holset he351vgt

[snoman]

anyone that is running a 3351 with the electroninc VGT controles how did you handle them?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170301405051&indexURL=0#ebayphotohosting

[Anonymous_User]

I have not heard of anyone anywhere utilizing those turbos on other applications. Not saying it hasn't been done, I just haven't heard of it yet. Thats the major reason they are so cheap to buy.

[turbovanman²]

MS might be able to control it. I was considering trying one, I would hook up a potienemeter or similiar to control the vanes and run an external wastegate, that way, I could have nice spool up for daily driving and raise up the lag for drag racing. Don't know if i want to spend the money as it could be a waste.

[rbryant]

I think it would need an external wastegate AND something to control the vanes.

Holset wastegates are set at something like 30psi so the vanes would be similar and even at full open I bet there would be huge boost creep.

-Rich

[RJ138]

I think it would be a hassle to install unless you have a custom exhaust manifold. The center section is huge and I could see there being issues with oil supply and return if you can't get the box to fit right. I could be wrong though, I have never seen one in a car or truck before, only on Ebay.

I wonder if the VNT cars can control these? I take it this turbo is controlled different?

[turbovanman²]

I think it would be a hassle to install unless you have a custom exhaust manifold. The center section is huge and I could see there being issues with oil supply and return if you can't get the box to fit right. I could be wrong though, I have never seen one in a car or truck before, only on Ebay.

I wonder if the VNT cars can control these? I take it this turbo is controlled different?

Same size as the regular HE351 I would assume.

These are electric VNT's, not vacuum.

[rbryant]

Same size as the regular HE351 I would assume.

These are electric VNT's, not vacuum.

The vaccum is still controlled by a PWM electric solenoid...

Either way didn't the VNT cars have enough trouble controlling their own turbos? I never had a VNT car but I thought they were pretty temperamental about controlling the boost to even when stock but I could be wrong.

-Rich

[RJ138]

Same size as the regular HE351 I would assume.

These are electric VNT's, not vacuum.

Except there is a giant box on the center section.;)

I figured they were controlled different, I couldn't remember how the VNTs were controlled.:o

[turbovanman²]

The vaccum is still controlled by a PWM electric solenoid...

Either way didn't the VNT cars have enough trouble controlling their own turbos? I never had a VNT car but I thought they were pretty temperamental about controlling the boost to even when stock but I could be wrong.

-Rich

Yes, but the Holsets have a solenoid ON the turbo, not vacuum controls like the 2.2 VNT.

I think they worked ok stock but start changing stuff and thats when its an issue.

[rbryant]

Yes, but the Holsets have a solenoid ON the turbo, not vacuum controls like the 2.2 VNT.

I think they worked ok stock but start changing stuff and thats when its an issue.

The point is that having the electronics on a solenoid doesn't necessarily mean that it can't control the electronics on the turbo if they are both PWM and they are controlling basically the same things.

The vacuum is just a middle man in the process but the control is basically the same because it is still PWM. The vacuum might delay things slightly but because it is a feedback system that might not even matter.

I doubt it would work but the fact that the 2.2VNT controlled a solenoid instead of the turbo directly doesn't prove that it wouldn't work. I would be more worried about the number of controls, the sensitivity of the controls, etc.

-Rich

[snoman]

ok....in laymans terms....Good F*@#in' luck....
gotcha!
I am building a custom header, that isn't even a second thaught but a HUGE turbine is going to be a must. My inspiration is the BSX and SMP. I'd really like to follow those footsteps but I am not afraid to take a drastic turn here or there. I wanna run with the big dogs! but I only have minimal resources (although I am becoming a dam good welder, alum still kiks my ---). I am Wanting to try some new tricks on older ideas and see where I end up.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

[glhs0426]

On the exhaust side this thing is HUGE compared to an HE351. If I get the two in at work I'll post up a picture comparing the two. I don't ever see one of these fitting in a normal FWD turbo Mopar engine compartment.

John

[bgbmxer]

there might be something on the vwvortex about controling them but im not positive and let me know if you figure it out im very interested in the vnts myself

[Shadow]

I have a sneaking suspicion that a really good electronic boost controller might do the trick. :nod:

[bgbmxer]

not sure but its a path that has not really been explored a whole lot with are cars atleast with bigger than stock vnts

[snoman]

"the little research I've done, the APEXi AVCR has a 5v output you can build a map to, so you could in essense build a controller map based on rpm, I have heard of people controlling VGT's in this way, but you'll still have to have an external gate to keep it in check. " from Z31Performance.com

and maybe one of you more electronically talented guys can sort though this and see if it makes more sence.......about 1/2 way down they talk about a 14b controller
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/313476-holset-turbos-results-only-complete-installed-systems.html#post151664285

[snoman]

If I can get one off ebay heres what I am gonna try
Author
aero
1.0 BAR

Posts: 297


Re: 95 TSI AWD Project VGT Holset no 56k
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2008, 01:57:11 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Loserkidwac on September 19, 2008, 08:32:05 AM
Ok so now I'm searching for one of these turbos

how hard was it to modify the electronic VGT controller to make the wastegate actuator work? Since you are using the actuator technically you could use a boost controller to adjust when the vains open correct? have you messed with this to see if it has any affect on spool? or is it fairly good where you have it set now?


