why the wide band is better than the narrow band

[shadowdude]

:rolleyes: sigh OK ,since this person doesn,t believe me ,can some one else back me up here and say why a wide band is better than a narrow band O2 for our cars,PLEASE!!! why do they not listen to me , why??? :banghead:

[86Shelby]

The wideband is better for tuning and datalogging since it will accurately sense mixtures of roughly 10:1 all the way to 17:1. This is usually given in a 0-5V scale.

The narrowband will accurately measure mixtures right about 14:1 to 15.x:1. They are very inaccurate for mixtures straying from this range. This is usually a 0-1V scale. Since the OE's want to keep the catalyst(s) at peak performance they do not need a wideband sensor. Some vehicles do come with a wideband or lambda sensor stock, like many Volkswagons.

[ShelGame]

Actually, a standard O2 sensor will read linearly and accurately from 12.7 to about 17 A/F. That's good enough for most NA cars (that run a leaner A/F). But, turbo cars want an A/F closer to 12 at WOT. So, a standard O2 won't tell you anything unless you're too lean for a turbo car.

Plus, most older ECU's only look at the O2 sensor switching from lean to rich and adjust the mixture based on that. That's why you'll see the A/F guage dancing back and forth like KITT from Knight Rider.

New cars use a WBO2 becuase under certain conditions (cold start, for catalyst light-off) they run much richer and need to know accurately what the A/F is. Too much fuel will roast a cat in a hurry.

[shadowdude]

EXACTLY ,thats what i said ,i went and got one complete wide band kit for the shadow ,the persons i was talking to says that you dont need it and can do with just a narrow band and gauge for around 18 psi to 20psi.They are using just a volt meter tapped into the 02,and they think i am crazy for spending that kind of money on a good wide band.but hey what are you going to tell them right.

[TurboGLH]

Actually, a standard O2 sensor will read linearly and accurately from 12.7 to about 17 A/F. That's good enough for most NA cars (that run a leaner A/F). But, turbo cars want an A/F closer to 12 at WOT. So, a standard O2 won't tell you anything unless you're too lean for a turbo car.

Plus, most older ECU's only look at the O2 sensor switching from lean to rich and adjust the mixture based on that. That's why you'll see the A/F guage dancing back and forth like KITT from Knight Rider.

New cars use a WBO2 becuase under certain conditions (cold start, for catalyst light-off) they run much richer and need to know accurately what the A/F is. Too much fuel will roast a cat in a hurry.

Thats actually not accurate at all. A narrow band sensor is only accurate from .98 lambda to 1.02 lambda (14.4 to 15.0 afr) as seen below.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/TurboGLH/narrow20band.gif

It's only usefull for measuring a mix right at stoich, perfect for computer control while crusing along but useless for any kind of tuning.

[shelbydave]

I understand the need to use the wideband for tuning, and maybe I came in late, but can't you use the narrowband for monitoring rather than the wideband? I was under the impression that devices like the (Dawes) start registering around .7V which is richer than Optimal. Or is that a sales pitch?

[TurboGLH]

I understand the need to use the wideband for tuning, and maybe I came in late, but can't you use the narrowband for monitoring rather than the wideband? I was under the impression that devices like the (Dawes) start registering around .7V which is richer than Optimal. Or is that a sales pitch?

Look up one post, a narrowband o2 is only accurate at stoich. From 14.4 and richer it will read approx 1.0v and from 15.0 it will read approx 0. There is no way to tell how much richer than 14.4 you are running with a narrowband o2. Now take all this with a grain of salt, some o2s may never reach 1.0 and the range of 14.4 to 15.0 may move by 0.1 up and down but it is for all intents and purposes accurate. You can't monitor or tune with any real safety with a narrowband o2.

[ShelGame]

Thats actually not accurate at all. A narrow band sensor is only accurate from .98 lambda to 1.02 lambda (14.4 to 15.0 afr) as seen below.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/TurboGLH/narrow20band.gif

It's only usefull for measuring a mix right at stoich, perfect for computer control while crusing along but useless for any kind of tuning.

You're right, it's only linear in a small range. But, it's still accurate over a larger range - as long as you know the transfer function. I don't know where my chart came from anymore, but it's different from yours. Longer linear range, and more abrupt transitions.

It doesn't matter - the point is, a standard O2 is no good for tuning a turbo car.

