrong and so is the timing. Thats why I wish someone had the breakdown for the n/a computer timing.

Thought you got one of Ed's headers.

[Shadow24]

timing im pretty sure is not ideal, its around 15-17* across the table. Fuel was erred on the rich side until the WBo2 gets remedied.

anyone have the tables from the stock 12v computer pulled out?

[nmw2006]

My rev limiter (Fuel Cut) is at 7000. I know my fuel and timing are off, but it will be fixed soon.

I have Ed's headers, but I'm not running turbo yet...:confused:

[Ondonti]

Well I myself am sorta planning on putting in a stock motor with no turbo to start my MS stuff.

Rob Lloyd probably could create some table of timing information but when i look at the timing tables in Dcal I have a hard time figuring out how much total advance there is in the system at WOT and part throttle. I don't understand how they work together enough.

The 2 valve is going to need significantly more timing then the 4 valve though. Thats pretty much standard in 2 valve vs 4 valve tuning, so if he is using your 4 valve type timing its way weak for him.

Is that total timing or minus the base? whats the base?
I am thinking he should have 30+ degrees with timing ramping up after maybe 5000-6000 rpms because higher rpms are less likely to detonate.
6g72 guys with 30psi boost and race gas with 4 valve heads are running low 20's total timing above 5000-6000 rpms so the 2 valve with no boost and 85-87 octane gas should be a lot higher.

btw no burnouts on street tires. drive around the water box

Tune your a/f to mid/high 12's when you are n/a in the 3.0. I found that the 5 speed ecu running mid 12's ran faster then the auto ecu running high 12's a/f. I dont know what the timing differences are between the cals so I can't claim mid 12's makes more power.

When tuning the part throttle timing, its okay to crank the low rpm timing until you hear an audible knock then back it off a few degrees. thats how I set base timing in my daily. Sometimes I have to back it off a few degrees on long mountain trips in a loaded car trips or if elevation changes (lower elevation = less timing). The knock is happening with very little fuel in the chamber so its not gonna damage your pistons. Street tune your part throttle low rpm timing and then "maximizing" WOT timing is dyno territory or copy known good #'s
but yeah, sounds like you are 15 degrees low on timing at WOT! if your timing is that far off you have mid 14's in your belt.

[nmw2006]

I got the stock timing numbers from Rob Lloyd :hail: So here we go....


From the '89 V6, the advance from MAP @ WOT looks like it goes from 15deg @ -9.5psi to 0 deg @ -3.0psi.

The advance from RPM has these points:
1) 1500 rpm x 10.0 deg
2) 2000 rpm x 14.5 deg
3) 2800 rpm x 17.5 deg
4) 4000 rpm x 18.0 deg
5) 4800 rpm x 26.0 deg

Now I just have to convert this info over to my tables and I should have a much better running car...once I get my WBO2 back from being worked on.

[Aries_Turbo]

looks like a fun project.

that intercooler is going to limit you alot though.

if it had an inlet on one end and the out on the other it would be worlds better.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

Neat project, :thumb:

Makes me want to put a 3.0L in my R/T and turbo it, :D

[Vigo]

This is definitely a cool project! cant wait to see more updates!

you and brian should meet for a '15 second 3.0 swapped cars' showdown lol :D

[Aries_Turbo]

i sold mine.

Brian

[Vigo]

oh poop. well wrangle up the new owner and see if he'll throw down :p

[Aries_Turbo]

possibly. i dont know how much of a chance nathan would have though. a k car weighs like 2400lbs and i had some mods done to my old one as well ;)

Brian

[nmw2006]

You guys just wait, I plan to have a 13 second or faster car by the time I'm done :lol:

My car weighs in at somewhere near 3200 pounds with me in it i believe, maybe more, so i doubt I'll see more than low 15s N/A (once I get it tuned properly).

I do know that I ran a 15.7 with a crappy 60 foot, no traction, and a very crappy tune, so all I can do is hope (and throw more money at it...) :nod:

Still waiting on my WBO2 to get back to me after warranty work is done, then I will see what i can do with the correct timing and a decent A/F ratio. (Right now it is running VERY rich at WOT to keep the motor alive and happy.)

Grrrr... I hate waiting....

[Aries_Turbo]

i ran a 15.7 with a 604 in drive and just matting it on the green at the track. ;)

im just messing around. i dont even have the car anymore.

yours will be pretty sweet when you are done. im serious about that intercooler though. it isnt ideal.

Brian

[nmw2006]

Using that type intercooler is better than the alternatives. (IE. doing a plenum flip and having to rerun all my wiring/cables, or having charge piping running under the header panel/car because there is not room to run it across between the radiator/motor)

And honestly, under low pressure (boost), I don't see how it can hurt anything.

I'm not gonna be trying to run 25 psi on this setup, so flow rates won't even enter into the equation.

It's only a $140 intercooler anyway, I'm not expecting to do wonders with it, if I was, I would be running a Spearco.

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah it will probably be ok if you are only planning low boost.

brian

[Ondonti]

You could also run the type that the TD guys run, a vertical core that exits and enters on the same side. Worry about getting it running first I now repentantly say :P

Thanks ROB!!!!!!!!!! Ive seen the info but I am never sure what other timing events are involved in total timing.

so 26 degrees + 12 degrees (stock timing) is 38 degrees! And many are running 40-41 degrees at sea level! I am running 43 degrees up here.
What is your base timing? If its zero, you are down 20+degrees of timing. If its 12 you are still down about 10+ degrees! Then with the fuel right......I think there is some magic to be let loose with those cams and megasquirt.

That means you are WAY off!!! I think you will be surprised how much it picks up with the right timing. IMO sidenote, 3.0's dont have enough idle timing but I am guessing it helps emissions. Always idle smoother with more timing. I was blabbing about this subject today to bansheenut.
BTW, I think i proved today that with the right fuel the stock 3.0 can be a beast! IMO I love low boost and the instant torque of the 3.0 out of boost. I wish I had the money to turbo my Spirit again. Been dreaming about that for 3 years but its not happening anytime soon.
What turbo are you going to use? I am a precision 6262 fan myself. Wish I had one now.
I also bet with conservative timing (or we figure out a knock sensor set up) you could run 5psi and cheap gas when you feel like it.

[Vigo]

I know ill be the lamest of the boosted 3.0 crowd but i still cant wait to put the m90 on mine! 3.0s make fairly impressive numbers at low boost..

[nmw2006]

How to check base timing on our motors? I assume mine is stock since all I did was change the timing belt and re-align the timing marks.

I am looking into running E85 since it is cheap around here and there are lots of stations near me.

Where can i find the right injectors to run? How do you find the specs/flow rates on them?

I know the stockers are 19 lb/hr, so 30% more = somewhere near 25 lb/hr correct?