The electric actuator has been removed. I haven't been able to determine what kind of signal the stock ECM sends the unit to move it, and what it sends back for position information. I removed the electric motor, and epoxied the coolant holes in the flange that are meant to cool the actuator. That leaves an arm with a gear on it, there is a hole in the arm that is pretty close to the distance from the pivot as a standard internal wastegate arm. I put a pin in there, and attatched a 14b wastegate actuator to that pin. Then you have to find somewhere to mount the head of the actuator thats solid. That will vary by your application, and what actuator you use.

Here is the electric actuator.

Internally it appears to use a stepper motor, but there are a LOT of electronics inside between the motor and the 4 wires that come out of the unit.

If there is anyone that works on these trucks, or maybe for holset and could get some info about these actuators it would make it alot easier to figure out.

Here is the arm when that actuator comes off, the 2 non rusty looking areas on the flat are where the epoxy fills the coolant holes. Also you can see where the wastegate actuator arm is attatched.



Yes if you put a boost controller on the VGT actuator pressure source you could make it reach the other wastegates set boost at lower RPM. It shouldn't change initial boost much though.

[bgbmxer]

definitly have a wastegate because from what i remember vnts seize up from the carbon of a gas motor but on diesels they work better. and if there is a arm on it then i wold control it with vacume somehow that would push or pull it to change the pitch with vacume and boost. just my idea and have not looked into it yet

[Shadow]

If I can get one off ebay heres what I am gonna try
Author
aero
1.0 BAR

Posts: 297


Re: 95 TSI AWD Project VGT Holset no 56k
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2008, 01:57:11 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Loserkidwac on September 19, 2008, 08:32:05 AM
Ok so now I'm searching for one of these turbos

how hard was it to modify the electronic VGT controller to make the wastegate actuator work? Since you are using the actuator technically you could use a boost controller to adjust when the vains open correct? have you messed with this to see if it has any affect on spool? or is it fairly good where you have it set now?


The electric actuator has been removed. I haven't been able to determine what kind of signal the stock ECM sends the unit to move it, and what it sends back for position information. I removed the electric motor, and epoxied the coolant holes in the flange that are meant to cool the actuator. That leaves an arm with a gear on it, there is a hole in the arm that is pretty close to the distance from the pivot as a standard internal wastegate arm. I put a pin in there, and attatched a 14b wastegate actuator to that pin. Then you have to find somewhere to mount the head of the actuator thats solid. That will vary by your application, and what actuator you use.

Here is the electric actuator.

Internally it appears to use a stepper motor, but there are a LOT of electronics inside between the motor and the 4 wires that come out of the unit.

If there is anyone that works on these trucks, or maybe for holset and could get some info about these actuators it would make it alot easier to figure out.

Here is the arm when that actuator comes off, the 2 non rusty looking areas on the flat are where the epoxy fills the coolant holes. Also you can see where the wastegate actuator arm is attatched.



Yes if you put a boost controller on the VGT actuator pressure source you could make it reach the other wastegates set boost at lower RPM. It shouldn't change initial boost much though.

Do you have a link to this guy's build?

[bgbmxer]

so it is controled by a wastegate like any of are stock turbos for the vains and then use a external gate to limit full boost. i will be buying one only problem is that it will probably be super lagy with a stock head with no porting but who knows. i do want to tear one apart and take a look at the posibilities

[snoman]

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=96770.0

[86turboz]

I have not heard of anyone anywhere utilizing those turbos on other applications. Not saying it hasn't been done, I just haven't heard of it yet. Thats the major reason they are so cheap to buy.

There is a DSM guy that is using one with, from what he said, good results. He was using a wastegate can and a boost controller to actuate the vanes... from my understanding, no one has sat down and figured out the signals for the actuator.

[snoman]

update:
i bought one off ebay
I'm gonna try the wg actuator to run the veins

[86turboz]

Good luck man, you definately need to post the results and how you like it

[bgbmxer]

sweet. what mods do you have to the motor you will be using it on?