[TurboGLH]

You're right, it's only linear in a small range. But, it's still accurate over a larger range - as long as you know the transfer function. I don't know where my chart came from anymore, but it's different from yours. Longer linear range, and more abrupt transitions.

It doesn't matter - the point is, a standard O2 is no good for tuning a turbo car.

+1 on the tuning point. I'd like to get a look at your chart to compare. I want to do some more digging and try to find out what the actual range of accuracy is.

[Ondonti]

I think the narrowband is great as a warning device. Wideband is great for tuning. Most likely if you arent a Dcal wiz, you dont have much tuning ability anyways so that might mean wideband is pointless. If you do have some tuning capability then the wideband can be very helpful, especially if you can datalog it. I dont think wideband is very useful without datalogging software.

[Marcus86GLHS]

I think the narrowband is great as a warning device. Wideband is great for tuning.


that much i would agree with, but, i'd disagree that wideband gauges arent useful w/o datalogging capability. they are useful and prefered for full-time engine monitoring due to their inherent accuracy.

let's bottom line this for the sceptics:
a good quality wideband device is only about $200. it can save you a burned piston due to its accuracy across the mixture spectrum, unlike narrowband devices which can only give a relative "warning". when a component in your engine fuel or air delivery system starts to act up, a wideband will show you that with clarity, in time to make necessary changes.

how much does it cost to replace one burned piston?

[shelbydave]

This is from the 3Bar Racing site :
Our gage shows everything below .90 volts as too lean, by illuminating a red light. So, at a glance, you know "red is bad, lift throttle". From .90 to .94v, a yellow light is illuminated, indicating that you are "in the zone". You will want to think twice about increasing boost without adding fuel. From .94 to .98v, the green light is illuminated, indicating that you are getting enough fuel and are a little on the rich side. Some people prefer to stay there and enjoy an extra margin of safety, but if you want to start increasing boost, the fuel is there. From .98 volts up, the blue light illuminates, indicating that you are very rich.
I'm not trying to be argumentitive, just trying to understand. I am moving from a carb setup to a turbo, and the donor car I found has this device. Can I move over as well and tust it, or should I invest in something different. The car won't be used for racing, but I want that ability just in case I feel "froggy":)

-Dave

[TurboGLH]

This is from the 3Bar Racing site :
Our gage shows everything below .90 volts as too lean, by illuminating a red light. So, at a glance, you know "red is bad, lift throttle". From .90 to .94v, a yellow light is illuminated, indicating that you are "in the zone". You will want to think twice about increasing boost without adding fuel. From .94 to .98v, the green light is illuminated, indicating that you are getting enough fuel and are a little on the rich side. Some people prefer to stay there and enjoy an extra margin of safety, but if you want to start increasing boost, the fuel is there. From .98 volts up, the blue light illuminates, indicating that you are very rich.
I'm not trying to be argumentitive, just trying to understand. I am moving from a carb setup to a turbo, and the donor car I found has this device. Can I move over as well and tust it, or should I invest in something different. The car won't be used for racing, but I want that ability just in case I feel "froggy":)

-Dave

Thats all fine and dandy that they posted that. The problem is that the narrowband o2 is NOT accurate enough to be used in that manner. The range they give, .9-1.0v is a range of 14.4-14.7 afr. Anything more rich than 14.4 is read as 1.0v, so how do you know where you are? Is the car running at 10.0 or at 14.3?

The point is that you can't take the word of the company selling the product, they want you to buy an o2 gauge from them. A narrow band o2 doesn't have the proper range, I don't care what anyone says. It is not suitable for tuning, or even for safety in my mind since I dont' consider "somewhere lower than 14.4" to be a good safety indicator.

[David Bohrer]

A wideband is a necessary component for a modified car. PERIOD. Trying to rely on a stock narrowband sensor for a reading that is out of it's "range" is asinine.

I, must admit I have used the narrowband in my younger days in this manner and found that when I put my car on the dyno that was equipped with a wideband I found that I was "off" BIG TIME in regards to my perceived A/F ratio. Most times by @1 point of a/f at 30 psi of boost!

After, four trips to the dyno I bought a wideband and have never looked back.

Granted our cars are cheap, but, I would rather spend the money on a Wideband than on a rebuild.

Beside who wants to "guess" when for less than $300 bucks you could be correct?

[shadowdude]

Agreed ,i have a EGT gauge AND an Cyberdyne A/F gauge and STILL melted a JE at a short WOT run with only 10psi (other mods) I then started looking into the wide band and thats the rest of the story .I ,myself ,dont want to rely on a volt meter or a marginal reading from a gauge.To each his own ,but here you guys listed some hard proven facts.All reasons why i went with the wide band.

[Ondonti]

I think if you have datalogged with your wideband you would never want to go back.

I really couldnt tune the a/f ratio out until I got a laptop to datalog.

[iTurbo]

I have a Autometer 20 light narrow band O2 gauge in my Shelby Lancer. I though everything was good at 14 psi because my gauge was reading 18 lights at WOT. I brought it to the dyno and found out it was so rich as soon as it spooled up it was off the scale (sub 10:1). The gauge is practically worthless.

[tryingbe]

Next question would be, where to buy a good one?

[TurboGLH]

Jegs has AEM widebands in stock for 280. You can also get in on group buys pretty regularly over on the srtforums. Usual price there is about $250 shipped.

[Marcus86GLHS]

Next question would be, where to buy a good one?

like TURBOGLH pointed out Jegs and Summit both sell a variety of wideband devices, also go to Innovate Motorsports' website and look at their products.

i would recommend the AEM device, excellent quality, very simple to hook up, the new kit comes with several gauge faces that you can swap out for the look you want, and it can be read very quickly which is what you want.....here's the unit in an a-pillar pod in an omni:

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/8/web/632000-632999/632619_222_full.jpg

[Dave]

So what's basically proven? That a Dawe's Device A/F gauge is innaccurate? I know they're said to be tuned for our cars as we run .1 volts less than most O2 sensors that most A/F gauges are calibrated for.

Is there a point in even buying an A/F gauge if the O2 sensor can't pick up on it?

I'm just trying to get some facts here. A DD gauge is my next investment as it's stupid to run 16psi on stock fuel without watching it.

[BIG PSI]

So what's basically proven? That a Dawe's Device A/F gauge is innaccurate? I know they're said to be tuned for our cars as we run .1 volts less than most O2 sensors that most A/F gauges are calibrated for.

Is there a point in even buying an A/F gauge if the O2 sensor can't pick up on it?

I'm just trying to get some facts here. A DD gauge is my next investment as it's stupid to run 16psi on stock fuel without watching it.

You have been LUCKY so far, I would suggest that you turn the boost down to 14 psi and have a good summer with the car. If you melt the motor there goes your fun.

The DAD

:eyebrows:

[shelbydave]

It looks like the comments about the narrow band sensors showed that the mixture was richer than what the sensor / guage indicated. Aren't the warning indicators meant to alert you to a too lean condition? Is there damage that can happen while too rich other than screwing up your CAT?
I'll probably invest in the wideband setup during the building of my car, partially from reading this thread, and also because I will want to play with tuning/calibrations when I'm up to speed.
I wish there was a turbo 101 course where I could learn all this.

[tryingbe]

So what's basically proven? That a Dawe's Device A/F gauge is innaccurate?

Gauge is only as accurate as the O2 sensor.

Since the stock o2 sensor doesn't see anything much neither can the dawe's device.

[TurboGLH]

It looks like the comments about the narrow band sensors showed that the mixture was richer than what the sensor / guage indicated. Aren't the warning indicators meant to alert you to a too lean condition? Is there damage that can happen while too rich other than screwing up your CAT?
I'll probably invest in the wideband setup during the building of my car, partially from reading this thread, and also because I will want to play with tuning/calibrations when I'm up to speed.
I wish there was a turbo 101 course where I could learn all this.

Yes, in that case it was very rich. But you could also be on the opposite end of that range, in the 14.0:1 area and still show 1.0v on the gauge. I don't know about you, but I don't consider 14.0 to be a good afr at 20psi.

[shelbydave]

That's just it. I don't know what is good. It was my understanding that .5 was optimal (no boost, no load, what the CAT liked). anything below was lean, anything above was rich. .9 - 1.0 was very rich. Using that reasoning, the narrowband would in theory be a decent warning device, since it would show red below .9v I have no idea what afr is good, or even what the voltages translate to.
You speak like I'm arguing with you when in fact, I know nothing about those numbers you are quoting, and am trying to learn so I can build this thing right the first time.

