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lancer402
01-29-2009, 10:11 PM
Been trying to figure out how to use the 3 drain holes in a srt4 head. I plan on connecting them just under the head after I cut the tube off.

Not sure what I am going to us to seal them in, maybe JB weld!
Also not sure if I will flare the tubing for fittings or solder copper fittings on.
Sure as hell don't need the solder to melt.

The tube goes all the way up in the head, as you can see in one picture.

Any body tried this? Bending the tube was a little tricky. I first ground out the side of the hole in the head. then carefully bent the tube. if you go to far the tubing wall necks down to a thin spot, you can see this happen. Went through about 6 pieces. I am using the type L copper tubing NOT type M(thinner wall)

The tube does not contact the block when the head is on the block. there's about 1/32" clearance.

Ok let me have it!

andy

andy

shelbyplaya
01-31-2009, 02:11 AM
I've entertained that idea in the past with kinda the same thing. I'll try to hunt down the pics of what i used, that hardest part is 'modding' the head gasket.

2.216VTurbo
01-31-2009, 02:37 AM
Local guy did that a couple years ago on his swap, not only did it work fine but it looked kinda cool with all the y fittings and pipes soldered/brazed together. MockGLH where's those pics of yours??

lancer402
01-31-2009, 11:51 AM
I've entertained that idea in the past with kinda the same thing. I'll try to hunt down the pics of what i used, that hardest part is 'modding' the head gasket.

Yeah I like to see more pics of what you did. and how you modded the head gasket too. i was figureing about cutting out part of the hole where the tube goes through rather than making it larger.

thanks

black86glhs
01-31-2009, 05:33 PM
What if you countersink the drain holes about 1/8". You could silver solder the the copper tubes to the head. The countersink will allow the solder to have more surface area to grab and won't bulb out and hit the block.

lancer402
01-31-2009, 06:22 PM
What if you countersink the drain holes about 1/8". You could silver solder the the copper tubes to the head. The countersink will allow the solder to have more surface area to grab and won't bulb out and hit the block.

I'm not familiar with silver solder, how is it different from regular solder? or is it the same? either way I think you would have to get the head pretty hot and all that aluminum is going to take away heat fast. But it is definately something to consider.

Andy

black86glhs
01-31-2009, 07:14 PM
I'm not familiar with silver solder, how is it different from regular solder? or is it the same? either way I think you would have to get the head pretty hot and all that aluminum is going to take away heat fast. But it is definately something to consider.

AndySilver solder is high temp/high pressure solder. You heat up the copper until it glows a faint orange. Yes the aluminum would need to be heated up, but it should not hurt it.
Without knowing anything about it, it would be better to use an epoxy to seal them to the head. The countersinking idea would still be a good idea to increase the surface area to glue with interfering with the block.:thumb:

Birddog
01-31-2009, 09:24 PM
SilPhos and a MAPP torch and you're good(sorry I haven't tried it on a cylinder head yet but on distroution blocks it seems to be good)! Thanks for not using M tube..

Keep in mind copper tube tends to corrode from the inside out though.

Pat
01-31-2009, 11:24 PM
Soldering the tubes into the head? What happens you when you take it apart and want to resurface the head?

black86glhs
02-01-2009, 12:02 AM
Soldering the tubes into the head? What happens you when you take it apart and want to resurface the head?Desolder it.

lancer402
02-01-2009, 01:15 PM
Soldering the tubes into the head? What happens you when you take it apart and want to resurface the head?

Pat,
Thought about that myself too. I practiced with epoxy on an old head and I drilled the copper tube out. Comes out pretty easy when you need to resurface the head. You would have to remake the three copper lines though, so it is more trouble.

andy

lancer402
02-01-2009, 01:16 PM
SilPhos and a MAPP torch and you're good(sorry I haven't tried it on a cylinder head yet but on distroution blocks it seems to be good)! Thanks for not using M tube..

Keep in mind copper tube tends to corrode from the inside out though.

