16v conversion vs 2.4 conversion

[daytonaturbo87]

For you guys who've done the 16v conversion, when it comes down to the $$ at the end, would I be better off doing a 16v conversion or just buying a 2.4?

I've got a 89 2.2 T2 I could rebuild and do a 16v conversion while I'm at it or I could score a 2.4 out of a stratus/breeze from the junkyard for 200 bucks, rebuild it and upgrade the internals to the turbo spec pieces. Which way do you think I would be better off? Like I said I already have the 89 T2 but I could probably sell it and offset quite a bit of the 2.4's purchase price. Or I could just yank a 2.4 top end from the yard and work with the block I already have.

Which way would I be better off?

[t3rse]

I haven't done a hybrid, but I just finished my 2.4 swap more or less, and I think the hybrid route would be easier, cheaper, and easier to service.

[shelbyplaya]

Hybrid. the cost of everything was just right in my case ;)

you also dont have to worrie about changing much of anything to fit it in your car, it's pretty much plug and play kinda thing.

[rbryant]

I haven't done a hybrid, but I just finished my 2.4 swap more or less, and I think the hybrid route would be easier, cheaper, and easier to service.

Why would the hybrid be easier to service?

The 2.4 requires custom motor mounts, a tranny bellhousing mod, some simple starter mods (which I feel I documented well), and a distributor adapter (ok so I supply those and of course would like to sell more so consider this a bias on my part).

The Hybrid requires external oil lines, extra machining of the head/block, custom cam gears so I would say it is more or less a wash cost wise depending on if you do the machine work...

You can also drop a used SRT4 engine (and guys are constantly wrecking them) in rather than having to do another full custom build. The SRT4 also has better oil pans that are less prone to leaks and lots of little advantages.

Plus if you blow up a 2.4 block/head you can just drop in a new SRT4 engine without repeating all of the hybrid work with the plugging of holes, drilling of holes for external lines, etc because all of the extra work is external bolt on stuff rather than internal engine modifications.

Running AC is also possible with the 2.4 swap (ok so I live in the hottest place in the country so that might only apply to me)

-Rich

[t3rse]

Because you have to pull the damn engine half way out of the bay to get to the timing belt and the crank pulley presses on instead of bolts on so it is a ----- to pull off and put on and if you run a standalone that triggers from the crank pulley, like moi, then you have to broach the pulley and key the crank which is also a ----- because the lazy bastards didn't bother to key the crank from the factory.

[rbryant]

Because you have to pull the damn engine half way out of the bay to get to the timing belt and the crank pulley presses on instead of bolts on so it is a ----- to pull off and put on and if you run a standalone that triggers from the crank pulley, like moi, then you have to broach the pulley and key the crank which is also a ----- because the lazy bastards didn't bother to key the crank from the factory.

Ok so changing the timing belt might be harder I will give you that. I will have to take a look to see if I can get the puller on the crank pulley or not with it in the car but I will take your word for it that you can't.

Most standalones (including megasquirt) can read the SRT4 crank trigger though so I think you are a special case on that one because you are running an older version of the standalone.

You could have also used the HEP on the distributor or stock electronics to avoid that. Most people that do this swap won't be running a custom crank trigger.

-Rich

[t3rse]

You can get the puller on with the motor in the car, but the pulley webbing is soft metal and boogers easily so you can't remove it too many times before it gets damaged.

[rbryant]

You can get the puller on with the motor in the car, but the pulley webbing is soft metal and boogers easily so you can't remove it too many times before it gets damaged.

Are you using the puller that is designed for the pulley? I rented one from autozone that uses the inner portion of the gear to pull it so there are no real concerns about damaging it.

The tool looks like this:

12759

Here is the pulley (unfortunately it is the back side but) you can see where the tool is supposed to attach:

12760

Many of the underdrive pulleys also have a center section that the pulley bolts to so that you can unbolt all but the inner hub on them just like the TD pulley. :)



-Rich

[t3rse]

My pulley most definately does not have those ridges to grab on to...03 SRT motor. If you've seen the pic with the aluminum insert, it isn't a problem now because I can bolt a puller to the pulley face now, but it was before that was there.

[rbryant]

My pulley most definately does not have those ridges to grab on to...03 SRT motor. If you've seen the pic with the aluminum insert, it isn't a problem now because I can bolt a puller to the pulley face now, but it was before that was there.

The SRT4 pulley is different but I thought it still had a place for the puller. <shrug>

Did you include accessory pictures in the link you gave me yesterday? I would be interested to see how your PS, alternator, etc worked out.

