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View Full Version : Why is there so much oil in my CYL's? EPIC FAIL.


shelbyplaya
03-12-2009, 10:49 PM
The motor is a hybrid 2.5l 16v. It has around 3000km's on the bulid with new EVERYTHING!

I ran a cold compression test befor I pulled the motor apart and it was dead even at 170psi in all 4. However, I did notice that my head studs where loose and acuple of them took a few turns befor they where snug. Not sure if they came loose when I broke nuts free or not I dont know.

I cant for the life of me figure out what happend or why their would be so much oil in all 4 cyls. The valves are wet also. I looked at all the valves and none of them have oil come out of the seals and the strange thing is that their dosent appear to be any oil in the exhaust ports at all.

The MLS head gasket looks ok. just a cuple cracks that you'll see in the pic but they are inside the combustion chamber.

Here's the pics.

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860089_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860088_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860090_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860092_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860093_large.jpg

And last pic... This is what happends when a spark plug breaks apart during a race :(

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860091_large.jpg


I'm at a total loss of what I should look at or do here..... :mecry:
Austrian Dodge
03-13-2009, 04:39 AM
i could imagine that you had a problem with your oil control rings, i've seen this on an engine before.
compression test was fine, but the car was burning oil and when the head was taken off, we found oil on the pistons.
although the plugs were all black and the top of the pistons showed signs of burning oil also.

beside that there could be 2 other reasons: valve stem seals (which you said were OK), and the HG leaking oil (but leaking oil to ALL cyl. sounds weird).

how about leaking oil galley plugs on your dohc head, or even the block?
turbovanmanČ
03-13-2009, 04:58 AM
Its coming from the intake or valve seals, not the rings. Thats way too much oil in the chamber and the piston top has an even burn.
shelbyplaya
03-13-2009, 09:44 AM
Its coming from the intake or valve seals, not the rings. Thats way too much oil in the chamber and the piston top has an even burn.

I checked the top side of both intake and exhaust valves, they all are verry clean and dry. I was running a crank case evac at the time so what oil that would haev came from the PCV was dumped directly into the exhaust after the down pipe.


I didnt drive the car any more after I noticed all the smoke and shite.
contraption22
03-13-2009, 11:50 AM
I checked the top side of both intake and exhaust valves, they all are verry clean and dry. I was running a crank case evac at the time so what oil that would haev came from the PCV was dumped directly into the exhaust after the down pipe.


I didnt drive the car any more after I noticed all the smoke and shite.

If there is backpressure after in the exhaust, the crankcase EVAC won't work very well.
2.216VTurbo
03-13-2009, 12:09 PM
What was the highest EGT's you saw? It would take a bunch of heat to peel back an MLS gasket like that, or powerful knock? I'd pull those pistons for a better look at the skirts/rings plus I'd like a look at the rod bearings if you did get a bunch of knock...
turbovanmanČ
03-13-2009, 12:47 PM
I checked the top side of both intake and exhaust valves, they all are verry clean and dry. I was running a crank case evac at the time so what oil that would haev came from the PCV was dumped directly into the exhaust after the down pipe.


I didnt drive the car any more after I noticed all the smoke and shite.

Also, what came thru the motor, one piston has marks all over it?

It could have come up the rings thru excessive crankcase pressure.
shelbyplaya
03-13-2009, 03:18 PM
Also, what came thru the motor, one piston has marks all over it?

It could have come up the rings thru excessive crankcase pressure.

sparkplug broke up
shelbyplaya
03-20-2009, 09:17 AM
anyone else have any other ideas?
turbovanmanČ
03-20-2009, 01:42 PM
Have you checked your crankcase evap system like I told you?
shelbyplaya
03-22-2009, 11:30 PM
Have you checked your crankcase evap system like I told you?

i have no way of testing. the head and the motor are apart. I cant put the motor togeather, then put it in the car to start it to test for vacume
turbovanmanČ
03-23-2009, 02:52 AM
Have you taken the pistons out yet?
shelbyplaya
03-24-2009, 07:21 PM
No i havent. They are still in the block.
shelbyplaya
03-26-2009, 09:47 AM
I looked at the MLS head gakset and noticed large amounts of oil between the layers.
mock_glh
03-26-2009, 10:58 AM
Looks like detonation damage to me. It beats up the edge of the head gasket and breaks the tips of the spark plugs. Your top rings will probably have the moly chipped off of them. And 170 psi is pretty high cranking pressure for a turbo engine running gasoline. What's your compression ratio?
turbovanmanČ
03-26-2009, 12:52 PM
Looks like detonation damage to me. It beats up the edge of the head gasket and breaks the tips of the spark plugs. Your top rings will probably have the moly chipped off of them. And 170 psi is pretty high cranking pressure for a turbo engine running gasoline. What's your compression ratio?

You could be onto something, that would explain the sudden oil burning and the condition of the head gasket. Makes sense.
shelbyplaya
03-26-2009, 07:39 PM
We havent been able to figure the CR out. it's suppsoed to be around 8.0:1 with a .020 over wiseco pistons.

dosent the CR and compression test not have much in commen?
turbovanmanČ
03-26-2009, 07:47 PM
We havent been able to figure the CR out. it's suppsoed to be around 8.0:1 with a .020 over wiseco pistons.

dosent the CR and compression test not have much in commen?

170 cranking is about close to 9.0:1.
shelbyplaya
03-26-2009, 10:17 PM
170 cranking is about close to 9.0:1.

gayness, but still workable. less tiing and a bit more fuel I guess.