[snoman]

Motor is still being worked up. It's gonns be a 2.2 neon headed hybrid. Most likely "posted" block, forged everything 4 bolt mains. severly p&p head 1mm os valves insane cams. Custom in/out mani's. Air 2 Water ic.

Still taking suggestions on this build. The head is already being worked on. My Tig showed up today so I'm gonna start to hone some skills so I can do the intake and header. Thaught about block fill now I am leaning another way, still have to hash it out with my shop.

if anyones got any input nows a good time...........

[86turboz]

what TIG rig did you get? and what do you mean by "posted" block?

[bgbmxer]

ok wats the power goal of the engine also

[snoman]

I got a "universal" tig attachment for my ranger 9, only thing is lincoln forgot to tell me I need a 1400$ attachment to do alum.....does steel great though!

heres the link where they're talking about a "posted" block
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29157

as for HP, I really don't care as long as it gets me there. I am figuring 600+ minimum.
I want to get set up this year and chase 8's next year

[bgbmxer]

i was planning on using it on a ported eight valve for more of a road race setup that would have a wider powerband. but either way im curious to see the capibility of the turbo setup

[bgbmxer]

i would also like to find out more info on posting and filling blocks im kinda new to that

[snoman]

Me too!
I have learned a lot in the 2 months I have been here. Search for key words like "filled block" and such. You have to take what you get with a grain of salt. Some people here are very opinionated and closed minded. If you can't find the answer ask the question... so far noone here has laft at me which is more than I can say for my welding forum!

When I get the build going I will post a progress thread

[bgbmxer]

i agree with the oppinions and egos some of these people have but you learn who to take advice from and who not to.

[Aero]

Hello guys, the "dsm" guy with the VGT. Just here to watch the VGT stuff and offer any help if can.

[86turboz]

Hello guys, the "dsm" guy with the VGT. Just here to watch the VGT stuff and offer any help if can.

Hey Aero do you mind posting the link to your write-up on your VGT setup?

[Aero]

Sure.

Here is the original thread, which won't likely be updated since the site changed owners last week and started banning people who have been around forever among other things. Rick P., appears he owns the other mopar forum too. The thread still has plenty of good information though. The link snoman posted got changed when he changed to vbulletin so here is the new one.
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/f3/f7/95221-95-tsi-awd-project-vgt-holset.html

In the future it will be updated here.
http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0
and on my own forum in the VGT section.
http://www.turbotalk.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=4
There is a turbo info thread there also. As well as stuff on other VGT turbos, and threads I've found from searching of my own in the VGT section.
http://www.turbotalk.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=174

[4cefedomni]

WICKED!
Welcome to the forum Aero!
I just signed up on your forum a couple weeks ago and posted some stuff about a powerstroke vnt turbo i have.
I also just bought a he351vgt that i now plan on using instead.
Thanks for all the great info!

[snoman]

Aero thanks!
I was just whining about losing that thread earlier.
I am sure I am going to be bugging the crap outa you
My turbo and head flanges are here! so hopefully this weekend I can start fabbing!!!!!

[Aero]

WICKED!
Welcome to the forum Aero!
I just signed up on your forum a couple weeks ago and posted some stuff about a powerstroke vnt turbo i have.
I also just bought a he351vgt that i now plan on using instead.
Thanks for all the great info!
I remember you. :thumb:


I'll try and answer you guys questions.

[bgbmxer]

Sure.

Here is the original thread, which won't likely be updated since the site changed owners last week and started banning people who have been around forever among other things. Rick P., appears he owns the other mopar forum too. The thread still has plenty of good information though. The link snoman posted got changed when he changed to vbulletin so here is the new one.
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/f3/f7/95221-95-tsi-awd-project-vgt-holset.html

In the future it will be updated here.
http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0
and on my own forum in the VGT section.
http://www.turbotalk.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=4
There is a turbo info thread there also. As well as stuff on other VGT turbos, and threads I've found from searching of my own in the VGT section.
http://www.turbotalk.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=174

have you dynoed that thing yet im really interested to see the torq curve

[t3rse]

well fag --- Rick P finally locked non members out of the first forum...and I had only made it half way through :mad:

[Aero]

That would be why I won't be updating that thread anymore. When he took over he removed the ability to edit your own posts when something needs fixed or updated.
Just a ploy to use our hard work and information to force people to sign up and make him more money off of traffic on top of random bans.


No it hasn't been dynoed. It hasn't run since last fall when the bearing spun, haven't had the time to work on it due to full time school and my job. On top of that unfortunately the nearest AWD dyno is about 3 hours away.