-Rich

[Austrian Dodge]

Because you have to pull the damn engine half way out of the bay to get to the timing belt and the crank pulley presses on instead of bolts on so it is a ----- to pull off and put on and if you run a standalone that triggers from the crank pulley, like moi, then you have to broach the pulley and key the crank which is also a ----- because the lazy bastards didn't bother to key the crank from the factory.

ok the pulley is a PITA, no doubt! but i'll be running a standalone too, that triggers from the crank, and i can't see it beeing more difficult than mounting the 60-2 triggerwheel to the TM pulley.

thats how did it on the 8v engine:
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/794/medium/DSC02994.JPG

is that just a srt thing, that the crank is not keyed? i have '96 2.4 where i still need to pull the crank sprocked, but it looks to me the crank has a key.

you're right, timing belt changes are a littler harder than on a 8v or hybrid, but when you ever change the timing belt on a '96 peugeot 406 diesel, the 2.4 timing belt is a piece of cake :lol:

i decided to go full 2.4 because the block seems to withstand a lot more beating (especially with that bedplate).
so far it seems like an easy build, but i can't tell exactly as it's still in progress.

[86turboz]

+1 on the Hybrid...I am in the middle of my 2.5 hybrid swap

[t3rse]

is that just a srt thing, that the crank is not keyed? i have '96 2.4 where i still need to pull the crank sprocked, but it looks to me the crank has a key.


no 16v (2.0 or 2.4) is keyed from the factory

I just looked Rich and I don't see any pics without the trigger insert installed as can be seen here: http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/motor_complete%20002.jpg

[rbryant]

no 16v (2.0 or 2.4) is keyed from the factory


The accessoory pulley isn't keyed but I think the timing belt gear is.

-Rich

[t3rse]

Correct, I should have stated this more clearly, but what I meant is that no 2.0 or 2.4 has means, stock, from keeping the accessory pulley from wandering which is a huge problem if one wants to time the car from it. Also remember that the stock pulley has a rubber dampener between the inner part and drive ring so don't mount a trigger to the outside of the pulley as it is not directly attached to the crank, though I think this only applies to 2.4s.

[Austrian Dodge]

i still haven't looked deeper into the trigger setup on the 2.4, but i will go 60-2 again for sure.
looks like i'm going to have to mount it directly to the crank pulley somehow.

what ecu are you running t3rse?

[mboyek]

2.4 swap IMO.

Didn't the srt-4 have a crank trigger on the crank itself? The neon DOHC cam sensor is supported in mega-squirt, and the stock HALL pickup is one adaptor plate and wire set away from stock electronics. That's 3 easy options. Only 2 are supported w/a hybrid.

2.5 hybrid didn't stay plug and play for me because all the harnesses needed to be moved. The only thing that didn't move was the alternator/distributor harness and the oil sending unit wire. Everything else was lengthened or shortened. If you can't fab up an intake mani you will need to relocate the oil filter.

I would like parts swappability of a 2.4. If I damage my head I need to modify a new one to bolt on. If I damage the block, again needs to be modified to use a new part. 2.4 just piece it together.

A timing belt change is a wash. I can only imagine how much more of a pita it is, but seriously, how quick will you get 60k miles on your hybrid engine? I can almost guarantee something will be broken or need modifying requiring engine removal before I ever get to timing belt change time on my hybrid.

Don't forget the hybrid came about pre-srt-4 stuff. Now 2.4 and srt stuff is abundant. For some common blocks are drying up. Seems like a logical progression. If common blocks were free and 2.4 stuff was $$ I would suggest a hybrid. But its not.

[mboyek]

Just thinking oil change. 2.4 filter in the wheel well. Maybe a pita, but the easy access on the front of the commonblock leaks dirty oil all over the alternator harness and the heater hose. Long term I like the 2.4. That's not considering remote oil filter setups however.

[t3rse]

SDS em3 which requires spark distribution via distributor....2.4 timing belt is 1000x harder than hybrid using the SRT motor plate...it isn't about how long will you run it, but more so how long till you want adjustable cam gears, or even cams...want to pull the motor to do a cam swap? I'm not saying the hybrid is easier for everyone, and what you (above) stated is exactly why I went that direction...parts....but for me, the hybrid route would have been much easier, though it is too late now.

[Austrian Dodge]

but you're triggering from the crank? what trigger setup has to be used with the SDS?

rich, whats that pulley insert?

[t3rse]

custom hall effect comes with standalone and you have to figure out how to mount (before I mounted the magnets in the Al insert):
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/MOTORIN_halleffect.jpg

[rbryant]

Just thinking oil change. 2.4 filter in the wheel well. Maybe a pita, but the easy access on the front of the commonblock leaks dirty oil all over the alternator harness and the heater hose. Long term I like the 2.4. That's not considering remote oil filter setups however.

The SRT4 oil filter is on the back side of the oil pan and runs perpendicular to the car so it isn't in a bad place like it is on the stratus oil pan.

-Rich

[rbryant]

custom hall effect comes with standalone and you have to figure out how to mount (before I mounted the magnets in the Al insert):
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/MOTORIN_halleffect.jpg

How important is the accuracy of the crank trigger really compared to running a standard distributor? Did you do it for accuracy or sequential fuel injection?