As far as the turbo goes, I don't have a grand to drop on your Precision 6262....or anywhere near that kind of money. I need a cheap, replaceable solution like the KKK K27 or something. (The K27 looks to be somewhere near the right size for the 3.0L at least at low boost levels....and you can get one for less than $300 brand new.)

[Aries_Turbo]

holset or borg warner can be had on ebay for cheap.

i picked up a borg warner s200 for 165$ shipped.

Brian

[Vigo]

(The K27 looks to be somewhere near the right size for the 3.0L at least at low boost levels....and you can get one for less than $300 brand new.)

I think Brent actually ran one of those on his spirit when it ran 13.9 but i may be talking out my ---...

[Ondonti]

Yeah i ran the k27. I used to think it was a 57 trim until I went to a turbo shop with my bigger compressor wheel (67) and they were like "nope"
So I built a frankenstein turbo out of an ancient center section I bought 7 years ago for cheap and purchased a turbine.
I wish I had a 6262. I had no idea what I was doing 3 years ago with turbo selection and I dont even know why I own a 67mm wheel. K27 will be fun. I think I only bought upgrade parts cause I had some money 3 years ago. My highschool savings were gone after that summer :P I never spent any money that I made in highschool cause I didn't like cars yet.

Since you are megasquirted you can really run any injectors you want. IMO for n/a, if you had an adjustable base regulator, I would just crank fuel pressure. Don't buy injectors that you might need to toss when you get your turbo in. I don't know how close our stock injectors run to max duty cycle so maybe more duty cycle AND a few more psi is another option?
If I cant afford the MS repairs maybe you want my k27 :P I've got no idea how much its gonna cost. I have also throw around the idea of building a turbo replacement pipe that connects your manifold to your downpipe so if you didnt have a turbo yet you could still keep your turbo manifolds and downpipe in or if your turbo frags cause its not the best piece, you can still run n/a easily.
13.9@101.89 on my first pass with the a/f in the 9's or worse (had the RRR cranked all the way cause I didnt tune the car). K27ftw.

Reason why I say avoid "inbetween" injectors is that I found myself in the past constantly moving the focus of my project instead of working towards a concrete goal. I had to get help with 1 months rent after delivery of my motor 3 years ago.

I think a cam'd 3.0 on MS will be 12 second territory even if you are really conservative. You might not be able to afford the stuff to support what you are building though. My 2007-2008 were clutch issue years where I tried to save money and it bit me cause I didnt balance my clutch vs hp budget :P
BTW the drivers mod is free!

[nmw2006]

I DO HAVE a concrete goal...I think...CHEAP & RELIABLE...which also means that FAST is out of the equation :thumb: Oh well, that will come later.

Oh, I know I'm gonna need a clutch soon :evil: But I'll get to that when I get there.

I would not have any problem trading the MS work for your K27 if its in good condition :P

I have a adjustable base fuel regulator, so no problems there. I will just run the stocker injectors till they crap out or quit working me thinks. I just don't know if they will handle E85 even with the pressure cranked up.

I know I could run in the 11's like you just did, but I want my motor to survive more than one or two passes since I still daily drive this thing LOL.

[Vigo]

i think the insinuation that it wouldnt last more than 2 passes is baseless. Im fairly certain brent could run that 11 sec pass over and over and over.

Your car is much heavier and it would not be as easy to get there with a less complicated setup (i.e. no custom intake, no e85, smaller turbo, no meth) but you would probably have a hard time NOT running 13s if you run more than 5 psi, and 12s would be pretty easily attainable on a basic 93 octane, well intercooled setup on a stock longblock in a full weight car. Youd just need slicks and enough fuel.

[Ondonti]

he said he wants e85. i will tell you its not as good on mileage. I did make it all the way home on about 7 gallons of e85. Drove about 150 miles including lots of tuning runs etc. Thats over 20mpg. At first I thought it was really sucking gas bad but I think its just cause our gas gauges are not very linear.

[nmw2006]

Well, got my WBO2 back from Innovate, it appears to me that they just sent me a new unit...but they say it was repaired...oh well, no matter.

Now I have to get it hooked up and running again, then I can mess with my tune.

Sounds like something to do this afternoon...

[Vigo]

I know the stockers are 19 lb/hr, so 30% more = somewhere near 25 lb/hr correct?

If your motor uses the older style injectors you cn run 24lb injectors out of turbo dodges with the log intake. Super easy to pull and fairly easy to find.. If you cant find any i may be able to come with 6 for almost nothing$.

[Aries_Turbo]

27lb.... :)

Brian

[Vigo]

i should have checked the Knowledge Center first eh Brian? heheh

[Ondonti]

use new fuel lines with e85. My injectors are now all clogged/stuck open and I don't know about fixing it at the moment

[87turbodance]

I got the stock timing numbers from Rob Lloyd :hail: So here we go....



Now I just have to convert this info over to my tables and I should have a much better running car...once I get my WBO2 back from being worked on.

On my MS install I'm running 30 total timing at WOT by 3000 RPM and 40 under light throttle by 3000 RPM and no knock. Even though my tune at WOT is only rough my car IS definitely faster than before MS!

[MOPAR_TUNING]

oh wow i just found a turbo two door shadow like 5days ago im gonna go take the injectors before jason gets there....:evil:

sry jason...:bump2:

[Twisted Noodle]

Nathan - I'd like to talk to you about your set up. After SDAC I found a Daytona with the 3.0/A604 for 160 bucks. The guy thought the tranny was bad but turns out he had a broken front spring that was getting hung up on the tire. Luckily I have a pair of struts out in the shed. :eyebrows:
His daughter is going to be pissed off when she finds out that "daddy" was wrong about the tranny.

I was going to pull the motor and swap in a 2.4 but this looks more like fun. I know I'll have to ditch the 604 eventually and swap in a 543. Not sure how much the 'tona weighs but I'm sure it's lighter than my SL.

You mentioned turbo headers earlier... where do I look to get my paws on a pair?
You also made mention of not installing the air filter on the TB? Is that just because of it sucking in hot air?

Where did you get the plenum spacer? I am looking into the MS myself so this will get really interesting. I'm sure I'll have a million questions but I'll wait until I get a little further with my project.
Thanks

Nate Hopkins. BTW it was good meeting you and your brother at SDAC.

[Twisted Noodle]

Is this the MS2 kit I am looking for? http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-engine-management-system-wpcb3-unassembled-kit-p-59.html

[Shadow24]

DIY is really good with the MS stuff (and service/parts too!) KMP has the headers HERE (http://www.kmperformance.com/index2.html) you also might want to start a thread on your build to ask questions etc.

too bad i was too poor this year to go to SDAC :(:(:(:(:(:(


btw, Nate, when i get my new trans in, we need to go to National Trails again :D

[nmw2006]

Kudos on getting the Daytona !!