[bgbmxer]

yeah i understand the school and work thing all my friends are always supper busy doing both. i just wanna see the torq curve and when it started spooling and when it made full boost etc

[ShadowFromHell]

well, I dragged oe of these home from work this week :)

Ive been reading all the info I can find on controlling one of these beasts, and am wondering since the a/r of the exhaust is adjustable (right?) couldn't you just find the sweet spot and leave it? I was thinking of building a bracket similar to our alternator adjusters? I know having the VGT would be awesome, but this would be simpler. Of course, you would have to use a external WG.

Im thinking of using one on a 3.0... would it work?

[Aero]

well, I dragged oe of these home from work this week :)

Ive been reading all the info I can find on controlling one of these beasts, and am wondering since the a/r of the exhaust is adjustable (right?) couldn't you just find the sweet spot and leave it? I was thinking of building a bracket similar to our alternator adjusters? I know having the VGT would be awesome, but this would be simpler. Of course, you would have to use a external WG.

Im thinking of using one on a 3.0... would it work?

Yes you could fix it in position if you are willing to sacrifice the VGT function. I have done it with two of them on a 8.3 cummins diesel. They are on load constantly in the application so spool wasn't an issue we just used them like a normal turbo, but instead of swapping turbine housings we just added a bracket with allthread so it could be set wherever we wanted.

It was on an HE431V that was originally brake air actuated, but doing it to a HE351VE would be very similar.
Here is a picture of it.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE431VTI/P1251448.jpg

And whether you control the VGT or not you will still need an external wastegate, the VGT will not keep boost down on a gasoline engine.


Here is spool from a MS datalog.

VGT fully closed, and in 4th gear so its pretty high load. This is with no boost souce connected to the VGT actuator wastegate.
8.3:1 2.4L 4g63/64 hybrid
Stock head
Stock cams
Stock intake
Non intercooled
An 8" long exhaust.
1800 1psi
2000rpm 3psi
2500 8psi
2600 10 psi

With a boost source connected it spools slower since the actuator starts cracking it open earlier. Some kind of boost controller would help with that, but I never got a chance to try.


Oh and as kind of a teaser. Most consider the HE351VE to look pretty big. I got this one off ebay, and my dad adapted it to our other 8.3 Cummins.
An HE551V its next to one of the HE351VE's.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE551V/P2080090.jpg

And the "small" HE351VE next to a stock 1g DSM 14b.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/Car/P8021422.jpg
:p

[t3rse]

Do you still have the controller? I can probably hack it.

[bgbmxer]

well, I dragged oe of these home from work this week :)

Ive been reading all the info I can find on controlling one of these beasts, and am wondering since the a/r of the exhaust is adjustable (right?) couldn't you just find the sweet spot and leave it? I was thinking of building a bracket similar to our alternator adjusters? I know having the VGT would be awesome, but this would be simpler. Of course, you would have to use a external WG.

Im thinking of using one on a 3.0... would it work?

if your not going to use the vgt for the way it works then you might as well just get a regular turbo of a similar size and be done with it.

i think the reason we all want to use a vgt is for its capibilitys abouve what you get with a regular turbo like faster spool of a small turbo but the topend of a bigger turbo which you get with the vgt

[snoman]

Do you still have the controller? I can probably hack it.

I'll send you mine if you think you can make it work....I want it back if it works though!

Hey, any of you guys that are dragging these home from work got the tail housing for it?
mine came without, the only ones I can find on ebay they want like 50$ for and thats too much! I'd like to use the stock vband at the housing and weld my pipe on from there.

[t3rse]

I would plan on sending it back working or not

[ShadowFromHell]

Mine has the tail, but I plan on using it. I think I might have saw one the other day, Ill take a look ;)

[snoman]

I would plan on sending it back working or not

if it doesn't work we'll save shipping back and can it

[snoman]

Mine has the tail, but I plan on using it. I think I might have saw one the other day, Ill take a look ;)

you'd be my hero and my new best friend!:thumb::love::D:nod:

[t3rse]

I don't need the pigtail....;)

...and it is "have seen" and not "have saw" unless you "have sawn" something with a cutting instrument

[Aero]

Mine came with that elbow and I couldn't use it. I did use the V-band clamp itself though.
The radius was too long and would hit my alternator. Its sitting 2 hours away at the moment at my parents farm. If I make it home I'll bring it back if anyone still needs it. Kind of planning on going later this week or next weekend since I'm on spring break.

[snoman]

heck yeah, that would save me that much more fab work.....I think.:D
I still haven't mocked mine up yet, I may run into a similar problem.....space!:mad:
oh yeah thanks for the english lesson....kratike mie typein:confused:

[t3rse]

:D :amen:

[Aero]

If you are still interested I picked up that elbow. Just PM me.