I mean you are running the distributor on the cam anyway so you could have also just triggered the standalone from the distributor HEP (either the turbo or standard TBI one would work depending on how fancy you get) too if we really want to keep things simple... I suppose that does limit you to batch fire though but that is generally not considered a big thing when running for power rather than emissions.

-Rich

[Austrian Dodge]

How important is the accuracy of the crank trigger really compared to running a standard distributor? Did you do it for accuracy or sequential fuel injection?

I mean you are running the distributor on the cam anyway so you could have also just triggered the standalone from the distributor HEP (either the turbo or standard TBI one would work depending on how fancy you get) too if we really want to keep things simple... I suppose that does limit you to batch fire though but that is generally not considered a big thing when running for power rather than emissions.

-Rich

t3rse, thats a good looking setup.
i plan on getting a pulley hub made for the stock pulley, so that it'll just "fill out" the empty space there. similar to yours, but drill and tap 4 holes and mount the 60-2 trigger wheel on the hub (no magnets).
i'm going to make a bracket for the sensor that bolts to the stock a/c bracket, or were the stock a/c bracket bolts to the block.

remembering how tight the pulley has been there, and what PITA it was to get it off, i don't think keying the crank for it will be much nessecary. the only thing you have to keep in mind, is when removing the pulley you'll have to measure out TDC again. but that could be achived with some markings, or a micrometer.

i'll document my build anyways, so i'll post up pictures within the next weeks/months.

rich, with a crank trigger setup you wanna make sure that the ECU knows EXACTLY were TDC is, otherwise it'll fire the ignition coils X amount of degrees BTDC.
so your timing tables would be off a certain amount of degrees.

with that signal alone you can't run sequential injection, you need a cam (sometimes referred as home) signal also. after the ECU triggers the cam signal, it starts with the fuel injection sequence.
running a batch fire injection the ECU also needs to get a cam signal, otherwise it wouldn't know when to start the batch.

btw: you can always modify a distributor that it spits out 1 signal per engine revolution (2 revs on the crank), to simulate a cam signal (like i did before):
http://www.rsc.at/friendsgarage/daytona/pic/2608/big/DSC02992.JPG
our stock distributor has 2 magnes, one for crank signal, one for cam signal...i remember my old TII daytona was running batch fire injection, were as the 92 2.5 iroc was already sequential injection.

only multipoint injection doesn't need a second signal, but with 700cc injectors and bigger, a bada** cam...you'll have problems to get the car idling well.

hope i could help to see things a little better

[t3rse]

If you are triggering off the pulley you MUST affix the pulley...I learned this from a 10 second neon that kept blowing up motors because the pulley would slip ever so much and mess up timing...it might seem sturdy but it will move.

The distributor is very sloppy compared to a fixed trigger wheel for timing, but regardless of that I used the SDS supplied hall effect, which I could have modified the dist to use it, but once again it is very sloppy in comparison. Even stock there is a few degrees of slop.

I am using 1300cc injectors at 56 psi with batch firing and it idles perfectly smooth though a tad high, mainly due to the 75mm TB being a pain to adjust...no IAC.

[Austrian Dodge]

there may be another work around instead of keying the crank...
the crank sprocket has threaded holes all around (i guess it's a M5 thread), there may be a way to get a pulley hub made that is drilled and tapped all through the pulley and use the threads on the crank sprocked.

i'll work something out and let you know what i did...

1300cc? d*mn thats big. why not staging injectors?

[t3rse]

Once again, older standalone which doesn't support staged injection without some hacking...and injectors these days are good enough to get good atomization at low rpms even with really high flowing units.

[Austrian Dodge]

anyways, 1300cc's @ 56psi flows some serious amount of fuel :thumb: :thumb:
have you already put down some numbers with that setup?

[t3rse]

Just runs...have driven around the block, starts up at cold temps and drives off immediately, but the real tune is yet to be determined. I have to paint it before I start to boost it up good. Cold start, idle, and low boost tune is money. In fact, my DD broke today. The tie rod end snapped, so even though I have 5 functional cars, I only have my DD and the barely running Omni here, so I'm going to have to load the GLH up with the jack and tools and take it a few miles down the road and fix the DD. BTW, the Omni is no where near ready to drive down the road..oh well.

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/primer%20004.jpg
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/primer%20002.jpg
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/primer%20007.jpg

[Austrian Dodge]

although i've seen the mock up pics, i'm still wondering were you hid that IC ;)

5 cars, noone is running ... thats a TM's life, been there done that LOL

good luck fixing your DD and beeing mobile again!

[t3rse]

I fixed it in a parking lot....tie rod end rotted and fell apart...good thing it happened in the parking lot and not on the highway.

[t3rse]

man am I diluting these threads...lol

Rich: finally found a pic of the intake
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/rustbullet_rad_various%20004.jpg

i/c during mockup:
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/tank_cover_mockup%20007.jpg

[Austrian Dodge]

in the end i keyed the crank, was easier to do than the idea in my head of fixing the pulley + trigger wheel