You will love the 3.0L/A543, especially with MSII.

Yeah, thats the kit you want if you are planning on building one yourself. There are also assembled ones available.

Yes the only issue with the filter on the TB is the heat, a nice cold air set up works wonders.

The spacers i used came from Cheetah Engineering + Performance, but others here have had some problems with the guy that runs it, so take some caution.

Site is here: http://www.cheetahonline.com

He also sells TB spacers.

Hope this info helps, let me know.

[Twisted Noodle]

Yeah Nate that website is great. I wasn't sure how much support there was for the 3.0. I know KMperformance is out there but I haven't seen much else. Maybe I am just not looking in the right places. Keep us updated!

[Ondonti]

my ms?

[Twisted Noodle]

my ms?

Well, I'm not sure what exactly "ms" means. Mega Squirt??

I didn't mean to not included you. Your posts have been very very helpful.

Maybe your not responding to me at all...lol

[Ondonti]

he has my ms

[nmw2006]

Yeah I've been working on his MS board trying to get the 2nd injector driver working... I've all but given up on it assuming that it was fried when put together...However I do need to get it packaged back up and sent out but I've been slacking on that part :o Sorry. I'll try to get it out to you next week.

PS. it will be usable on one driver you will just have to configure it correctly...but i would recommend getting another one that is already assembled or have it assembled more carefully :yuck:

I programmed it with my base tune too so it should start and run on yours, then will just have to be tweaked for your setup.

[Shadow24]

Try sending it to DIY, they do diagnostic and repair services and are really good at it too

[Ondonti]

can't install a new driver?
I have parallel rails and am going to be changing my fuel setup so I have 1 pump,filter,feed line feeding each rail separately, then both combine together for the base regulator and return line. 1 pump feeding each rail so it probably wouldnt make a difference running 1 vs 2 drivers?


Have you updated your ignition timing? I want to see the differnce 20 degrees of timing makes at the track please!
I'd like to see how you compare with 24v shadow since you have the 12v cam weakness addressed.

I also don't know if you still want the k27. I am a bit of a pack rat with car stuff cause I tell myself "ill use this someday
I have to put the covers back on. I have not touched it since i took pictures of it a few years ago to show people that the turbine wheel wasnt made of crap metal.

[Shadow24]

im still faster than him :) lol but as soon as he gets his turbo, ill be slow again while i work on the supercharger project...

[Ondonti]

btw was my computer able to run your car?

[Ondonti]

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f69/250609-son-stein-lives.html

First turbo 3.0 R/T is on the road now :)

[nmw2006]

I changed both drivers on your board as well as the transistors used for current limiting and the flyback circuit...(all 6 "big" components in the injection circuits) plus i changed all the smaller transistors after several of them tested bad....but it still refuses to work. This is why i have a feeling it is something internal in the board.

I hooked it up to my car to verify all was well but it would not run well as only one of my injector banks was firing (obviously). In order to make it work (at least in theory) you would have to wire all the injectors to a single driver instead of 2 (like mine is), but even then you may run into issues with over-current conditions by pulling for all 6 injectors off of one driver.

Yes i am still interested in getting your K27.

Let me know what you want me to do with this thing ie. send it back to you, or send it to DIY.

Thanks for your patience while i have been working on this thing too.

[Ondonti]

i built my turbo manifold to be "sorta" twin scroll cause this k27 has a divided turbine housing. something to keep in mind. you could port the twin scroll edge so it doesnt present a flat spot to the flow of exhaust but seperating the flow from front and rear = cool. I don't know what manifold you were planning on running.

I think I will just try it with 1 driver for now. Ive heard that one advantage MS has over AEM is that its injector drivers are more robust. I'd like to try it before sinking more repairs into it. One problem is that 4 bar map sensor that I don't want to lose. It was a horrible decision to buy it on ebay but it was many years ago and I didnt know better.


btw whats your exhaust size and do you have a cat installed? 3.0T doesnt like exhaust.
I will be side exiting my Duster with 3.5" pipe because it got way laggy when I attached the full exhaust again. Or get a cutout. On that car I cant justify the weight of exhaust at the track. Your car would probably love a cutout. One nice thing about 3.0T with full exhaust and cat is that its really quiet.

[nmw2006]

I am running full 3" stainless right now with a tiny (read: 8" long by about 5" round) high-flow metallic cat and a huge walker turbo muffler. It sounds sweet right now...pretty tame at idle but stomp it and it screams :love:

I have a 3" cutout that i wanted to put just ahead of the cat but the exhaust shop laughed at me and said they would not (could not) do that. :mad:

I will finish up trying to resolder a few components this weekend and get it back to you. Pm me and let me know what you want to do about payment (ie. what you think your K27 is worth)

[Shadow24]

IIRC the injector drivers are capable of handling 8 injectors each... so 6 shouldn't be a strain on the injector driver

[nmw2006]

Alright!!! My turbo is on the way, finally. Kudos to Brent (ondonti) :love::hail:

I will be using the Borg Warner K27 as it is a fairly decent match to our 3.0L.

Hopefully i will be able to get this thing put together soon, but i start school again on Sept. 20th... :mad:

Also need to take the time for a tranny rebuild/new clutch + OBX since adding turbo = worn out, weak tranny explosion :yuck:

[Shadow24]

hey, LMK when you want to rebuild a trans, i'll let you use my spare to rebuild if you give me your old one when your done. plus ive rebuilt an A543 once already lol

[Shadowv4l]

I checked out http://www.cheetahonline.com The guy's paypal is shut down, LOL, you got lucky NMW2006. Thanks for the warning tho

[Ondonti]

Just avoid lots of burnouts and the diff pin should stay in there :P

[nmw2006]

Well my stock clutch took a dump last night after i got it good and hot during some hot-lapping at the track. Acted kinda odd during one run then the next slipped in all gears. I could rev the engine in any gear after that and not go anywhere :lol:

After I let it sit for a while and cool down, made a couple more test passes and it seemed to hold like normal, so IDK.

I have not been able to come out of the hole for a few weeks now, best 60 foots have been 2.4 - 2.5, so it has been slipping for a while.

Looks like my tranny rebuild days are gonna come sooner than I thought because I HATE removing/installing these trannys more than I absolutely have to.

Looking into an oversized TU 6-puck ceramic with a purple plate for future power holding :amen: but the $450 or so is gonna hurt.

So lets see....new clutch, $450...OBX $400 or so....tranny rebuild parts $400 or so...DANG this is getting expensive :mad:

And that doesn't even start to get into the turbo fun stuff....

EDIT: I also ran a new PB (15.674 @ 87.37, 2.411 60') last night WITH a slipping clutch, so me thinks I am making more power now after some MS tuning. :nod:

[Shadow24]

lol, you keep procrastinating and ill STAY faster than you and be boosted sooner lol

btw, got my timing light if you want to stop by and check your timing. Im also aval to help with the trans and all that when you need it

[Ondonti]

450 is a bit much. you could get an annoying dual diaphram for 150 and then a solid disc for less then 100 but you might not like driving it.

My suggestion is a clutchnet solid disc (6 puck or 3 puck if you want crazy) and a FWDP DD ($150) or TU if they will make one for a normal disc, or eurodrive DD plate. Much cheaper that way and 3.0's don't know the meaning of "too much pressure on the thrust bearings"

I've already got proof a clutchnet 6 puck disc can hold great power in a heavy R/T tona with a FWDP DD. Nobody seemed to believe but :thumb: I think it will hold 500ft/lb and thats way beyond your goals. The FWD DD plate won't kill your foot like my crazy 3300# unmodified TU one will. I extended my clutch arm and I actually enjoy it. When i get into my stock plate car, I keep thinking the plate is broken.

Get the OBX and trans rebuild when you can afford it....Just put in some diff pin savers for the neon for 10 bucks.

Unless the money starts floating around. I wanted to rebuild a tranny 2 years ago but financially it made no sense.

[nmw2006]

Well I did some research and went ahead and ordered the clutch that ondonti suggested. I would like a stiffer clutch pedal, because right now i have a hard time keeping my foot off it on the way down the track and I could actually be helping it slip.

Anyhow got the 6-puck clutchnet ceramic disc and a FWDP Dual-Diaphram PP, also got the new friction surface for my fidanza aluminum flywheel.

Also picked up a solid bobble strut from johnny to hopefully help with my engine flopping around under hard accel, already have solid mounts but a stock bobble strut.

Also looking into some new valve springs since i know that mine start floating at about 5800 rpms or so, the pitch of the engine changes and it just stops pulling.

Got my timing set correctly also, now I have complete timing control via MS. Upped it to 36 degrees or so at wide open from 28 LOL and still haven't heard any pinging/knocking at WOT and 89 octane. I will probably up it some more next time I hit the track.

Also want to get the launch control and flatshift set up in MSII Extra.

[Ondonti]

So your total damage on clutch was less then $300 right?

Any idea how many miles are on those stock valve springs? Mine still makes power above 6000 on the dyno with OEM springs and bigger cams. The springs probably have 2500 miles on them.

Maybe think about the Starion springs?

[nmw2006]

about $350 including the PP, disc, new MOPAR TOB, and the new flywheel surface kit.

yeah my springs probably have > 100,000 miles on them, i believe our stockers are like 48lb springs, gonna find some aftermarket ones around 100lbs or so, probably from summit. Would like to see if some beehive springs for an LS1 would fit, since this is what alot of the 8v crew uses.

[Ondonti]

http://boostedmopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15802
one of the difficult things is how short our springs are.

If you find something share. The Starion springs already appear to be twice as strong.

Thats dang cheap for all the stuff you got.

[nmw2006]

Well got my new clutch in over the weekend, seems to be working out well. Pedal pressure is a LITTLE *cough cough* more then before, but I believe I'll get used to it. :nod: I will probably take it out to the track Friday to see what kind of difference it will make, should have a few hundred miles on it by then.

So far clutch seems smooth, no shuddering or chattering that I can feel, only thing I have to do with my aluminum flywheel is give it a little more gas or it will stall out on launch. I like it :clap:

[Ondonti]

I am reusing an ancient 4 puck in my daily with an aluminum flywheel and I hate it. Shudder city.
Hopefully yours keeps behaving. Bansheenut has gotten his 6 puck to shudder before, My 3 puck only did that when it was brand new and it had not grooved itself a nice contact patch.

[Shadow24]

my 6-puc only shudders if im trying to drive easy and slip it at low rpms. if im at or above 2000, it doesnt really shudder

[Ondonti]

Nathan do you have good motor mounts? i think the shuddering on my Spirit is partially because I am trying to avoid having the motor go "clunk" :P

[nmw2006]

I have a solid bobble strut and poly mounts on the front and passenger side, so my motor doesn't move at all :thumb:

I think that is part of the reason it is so smooth.

[nmw2006]

New best time from last night...

R/T - .187
60' - 2.300 - Best 60' previous was 2.411
1/8 - 9.887 - Hmm.. think I broke 10 for the first time :o
MPH - 70.91
1/4 - 15.404 - Best 1/4 mile previous was 15.674
MPH - 88.46 - Best MPH previous was 87.37

Seems like the new clutch is doing its job :clap:

I think Shadow24 has the video of us too...

[Ondonti]

I wan't to see what the springs do. Where did you order a set? I think we technicaly need 1.5 sets :P
I need some too! I finally have my rev's unlocked.

[nmw2006]

I ordered the conquest/starion springs directly from Schneider Racing Cams 6610 (http://schneidercams.com/6610valvespringset.aspx).

I tried to find some that would fit/work elsewhere but didn't have much luck.

I am hoping that our stock retainers/locks will work with these springs.

[Ondonti]

I am wondering if we can use Starion retainers so we can get titaniums...

[c2xejk]

I ordered the conquest/starion springs directly from Schneider Racing Cams 6610 (http://schneidercams.com/6610valvespringset.aspx).

I tried to find some that would fit/work elsewhere but didn't have much luck.

I am hoping that our stock retainers/locks will work with these springs.

Have you tried the valve springs yet? Did they make a difference.

I have been doing some valve spring searching and I think I have found a spring that would be a drop in upgrade to the stock spring and at ~$4/spring it is pretty affordable.

Still working on a beehive spring conversion... Most of my ideas right now will require some machining of the heads.

PS. Do you know the history of your heads? The only reason I can understand for you to be experiencing any valve float is if the heads have one or more valve jobs on them and the valve spring install height was not shimmed back to stock.

[Vigo]

Im curious about this too.. and the status of the car in general. :)

[nmw2006]

Yes, the springs have been in for several months now.

Initially the car seemed to want to rev much higher and quicker too.

Power seemed to pick up from about 5800-6000 and up also, but that is with my reground cams.

More recently I seem to have found a *mystery* issue with the car...it refuses to rev above 6500 and I have no clue why...could be my MS, could be a fuel issue, could be an ignition issue...but its too cold here to mess with it :( BRRRRRRR....

It just seems to flatline at 6500...starts breaking up 2-300 rpms south of there and just breaks up and generally runs like crap once you hit 6500.

PS @ ed...did you get my email with the turbo pics?

[Ondonti]

I hit 6700 rpms a few months ago on my last tuning drive with MS before the crank finally locked up (cracked when I was detonating before the MS install). No hesitation at all. I was actually cruising at 6000 rpms in 3rd gear messing with autotune and then went WOT for a moment...weeee. Hit 6700 on that short pull. Hit 6600 on another. No cutout or misfire or anything. What is your limiter set too? I had mine set to 7000 but never got near it.
What is your plug gap? Weak coil? Weak coil might have problems with rpms....?

Have you done any datalogging when this happens?

What you might do it run it off this 6500rpm problem for a few seconds and shut off the motor while its on that problem rpm. Pull out the plugs after you pull over. Check to see if they are wet?

EGT would probably easily give you an idea or wideband.

[Shadow24]

we have datalogged the breakup to try and figure out the issue. The coil has been replaced with another Blaster 2 High Vibration coil (didn't solve issue) plugs are stock gapped and the wires, cap and rotor have all been replaced.

In looking at the logs the other night, there was a fluctuation in the pulse width (up to over 1ms of fuel) coinciding with bits 7 and 8 alternating on and off. Upon further inspection, it LOOKS like its MAP noise triggering accel/deaccel enrichment. I haven't had a chance to look at NMW2006's accel settings lately but we either have to do a bit less MAP based accel or raise the MAP-DOT threshold to dial out the enrichment.


Regarding the cams and valve springs: We are pretty sure that his cams are set wrong using the stock gears and timing marks. i THINK they are advanced as the power is all down low and runs out by 5500 or so. it shows at the drag strip too. he can beat me off the line (for now, launch control + slicks FTW :) ) but once i get into the power i walk away from him. His MPH seems to suffer as well, especially at the top of 3rd where the cams are SUPPOSED to help. I believe NMW2006 is saving for some RPW cam gears to dial the cams in correctly

[nmw2006]

My limiter is set at 7500 :evil: Been there many times.....

Everything in the ignition has been changed, plugs @ stock gap .044 IIRC, wires, cap, rotor, new blaster 2 HV coil.

As far as I know there is nothing wrong with my MS, as electronics don't just fail at a certain RPM :) (I could be wrong on this as the ignition output transistor could be failing when switching too fast. Haven't got any definite answers on this idea yet...)

Fuel is what I'm thinking...bought a pressure guage to check that out yesterday...but this blasted motor has no Schraeder (sp?) valve on the fuel rail :banghead:

If my pump is weak or the filter is getting plugged or the regulator is bad, I could be hitting a wall where I simply run out of fuel at that high of an RPM.

Any clues as to where/how to hook up the fuel pressure gauge?

+1 to my cams being off timing..at least 4 degrees due to different centerlines on the regrinds. I also noticed that my fueling was weird on that datalog, but haven't been able to fix it yet.

[Aries_Turbo]

if the cams are advanced, that would definitely cause it to die up top.

Brian

[Ondonti]

Wonder why the cams behave like that...?

Try disabling accell/decell enrichment. Mine is turned off until I get more work done on my VE table. That would knock out one factor. Still, why would that table do anything when you are holding WOT (no TPS change)...???

Have you calculated what your injector duty cycle is at 6500 rpms and above?
There is no easy way to hook up a fuel pressure gauge on our cars because our fuel rails do not have a pressure check valve.

If your injector duty cycle is maxed then injector pulsewidth would get erratic...which could explain the problem. Weak fuel system is something you should pay attention to. You should change your fuel filter often anyways. I had serious problems when I let a clogged fuel filter stay on the car until it started to collapse and completely wreck fuel flow.
Change the filter regardless of other problems.

The difficult thing about fuel pressure checking is that you would need to see the pressure while you are driving at 6500 rpms. I have a gauge but its only useful for setting base pressure since its on the regulator. An electronic fuel pressure gauge would be really nice.

[nmw2006]

I know the cams are a problem, but not the primary one..after i put these cams in i could still rev it to 7500.

I will look into the datalog again for more information.

My accel enrich is 100% MAP based due to some noise on my TPS line.

I am thinking about cutting the fuel line just before the rails and adding a test valve so I can use a gauge on it...if the hose is long enough, i may be able to use it while driving...:eyebrows: at least stick it up onto the windshield or something.

Going to change filter anyhows

[Vigo]

Just tap into the pressure side fuel line with a T. I made one out of bits from home depot that my fuel pressure gauge (the gauge itself, not the schraeder valve) screws right onto, and i also bought a little cap/plug that screws in there so when i take the gauge off i just put the plug in and leave the whole shebang in there. Probly cost me less than $10 to build that out of brass fittings at home depot.

Also, harbor freight sells a fuel pressure test kit for around $10 that comes with a metal tee AND a plug, along with the gauge and all the other normal fittings. I got mine for $7.99 with a 20% off coupon.

I already had a gauge, but i bought it for the odds and ends. Im going to use the schraeder valve to hook up to my electric sender for my in-cab nordskog fuel pressure gauge for the aries.

[c2xejk]

If you rev it in neutral, can you get passed 6500?
What size injectors are you currently running?

On the email/PM, I got side tracked, I will get back to you on that tonight.

[nmw2006]

Nope, hits the wall in neutral too

Stock 19 lb/hr injectors now, but i have a set of 38 lb/hr to put in later.

[c2xejk]

Then it isn't the fuel pulsewidth getting too long.

My thoughts are:
-Cams moving further from ideal.
-MAP sensor issue.
-Calibration issue.
-MS issue.

If you have an older configuration, you might want to reflash the MS if you haven't already.
Does the MS have the ability to show what cell(s) it is pulling data from?

[Ondonti]

Is it possible for the distributor to have problems based on rpm? I know when 3.0 tachs get old they hiccup at 3000 rpms. Not sure what else can happen.

[nmw2006]

Does the MS have the ability to show what cell(s) it is pulling data from?

Yes it does, it has live feedback with a laptop hooked up. I have noticed that at high RPMs (ie. 5000+) I am much richer than I previously believed. At the point where it breaks up I am seeing about 10:1 on the wideband. Will try pulling some fuel to see if that is an issue.

From my datalogs, I am seeing about 7.8-8.0 ms of pulsewidth at about 85-87% duty cycle at the point where the motor breaks up. I know this is bad :wow1: but I will see if it drops when i lean out my tune.

[nmw2006]

Is it possible for the distributor to have problems based on rpm? I know when 3.0 tachs get old they hiccup at 3000 rpms. Not sure what else can happen.

I have moved the distributor from one stop to the other while adjusting the trigger offset in MS to compensate with no apparent changes to how it runs. I assume (possibly incorrectly) that this rules out any distributor limitations.

[Ondonti]

i really just meant if the distributor had something wrong with it.

Getting too rich at those RPM's can be causing misfire, especially in an n/a application where there is little heat in the air.

[nmw2006]

I changed the optical pickup a couple of weeks ago thinking this same thing.

[Ondonti]

btw did you change your clutch?

[nmw2006]

Well got my new clutch in over the weekend, seems to be working out well. Pedal pressure is a LITTLE *cough cough* more then before, but I believe I'll get used to it. :nod: I will probably take it out to the track Friday to see what kind of difference it will make, should have a few hundred miles on it by then.

So far clutch seems smooth, no shuddering or chattering that I can feel, only thing I have to do with my aluminum flywheel is give it a little more gas or it will stall out on launch. I like it :clap:

^^^ post #88 ... long time ago :D

[nmw2006]

I have been researching the "K27" that I got a while back...it appears to not be a K27 at all :mad:

Appears to be an "ebay" turbo, a cheap Garrett knockoff sold as who knows what.

From my measurements of the wheels and such it looks like a T3/T04E 46 trim with a 1.06 A/R, which will run out of steam at about 6.5k rpms or so on the 12v 3.0L. :(

Seems to be good to about 350 whp or so at 15lbs of boost or... it may never spool LOL.

I guess we shall see what comes of this, I am taking it to a shop today to have it checked out.

[nmw2006]

Well the turbo is trashed, has pretty bad shaft play in both directions. It was ran like this for awhile as the compressor housing is scored pretty bad by the wheel wobbling. :eek::wow1:

Looks like I need a new turbo :banghead:

[turbovanman²]

That sucks, :(

[87turbodance]

With my MS setup I noticed that my motor would break up when the timing would advance over about 38 degrees. I originally had my dizzy setup with a trigger angle of 10. I have since inverted the way the optical pickup connects to MS (connected the signal to XG1) and cut part of the side of my dizzy base off so I can get a trigger angle of 70 degrees. This gives me a trigger return of 5 degrees. This solved my advance problem. I haven't tried more than 45 degrees but I'm sure I can do more. I can rev cleanly to 7000 with no problems. I do get the occational tach spike that I need to work out. Do you have a copy of your Ve table and req fuel somewhere?

Here are my VE tables and Spark table:
VE Table (http://www.box.net/shared/o5gdjxnoxg)
Spark Table (http://www.box.net/shared/yp9lavn0m7)

My required fuel is 16.6.

I have plenty of fuel to go around with the stock 19lb injectors but I'm running N/A.

Here is my MSQ file:
MSQ (http://www.box.net/shared/zg6onvk1o7)
Keep in mind my setup is a MS1 Extra and stock everything except for 52mm TB and divider removed plenum.

[Ondonti]

Not sure exactly what you thought you were getting. Look at the backplate.

Its a KKK turbo. Thats why the compressor backplate mounting bolts are UNDER the compressor wheel. Garret turbo = bolt heads on the outside near the oil flanges.

Their is no scuffing on the compressor wheel. The to4e cover has ugly machining to make it fit the K27 compressor wheel. Ebay company mixing and matching parts.
There are posts all over saying thats what it is.
There is no scuffing on the turbine side. The play is very little, especially since there is no oil in the bearings. I don't think you have much experience checking turbo shaft play. I have held some TD turbos in my hands that scare you to think were recently on a car.

Even Simon has seen the pictures of that turbo while it was taken apart for inspection.
As stated in that thread, I thought it was a Garret turbo until I took it to High Tech turbo to install a larger compressor wheel setup and they said "sorry, thats not gonna fit this KKK turbo"
That meant it was the end of using that turbo since I owned a Garret diesel turbo which I could install my upgrade parts on.

It was advertised as a Garret turbo and thats what I thought it was when I bought it. Its just a KKK with a TO4e cover.

It spools, otherwise I wouldnt have any 100+mph traps on 5 pounds of boost with that turbo. My lighter Duster with bigger turbo actually trapped slower in the 1/8th mile on the same boost. And that was with 8-9:1 air fuel ratios. 82mph in the 1/8th before the rich fueling killed the top end HP. The large turbine housing does not throw "all the boost" right away so the car will not lose traction like my Garret small turbine housing turbo does (big wheel and small housing instead of small wheel, big housing). With a proper tune (not rich) it would have been much more responsive as well.

Its possible the compressor cover was "used" before it was installed on that turbo.

If you cant make the compressor wheel hit the housing with zero oil in the bearings, you will never be able to with oil pressure from the engine in there.

And then the fact that you got it for free. :rolleyes:

[Ondonti]

Alright!!! My turbo is on the way, finally. Kudos to Brent (ondonti) :love::hail:

I will be using the Borg Warner K27 as it is a fairly decent match to our 3.0L.

Hopefully i will be able to get this thing put together soon, but i start school again on Sept. 20th... :mad:

Also need to take the time for a tranny rebuild/new clutch + OBX since adding turbo = worn out, weak tranny explosion :yuck:


Your old post.

There is no such thing as a borg warner K27.
KKK is the brand. That is what Porsche uses. K27 is what 911 guys upgrade to.

Compressor wheels are aluminum. When they hit the compressor cover, they get SERIOUSLY damaged. That compressor wheel is not damaged. Its possible something got eaten by the turbo that scored it up but I really doubt that since the compressor wheel is still happy. I have been working on a friends HX40 that ate something and I had to polish up the compressor wheel because it got chewed up on the edges by something that got stuck between the wheel and the housing.

K27 is just what the KKK compressor backplate says. That was the first thing pointed out to me by the turbo shop.

[Ondonti]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=425994&postcount=119

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18681&highlight=ebay+turbo


http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5185/img2060yp5.jpg
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/898/img2061al9.jpg
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9246/img2063zn7.jpg
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7475/img2065fq0.jpg
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1782/img2068bf5.jpg
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7223/img2069sp5.jpg
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9327/img2070dq4.jpg
Here is a smaller k27 7006 map. Frank does not have this one on his calculator.
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/8162/k277006ns6.jpg
This is the K27 7200. I dont really know which turbo I have since the "5327" # shows up on both maps and none of the other numbers are on the map to indicate which I might have.
My impeller diameter is 2.25"
Exducer on the turbine wheel is 2.375"
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/9139/k27uy9.jpg

Here is someone else I just googled who has the same turbo. The same numbers on the backplate.
The only difference is that this version has a to4b cover on it (i think thats what it is). Again, my guess is they are trying to hit up a different market with the same exact turbo.
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8481/group2tw8.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2514/group3kg8.jpg

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216103&postcount=39

Do you realize this is a public forum that has records of everything that has ever transpired? You really need to watch your mouth. Speaking vaguely about things pretending I did not give you the turbo when its very clear in this very thread that YOU wanted it.

This has always been an ebay turbo since that is where it was purchased. My current turbo was purchased on ebay as well. You can see that 2 years ago I still wanted to use this turbo in my Duster to do more testing with it and nothing is wrong with it. The Posts above prove that.
That turbo works, my injector driver sure doesn't.

[Ondonti]

Notice there are some tiny chips on the leading edge of the compressor blades, but no scratches across the edge of blades? The wheel never hit the housing, something else (dirt) might have, but the markings on the housing really just seem like sloppy machine work since they don't even match the compressor wheels shape (not centered in the housing like the compressor wheel is.



I clearly state 2.25" inducer diameter

Here is the inducer diameter of a 46 trim...
http://group5.rpmware.com/turbonetics/turbonetics_compressor_wheel/g-51043.aspx

TO4E Compressor Wheel
Big Shaft
46 Trim
2.003" Inducer Diameter
3.00" Major Diameter


Here is the much larger 57 trim. Your K27 is even larger, thats why the compressor map flows more air.

TO4E Compressor Wheel
Super Series
Big Shaft
57 Trim
2.230" Inducer Diameter
3.20" Major Diameter

Shadow on this board is making 500whp on a SMALLER 57 trim that also has a worse compressor map.

That is a 500whp capable turbo, though I would never run it at 30psi boost because its a cheap turbo.

[nmw2006]

Brent, please take a chill pill, I never said anything bad or negative about you, I only stated some measurements that I found.

Borg Warner IS the current producer of the K27: Borg Warner Turbos (http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/products/turbochargerCommercialVehicles.aspx)

With an inducer size of 2.219" and an exducer size of 3.297, this turbo IS a 46 trim.

With an turbine inlet area of 3.94 square inches and a radius from the center of the wheel to the center of the inlet of 3.69", it DOES have an A/R of 1.06.

I never knew you had a thread about this turbo on here, thanks for the info. It was my impression that this was a "pure" K27, not a cross, so I was a little shocked to discover it wasn't. However, nowhere was I pointing blame at you, and I feel that you overreacted and took what I said the wrong way.

You are correct that the wheels do not contact the housing even without oil, I got a little excited when i noticed that the shaft moves about a 1/8" in both directions and took it to a local dyno/speed shop. He informed me that it was bad and needed rebuilt (probably because he wanted some $$ for all I know). However I believe you and will install it as is.

I am learning about all this stuff a little at a time, I am sure that I have been wrong, but I am also sure that you did not learn what you know overnight either.

[Vigo]

Thank you for responding calmly and not choosing escalation. :) Its nice to be part of an online forum where things dont go to complete ---- over minor misunderstandings. Let's go back to talking about your car:)

[Ondonti]

A 46 trim turbo is not 2.219" its 2.003" huge difference.

A 57 trim is 2.230" Close enough to both mine and your measurements.

You have some very wrong turbo information

That turbo has never been quite as tight as my rebuilt garret but you also won't be throwing 30psi boost at anything right now. I've never even run close to that after 4 years.

It doesn't blow oil out any seals etc. I can only hope its ballanced properly. But my friends hx40 that cost a lot more then the junkyard used turbos crapped itself likely from imbalance from a supposed good turbo retailer.

But he also had a massive boost leak and that over spun the turbo. Always avoid boost leaks. NEVER drive the car in boost if you have a boost leak because you are forcing the turbo to spin extra rpms to make up for the lost flow.
Large leaks can cause the turbo to spin enough rpms to completely frag itself even if your boost gauge only reads 10-30psi.

I always worried about that turbo's play but when running it never had problems. Same HX 40 ate something twice when it was running with just a screen over the inlet. Heavy compressor wheel damage.

The compressor is big enough to make 500hp. I would never try to do that though until you prove it at lower hp levels. One thing is that the 3.0 ingests more air then 4 cylinders so less boost is required for the same hp level, and since you have megasquirt you can rev 1000 rpms higher to extend your powerband. I didnt have a powerband problem on that turbo, but that motor had stock cams/heads so the powerband was more biasted to the 3000-5000 rpms range.

My garret turbo is much sloppier in the bearings then the used holset someone gave me. I don't know if there are differences between brands. When things get hot they expand so I don't really know. My Garret also used to blow oil out the exhaust housing from crankcase pressure (blowbye). I think turbos are more forgiving then people think. My garret stopped blowing oil when I decreased the crankcase pressure.

But turbos can never be subjected to overspinning unless you already have a replacement on hand. Especially one where you are not sure about its quality.

Read that thread about those ebay turbos. Some people found low quality turbine wheels, of which the one you have is not. The other issue is bearing quality. I have no idea about that. Its a KKK center section so its not similar to the other turbos in that thread. It might be that a simple bearing change to a high quality one would tighten things up. Rebuilds usually = replacing blown seals etc, but nothing is wrong in that category.
I would just inspect the wheel every once in awhile to see if its hitting anything. 5-12ish psi boost is going to be really easy on the turbocharger with no leaks.

I actually took my Garret back to the shop when it was blowing oil but the shop was honest enough to say the turbo was still good and it was just a crankcase problem (pressure inside the return line). My Garret does have a lot of play in it so thats why I thought it was a problem. The thing with that situation is that they knew the real reason it was blowing oil so the moment I got it back form rebuild and it kept blowing oil they would be in trouble. Your situation there is no way they can be held liable for wasting your money because you don't have anything actually failing right now that would resurface.

If the guy thinks he can rebuild it, that means rebuild parts are available if ever needed.

[Ondonti]

Guy complaining about play in his new k04 with no oil in it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UenG_rBqyF8&feature=related

Then here is a turbo with no oil, guy says he added oil and it was fine. Oil drains quickly out though. I can always force my Garret to have large amounts of shaft play if I push hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgN63qhY22w&feature=related

here is the same turbo with oil in it
Remember this is still with zero oil pressure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zr-dJp7fw8&feature=related

Then this holset. The side to side play is not really extreme, but listen to the end to end play, very very bad. turbos can go bad side to side, end to end, or both. If properly balance, side to side is not a big deal. Also another way to frag a turbo that has loose tolerances is surge. 3.0 won't surge that turbo though, specially with the large turbine a/r.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlQfxGeonoE&feature=related

[nmw2006]

Here is the formula for calculating wheel trim, and an example using a To4E 60 trim.

Garrett Turbo Tech (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech102.html)


[(minor wheel diameter)x(minor wheel diameter) / (major wheel diameter)x (major wheel diameter)] x 100= compressor / turbine wheel trim

T04E 60 trim (inducer = 2.290", exducer = 2.950")
[(2.290)(2.290)/(2.950)(2.950)] x 100= trim
(5.2441/8.7025) x 100= trim
.6026 x 100 = trim
60= trim

Using my turbo:

(inducer = 2.219", exducer = 3.297")
[(2.219)(2.219)/(3.297)(3.297)] x 100 = trim
(4.9240/10.8702) x 100 = trim
.4530 x 100 = trim
45.3 = trim or about 45-46 trim

[nmw2006]

Hey all,

Just a little update on this project.

