properly installing arp head studs?

[TurboII]

Okay whats the proper way to installing ARP studs on the block. Do i install the stud all the way the reach the bottom of the thread of the block or ?. sounds like a stupid question....i know but i just wanna make sure. also whats the proper torque.


Joey

[GLHNSLHT2]

bottom the stud out then back off 1/2 turn so there's some float room. I torque the nuts to 85ft lbs, fire the car up and let the fan come on and go off once, then shut the car off and let it cool completely, then I retorque them to 85. Didn't do the heat cycle the 1st time I put them in and the head lifted under boost and sprayed coolant out the side. After doing the retorque sequence I've never had another episode of that.

[turzbo]

last time i did it i,used some bearing lube on the threads and put them in finger tight then torqed them to whatever the box said, 80 fp pops up in my head but im sure thats not right.

[TurboII]

what is the thread on the block 11mm x1.25? i wanna buy a chaser to clean up the threads

[johnl]

That's the beauty of studs - the re-torque.
Over torqueing may cause gasket failure.

With a composite gasket, the bolts or studs at the outside corners (if over tightened) may compress the gasket at the very outside edges/corners of the head more than it should be compressed and thereby warp, or bend, the head, causing a lift or less pressure in that area of #1 and #4 where the gaskets commonly fail. It doesn't happen in the center of the head because the gasket has no where to go, no where to squeeze out - as it does at the corners.

With a multi layer steel gasket, such as the Cometic, the outer studs at the corners can't squish the gasket (since it is stainless steel) as much as they can a composite gasket and so there is less ability to bend the head and lift it in that area of #1 and #4 where they leak.

So, my theory is - studs and a MLS gasket at 80lbs and then re-torque after heat cycling.

[turzbo]

think it was a fel pro, we used studs, never re-torqed them and its still together9 months later

[turbovanman²]

I have never retorqued either, to each their own, :thumb:

[slasky]

I have never retorqued either, to each their own, :thumb:

+2
I have never retorqued either.

[johnl]

Yeah, I don't always either. It is the best practice though, but only with a multi layer steel gasket and studs and obviously not with the stretch to yield bolts.

[Captain Chaos]

think it was a fel pro, we used studs, never re-torqed them and its still together9 months later

I call B.S you can't have a felpro live, it says so in the TD Bible.

[R/Tony]

I wasnt aware of the need to re-toque the studs, Why is that for?
Is it really needed?

[turzbo]

i have run fel pro in my 2.5 at 16psi and it held, buddy ran a 2.5 at 12psi and at one point 22 and its still together

[GLHNSLHT2]

Mine are always a little loose after a heat cycle. I call it good insurance since it's a 10 min job.

[TurboII]

what is the thread size of the block? 11 x 1.25?

[turbovanman²]

what is the thread size of the block? 11 x 1.25?

11x1.50.

[johnl]

Mine are always a little loose after a heat cycle. I call it good insurance since it's a 10 min job.

True, but when your lookin at an RTV style valve cover . . . .

[puppet]

Mine are always a little loose after a heat cycle. I'd skip the 1/2 thread back out step you're doing. The studs should be bottomed out. A "free" stud can slip/back out during heat cycles. There's a lot of psi on those lubed threads. ARP probably has it figured out that hand tight = seated "just right" after final torque.

[johnl]

Since the part of the stud that's in the block is meant to stay still and not twist during assembly, it seems to me that hand tight is fine, and why both putting moly on it?

Then there's the discussion about the studs being too long and should be cut slightly . . . . . .

[turbovanman²]

I'd skip the 1/2 thread back out step you're doing. The studs should be bottomed out. A "free" stud can slip/back out during heat cycles. There's a lot of psi on those lubed threads. ARP probably has it figured out that hand tight = seated "just right" after final torque.

I back mine off 2-3 threads otherwise they bottom out against the bolt hole, no issues with it them coming loose. Torqued is torqued.

[Shadow]

I've always bottom'd the studs hand tight, never started retorquing till we were running over 30psi boost. (we still use the 006 MP gasket) Any of you guys have to clean up the holes in the head (slight bore) so the studs don't bind? (prob older G-heads) And do you attemt to lift your head off the studs? I keep seeing pics of ppl with studs installed in the mtr with no head on. I've always dropped the head on and wound the studs in after.

[TurboII]

where can i get moly lube and how much to use. what brand should i use too?

[contraption22]

where can i get moly lube and how much to use. what brand should i use too?

I use ARP moly lube, available most places that sell ARP hardware.

[GLHNSLHT2]

True, but when your lookin at an RTV style valve cover . . . .

People still run those? :)



Then there's the discussion about the studs being too long and should be cut slightly . . . . . .

It's the bolts that are too long.


I've always bottom'd the studs hand tight, never started retorquing till we were running over 30psi boost. (we still use the 006 MP gasket) Any of you guys have to clean up the holes in the head (slight bore) so the studs don't bind? (prob older G-heads) And do you attemt to lift your head off the studs? I keep seeing pics of ppl with studs installed in the mtr with no head on. I've always dropped the head on and wound the studs in after.

Well without retorquing I lifted the head the next morning at 12psi. I use the 006 gasket too. +1 to dropping the head on THEN putting the studs in. I remember back in the day though a certain person with a 10 second kcar and a couple other people saying studs suck cause you can't get the head on without loosening the motor mounts and rotating the engine fwd. Too funny.

[johnl]

People still run those? :).

Yeah me:nod:, if you wanna keep the correct '86 GLHS cover



It's the bolts that are too long. .
Doh!



Well without retorquing I lifted the head the next morning at 12psi. I use the 006 gasket too. +1 to dropping the head on THEN putting the studs in. I remember back in the day though a certain person with a 10 second kcar and a couple other people saying studs suck cause you can't get the head on without loosening the motor mounts and rotating the engine fwd. Too funny.

Spray copper coat on a Cometic, place head, drop studs in, torque to 80, re- torque to taste.

[TurboII]

okay now what is the tread size that goes on the head side? 12x1.5?

[BadAssPerformance]

M11 x 1.5 into the block... English like 7/16 on the head side?

[crazymadbastard]

FWI, the 92 fsm says 65 plus 1/4 turn, bolts should reach 90lbs of torque after the 1/4 turn otherwise replace the bolt. I realize this is spec is for stretch bolts, consesus says 80lbs on the studs and it holds, maybe split the difference and do 85?

[turbovanman²]

FWI, the 92 fsm says 65 plus 1/4 turn, bolts should reach 90lbs of torque after the 1/4 turn otherwise replace the bolt. I realize this is spec is for stretch bolts, consesus says 80lbs on the studs and it holds, maybe split the difference and do 85?

80/85/90, pick your poison.

[crazymadbastard]

80/85/90, pick your poison.


90-going for broke ! on a felpro too!

[johnl]

Over tightening a composite gasket may pinch the outside corners. That is, the composite can crush at the four corners where it has somewhere to go, to squeeze out. Read your parts. The gasket will show carbon on the fire rings between 1 and 2 and between 3 and 4; mike the gasket and see if it is thinner at the corners than in the middle. That's why I like the cometic.

[turbovanman²]

Over tightening a composite gasket may pinch the outside corners. That is, the composite can crush at the four corners where it has somewhere to go, to squeeze out. Read your parts. The gasket will show carbon on the fire rings between 1 and 2 and between 3 and 4; mike the gasket and see if it is thinner at the corners than in the middle. That's why I like the cometic.

I've cranked MP gaskets to 85-90 and never had an issue with squishing, knock on wood, :o

The felpro is a graphite gasket and I could see that getting squished.

[Captain Chaos]

Bump so I can find it easier, lol.

[TheCanadian007]

Extra bump: I'm buying a set of ARP studs, this info is useful!

Cheers, TheCanadian

[turbovanman²]

Over tightening a composite gasket may pinch the outside corners. That is, the composite can crush at the four corners where it has somewhere to go, to squeeze out. Read your parts. The gasket will show carbon on the fire rings between 1 and 2 and between 3 and 4; mike the gasket and see if it is thinner at the corners than in the middle. That's why I like the cometic.

I can't stand Cometic, I've had 2 now keep leaking on me, even with copper spray. Put an 005 in, never looked back, even leaning it out so bad I damaged plugs and pistons.

[janus]

i recently installed ARP studs in my 2.5. i used an old headbolt and cut slots in it to use as a chaser and it worked like a charm. i was stupid enough to install the studs before putting the head on though :D never even wasted a thought about it so it didn't occur to me i could also install them later with the head on lol. it was hard for me and my buddy to lower the head with manifolds and turbo back on the engine and find the holes to put the studs in :clap:

oh and i drove it two days before retorquing them, but i'm only running 10-12 psi so for you folks that's prolly not even being referred to as boost yet :p 70 lb-ft works fine for me. from what i'm reading i'd think 90 would really be the absolute maximum.

[TurboII]

i re torqued my studs to standard specs

Joey

[turbovanman²]

i re torqued my studs to standard specs

Joey

What is standard specs?

[minigts]

what is the thread size of the block? 11 x 1.25?

Just take a head bolt and cut a notch in it and that will work. There is a picture somewhere the site where I did this. If I can find it, I'll post. Used a dremel to cut the notch and took about 5 minutes. Looks very similar if not identical to what you'll pay $15 for.

EDIT: I must give credit to DodgeZ for his mentioning this to me. :thumb:

[22shelby]

+1 on he old head bolt trick, i have 2 of them in the tool box just for cleaning threads. when i did my studs i made the same mistake ( head must be placed befor installing studs:banghead:)

i did the factory torque sequance ( the 3 torques # spec then 1/4 turn). i did however run the studs all the way , by hand no tools, so if i have any issues thats the first place im going to check.

i too use cometics gasket.
i spoke w/ Flat Out Group on there gaskets and they mentioned to me about the different typs of metals each gasket maker uses, they recomended copper spray for ALL types of head gaskets esp. MLS.
they also told me to drill all but one rivit on the gasket, open it up like a fan, and spray every layer.

cometics .074 on a 2.5L w/ ARP stud and a Ghead 20+ passes this summer and no issues
oh and thats been at 24 PSI on a 160K SBE:thumb: ive actually been tring to blow this motor up (w/o being a retard) and she still lives WELL.

now if i could get a damn FPR o-ring to seal we'll be all good.


my .02 cents carry on

[TurboII]

what is standard specs?

45-65-65*

[thedon809]

i did the factory torque sequance ( the 3 torques # spec then 1/4 turn). i did however run the studs all the way , by hand no tools, so if i have any issues thats the first place im going to check.
From what I have learned, only torque to yield bolts need to be torqued to angle.

[22shelby]

i did the retorque procedure and they checked out at 85 pound. dead on all of them not even 1 pound yay or nay

[blk86trbo]

Yesterday I made and used the headbolt/tap, worked great. I would suggest cleaning the threads up with a wire wheel after cutting the notch.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee39/blk86trbo/89Daytona059.jpg

[Reaper1]

Good info in here!