Square tooth common block...

[ShadowFromHell]

My dad bought a turbo rampage a couple months ago, it was a great deal but we are slowly working out the PO bugs. A big one I noticed today, was that even though it has a 89 2.5 in it, but it has square tooth pulleys, and a non cb waterpump. The crank has a 4 bolt pulley on it, not a 5.

Soo.. What problems would this cause? It looks like the a/c pump bracket has been cut up so it could slide to the pass side more, the alt is eating belts, and the timming belt is riding all the way to the pass side.

Has anyone else ran into this before?

Thanks
Dustin

[MiniMopar]

the alt is eating belts

Eyeball the alterantor pulley alignment to the water pump and main pulleys. You probably need to fiddle with the alt bushing sleeves and/or add some washers to get the alt in the right spot.


and the timming belt is riding all the way to the pass side.

That means the belt is too tight and/or the idler pulley is shot.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Not sure about the # of bolts in the pulley but Masi 16v engines had square tooth commonblocks.

["Top Fuel" Bender]

sure it's not an '88

[88_pacifica]

Older Tall deck 2.5?

[ShadowFromHell]

No I am rather sure it is a 89+ CB. It has the big BS pan, with the little bolt by the waterpump, and has no fuel pump blockoff. The PO also said the motor was from a 89 lebaron. The PO did not do the swap and paid a shop to do it. Looking at it, Im thinking they used all the 86 accessories from the 86 glhs motor it first had when it was first turbo swapped.

But, would that even work? can you put a non cb 2.2 crank pulley on a cb 2.5? Looking at it, Im thinking the length or "backspacing" on the 86 2.2 pulley is different then the 89 2.5 crank pulley.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Maybe it was a 89 Lebaron TC? :)

[turbovanman²]

More Masi info but unless its that motor, its not a CB, as you can't get a square tooth gear to fit a CB crank without serious machining and mods to the crank and or gear.

[ShadowFromHell]

hmm... Thats not good. I am really sure its a CB but am beginning to doubt my self. Can anyone verify the # of bolts on a Masi crank pully?

Im going to be really pissed if it doesn't have the cb 2.5 we were told it did when he sold it to us. Car also has a mitsu turbo...

[turbovanman²]

hmm... Thats not good. I am really sure its a CB but am beginning to doubt my self. Can anyone verify the # of bolts on a Masi crank pully?

Im going to be really pissed if it doesn't have the cb 2.5 we were told it did when he sold it to us. Car also has a mitsu turbo...

99% of the population won't try to or spend the money to make square tooth fit. You have a tall deck or a 2.2 non CB.

If you can take off the crank pulley, then its easy to figure out.

88's came with Mitsu's, :(

[black86glhs]

Non CBs have 4 bolts on the crank pulley and CBs have 5 bolts. Masi engined cars.....?????? Someone ask Alan.

[Turbo_Rampage]

'88 non-common blocks have a 5 bolt crank pulley, :nod:. Just thought i'd clear that up.

[gkcooper]

Some crate engines were CB with square tooth gears. I remember seeing one way back when...

[black86glhs]

'88 non-common blocks have a 5 bolt crank pulley, :nod:. Just thought i'd clear that up.I knew there would be an oddball in there somewhere...lol.:thumb:

[ShadowFromHell]

So I know machining has to be done to make it fit, but could you bolt a non cb square pulley on to a cb motor? Not saying its right, but could you physically bolt it up?

[Turbo_Rampage]

I knew there would be an oddball in there somewhere...lol.:thumb:

Don't worry i just found this out myself when i bought my '88 Shelby Z, :o.

[OmniLuvr]

i bought a cb tII 2.2 engine from someone years ago before i knew what i was getting. he said it came out of his charger. it sat in my garage for years because i really didnt know what i had. it was a 90 cb (casting # on block) but it had a square tooth cam gear and 5 bolt crank pulley. im not sure what kind of frankenstien project i had so i sold it to a friend.

i also pulled 2 tII motors out of 89 masi's at the yard that both had non-cb in them, but had 5 bolt cranks i think.

[4 l-bodies]

So I know machining has to be done to make it fit, but could you bolt a non cb square pulley on to a cb motor? Not saying its right, but could you physically bolt it up?

The non common block cranks snouts were around .900". All common block snouts were approx. 1.00" diameter. So to answer your ?, no the non CB crank gears will not bolt up to a CB crank. At least not without machine work.

The 16V Masi TC used both early and CB blocks. The CB Masi used a 5 bolt for sure. Not completely sure if the early masi crank gears used a 4 or 5 bolt pulley. More than likely 5 bolt pulley. The Masi crank gear is very unique as it pushes the timing belt to the outboard side 5/16". This also requires the use of a special tensioner or one that uses a 5/16" spacer behind it. It looks completely different than the other crank gears. I seriously doubt this is what you have.

The pre CB 2.5's 86-88 all had the cover for the fuel pump, although they do have the one small bolt in the oil pan. They use the CB oil pan and aluminum front timing/oil pan adapter. So this isn't it either.

They also made a MEX casting early style block that has the fuel pump cut-out. However, these used the early style oil pan. These blocks also had all the extra webbing in the bottom end like the CB's and early 2.5 blocks. These blocks are very rare in the states, and to our buddies up north.

Sounds to me like the machine shop did some machining to a early crank and/or crank gear and made it fit the CB. It also sounds like the crank gear has not been pressed onto the crank far enough, so it's causing the timing belt to be riding on the outboard side. This will also cause the other belts to shred & wear very quickly. That more than likely is your problem. I've seen this before. Another quick way to determine what crank you have is measuring the diameter of the crank bolt. The early cranks used a 10mm bolt, while the CB used a 12mm diameter bolt.

Let us know what you find out!
Todd Nelson

[ShadowFromHell]

well, Im sure its not a tall block, so we can skip that. The pan was a large one, but didnt have the 4 dimples on the bottom like the older large pans. It defenatly has some issues with belt alignment, so I guess the pulley could have been lathed out to fit. Im going to have to crawl under it check the date on the block.

Ill let you guys know.

[turbovanman²]

The non common block cranks snouts were around .900". All common block snouts were approx. 1.00" diameter. So to answer your ?, no the non CB crank gears will not bolt up to a CB crank. At least not without machine work.



Some good info, the tall deck crank snout is .860" and uses the same size seal as the CB, which is smaller than the non CB seal.

[4 l-bodies]

After looking at some photos of early (pre-cb) Masi 16V motors, I can confirm the early 16V motors used a 5 bolt pulley as well.
Todd


The 16V Masi TC used both early and CB blocks. The CB Masi used a 5 bolt for sure. Not completely sure if the early masi crank gears used a 4 or 5 bolt pulley. More than likely 5 bolt pulley. The Masi crank gear is very unique as it pushes the timing belt to the outboard side 5/16". This also requires the use of a special tensioner or one that uses a 5/16" spacer behind it. It looks completely different than the other crank gears. I seriously doubt this is what you have.

[ShadowFromHell]

Well I took a look at it this weekend. Defiantly a 89 CB motor. Says 11/89 on the back of it. Defiantly a Cb pan. It has all square tooth gears which is still odd and the backspacing of the crank pully is way off. The water pump pulley is dead on with the crank pulley, but the water pump pulley is on backwards :confused:

[turbovanman²]

Well I took a look at it this weekend. Defiantly a 89 CB motor. Says 11/89 on the back of it. Defiantly a Cb pan. It has all square tooth gears which is still odd and the backspacing of the crank pully is way off. The water pump pulley is dead on with the crank pulley, but the water pump pulley is on backwards :confused:

:needpics1:

[ShadowFromHell]

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll308/TurboshadowWA/DSCI0263.jpg

That work? haha

[turbovanman²]

Very funny, :ban: :thumb:

[ShadowFromHell]

All Ive got! lol. Right now we are just going to let it go, and tear it down and correct everything when we pull the motor to install the t2 turbo :)

[4 l-bodies]

All Ive got! lol. Right now we are just going to let it go, and tear it down and correct everything when we pull the motor to install the t2 turbo :)

So your going to buy serp. belts by the dozen?:confused2: Sounds to me like someone put a pre-common block crank in your CB and kind of made it work... If your gonna leave it be, maybe try moving the alternator mounting by altering the spacers. That should help for the time being until a proper crank can get installed.
Todd

[ShadowFromHell]

Well, that is what was done, spacers were left out and its floating all over the place. It has a old style alt bracket that is bent, so we are going to swap it over, and maybe install a uncut AC bracket and see how it looks. It isnt my dads DD, so it isnt a huge issue on the eating belts deal.

Although I re-did his vaccum lines and now he is hitting overboost and hasnt drove it since... lol!