I have been working out of state for the last 8 months or so, so my spirit project has been kinda put on hold.

Took it to the track with some slicks last week and ran a 15.4 on my first pass in almost a year and my first pass ever on slicks. Second pass netted me a 15.2 which is my best pass ever.

However, i feel that this is about the end of my spirit project, my interests have shifted a little in the past while.

Fortunately, I am starting another project :evil: Project Phoebe :evil:

It will still be a SOHC 3.0L, it WILL be turbo, and it WILL be ready for next season.

Ok, thats enough spoilers :nod:

[Vigo]

Well, does that mean the spirit will be taken apart or is it staying whole?

[nmw2006]

Spirit SRT6 will be staying whole, it is currently my fun DD. Nothing wrong with it except i killed 3rd gear at the track a while back. Now it grinds going in no matter what (even granny shifting). I either killed the synchro, or the actual dog teeth on the engagement ring, not sure which, and i need to drive it everyday so no tearing into it until i have something else to drive.

[nmw2006]

Getting geared up to go on Phoebe, decided to go with a 3speed A670 w/ OBX. Unfortunately, i know absolutely nothing about rebuilding an auto, never-mind building it for performance duty. The (1997) core 670 i have from a caravan is gonna need a full rebuild. Hopefully I am going to be using a RMVB and Amsoil Supershift Type F. From what i have seen all info on this site about building a performance auto seems very scattered, with most of it coming from abandoned, archived websites. Any newer info or buildup threads would be a huge help, but that would probably be too much to ask for.

For the time being I guess I will go to town tearing it down with the help of the ATSG manual, i plan on doing all the bearings and whatnot while I'm in there. Any help on this topic would be much appreciated.

Nate

[Ondonti]

They don't exactly have a knowledge center article on building the 3 speed :(
Keepin secrets.

[Aries_Turbo]

most folks went to turbodiy.com or when it used to be omniturbo.com but the site has been down for a long time. i have old info from that site but its not the latest but its a start. ill see if i can upload it sometime.

ask simon, im sure he'd give out his info. try to get him to make an article. :)

no one is keeping secrets, all the info is scattered around the board. the manual valve body info was what i wanted from the turbodiy site. i should have saved a copy of the webpage when it was still up but i forgot.

simon has manual valve body diy info but he hasnt uploaded it yet..... i bugged him a while ago but he hasnt done it yet cause he is a slacker. :)

brian

[Vigo]

Well there are instructions to convert to a manual valve body in one of the shift kits you can get for those trannies, but it keeps the normal shift pattern which its tricky unless you buy a ratcheting shifter.

And i dont recommend ratcheting shifters because a misadjusted one caused me to flip a cj7 once.

[nmw2006]

I already have a Turbo-Action RMVB that i will be using, what i need is some sort of list of parts i need to buy to rebuild this thing...i've been looking at alto as they seem to be making a high-performance kit that uses the same friction materials as most other (RWD) race transmissions.

I know i need at least the following...
Seal/Gasket kit
Friction Clutches/Steels kit
Friction Bands
Bearing kit (i'd like to replace all the bearings in this thing while i have it apart)
Shim/Washer kit (to reset preloads after changing bearings)
some (Sonnex?) part that fixes the reverse band strut
Filter and (hopefully) a replaceable pan gasket
Whatever special parts (extra steels/clutches to upgrade clutch packs + certain sized snap rings) i need to build it to hold power

Anything else i forgot/need?

---------- Post added at 11:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

Oh...probably a dumb question...

Is the kickdown band needed/used after converting to RMVB?

As in does it need to be installed?/Does it have any use once the kickdown linkage is unhooked?

[Vigo]

Both bands are always needed. The kickdown CABLE you can do away with.

If you want to replace all the bearings and bushings you're going to need a shop press, bearing puller, a variety of bushing drivers, and a lot of trial and error. Even people who are good with the bushings sometimes go through several to get one set in there and fitting correctly. Realistically, having to replace every single bushing and bearing would turn a $1500 trans job into a $2500 trans job if you were paying someone else to do it. It's like doubling the work you have to do.

Personally, i would only replace what is bad as far as bushings and bearings, except ALWAYS replace the pump bushing for the torque converter snout. The roller thrust bearings are easy to replace but i cant remember if a 670 even has any.. bad memory hehe.

[nmw2006]

I'm talking main (roller) bearings. There should only be like 6 IIRC, 2 on the main shaft, 2 on the output shaft, and 2 in the diff.

[Vigo]

The main shaft is not what you think it is, there is no one continuous shaft going from the pump to the transfer gear. also, i believe there is only one big bearing in that top section so perhaps there are only 5 big bearings in total.

[nmw2006]

Tranny is on hold for a bit, i got my new (lol) motor from shadow24v and am in the process of getting it fixed up to go into project Phoebe.

Money is a serious issue at the moment so my hope is to put this car together for this year with parts i have sitting around. Gotta console the old racing bug a little, and the only way that's going to happen is by going with what i have.

So... for now Phoebe will be 3.0L/A670 N/A and non-lsd...:mad:

Current list of what i need to finish

1. Finish the chassis.. some poly bushings, custom motor mounts, auto conversion, etc.
2. Finish building the motor... install cams, SR 6610 springs, button things up
3. Finish rebuilding the A670... install RVMB, finish building clutch packs, find some new bushings to replace the ones i destroyed :yuck:
4. Finish MS2 and gauge installs... run necessary extra wiring/lines, add some relays, etc.
4. Put everything together :nod:
5. Go fast (somewhat) again :amen:

Hopefully in a month or so i will have a dedicated, running race car.

[nmw2006]

Spirit is sold as of 1/12/13. Project Phoebe is still on...eventually.

EDIT: And broken...new owner grenaded the trans less than 2 weeks in...After I beat the daylights out of it for 5 years. Fail.

EDIT2: And resold to someone in Akron with parts and also the owner of a Daytona IROC.

[nmw2006]

I bought a DOHC/5spd '97 Neon Sport coupe this spring and have been abusing it at the autocross and rallycross courses in stock form. Fun times :evil:

Kinda consoles the racing bug but it fails in the torque category. :yuck:

I actually drug Phoebe out of here cave for the first time in about 2 years the other day, but other than that no real progress. Just no money, I'm working 60+ hours a week to break even.

[turbovanman²]

I bought a DOHC/5spd '97 Neon Sport coupe this spring and have been abusing it at the autocross and rallycross courses in stock form. Fun times :evil:

Kinda consoles the racing bug but it fails in the torque category. :yuck:

I actually drug Phoebe out of here cave for the first time in about 2 years the other day, but other than that no real progress. Just no money, I'm working 60+ hours a week to break even.

Bummer, sounds like you need a new direction to earn money.