Wouldn't copper lines with oil inside last a pretty long time? I could see water corroding them faster?
andy

black86glhs
02-01-2009, 01:26 PM
Wouldn't copper lines with oil inside last a pretty long time? I could see water corroding them faster?
andyThe oil will coat them.

contraption22
02-01-2009, 03:27 PM
What if you drilled and tapped the holes in the head for some NPT fittings...

lancer402
02-01-2009, 05:58 PM
What if you drilled and tapped the holes in the head for some NPT fittings...

Not enough room. The hole is too big for 3/8" npt so you would have to go to 1/2" and the size of any fitting would be too big, it would interfer too much with the block.

andy

lancer402
02-01-2009, 06:00 PM
What if you drilled and tapped the holes in the head for some NPT fittings...

wait a minute, I had them tapped for 3/8" npt already for plugs. but the 3/8" fitting would be too big as well.

andy

mboyek
02-09-2009, 11:11 PM
First, that looks awesome.

Now, a problem with solid copper lines is "work hardening." That's why you don't use it for brake lines and fuel lines. It gets stressed from being bent, and if you keep bending it in the same area it will get hard, stop flexing and crack. I have NO idea if the expansion between the head and block in a million years would be enough to worry about work hardening, but it's something to think about.

I used some copper pipe because I had some tight quarter bends and did not want the hose rubbing the power steering pump. The drains "sweat" oil where the hose is clamped. I failed at both epoxying a bead and soldering a bead for the hose to hold onto. soldering a barbed fitting would be the way to go if using any hose for a flex joint. If I had some way to crimp a flare in the copper line I would be happy. Do try some different epoxies, I could NOT get jb weld to stick to copper.

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq135/daytonaer/100_2953.jpg

rbryant
02-10-2009, 02:31 AM
I think you would be better off welding up the holes and then redrilling them farther out of the head (possibly at an angle) so that you can get a real threaded fitting on them to run hoses to the block from there.

Whenever I take a shortcut it always hurts in the end.

What does the headgasket look like in that area? Could you also notch the block there (It seems like a bad idea but it might be ok) to get real 45 degree fittings to clear? I mean two 1/4" semicircles wouldn't hurt the heads integrity or anything....

-Rich

BIGBRUDDA
02-13-2009, 11:37 AM
Mike and Rich are right. Aluminum will not silver solder. It's only usable on Bronze and Iron alloys. Loom-nee-um is a critter all to it's own.
I looked at a those drains too. Tapping and using brass screw pipe, or relocating the holes are viable alternatives. Aluminum pipe could be Heli-arced. But that would be $$$spensive and vulnerable to damage.
Epoxies are suseptable to vibration ,and thermal expansion.

black86glhs
02-13-2009, 01:07 PM
Mike and Rich are right. Aluminum will not silver solder. It's only usable on Bronze and Iron alloys. Loom-nee-um is a"critter all to it's own.
I looked at a those drains too. Tapping and using brass screw pipe, or relocating the holes are viable alternatives. Aluminum pipe could be Heli-arced. But that would be $$$spensive and vulnerable to damage.
Epoxies are suseptable to vibration ,and thermal expansion.You can silver solder copper, but wasn't 100% on the aluminum.:(
My friend and I were talking about it and he thinks tig welding the aluminum would be better. Cleaner welds.

BIGBRUDDA
02-13-2009, 04:05 PM
TIG is a form of HELI-ARC with closer temp control. The crux being HELI as in Helium.(old school) When welding ALUM you must "bathe" the heated area in an inert gas to prevent rampant oxidation.:nx: Most commonly used is ARGON.:thumb:But that only work for Alum to Alum.:mad:

The main problem in this application( attaching a tube or pipe to the under side of the head, or anywhere realy) Is in that there is no 100% way to bond 2 dissimilar metals , such as copper, brass, or steel to Aluminum. As previously stated Loom-nee-um is in it's own realm.:confused:
The only hard-n-fast way to attach another metallic to Aluminum is by "mechanical means" i.e. threads. Even then care must be taken, to both seal, and anti "Gall" the threads.:amen:
Brass, Bronze, and Copper work well in that they are relativly close to Aluminum in thermal expansion, and corrosion qualities.However layer enough of them together and you get "Electrolitic action" , or a battery.Which speeds corrosion usually of the softest metal.:mecry:

But enough Metallurgy for today class. :blah:The weekend is here, and 2 more days to work on our cars:banghead:.................and drink BEER:clap:

BIGBRUDDA
02-13-2009, 04:15 PM
wait a minute, I had them tapped for 3/8" npt already for plugs. but the 3/8" fitting would be too big as well.

andy

Ahhhh .....an answer was within your grasp young JEDI.:fencing: One must consider all forms of pipe when plumbing an antiquated low bid design! Such as a
3/8 x 3 brass nipple. :nod:But then we do incurr starter problems from time to time.:banghead:

R/T
02-13-2009, 04:53 PM
But enough Metallurgy for today class. :blah:The weekend is here, and 2 more days to work on our cars:banghead:.................and drink BEER:clap:

*3* days - I'm off for the "Holiday" Monday!!! :thumb:

black86glhs
02-13-2009, 06:33 PM
TIG is a form of HELI-ARC with closer temp control. The crux being HELI as in Helium.(old school) When welding ALUM you must "bathe" the heated area in an inert gas to prevent rampant oxidation.:nx: Most commonly used is ARGON.:thumb:But that only work for Alum to Alum.:mad:

The main problem in this application( attaching a tube or pipe to the under side of the head, or anywhere realy) Is in that there is no 100% way to bond 2 dissimilar metals , such as copper, brass, or steel to Aluminum. As previously stated Loom-nee-um is in it's own realm.:confused:
The only hard-n-fast way to attach another metallic to Aluminum is by "mechanical means" i.e. threads. Even then care must be taken, to both seal, and anti "Gall" the threads.:amen:
Brass, Bronze, and Copper work well in that they are relativly close to Aluminum in thermal expansion, and corrosion qualities.However layer enough of them together and you get "Electrolitic action" , or a battery.Which speeds corrosion usually of the softest metal.:mecry:

But enough Metallurgy for today class. :blah:The weekend is here, and 2 more days to work on our cars:banghead:.................and drink BEER:clap:
Oops, I forgot to mention we were discussing different ways of making the drains, not that tig was better than heli-arc. You, my friend and I both know it is a similar thing. We were talking about stick, mig or tig and tig would be the cleanest and most precise like you said.:thumb:

lancer402
02-14-2009, 06:50 PM
I think you would be better off welding up the holes and then redrilling them farther out of the head (possibly at an angle) so that you can get a real threaded fitting on them to run hoses to the block from there.

Whenever I take a shortcut it always hurts in the end.

What does the headgasket look like in that area? Could you also notch the block there (It seems like a bad idea but it might be ok) to get real 45 degree fittings to clear? I mean two 1/4" semicircles wouldn't hurt the heads integrity or anything....

-Rich

Rich

I thought about welding up the hole and threading a new port at an angle just alittle bit "south" of the current hole.(just like you said, I believe) But I cut an old head apart and their is a coolant passage between the hole and the edge of the head. So this is probably not possible.

andy

ps your distributor cap and wires are doing great!!!!:thumb:

black86glhs
02-14-2009, 09:53 PM
Rich

I thought about welding up the hole and threading a new port at an angle just alittle bit "south" of the current hole.(just like you said, I believe) But I cut an old head apart and their is a coolant passage between the hole and the edge of the head. So this is probably not possible.

andy

ps your distributor cap and wires are doing great!!!!:thumb:
Good point Andy.:(
How about down sizing the hole to a 5/16 threaded fitting. Weld it so the hole is offset away from the block to allow for the most clearance. Plus with less welding, it would be cheaper to do. Hopefully.:thumb: