3.0L/Megasquirt install guide

[nmw2006]

Hey guys..I found this awesome website the other day and figured that i would share it with you.

Here goes How To Megasquirt your 3.0L Dodge (http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/how_to_megasquirt_your_mitsubishi_mopar_30_sohc.ht m)

It seems that the 3.0L crowd is growing (although slowly :thumb:)

The link goes to the DIYAutotune site by the way.

FYI: I used this to help install my MSII w/ rev3.0PCB on my spirit. It runs like total crap now..but thats what i get for trying to tune it in 10 degree weather LOL. And to be expected i guess. I will try to update this when i get it running better.

[BF/STOCKER SPIRIT]

Very cool!!!!!!!! There is hope for the 3.o
i have a 3.o shadow ,daily driver, good little car
and it boogies.

Thanks nm

[ShadowFromHell]

Cool! Ive been looking into 3.0 swappin my rampage to a 3.0, and this looks like a better option. More expensive thou.

[BF/STOCKER SPIRIT]

Theres no mods on my car,i think it buzzes around
faster than your average car,its kinda fun,
that rampage ,would be a reliable,fun, quick car

[Shadow24]

compared with other ECU options, the MS is by far the best bang for your buck. i have it running my SOHC 24v 3.0 which will be getting an M90 S/C in the near future. The great thing with the MS, is you can run your motor on it whether its N/A or boosted, no need to swap any parts etc (unless you plan to go to like 24+psi boost). the guide at DIY is good and makes use of the stock dizzy so ignition should be easier. if I can get it to work, so can anyone! :)

[ShadowFromHell]

How hard is it to tune it thou? Does it have to be constantly changed for weather conditions?

[Aries_Turbo]

naah its pretty easy to tune. takes less than an hour to get it starting and running pretty well. if you use a MS2 processor, it has a nice autotune feature.

Brian

[Ondonti]

Hey guys..I found this awesome website the other day and figured that i would share it with you.

Here goes How To Megasquirt your 3.0L Dodge (http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/how_to_megasquirt_your_mitsubishi_mopar_30_sohc.ht m)

It seems that the 3.0L crowd is growing (although slowly :thumb:)

The link goes to the DIYAutotune site by the way.

FYI: I used this to help install my MSII w/ rev3.0PCB on my spirit. It runs like total crap now..but thats what i get for trying to tune it in 10 degree weather LOL. And to be expected i guess. I will try to update this when i get it running better.
Excited to see what happens when you rev up near or over 7000 :)
Its still too cold for me to even want to go outside :P
Do you have a garage you wired that thing up in? I think I probably need to redo some stuff on my board but I haven't really checked yet.

DIY autotune became a vendor for TD like 6 months ago and I had no idea about it. They said they watched our progress and our complains about lack of vendor support and they put together the help guide.


Actually, the 3.0 packages and articles came about because of this forum. We've known how to make the Megasquirt work on a 3.0 for a long time, but once we became sponsors here, we had quite a few forum members asking what was involved in putting Megasquirt on a 3.0. So we took what we'd learned and rolled it up into a tech article.

One of the rules about the tech articles is that they're always based on current stable release code. Even though it the code for the 2.2 / 2.5 HEP signal has been tested, it's still in the beta stages, and we may want to do some in house testing before releasing an article and the installer packages for it.

[nmw2006]

I ended up swapping back to the stock computer for now because it is just too cold to work on it. I will get back into it when it warms up some.

No garage or heat.....Life Sucks....LOL

[Shadow24]

hey, im in Columbus if you wanted a hand with the MS. ive got mine running pretty well and might be able to give you some pointers or direction on getting it to run :)

[menace2society]

It sounds like the average person can't install it unless you're familiar with wiring. Sounds way to hard for me. Any other help websites?

[nmw2006]

Actually its one of the easiest if not THE easiest engine management system to install.

Don't mean that as an insult, but it could be ALOT worse...like trying to combine 2 harnesses to make my car run right with all the features i want....:banghead:

I would think that most people could figure it out with a little practice and the wiring diagrams out of your Haynes or Chilton manual.

Good Luck

[Ondonti]

One trick I think would be picking up a non sequential injection injector wire harness.

I would like to throw away everything stock that I don't need but I know it would be really difficult to get the stock cluster to work after doing that.
If someone does that then the info should be easy to share and we could clean up our installs.

Anyone know of aftermarket lights/signals setups?

[Aries_Turbo]

certain 199x cars are darn near impossible to do that cause the gauge cluster was driven by 2 wires from the ecu. i dont know if your car is like that though.

an older gauge cluster swap would work though a tach still might be difficult.

Brian

[RoadWarrior222]

Would there be any advantage to using the 87 and prior Power Module for alternator control? (Just wondering what kind of hissy fits the SMEC/SBEC throws if it isn't in control of everything)

Edit: oh wait a sec is that only the drivers really? I guess the LM does all the real work.

[menace2society]

Yeah I did read that you have an option to buy it with the soldering already done. I think "shadow24" said in the TD forum that they might be labled or color coded. If that was the case, I would want to try it later down the road.

If Brent starts to experiment with it (on his n/a engine) this spring, I hope he posts a lot about it. That would be awesome/very helpful.

[Ondonti]

certain 199x cars are darn near impossible to do that cause the gauge cluster was driven by 2 wires from the ecu. i dont know if your car is like that though.

an older gauge cluster swap would work though a tach still might be difficult.

Brian
I believe we get a functional tach signal from the coil ground.

[Vigo]

plus you can get a tach from harbor freight for 12$.

[turboshad]

I would like to throw away everything stock that I don't need but I know it would be really difficult to get the stock cluster to work after doing that.
If someone does that then the info should be easy to share and we could clean up our installs.


Do you mean under hood or the whole car? Under hood is no problem at all for the generation of cars this site mainly deals with. As far as in car it is just a matter of identifying and eliminating the circuits you don't need. Nothing crazy, it would just take time to tear apart all the harnesses and take wires out.

[Ondonti]

Do you mean under hood or the whole car? Under hood is no problem at all for the generation of cars this site mainly deals with. As far as in car it is just a matter of identifying and eliminating the circuits you don't need. Nothing crazy, it would just take time to tear apart all the harnesses and take wires out.

I did the harnesses that go to the back of the car because they are easy but the underdash is not my friend.
I think i will jump into the wiring game soon though.

I am good about pictures so I will document things to make copying whatever I do easy.

[Shadow24]

Menace, DIYAutotune.com has pre-soldered cables and 12' lengths of labeled TXL wire to do your own wiring.

I've also been thinking about trimming out the factory wiring i don't need, but i have to wait until i can get an aftermarket speedo and make my own dash. The speedo is the only reason the stock computer is still plugged in :(

there are a few ways to drive a tach with MS, if your like me and go with EDIS, you can drive a tach from the SPR-OUT on the EDIS module, MS can provide a tach signal i believe too, and also triggering off the coil as pointed out above.

[RoadWarrior222]

interrrrtrrresting, going 24V is sounding more practical these days.

[Shadow24]

now that ive done all the footwork lol :)

[menace2society]

It does sound doable for me to do with some help on the forums and a lot of patience. Good thing it's labled. By the time I install it, most of the quirks will be worked out. For, you and others are in the process of working on them. Thanks.

You need a laptop to tune it, right?

[Shadow24]

not necessarily, but its a LOT easier if you do. any cheap one that can run windows 98/XP and has a built in serial connection will do just fine. you can probably snag one cheap off of eaby

[menace2society]

Cool, I have have to get megasquirts a try later down the road. I'm waiting for Ed to get back with me on my heads/oversize so I can get my freaking engine rebuilt. I think he's really busy right now.

I'm sure I'll have tons of questions later. I hope Megasquirt is worth it for a natrually asperated build up. I think you plan on supercharging if I remember reading right.

[Shadow24]

it is, it can handle 16,000 rpms :) and yes, the M90 is waiting in the wings while i finish fixing some driveline issues and misc stuff for now

[Ondonti]

Well looking over the 3.0 instructions my board is wired all wrong for the ignition side. I am thinking about paying someone to fix the board because I dont have the stuff to test the board and I dont have good soldering tools.

I am just worried about the labor rate and somehow getting a bill for 400 dollars without knowing in advance because "things turned out more difficult then we thought".

[Shadow24]

its not that hard to re-do the jumper wires on the MS... some computer wire and a soldering iron and you'll be ok

[Ondonti]

If you want to fix my board I' pay what you suggest. Do you have the testing device?
Basically it needs all the stuff in the 3.0 sohc guide. Its pretty simple but I SUCK at solder.
Needs a resister etc. A few jumpers are wrong. Then the fact that the board is untested.
Less then an hour of work I think. For me it would be hours though cause I would keep messing up. I could buy the resistor too so you wouldn't have to go get it.....

My board already has the oldschool VB921 transistor (which has been replaced by the BIP373 because the VB is no longer made?

[nmw2006]

WOOHOO!!!!! Got mine running finally.

It really does help if you hook your MAP input to a known good vacuum source ... :banghead::banghead: (ie. the stock port...)

Many thanks to Shadow24 for staying to help till 11:30 figuring this thing out :hail:

Still missing my top end due to bad tune and no WBO2...the one i ordered took a crap after 5 minutes ... i can't catch a break with this car...

[nmw2006]

Ondonti ... i have all the tools and skills to work on your board, but i live in OH and it would have to be shipped, i would do it for cost of parts and some labor + shipping (i have no clue how long it would take since i don't know exactly needs done).

I have the stimulator to test it and now i can plug it into my car for a good test since we have the same setup. I'll even burn my halfway decent tune and settings into it for you.

Let me know and i'll see what i can do.

Edit: which board do you have? the 3.0 DIY board? or the new 3.57 surface mount board? I have a parts supplier 3 blocks from where i live so transistors etc. are not a problem.

[Shadow24]

feels good to have it running eh? get your WBo2 figured out and it will really help out on tuning and getting power out of the setup.

and re-run your MAP line so its routed better!

[Ondonti]

http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/how_to_megasquirt_your_mitsubishi_mopar_30_sohc.ht m

I have my jumpers wrong.
I fixed like 1 jumper so it was setup to run direct coil I think but apparently it needs to be setup like this shows............

Thats all that needs to be changed if the board is actually functional.
3.0 board and it had the dual 4.0 bar map daddy sensors so it has weather correction and you need to setup the map sensor info differently.

I would definitely be interested in your help instead of having a shop do it.
I live far from everyone so mailing it is pretty much my option. I just want it done as I have avoided this for over 2 years.

Its also possible there is some crap stuck in that port near the TB as I have never had problems with those ports. did you try the one on the neck too?

[nmw2006]

I don't know anything about setting up the extra map sensor stuff, but I can verify if the board is working and add the right jumpers, etc.

You are running the stock dizzy correct? IAC idle control too?

If you could forward me the info about this dual setup, I could see what I can do with it.

[nmw2006]

Its also possible there is some crap stuck in that port near the TB as I have never had problems with those ports. did you try the one on the neck too?

I didn't check this, but it didn't work on any of those ports or the one on the TB, but it works perfectly on the ones on the other end of the plenum.

[Ondonti]

But the stock port is definitely a good choice. Maybe there are weird pulsations in those front ports.

Stock Diz. Stock type IAC from a 3.5L. I tested the resistance and its the same as the normal 3.0 stuff.
The map sensor stuff is just the software settings
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mapdaddy-sensor-with-barometric-correction-p-117.html
I would like to mail this off asap if you want to PM your info and any stuff you might need. .

[Shadow24]

+1 for nmw2006 getting Ondonti closer to MSing his beast :) maybe you can actually rev where those cams WANT to be now Ondonti :thumb:

[87turbodance]

MS is surprisingly easy to install if you just read the manual a few times. It is even easier now that DIY Autotune created a guide for the 3.0. I'd be happy to help someone with their MS if they need it. I'd even do some soldering if people don't mind shipping to Canada. I have a MS for my 3.0 on the backburner - waiting to get my A543 installed before MS. I'm using a 36-1 wheel on my crank because I want to go with wasted spark with coil packs but the stock Dizzy can be used like DIY Autotune describes. A GM coil pack ignition module with the guts removed makes an excellent weather proof mounting option as opposed to Shadow24's approach of just sticking the wiring in the holes - no offense but that makes me nervous for a daily driver. I have built about half a dozen different MS including 2 for myself - one for my 3.0 in proress and I had one running on my old 2.2 but it was kind of cobbled and was more of an experiment to see how well MS worked.

For idle control with MS 1 an easy option is to use a Ford TB with it's two wire Idle Speed Control - this is my plan.

I also have '89 SMEC wiring diagrams if anyone needs them. All the wires that need to be tapped into can be found at the SMEC 60 pin connector. I'm going to just chop off the connector and connect the wires to one of DIY autotunes premade harnesses and add an external voltage regulator where the computer used to be.

[Ondonti]

Haven't heard anything from nathan. Still having fun without EMS.

[RoadWarrior222]

I seem to recall one of the ports, possibly one of the ones the evap is hooked to is a venturi vacuum, meaning it pulls some vacuum even at WOT.

[Ondonti]

Probably the evap one. Its the one located on the neck of the plenum, and it winds all the way back to the other side of the engine bay. That must by why they added all that extra line. They weren't just being stupid. I always wondered "why didnt they just tap from the rear of the plenum" :P

[Shadow24]

87turbodance - i didn't use the GM mounting as i was pretty sure that was also the GM-DIS controller. im pretty sure there are no direct in/out wiring for the coils as one side would be controlled by the GM-DIS circuitry. if you know something i don't please share! lol

[87turbodance]

Here is what I have done so far. I completed most of this in 2007 and only began working on it again recently.

First pry the metal cover off the DIS module to reveal its "guts". Hack the guts out with a screwdriver and a hammer because we wont need any of that.

Then jumper the terminals inside the module to make the connection from the coils to the external wires.
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6833946_583618.jpg
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6833948_8260113.jpg
Seal the space inside the DIS module with something that doesn't conduct and reinstall the metal cover and then install the coils on top. An aluminum plate with holes tapped into makes a good base to mount everything to.

[Shadow24]

hmmmm, nice. thanks 87turbodance!

i think that will be added to my supercharger project as i'll have to relocate the coils anyway

im trying to read your diagram, do you have any higher rez images or explanation of the grounding wiring and what pins they are on the GM-DIS connector?

[87turbodance]

Sorry my pictures kind of suck. The drawing I took a picture of was my original plan to actually install the ignition coil driver ICs inside the GM module (which should work) but I've since decided to install my three ignition driver ICs (VB921 or alternative) inside my MS case. The wiring is very simple inside the GM DIS module. All I did was use an OHM meter to figure out which terminal in the module when to which coil terminal and then which wire on the outside of the DIS module went to which terminal inside the module. There will be one common terminal for the +12 side of all three coils which I tied into the terminal that connects to the yellow and back wire. I then ran three jumper wires inside the case to connect the GRN/WHT wire to the - side of coil A
(CYL 1 and 4), BRN/BLK wire to - side of coil B (CYL 2 and 5) and the BLU/WHT wire to the - side of coil C (CYL 3 and 6). In my drawing just pretend the three transistors I drew aren't there or the resistors.

Make sense? I will take more pictures when it is done

[87turbodance]

I got my megasquirt pretty much done. Here are some pictures of it running and talking to Megatune.
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6861217_6307217.jpg
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6861218_2118702.jpg
My ignition driver IGBTs mounted to the case
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6861219_3099323.jpg
Another picture of my wiring diagram
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6861220_3292649.jpg
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6861221_6789558.jpg
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6861223_4666096.jpg
I just need to install this before I can get my MS up and running
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6861224_7689952.jpg

[Shadow24]

why'd you go MS-I vs MS-II? and good job BTW, going to run the GM colis via MS or EDIS?

[87turbodance]

why'd you go MS-I vs MS-II? and good job BTW, going to run the GM colis via MS or EDIS?

I went with MS 1 extra just because of cost. I'd like to go with MS 2 extra when I have some extra money. I'm going to use MS to fire of ignition coils using a 36-1 ring mounted on my crank and a Neon Hall sensor so I dont need to worry about building the VR conditioning circuit. After setting up my ignition coils as above I changed my mind about where to mount my ignition coil drivers. I ended up mounting them in the GM DIS module as my wiring diagram shows and it seems like it's going to work. I will take some more pictures shortly. I am working on a wiring harness for MS right now and then I'm going to piggyback my SMEC to make sure everything works before I go full blown standalone because this car is my dd.

[87turbodance]

After going over the wiring diagrams a little closer I realized that the TCM and the ECU don't really talk much on my car. They share the signal from the TPS and the reference signal from the distributor and that is it. So I've decided to install MS and get rid of my SMEC completely but retain the TCM to run my A604 until I get my A543 installed. I'm going to start the conversion this weekend and I should have it done monday or tuesday next week. I will let you guys know how it goes. I already have a working tach signal to MS along side the SMEC. It seems to me that MS might work piggy back but I haven't tried to piggy back the coolant temp sensor yet and I don't know if it will work. I'm going to add an Intake temp sensor and change my CTS to a GM unit (same hole and connector) to simplify the MS install. So far I've followed DiyAutotune's directions they seem accurate. I will eventually add a 36-1 wheel and change to wasted spark.

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6890133_7363105.jpg
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6890134_7089019.jpg
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6890135_3358796.jpg
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6890136_5123973.jpg
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3877/91/115/550760083/n550760083_6890137_3166746.jpg

[87turbodance]

I got my car idling today with megasquirt having full control of the timing. I just need to get the fuel injectors hooked up to megasquirt to control the fuel. I will do that tomorrow. So far the SMEC hasn't set any codes even though I disconnected it from the coil. It seems to me that MS would work well as a piggy back.

[87turbodance]

So far my car runs awesome. I have completely removed my SMEC but have retained my TCU to control my A604 and t works great. I have it tuned really well so far - I wouldn't be afraid to let my wife drive the car! Here is my latest MS1 extra MSQ file for anyone who wants a base tune. The motor is completely stock except for MS
http://87turbodance.freewebspace.com/box_widget.html

[87turbodance]

Most recent MSQ here (http://www.box.net/shared/29zr2afeuv)

The VE curve in this MSQ much better reflects the stock Chrysler 3.0 volumetric efficiency then my previous MSQ files. I have my intake plenum divider removed and a 52mm TB which has likely altered my VE curve from stock somewhat.

[Ondonti]

stole your msq for possible future reference on other projects.

[87turbodance]

I am having trouble reading accurate intake air temps so I'm having trouble dialing in my tune. I need to build a cold air intake and get rid of the cone filter on the tb.

[Ondonti]

Are you using an OEM sensor or the GM? I am not using an IAT.
OEM sensor is pretty much a coolant temp sensor and just manages to measure the heatsoak temperature of whatever you have it plugged into (someone elses words).


Me, I am hating the IAC stuff.

[Kreel]

Are you using an OEM sensor or the GM? I am not using an IAT.
OEM sensor is pretty much a coolant temp sensor and just manages to measure the heatsoak temperature of whatever you have it plugged into (someone elses words).


Me, I am hating the IAC stuff.


Why so many issues with the IAC? I found DIY's info to be pretty useful. It's one of the few things I was able to install with no issues, lol. Tuning it hasn't been too painful either.

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, the IAT is supposed to get to head/coolant temp when you leave it idling and there's barely any air through the plenum, then when you get to a steady cruise it gets nearer ambient again. However, since the air is picking up heat from the plenum at idle, it's getting close to that warm, and that heat all gets sucked in to cool it off, so it does reflect the actual intake air temperature for moderate driving. However, jab the throttle open and you go from hot air to cold air, which might leave it lean for a while until the plenum cools off.

So it's probably less problematic leaving the IAT in the plenum, because that's your air cooker, than putting it further up the intake for "accurate" numbers, which aren't accurate by the time the air gets to the motor.

Might be possible to run some numbers for forced air cooling of that mass of alloy to get an enrichment correction for sudden WOT.

[87turbodance]

I'm using a shitty plastic GM IAT from a sunfire. I have a cone filter on my TB and I had the IAT mounted between the cone filter and the TB and the IAT kept picking up heat from the exhaust which made MS run lean.

With MS the IAT is one of the primary sensors for fuel calcs. MS uses it to calculate air density I believe. I ended up building a temporary half-assed cold air intake using intake ducting from 2.5 V6 Avenger. I came off the TB and then went down between the battery tray and the lower rad hose and my cone filter to the bottom of the ducting with the IAT mounted just after the cone. I have noticed my car is much smother now and the motor doesn't run lean on day and rich the next. I also had a problem before where the motor would run lean on hot starts because the IAT would heatsoak but now it works much better. I really want to flip my plenum and run my hold air intake through the charcoal canister hole. The way things are going that will happen next year... on the back burner with the half-dozen things I plan to do to the car but don't have the time more money due to my being a poor student. My wife is almost done school maybe she can be my sugar-momma!

[87turbodance]

For best results with MS N/A you want the IAT as far from heat as possible - like at the entrance side of a cold air intake. For MS the volvo guys recommend hanging the IAT in one of the fenders to avoid any kind of heat from the engine being picked up. For boost the top intercooler pipe is best of course but you still need to find a way to avoid heating it with the engine and not the charge air.

I might be just using a really cheap sensor. I'm going to hunt for a good quality one.

Ryan



Yeah, the IAT is supposed to get to head/coolant temp when you leave it idling and there's barely any air through the plenum, then when you get to a steady cruise it gets nearer ambient again. However, since the air is picking up heat from the plenum at idle, it's getting close to that warm, and that heat all gets sucked in to cool it off, so it does reflect the actual intake air temperature for moderate driving. However, jab the throttle open and you go from hot air to cold air, which might leave it lean for a while until the plenum cools off.

So it's probably less problematic leaving the IAT in the plenum, because that's your air cooker, than putting it further up the intake for "accurate" numbers, which aren't accurate by the time the air gets to the motor.

Might be possible to run some numbers for forced air cooling of that mass of alloy to get an enrichment correction for sudden WOT.

[87turbodance]

Are you using an OEM sensor or the GM? I am not using an IAT.
OEM sensor is pretty much a coolant temp sensor and just manages to measure the heatsoak temperature of whatever you have it plugged into (someone elses words).


Me, I am hating the IAC stuff.

With MS and boost I'd make sure to install and IAT in one of the post-intercooler charge pipes! I'd think the best spot would be right after the intercooler behind the bumper somewhere. MS uses the map and IAT for for fueling, the coolant sensor is just used for warmup and does nothing once the engine is hot and the TPS is mostly just for Acceleration Enrichment. I don't have a wideband to check but I heard that different IAT temps can make the difference between 12:1 AFR and 15:1 AFR.

[RoadWarrior222]

For best results with MS N/A you want the IAT as far from heat as possible - like at the entrance side of a cold air intake. For MS the volvo guys recommend hanging the IAT in one of the fenders to avoid any kind of heat from the engine being picked up. For boost the top intercooler pipe is best of course but you still need to find a way to avoid heating it with the engine and not the charge air.

Hmmmm, sounds like you may as well mount it on the hood or front grille.

That just sounds like a way of getting enrichment while claiming the AFR is properly tuned, rather than properly tuning it, then adding enrichment if you want it.

[87turbodance]

Hmmmm, sounds like you may as well mount it on the hood or front grille.

That just sounds like a way of getting enrichment while claiming the AFR is properly tuned, rather than properly tuning it, then adding enrichment if you want it.

well... no. You still need to sense the temperature of the air being ducted into the motor but need to avoid getting false readings of the air temperature. The air in the intake manifold will be far cooler then the intake manifold itself. I've noticed that a lot of OEMs have a cold air intake style setup often drawing air from behind the headlights or fender and then mount the IAT as far from the motor as practical to avoid false temperature readings. An iat in the Manifold will heatsoak on hot starts and then the motor WILL run lean until the IAT reads proper air temps.

[Aries_Turbo]

i think thats why chrysler used plastic sensors on the turbo cars to try to lessen the heatsoak effect.

i have a aftermarket sensor on my turbok with the exposed thermistor. it has a cage around the thermistor that i had to modify to brace the thermistor but it responds to temp changes immediately.

Brian

[RoadWarrior222]

Yeah, I'd be happier to insulate the sensor more from the plenum, or at least limit the thermal mass that it is sinking to, as well as limiting heat soak into the plenum. Such that there's a good read of the air temp that the motor actually gets, rather than the temperature it is when you've sucked it through a filter, ripped it past a throttle plate, and cooked it in an alloy stove.

[Ondonti]

When you run alky you have to run the IAT after the sprayers too.
I would almost want to run it in my plenum if there was a way to prevent it from heatsoaking when turned off.

The IAC might be easy to wire but that doesn't mean it works properly. They don't give you any settings for the IAC so you are just guessing, which a manual that does not really describe much of the functions for IAC control.

Only person I have heard who has the IAC working properly is UNA and he won't share his settings.

[87turbodance]

I have no experience with MS2 so far so I haven't experienced the stepper idle control. I am using PWM idle control for warmup only and it works well.

I agree that there are more ideal setups for the IAT but sometime you have to accept some compromise.

[Kreel]

When you run alky you have to run the IAT after the sprayers too.
I would almost want to run it in my plenum if there was a way to prevent it from heatsoaking when turned off.

The IAC might be easy to wire but that doesn't mean it works properly. They don't give you any settings for the IAC so you are just guessing, which a manual that does not really describe much of the functions for IAC control.

Only person I have heard who has the IAC working properly is UNA and he won't share his settings.

What, Una won't play nice now? ;) My settings still need some tweaking but right now I have consistent starting and idling.

The Start Value is very important because if that's too much or too little nothing is going to work properly. 160 is pretty common and that's what I'm using myself. 160 is the amount of steps you want the pintle to retract by. So when you turn the car on but are not cranking yet the pintle should be fully retracted. Once you start cranking the pintle will extend by the Cranking Position steps. After start-up it will immediately start using values in your Idle Steps table. As you know you have 10 values at 10 different temperature points. The "steps" are how much the pintle is extending in each coolant range. This is total steps, not cumulative. So for example at 0* I am at 80 steps (roughly halfway open). However by 140* I'm at 150. Your goal by 200* is to be 0-10 steps above your start value. This will ensure that the IAC has fully extended. It was a little confusing at first but I have my van idling close to factory now. I won't know how much negative parts of the IAC bin will work out until winter, but here's hoping! :thumb:

[87turbodance]

I'm replacing the heads on my car and I'm cleaning up my wiring at the same time. I have also modified the stock dizzy to give TDC signal on the "high data rate" output in addition to the signal that we already use for MS from the "low data rate" output. I used some aluminum tape to cover up the 350 small slots in the high data rate ring and then I cut out a about ten of the slots into one big window. This window will give one pulse per cam revolution and can be used for wasted spark.

I also went ahead and bought a wasted spark coil pack from a 3.3 along with some 3.3 ignition wires.

I'll post pictures soon.

[RoadWarrior222]

So you can't use the dead slots in the HDR ring as-is with inverted output for the cam signal?

[87turbodance]

So you can't use the dead slots in the HDR ring as-is with inverted output for the cam signal?

I don't think so because it will keep going high/low because of all the slots. The MS is wired with a pullup to 12V so the input to MS will be "on" when optical pickup in the dissy is blocked and "off" when the optical pickup see a window. (optical pickup pulls low when there is a open slot in the vane)

Did you mean cut out all the slots and leave only the dead spot? Either way you need to clock the 350 slots and then make one slot for TDC on cyl 1

[RoadWarrior222]

I was thinking of something like smoothing the output with a cap so it shows a 50% on signal rather than rapid on/off, pulling that high, to get the definite low when blocked.... Which starts 10 degrees before TDC, ends at TDC.

[87turbodance]

I was thinking of something like smoothing the output with a cap so it shows a 50% on signal rather than rapid on/off, pulling that high, to get the definite low when blocked.... Which starts 10 degrees before TDC, ends at TDC.

Maybe. I really don't know. I think you'd need a pretty large cap to smooth out the pulses at cranking speed, though. I'd rather just cover it with aluminum tape and cut out a section like this:
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7631/sam0858.jpg

The next thing I might try is to drill and tap 6 evenly spaced 1/4"-20 holes in the crank damper and install 6 bolt to use as teeth for a crank sensor. Then install late model 3.0 dizzy which only has a TDC output. This would be straightforward I think and allow for wasted spark and fairly accurate ignition timing. Install the first bolt at 60 degrees BTDC and them make them spaced apart by 60 degrees.

[87turbodance]

Now I've started thinking about it, I might just make a 12-1 wheel on my stock damper by drilling and tapping 11 10-32 holes in the in a damper and installing some hex head bolts with a couple washers underneath. hmmmm.. I'd like to completely lose the dizzy if I could. I'm going to look into this tomorrow and maybe grab myself a Caravan crank sensor too.

[87turbodance]

I made up a bit of a ghetto 18-1 wheel on my crank pulley a couple days ago. I installed some standard bolts just to show what I did but I'm going to replace them with studs and loctite when I do the final install. For a crank sensor I'm using a Cam sensor from a '99 Mazda. I hope it has a fast enough response time.
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4121/sam0859j.jpg
http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/7200/sam0860.jpg
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8547/sam0861x.jpg
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8467/sam0862.jpg

[87turbodance]

I have my ghetto toothed wheel just about done. I just need to clean it up and paint it. I tested it with a cam position sensor out of a 2000 Mazda Protege and it seems like it will work. I'll find out for sure in a couple days.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4305/sam0879e.jpg
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1259/sam0880z.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3830/sam0881l.jpg

You can see my sensor and mounting bracket in this picture:
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3895/sam0874f.jpg

[87turbodance]

I successfully started my motor today with my home made 18-1 crank pulley. I brought it to full temp and reved it a few time but I shut it down because of a coolant leak that I need to fix tomorrow.

I'm using a 3.3 wasted spark coil pack along with a mitsu 3.0 transistor module to drive the coils and a 2000 Protege cam sensor as my crank sensor.

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/626/sam0882g.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9823/sam0883g.jpg
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/5786/sam0884o.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/878/sam0885w.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5068/sam0886.jpg

[RoadWarrior222]

w00t w00t, that sounds like progress, what's leaking, the stupid crosspipe? or top hose to pump? (Figuring most other stuff is easy to get at and done quick, unless you need a thermostat gasket or sumpfink)

[87turbodance]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BYv6qAaPnY

[87turbodance]

Almost done!

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/1488/sam0892e.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7060/sam0893.jpg
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5735/sam0894q.jpg
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8674/sam0895b.jpg

---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------


w00t w00t, that sounds like progress, what's leaking, the stupid crosspipe? or top hose to pump? (Figuring most other stuff is easy to get at and done quick, unless you need a thermostat gasket or sumpfink)

It was the heater hose tube on the driver's side. Coolant was seeping out of the flange because the bolt I used were too long and were bottoming out before the flange was tight. There is still some coolant sitting on my lower intake but it appears to be going away.

[87turbodance]

I had to switch back to distributor ignition because I was having a problem with spark output B dropping out intermittently on Megasquirt processor output. I don't know if this is a software problem or a hardware problem but I know it originates at the MS processor. I suspect it's an issue with non-standard toothed wheels and MS1. I'm still using my 18-1 toothed wheel along with a single stock coil and 96+ distributor that is only being used to distribute spark and nothing else. In the future I'll be able to use the 96+ distributor along with my 18-1 toothed wheel for sequential injection with MS3.

[87turbodance]

For all you guys running MS using the stock distributor as a tach signal for MS, I recommend turning your stock crank pulley into a simple toothed wheel. I have done this and it works excellent. I currently use a toothed wheel setup with my MS for a crank position sensor and I am using a single coil with a distributor but anyone could easily add two more ignition coil drivers and run wasted spark.

I made a 18-1 toothed wheel with 1/4-20 studs for simplicity but I'd recommend a 36-1 or a 60-2 wheel using smaller studs like maybe 1/8". This will give excellent crank position information to MS and directly allow for wasted spark ignition and easily allow for sequential injection and coil on plug ignition in the future with the addition of single cam sensor.

For a crank position sensor I just used some aluminum angle to mount the sensor off the front of the engine and then mounted a crank sensor in the correct position to allow for the center of the sensor to align with the center of each stud.

If you create a 60-2 wheel then each stud represents 6*.
If you create a 36-1 wheel then each stud represents 10*.

Mark the first hole at 10* BTDC (cylinder 1) on the crankshaft and then mark out each hole in the increments mentioned above depending on how many teeth you want on your wheel. To determine the position of the missing teeth/tooth, set your crankshaft at 60* BTDC for a 36-1 wheel or 58* BTDC for a 60-2 wheel by using the markings you have created on the crank pulley. This stud will be tooth #1. For a 36-1 wheel the tooth immediately clockwise from tooth #1 will be the missing tooth. For a 60-2 wheel the two teeth immediately clockwise from tooth #1 will be the missing teeth.

Carefully drill and tap all holes except for the missing teeth and I recommend tack welding them in place once it is determined that they all protrude from the crank pullet at the same length.

Voila! You have an easy toothed wheel utilizing the stock crank pulley that will work with many different hall-effect or VR crank/cam position sensor.

Check out my posts on the previous page for pictures of my wheel. I have put a couple hundred KM on my wheel over the past couple weeks and it works well.

[c2xejk]

So what is the gain from going with the wasted spark setup vs the stock distributor?

Did you figure out the B+ drop out problem?

[87turbodance]

Main benefit of the wasted spark is a hotter spark, no cap and rotor, longer coil charge time. I recommend the toothed wheel for better timing accuracy and more information to the MS CPU. It's looks cool too.

My spark B keeps dropping out for an unknown reason. I am running MS1 and it is either a software problem with MS1 or my CPU output is damaged. I'm not going to investigate it any further. I'm hoping to buy a MS3 upgrade kit from DIYAutotune come this June so I can run sequential injection and have a more OEM driveability.

[87turbodance]

To further expand on the above info. The standard distributor only gives 3 triggers to the MS box every 360 crankshaft degrees. MS then has to calculate how long to wait before firing the ignition coil. With a toothed wheel, MS is counting 36 or 60 triggers per 360 crankshaft degrees. This way MS has more accurate crankshaft position info anywhere in that 360 degrees. This allows for more accurate timing when using MS2 and especially MS3. The toothed wheel also future proofs for sequential injection and COP. I also find the distributor a bit annoying to setup to maintain a good trigger angle while keeping the rotor in the correct phase with the terminals in the cap. With a toothed wheel on the crankshaft you could use a later style distributor in combination with a missing tooth crank wheel to allow for sequential injection on MS3.

I just found the toothed wheel very easy to setup and gives very accurate timing. LS3 coils mounted to the valve covers would be really good bling too!

I also just wanted to show off a very simple way to add a toothed wheel to our motors without having to find a way to weld on a wheel from a vender. I chose to weld my studs in place but I'm sure if someone tapped the holes with a tight clearance and used nuts on the back to lock the studs in place it would wok just as well.

[Ondonti]

Well I was blowing out 14 psi last summer on a .031 gap so i had to go .024" (didn't want to screw around). Thats with a Ford 5.0 coil which is hotter. I am probably just going to go Keene Bell Boost a Spark. I have my dwell kinda short because my MS has the oldschool circuit that burns out with too much dwell. I could probably open up the gap or run a lot more boost with a healthy dwell.

Boost a spark will behave just like for fuel pumps and jack up voltage to the coil when in boost so it can charge more completely (faster) without overdoing dwell. At high rpms it doesn't really matter what your dwell is cause you probably don't have enough time to even use max dwell.

BTW I saw something in the newspaper about laser spark plugs, and Denso might get a contract from the developer to start making them....

[87turbodance]

Well I was blowing out 14 psi last summer on a .031 gap so i had to go .024" (didn't want to screw around). Thats with a Ford 5.0 coil which is hotter. I am probably just going to go Keene Bell Boost a Spark. I have my dwell kinda short because my MS has the oldschool circuit that burns out with too much dwell. I could probably open up the gap or run a lot more boost with a healthy dwell.

Boost a spark will behave just like for fuel pumps and jack up voltage to the coil when in boost so it can charge more completely (faster) without overdoing dwell. At high rpms it doesn't really matter what your dwell is cause you probably don't have enough time to even use max dwell.

BTW I saw something in the newspaper about laser spark plugs, and Denso might get a contract from the developer to start making them....


What does this boost-a-spark thing cost? 8 LSx COPs can be had for about $125 used and they are smart coils so they don't need to use the ignitor on the MS
board. With MS2 you can easily wire them as a wasted spark COP setup. If you mod the outer ring on the distributor ring you could run wasted spark with the stock distributor pickup. Alternatively, my modding your crank pulley (really easy!) you could have a missing tooth crank wheel. Then mount a hall effect with a piece of angle metal on the front bracket and you'll have all the data needed for wasted spark. A couple minor mods are needed inside the MS case to bring out the coil signals and change the tach input for the hall-effect sensor. I used a 2000 Mazda 1.6 cam sensor as my crank sensor. I just grabbed a hand full off sensors from a wrecker and used the one that fit best.

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 AM ----------




Did you figure out the B+ drop out problem?

I found out that I was getting resets which was causing the ASD and fuel pump relays to drop out, this combined with my intermittent spark b output made it hard to diagnose.

[c2xejk]

How did you determine that you were getting resets?

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com (http://www.kmperformance.com)

[87turbodance]

How did you determine that you were getting resets?

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com (http://www.kmperformance.com)

When doing a data log a red line will show up in in a log and the secL will reset counting when there is a reset. On MS1 m(not sure about MS2 and MS3) the counter will count up to 255 and start back at 0. If it goes back to zero before 255 then you have a reset. I solved my reset problem by installing a capacitor in place of the boot jumper on the V3 board.

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

Here is a copy of my MS1 HiRes 11d MSQ and an export of my Spark and VE table maps. These files were tuned with my 2000 heads with Diamente cams, divider removed intake and 52mm tb. The MSQ is also set up to read a 18-1 toothed crank with a single coil and distributor. These cams and/or heads make a big seat of the pants difference compared to my old '89 slider heads and stock slider cams.

VE table (http://www.box.net/shared/n37lgkdt4c)
Spark Table (http://www.box.net/shared/uyo3ceicjp)
MS1 HiRes 11d MSQ (http://www.box.net/shared/dth2nix2st)

The fuel and spark maps can easily be imported into MS2 or MS3 using Tuner Studio.
I hope to switch to MS3 in July sometime.

[Ondonti]

Boost a spark is expensive. 220 dollars I believe. I have friends who run COP and the often have problems with losing one coil and driving around misfiring. Some of them resort to driving around with spares. The lsx ones are not real cop right...they have a short lead?

I am okay with keeping things simple. I don't know how worried I am about timing accuracy except for the fact that if you try to tune more clear then half a degree of timing to max out your tune, that might be a baaaad idea. Thanks to the knock setup on MS being completely worthless you either want to be super precise with your timing system, or not push things too far. I have so many other issues to deal with that are not megasquirt related so upgrading megasquirt settings or features is my ultimate backburner. Temping but end of the list. I don't even have a camshaft or turbo manifolds installed on the Duster right now. Need to finish buiding valvetrain, get a cam ground to match, build a new turbo setup, then very complicated exhaust setup, finish drivetrain, afford some stuff I can't afford, then...:P New intake manifold probably also goes in ahead of MS. Need to make new breather valve covers too! If the 3.0 compatible knock box comes out then I will considering flirting with my MS.

I do plan on looking at my messed up AIS. That is still driving me CRAZY. I hope its just something stupid like crossed wires inside or outside the box.
Otherwise my megasquirt wiring job needs some more finish work but I actually did a great job putting it all together and planning it out . It just took too long for me to get up the courage to do it. The one thing that worries me is that I have the oldschool BIP coil circuit that burns out permanently. I would like to run the one that doesn't reset but allows crazy dwell times without failing (or prematurely resetting). I don't care if I melt a few cheap coils.

[c2xejk]

So far I haven't problems with the stock coil working and I have pushed the RPMs to 7200 without issues... That is with extended nose large gap plugs too...

If I can ever get some dyno time, I want to compare the stock and extended nose plugs.

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com (http://www.kmperformance.com)

[RoadWarrior222]

I kinda wonder about the different rotor arms making a diff though, wiggly tip vs smooth, wonder if the wiggly tip reignites spark 5 times, where a smooth tip one won't.

[Ondonti]

Bleck I don't even know why there are two different rotors. What in the world is the difference or purpose or advantage?

Spark blowout for me is all based on final compression and fuel. 2500cc's of methanol and then E70 fuel on 10:1 compression is hard to ignite when pushing more then 350hp. It will not happen with 300hp on 100% gasoline even with a big gap. The problem with spark blowout is it starts killing hp before it becomes noticeable. 100% meth and E70 lowers the hp level I can get away with by over 100hp on the same plug gap compared to 100% meth and pump gas. That is not a straight up comparison because compression levels were different for me.
Its also going to be RPM dependent because higher rpms = less time for dwell. I guess dynamic compression would also be a problem since Peak VE RPM = more air in the cylinder (basically peak torque is the easiest moment to blowout spark assuming you still have enough time for full coil dwell).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0Rd0vGtdtA
2:17 there is a flash that looks like its a light, its a backfire from spark blowout. 2:36 also has a small exhaust flash after I let off the throttle from spark blowout that I couldn't feel on that pass. Youtube likes to drop frames so you can't always see it the first time so you have to click back a few seconds. with volume up you should be able to hear the explosion as well. The fire looks likes its in front of my car because the wastegate was still open (since it happens instantly) and probably dumped out a good portion of the unburned fuel.
The 2:17 blowout was so bad I was thrown against the seatbelt. Imagine going from 400-500hp to zero instantly when you are busy bracing yourself against acceleration G forces.

[87turbodance]

The toothed wheel allows for an easy way to implement wasted spark and significantly longer dwell times in higher RPMs.

[Ondonti]

booo with the vague explanation :P

[Aries_Turbo]

brent, you need to keep your stock dist in place... cause thats what we're basing the knock box 3.0l input on :)

Brian

[87turbodance]

booo with the vague explanation :P

You referring to me? drill and the the OD of your crank pulley and install studs (8-32ish?, I used 1/4 and they are too big for more than 18 studs). I suggest 36 evenly spaced studs with one missing and a hall-effect crank sensor out ChryCo like a OBD2 van. You can run wasted Coil-near-plug with just a missing tooth wheel or use a "6 pack" wasted spark coil pack and make some custom wires. DIY sells a nice six terminal wasted spark coil pack for like $75. I was using a 3.3 ChrCo coil back but it uses special wire terminals that I needed to salvage from some 3.3 wires to make custom length wires.

Right now I'm running a 96+ distributor (not using the pickup in distributor) with a 18-1 toothed wheel as I described above. I was running wasted spark but my MS1 has issues running wasted spark with a 18-1 wheel. I'm shooting to run LSx coil near plug once I get my MS3 upgrade this summer.

[Ondonti]

brent, you need to keep your stock dist in place... cause thats what we're basing the knock box 3.0l input on :)

Brian
Yes, I am, nobody else wants to. I have hinted quite a few times without saying exactly what you said here :P

----------

And I was talking about the rotor differences, not anything else.

[Irocelectric93]

I'll keep my dizzy in place if i can figure out how to run twin tb's with it in place.

[Ondonti]

You can also delete the top end and still keep the good stuff I believe...

[Irocelectric93]

Good to know brent. Makes sense if i went with LS coils like Ryan spoke of but kept my dizzy in place ...at least the internals etc for the knock box idea.

[c2xejk]

The toothed wheel allows for an easy way to implement wasted spark and significantly longer dwell times in higher RPMs.

Problem is, I have yet to see any dwell time issues with the stock coil, even at 7200 RPM... I may be getting close, but I am not there yet.

[87turbodance]

Problem is, I have yet to see any dwell time issues with the stock coil, even at 7200 RPM... I may be getting close, but I am not there yet.

I don't have any direct experience with a situation where I need hotter spark. I only suggest it for people like Brent to seems to be experiencing a problem with the stock ignition or people like me who just like to do what is theoretically better just to say they did it.