But we'er still tryingt o figure out how that much oil got past the rings. This happend when i was running 7psi (over the 15psi i was running) and 2* less timing as well.......
2.216VTurbo
03-27-2009, 11:02 AM
gayness, but still workable. less tiing and a bit more fuel I guess.

But we'er still tryingt o figure out how that much oil got past the rings. This happend when i was running 7psi (over the 15psi i was running) and 2* less timing as well.......


Well, the scratches/gouges in the cyl walls look pretty deep in the pics, are the pics misleading? How do the scratches hold up to the fingernail test? When are you gonna pull the pistons out so we can do more than guess at it? We need to see the skirts and rings (preferably removed from a the worst piston and placed in the bore with some good lighting underneath...)
shelbyplaya
03-27-2009, 07:35 PM
Well, the scratches/gouges in the cyl walls look pretty deep in the pics, are the pics misleading? How do the scratches hold up to the fingernail test? When are you gonna pull the pistons out so we can do more than guess at it? We need to see the skirts and rings (preferably removed from a the worst piston and placed in the bore with some good lighting underneath...)

All the cyls pass the finger nail test, cant feel and thing. I guess i'm gonna pull a piston tomorrow and get some pics. Sadly, no one is worse then the next.
domni058
03-27-2009, 08:22 PM
Hi, i had same problem with my motor low miles oil in each cylinder 160 psi across board, its oil rings, hone with new rings 140 psi, no problems. t-3 motors take diff oil rings. exrta oil in cylinders bring up compression! also oil in cylinders brings down tha octain of gas, that can cause detnation.
shelbyplaya
03-27-2009, 11:17 PM
OK. here's some pics. I removed the #1 piston tonight. I can run my finger nail along the cyl wall and get my nail caught in the groove on the wall :(

here's the pics.

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860098_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860097_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860096_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860095_large.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4707/1721/24265860094_large.jpg


This makes me sad :(
dds78910
03-28-2009, 12:46 AM
Huh! My #1 cylinder on my 8v did the same thing in te same spot, it smoked like a pig.:(

What are the little dings from on top of the piston?
2.216VTurbo
03-28-2009, 01:23 AM
Huh! My #1 cylinder on my 8v did the same thing in te same spot, it smoked like a pig.:(

What are the little dings from on top of the piston?

I'd say spark plug ceramic:(
shelbyplaya
03-28-2009, 10:21 AM
I'd say spark plug ceramic:(

yep, thats what it is alright :(
turbovanmanČ
03-28-2009, 03:07 PM
Looks like detonation damage as Mock said. Your looking at a rebore my friend, :(.

I have some .020 blocks that could work out for you and you might not need to rebore, just hone and go.
shelbyplaya
03-28-2009, 04:41 PM
Looks like detonation damage as Mock said. Your looking at a rebore my friend, :(.

I have some .020 blocks that could work out for you and you might not need to rebore, just hone and go.


I might have to take you up on one of the blocks. But at the moment i cant afford to do it so we'll have to put it on the back burner.
turbovanmanČ
03-28-2009, 05:14 PM
I might have to take you up on one of the blocks. But at the moment i cant afford to do it so we'll have to put it on the back burner.

I understand. I would need you to measure your pistons, then I can measure the bore and see if we are ok, clearance wise.
shelbyplaya
03-28-2009, 08:28 PM
they are .020 over..... The specs should be on that sheet i posted a cuple posts ago?
turbovanmanČ
03-28-2009, 08:30 PM
they are .020 over..... The specs should be on that sheet i posted a cuple posts ago?

You still need to measure the piston, production tolerances, ;)
shelbyplaya
03-28-2009, 09:52 PM
The pistons aprears to be 3.437in (87.31mm)
turbovanmanČ
03-29-2009, 04:13 AM
The pistons aprears to be 3.437in (87.31mm)

Appears doesn't cut it, you need to measure it or have someone do it, just like you don't look at a crank and go, it appears to be a standard crank, ;)
shelbyplaya
03-29-2009, 09:43 AM
thats what my cailper said :P
turbovanmanČ
03-29-2009, 02:25 PM
thats what my cailper said :P

Ok, thats good then, I'll check my block and see, :thumb:
shelbyplaya
03-29-2009, 04:14 PM
The spec of the pistona to wall clearnece is supposed to be 0.003". Thats the spec I got from the guy I got the motor from.
mock_glh
04-02-2009, 12:02 AM
The pistons aprears to be 3.437in (87.31mm)


thats what my cailper said :P

That's standard bore size.


The spec of the pistona to wall clearnece is supposed to be 0.003". Thats the spec I got from the guy I got the motor from.

I saw the spec sheet and it does in fact say .003 but apparently it wasn't enough by the scuffing on that piston. Most forgings call for .005/.006.

Everything I see here says lean condition and major detonation.
turbovanmanČ
04-02-2009, 01:15 PM
That's standard bore size.




Well if he's running those in a .020" block, then we have the problem figured out.
shelbyplaya
04-02-2009, 06:52 PM
yes i was running into detination issues. Whitch Is why I lowerd the boost and all that stuff. But I guess it wasent enought. The motor is being put into a bin then put into storage for a futire rebulid.

I'm really gonna miss the 16v and I wish I didnt have to go back to an 8v :'(


Thank you guys verry much for the help. I am verry greatful!