[TurboGLH]

That's just it. I don't know what is good. It was my understanding that .5 was optimal (no boost, no load, what the CAT liked). anything below was lean, anything above was rich. .9 - 1.0 was very rich. Using that reasoning, the narrowband would in theory be a decent warning device, since it would show red below .9v I have no idea what afr is good, or even what the voltages translate to.
You speak like I'm arguing with you when in fact, I know nothing about those numbers you are quoting, and am trying to learn so I can build this thing right the first time.

Ok, I think I was misunderstanding where you stood on this. Myself, and most other people, consider 11.5-12.5 the max safe afr at wot. Anything less (11.5 and below) and you're running on the rich side, anything more (12.5 and up) and your running too lean. Even 12.5 is probably a bit lean, but that all depends on how close to the end you like to live and if you have something like Water injection to bring the egt's down.

The straight up fact is that a narrowband is just that, narrow. It doesn't have the ability to report anything outside the stoich range. Since 1.0v can be anywhere from 14.4 to <10.0 you don't know where you lay in that range, way too rich or dangerously lean? If your not showing 9-10 lights you know for a fact that you don't have enough fuel. But even with 10, you can't be sure that your still not lean. With the prices on widebands down to $250 in a lot of cases the question isn't "why should I buy one" but more "why shouldn't I buy one" and the answer is....no reason at all. It's a win win situation to pick one up, reasonably priced and gives you very accurate data on whats going on in your motor at that moment.

[shelbydave]

Thanks. That answers alot of questions. I can guarantee you that any question I ask here isn't an indicator of where I stand, it's how much I DON'T know. This is all new to me at the moment. In January, I didn't even know I was switching to turbo, now I have a donor GLHT sitting next to my Shelby preparing for a transplant.

[shelbydave]

One more question. I've read on other forums (not TD related) that the wideband sensors come with a narrowband output for the ECU. Is this always true? If not, what would the recommendations be to switch to wideband?

[tryingbe]

Drill hole, weld o2 bung for the wide band, and you're in business.

[TurboGLH]

One more question. I've read on other forums (not TD related) that the wideband sensors come with a narrowband output for the ECU. Is this always true? If not, what would the recommendations be to switch to wideband?

Most can simulate a 0-1v narrowband o2. The problem with that on a TD is that the stock 02 is much too close to the turbo to be replaced with a wideband. The wideband sensors aren't big fans of heat and would probably not last very long there. Better to leave the stock o2 alone and weld a bung farther down the exhaust system.

[Ondonti]

My Zeitronix works great for me. Wideband/Lamba,EGT, boost, all i one device. Datalogs all of those sensors + rpm, TPS, and more. Narrowband output. Even has wideband output for your aftermarket ECU.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/249000-249999/249196_52_full.jpg

[Dave]

I have a scanner hooked up now. It was reading at .9v at 16psi stock fuel. My plugs indicated only cylinder #2 had a LITTLE bit of salt and pepper (detonation).

Since then I installed +20's and an AFPR. I now have it up to .92-.94 and still tuning. I want to reach .96v.

BUT can .96v be let's say 10:1 AFR? I want to know if I can start turning this boost up as high as I can while still running .96v and having the computer NOT pull any timing at WOT. That's the big thing here is it pulling timing. That slows me down. Of course the bigger thing is detonation. Stock motor and all. I really don't have $250 to spend on a WBO2 sensor. I wont for a while - huge debt to dad, I wont be able to spend ANY money.

I'm stuck in a pickle here. I want 13's. I'm so close I can taste it. It tastes real good, kinda salty, but good. I'll tell you that much. :) I'm afraid to try and even tune it with higher boost than 14psi.

Ideas?

[turbovanman²]

Theres nothing wrong with using narrow band, and yes, you can mouth me all you want. I agree that if money is no object, a wideband is great. I have had my van on the dyno with a wide band and the lights on the Dawes is bang on, red is above 12:1, yellow is around 12:1 and so on. You just need to make sure your oxgyen sensor works by using propane, its quick and easy. Have your engine warm, feed propane into the engine and if the Dawes goes blue/purple, the sensor is good. I have never melted an engine down due to my Dawes, I fully trust what it says. My .02 cents.

[Dave]

Okay so just inject propane into the turbo or after the intercooler?

Also, since you say you trust your Dawe's completely, should I trust what the scanner is telling me? I want to be able to trust that my O2 is getting .96v - which is my target.

[turbovanman²]

Okay so just inject propane into the turbo or after the intercooler?

Also, since you say you trust your Dawe's completely, should I trust what the scanner is telling me? I want to be able to trust that my O2 is getting .96v - which is my target.

Feed propane into the turbo inlet or pcv valve-do not remove the actual valve or cause a vacuum leak otherwise the test won't work. Feed propane until the engine starts to lope. If your dawes is blue, your sensor is good, if it doesn't, sensor is junk. Again, make sure engine is nice and warm. I wouldn't trust the scanner, there download rate is very slow, so your not getting a true reading if looking at the ox sensor.

[Dave]

Feed propane into the turbo inlet or pcv valve-do not remove the actual valve or cause a vacuum leak otherwise the test won't work. Feed propane until the engine starts to lope. If your dawes is blue, your sensor is good, if it doesn't, sensor is junk. Again, make sure engine is nice and warm. I wouldn't trust the scanner, there download rate is very slow, so your not getting a true reading if looking at the ox sensor.

Grr... I try everything I can to get it right and now I'm told even the scanner isn't accurate. WTF.

Moving on. I got a scanner from someone on here, he still has yet to get back in touch with me. I remember you telling me that the pulse width goes up and down, up and down, so will my 4 lights be jumping up and down as well? When I have someone inject propane will it stay on blue? Need to know exactly what to expect.

[turbovanman²]

Grr... I try everything I can to get it right and now I'm told even the scanner isn't accurate. WTF.

Moving on. I got a scanner from someone on here, he still has yet to get back in touch with me. I remember you telling me that the pulse width goes up and down, up and down, so will my 4 lights be jumping up and down as well? When I have someone inject propane will it stay on blue? Need to know exactly what to expect.

The scanner is like an old dial up modem, the oxygen sensor is high speed internet, thats what its like. The scanner isn't fast enough to catch the ox's reading BUT the other readings are accurate.

Feed propane, engine will lope, look at guage, if purple, good. When you stop the propane, it will take a few secs to recover. Simple as that.

[Dave]

The scanner is like an old dial up modem, the oxygen sensor is high speed internet, thats what its like. The scanner isn't fast enough to catch the ox's reading BUT the other readings are accurate.

Feed propane, engine will lope, look at guage, if purple, good. When you stop the propane, it will take a few secs to recover. Simple as that.

Lope like a big ol' cam?

BTW I think you're color-blind, it's blue, not purple. :yuck:

lol Thanks Simon.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Just to comment on this dead thread, My O2 sensor wouldn't read above .88v! So it wouldn't even read on a dawes. Know how much fuel I put it the WOT curve trying to get it above .88v. 30%!!! I hooked up the wideband and pegged the gauge at over 9.0:1!!!!!!!! I ended pulling about 40-45% of the fuel out of the WOT table to get it to a nice 12.3:1. Pulls much much harder. Have the spark curve tuned for no detonation even at 20psi. The Narrowband O2 is JUNK!

[MiniMopar]

Sounds like you have a Bosch sensor. They don't go very far above 0.85V. For a custom tune, a WB is a must.

[spaceman]

just a ? were do i get a descent wide band ,gathering more parts for current prodject,i may have read it and not realize it but i all ready have the autometer in there ,can i keep the gauge in there (and have the lights bounce around for show ):eyebrows: and still have the wide band once i get one

[GLHNSLHT2]

search for wideband, there was a guy here D1Adkkdaldk soemthing that had an in on getting the innovate stuff at wholesale prices.

[John B]

Can I put a wide band sensor in the stock location in the SV?

[crazymadbastard]

It is not recommended, it is too hot there. I think they want you to mount it 18 inches from the valve. I put mine right above the bend on the down pipe. I am planning on putting a plug on where the stock O2 sensor goes and have my wideband feed the computer a simulated narrow band signal.

[turbovanman²]

I just bought a Innovate LM-1 with the RPM cable today, has datalogging and a few other goodies, $360. They have a few more but only until Dec 31st.

[Aries_Turbo]

I have the tech edge wideband and it gives me a PID unlock code (ie too hot) when things get hot at 20psi and wot. 15psi and wot its fine when i have it in the stock location. i need to move it.

Brian

[cordes]

It is not recommended, it is too hot there. I think they want you to mount it 18 inches from the valve. I put mine right above the bend on the down pipe. I am planning on putting a plug on where the stock O2 sensor goes and have my wideband feed the computer a simulated narrow band signal.

Although I would not recommend putting it there, I have mine in the SV. I know another person who has it there also with no ill effects. I do run the narrow band signal to the LM and it works great.

[Aries_Turbo]

yes it does work well but the negative consequences that you might face are reduced sensor life and decreased accuracy when the sensor shows an overheat condition.

Brian

[cordes]

yes it does work well but the negative consequences that you might face are reduced sensor life and decreased accuracy when the sensor shows an overheat condition.

Brian

Are the WBO2 sensors actual capabilities less than that of a narrow band sensor? It seems very odd to me that they would go with something so much more fragile than the previous generations of sensors. I have never seen the specs on either, but nor have I seen a factual post as to the heat tolerance variations either. That is what really got me to put it in there.

[turbovanman²]

Are the WBO2 sensors actual capabilities less than that of a narrow band sensor? It seems very odd to me that they would go with something so much more fragile than the previous generations of sensors. I have never seen the specs on either, but nor have I seen a factual post as to the heat tolerance variations either. That is what really got me to put it in there.

Its probably due to it being so sensative that it makes it a tad more fragile!!

[cordes]

Its probably due to it being so sensative that it makes it a tad more fragile!!

I don't see how 20 years of time for improvement would not allow for a greater range of AF to be read without losing any durability. One step forward, two steps back.

[Speedeuphoria]

well who's got a VW turbo for refference to see where the sensor is stock, b/c thats the same sensor

[cordes]

well who's got a VW turbo for refference to see where the sensor is stock, b/c thats the same sensor

That is a good point. Although most other turbo cars in the 80s had their sensors much farther away from the turbo than we did too. I know that my o2 sensors got a ton of life out of them.

[turbovanman²]

well who's got a VW turbo for refference to see where the sensor is stock, b/c thats the same sensor

What year? I have a VW wrecker 2 doors down, :nod:

[crazymadbastard]

On my audi I have 4- IIRC one is probably 4-5 inches past the turbo.
I want to cap of my swingvalve is to get better flow in the elbow(sv) and leave it at the downpipe.

[contraption22]

My brother had his mounted about 6 inches from his turbine outlet. It lasted about 3 passes before it burned up. We moved it about 3 feet away from the turbine and now it works great.

[cordes]

My brother had his mounted about 6 inches from his turbine outlet. It lasted about 3 passes before it burned up. We moved it about 3 feet away from the turbine and now it works great.


Was he running race gas?

[John B]

What year? I have a VW wrecker 2 doors down, :nod: I guess any that are turboed?

[contraption22]

Was he running race gas?

Actually the runs made on the original sensor were made on VP Streetblaze 103, which is unleaded.

More recently on the new sensor we were running C16 and Q16, which are both leaded.

[cordes]

Actually the runs made on the original sensor were made on VP Streetblaze 103, which is unleaded.

More recently on the new sensor we were running C16 and Q16, which are both leaded.

Very interesting. I just put about 1300mi of normal driving on mine in the past 6 days and it is still going strong. It was very cold out, so that must have helped my situation.

[Speedeuphoria]

I guess any that are turboed?

the innovate sensor is from a 1.8t motor(bosch), normally its cheapest to get a replacement sensor cheapest/quickest from a vw dealer

I've seen quite a few people running widebands in the sv, not sure how many have had probs

[turbovanman²]

the innovate sensor is from a 1.8t motor(bosch), normally its cheapest to get a replacement sensor cheapest/quickest from a vw dealer

I've seen quite a few people running widebands in the sv, not sure how many have had probs

Awesome, I'll check that out, ;)

[moparzrule]

I tuned my A/F with a dawes, put it in the yellow which is .90-.94V. If .9-1.0V is 14.4-14.7 than how exactly was I 11.7 on the tailpipe wideband at the dyno?
Furthermore, the only time I ever busted a piston from being too lean was the time I looked down and my dawes was in the red....and a split second before I lifted I felt a pulse in the power. Sure enough, melted a spark plug and a piston. I confirmed it was lean because I figured out my FPR wasn't adding fuel 1:1 like it should, it was staying at the base pressure I set it at. Fixed that, got the dawes back in the yellow, been fine since.
Now, I agree a wideband is a *better* tool for tuning. But don't tell me a dawes is worthless because it's been great to me and I got 2 occasions that prove you wrong. I plan on getting a WB eventually to be able to tune my part throttle and idle A/F better, but of course I'll tune WOT as well since I have it.