Head porting. Thoughts?

[shadow88]

I've been at this for a while. It's going to be a +1mm head for the shadow to help get me well over 400 whp on nitrous and into the 11's totally street driven, full interior, with no weight reduction with the addition of slicks.

So I have a few pics of some before and afters to show what I've been up to and to ask the pros if there's anything I should change or watch out for and any advise for the exhaust ports. I did a little deshrouding, raised the roof of the ports a bit, matched it to the intake manifold and straightened the ports as much as I could by eye and opened up the bowls a bit.

Valves dropped in, no porting at this point
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0160.jpg

Deshrouded, but not all cleaned up and pretty. I need a polishing wheel of some sort.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0164.jpg

The bowl area. YES!! There will be some material removed from the seat to assist airflow when the valve job is done. Yes, I plan to grind down or at least shape the new valve guide when they're installed.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0172.jpg

Perhaps this is not the best picture, but it'll have to do until the camera batteries are recharged.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0175.jpg

I'd like your input. Thanks!

[Aries_Turbo]

what are you porting with? some folks say to not touch the guides much as it doesnt drop the flow that much and it can create valve instability.

youll have to do something about that fire ring that you gouged though. either weld and re machine or deck the head and have higher compression.

Brian

[shadow88]

Good point, I'll not go any farther than I have with the guide area, there's not that much missing. Yes I already planned to have the head trued up just as little as needed because it's suface flatness is unknown and to restore a little compression. It's really not as bad as it looks, but it will be addressed. Thank you. Here's what I've been using. They need to be cleaned before going any further.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0189.jpg

[BadAssPerformance]

When playing with the CC, make sure to lay a head gasket on there and scribe a boundary line!

[Aries_Turbo]

are you using oil on those cutters when cutting? like WD or something. that would help keep them from getting clogged.

Brian

[gkcooper]

are you using oil on those cutters when cutting? like WD or something. that would help keep them from getting clogged.

Brian

+1

I have found that kerosene works great on aluminum.

[turbovanman²]

Leave the guide alone.

Buy some proper bits for aluminum, the flutes are spaced further apart and don't plug up, I just got a set from Princess Auto for $20.

I would deshroud around the exhaust valve a bit more, the one pic looks like you could take more out of the right side.

After your done, get it decked and a nice 3 angle valve job, get the valves back cut and you laughing.

Looks good, :amen:

[zin]

When playing with the CC, make sure to lay a head gasket on there and scribe a boundary line!

+1 :thumb:

A little dyechem on the gasket surface and scribe a line and don't cross, it also helps you maintain consistency cyl to cyl. Use dowels or head bolts to align the gasket to the head.

Be careful with the Al bits, they can be a bit aggressive, but you can get ones that aren't, and I'd advise getting them if you can, especially since you are just starting out and aren't (or shouldn't be) in a hurry.

If you have some old valves laying around, cut them down so they'll pass through the seat so you can accurately see how much material is being removed from the bowl, it'll help a lot in reproducing the work cyl to cyl.

+1 on leaving the guides alone, this isn't pro-stock, the 1/2cfm isn't worth all the potential headaches.

All in all, it looks pretty good to me!

Mike

[puppet]

Seems like a pretty heavy deshrouding there. Don't know if that's normal to take that much out of the back side of the chamber on a swirl? That will drop your compression a ton I'd think.

[black86glhs]

Seems like a pretty heavy deshrouding there. Don't know if that's normal to take that much out of the back side of the chamber on a swirl? That will drop your compression a ton I'd think.I thought the same when I did my head recently. I'm not a porting genuis of any sort, but I do tend to go with my gut feelings. My view is every little bit helps, so even if I didn't remove that much, its better than stock.:clap:
I say nice work so far. I assume you are going to smooth it out?

[Aries_Turbo]

if you dont have the machinists dye, you can use a magic marker in a pinch. lol.

Brian

[shadow88]

Thank you everyone! I did use a headgasket and whiteboard marker to mark out the cumbustion chambers, the ports are done by eye and finger to attempt straight and smooth ports. Thanks a bunch for the tips with wd or some kind of lube- I never even thought of that. Any other pointers would be great, any thoughts regarding the exhaust port?

[BadAssPerformance]

For the cc's when you get them closer when you are close to done, plug the spark plug holes and get a graduated cylinder and some colored liquid :thumb:

Exhaust ports?

Dont get into the coolant jacket (see KC for pics fo cross sections)

and

Dont make a bulb in the runner, constant cross section FTW!

[shadow88]

I will try to measure and equal the combustion chamber volume from cylinder to cylinder if that's what you're saying.:D

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL, not saying you have to, just saying how... ;)

[moparzrule]

Seems like a pretty heavy deshrouding there. Don't know if that's normal to take that much out of the back side of the chamber on a swirl? That will drop your compression a ton I'd think.

It's not near as much as a G head drops it I can tell you that from doing cal's. He's deshrouded about as much as I did with my head maybe just a hair more but thats fine because I'm running stock valves. I'm guessing it's about 1-2 cc's of material. G head is like 6-8 cc's larger

Get some Non-ferrous carbide bits for sure, using double cut carbide bits is NOT for aluminum. I don't care what you use, those bits get clogged 10 times easier than non ferrous bits.

[t3rse]

wd40 and you can use anything on aluminum, even stones won't clog if you keep everything lubed and cool

when bits get clogged like that, grind down something really hard and it'll come off...I use old crappy wrenches for this purpose.

[moparzrule]

Or, just get non ferrous bits and not have to do anything and waste time

[Directconnection]

I use double cuts myself as a single cut can be too much to control with any sort of precision. I use the single cut only for hogging. WD-40 works.

[shadow88]

I'll clean the bits with a wire wheel, I've used that many times before.

I found the best tool to make sure there's no tapering and things are equal. A beer cap! Yup, count on the Canadian engenuity to find a redily available "tool" to easily pass through ports to assure they're equal and not necking down anywhere. Turn it on its side or try to pass it through any which way. It clears through the intake ports.:nod::D:thumb:

[turbovanman²]

I'll clean the bits with a wire wheel, I've used that many times before.

I found the best tool to make sure there's no tapering and things are equal. A beer cap! Yup, count on the Canadian engenuity to find a redily available "tool" to easily pass through ports to assure they're equal and not necking down anywhere. Turn it on its side or try to pass it through any which way. It clears through the intake ports.:nod::D:thumb:

When I did my 8 valve head, I used the ratchet end of a 1/2 inch Snap On extension for a go no guage, worked awesome, :lol:

[moparzrule]

So you ported your own head simon? Now I know why you thought the 8 valve was such a POS :lol:

[zin]

Bar soap works to help keep the bits clear too, if the WD gets too messy. It should go without saying, but especially when using WD or another liquid lube/coolant, use safety goggles, glasses might stop a direct hit, but it's amazing how stuff manages to "make the corner" around them, and take it from someone who has had to have filings dug out of his eyes, you do not want to deal with that!

As for CC'ing, I highly recommend it. Consistency in your work is almost, if not more important, then the porting itself.

Looking good so far!

Mike

PS, If you are porting the runners (intake) a slight tapper on the runner will be good for port velocity, normally not more than about 8-12* I don't have my notes at work so I can't give you the formula, but that's a good rule of thumb. Just do as BadAss stated and don't get a "bulge" in the runner. Oh, and another general idea to keep in mind when working with air and other "fluids", they don't like to turn more than about 15* in a step, otherwise turbulence will form, this is why multi-angle valve jobs make more power, the airflow is closer to laminar.

[turbovanman²]

So you ported your own head simon? Now I know why you thought the 8 valve was such a POS :lol:

I ported my swirl head, it flowed very well-had it put on a flowbench. Didn't port the G-head, was already done, ;)

[moparzrule]

I ported my swirl head, it flowed very well-had it put on a flowbench. Didn't port the G-head, was already done, ;)

Well we already talked about flow in the other thread and you said I was right :D

[shadow88]

Well, I got started on the exhaust and to start off with...Thank you JT for telling me to look in the knowledge center. I didn't realise the water jackets were that close! They're even closer now! I figured if a beer cap was a go-no go tool for the intake, a quarter is a pretty good go-no go tool for the exhaust.

Pics.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0269.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0268.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0267.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0266.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/Head/IMG_0263.jpg

[shadow88]

I've been very busy since returning to the workforce in 2009 so I only had a chance to bring the head to my favourite engine builder earlier this week. He marked off a couple area that need improvement, but said it was overall a good job.

Nothing personal here - he said the valve guide area being cut back will help flow without causing any other issues.

I'll be finishing the chamber and port work today, maybe snapping some pictures, and sending the head back for guide and valve installation, head plaining, and seat opening to take advantage of the +1mm valves.

[moparzrule]

I'd say you are doing a rather good job for your first time porting.

Break out the sanding rolls on the dremel and smooth everything off real good. Also there's a small lip typically all the way around the valves, I just use the sanding rolls to get it because the carbide bit takes too much away too quickly.

Here's some pics of the latest head I ported. I don't remove the guides.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/PortedHead2-1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/Portedhead3-1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/Portedhead4-1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/portedhead5-1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/Portedhead1-1.jpg

[Ondonti]

Beer cap is sorta like I used. I had these fiber dremel disks that were all different diameters and I used each one to measure a certain part of each port to ensure my ports were equal.

[Directconnection]

Are you guys saying you took out the taper in the ports of the cylinder heads? If so..... that's not good!

[moparzrule]

Are you guys saying you took out the taper in the ports of the cylinder heads? If so..... that's not good!

+1, I forgot to mention that. I do NOT make the ports straight back the same width, they have a taper. I also taper the roof more than stock. You will KILL velocity if you flow it straight back.

[crusty shadow]

well i started porting my head last night. i didnt go quite as far as the OP did with removing material around the guide. i raised the roof and rounded it so its a D shape all the way to the hump before the guide. i worked the sides over, just need to smooth out a few rough spots and finish up the bowl area.
but after seeing all the feedback im considering removing more of the hump. any suggestions? im open to ideas

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/crusty_shadow/th_SANY0099-1.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/crusty_shadow/?action=view&current=SANY0099-1.jpg)

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/crusty_shadow/th_SANY0093.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/crusty_shadow/?action=view&current=SANY0093.jpg)

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/crusty_shadow/th_SANY0092.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/crusty_shadow/?action=view&current=SANY0092.jpg)

[moparzrule]

but after seeing all the feedback im considering removing more of the hump. any suggestions? im open to ideas
]

Throw that head away and get another. :(

Sorry but you completely ruined the intake runner by raising the roof the way you did. What you want to do is raise the roof at the beginning of the port but taper it at as much of an angle downward as you can. The more you can get the air closer to parallel with the valve the better. You made the angle completely perpendicular with the valve, so the air runs straight back the port and hits the wall at the bowl. Try to make the port higher and squared off, no D shape. And do NOT mess with the curtain around the guide in the intake port at all. You took it completely away. That curtain is instrumental at channeling the air downward and giving the swirl affect! If you look down the bowl at the curtain around the guide, one side is smaller than the other. Thats so it twists the air giving it the swirl affect. No swirl=killing low end torque and fuel mileage, and honestly the way you ported the roof would hurt upper RPM too :(

[shadow88]

I guess I'll spend the extra money to flow this head once it's back at the machine shop to see what kind of flow numbers it can pull off. Matt, what does your ported head flow? Matt, why would you use scotchbrite pads on a gasket surface? I hope you had that head plained.

[The Pope]

+1, I forgot to mention that. I do NOT make the ports straight back the same width, they have a taper. I also taper the roof more than stock. You will KILL velocity if you flow it straight back.

What are you talking about? In every case if the bowl is done right you gain flow by raising the tapper roof over a 1/4". The width tapper you leave a lone with stock valves, you go to the gasket with big valves. You are just on here talking and not testing clearly. See how much tapper I left and how much my port flows and where. Leaves the stock tappered head in the dust the moment the valve opens. Almost all of the flow gain is in the roof, mine gains 33% over stock with no loss of low lift flow, only gains.

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1046
http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1064

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f17/127956-stock-782-vs-my-ported-head.html

Whats next, you going to start saying the 655 has less low lift flow too? The 655 doesn't have any tapper. The stock one I tested was really cut ugly too, no muilti angle valve grind like the stock 782 I tested. Still ran from it. Moral of the story with any 8v Dodge head? Make the port as close to the same height all the way in. That pinch off the port does stock is to help TBIs get better gas mileage, it wasn't put there for turbo people. All the big gains are in the roof and you guys here tell people not to cut there :confused: I didn't even do the "best job" on this head either. Left the guide bashing into the air and there is a nasty edge around the bottom of my seat. Still 33% more flow:nod:

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f17/127958-stock-782-vs-stock-655-8v.html#post1056963

[Directconnection]

I guess I'll spend the extra money to flow this head once it's back at the machine shop to see what kind of flow numbers it can pull off. Matt, what does your ported head flow? Matt, why would you use scotchbrite pads on a gasket surface? I hope you had that head plained.

Scotchbrite pads really aren't a good idea on an aluminum deck surface. A shop messed mine up years ago.... it hits the corners of the combustion chambers and all the holes and puts chamfers on them and also makes low spots....

But, it's better than the guy on here 2 years ago that didn't want to spend the $ on his 3.0 at the machine shop, so he bought some files and the such and decided to "deck" his block himself:confused:

[Directconnection]

What are you talking about?

Not me.... I was talking about running a quarter or beer cap all the way down the runner. This takes out all taper and phucks with the choke.

BTW... a stock swirl head probably flows 33% less than a stock 655, nevermind an azz ported one:love:

[moparzrule]

I guess I'll spend the extra money to flow this head once it's back at the machine shop to see what kind of flow numbers it can pull off. Matt, what does your ported head flow? Matt, why would you use scotchbrite pads on a gasket surface? I hope you had that head plained.

First off, do you not realize I was talking to ''crusty shadow's'' port job not yours? Much earlier I said your porting looked pretty decent, especially for a first time.

Flow numbers don't tell you velocity. I've seen heads that put out HUGE flow numbers that make less power. And yes I tell every person I sell a ported head to have the head surfaced, it usually needs done anyway.

Also, flow numbers don't mean jack unless you flow a stock head with it at the same time. Every flow bench puts out different numbers.
Meaning, leave 1 cylinder's combustion chamber and ports completely stock and have the same head flow tested with 1 cylinder ported and 1 not ported. This way you have a head that has the same casting (not all stock heads flow the same) to compare to your port work.

[moparzrule]

What are you talking about? In every case if the bowl is done right you gain flow by raising the tapper roof over a 1/4".


All the big gains are in the roof and you guys here tell people not to cut there


:confused2::confused2::confused2: You are replying to my quote of '' I also taper the roof more than stock'' and telling me I'm telling him not to cut there? Huh?

[shadow88]

First off, do you not realize I was talking to ''crusty shadow's'' port job not yours? Much earlier I said your porting looked pretty decent, especially for a first time.

Flow numbers don't tell you velocity. I've seen heads that put out HUGE flow numbers that make less power. And yes I tell every person I sell a ported head to have the head surfaced, it usually needs done anyway.

Also, flow numbers don't mean jack unless you flow a stock head with it at the same time. Every flow bench puts out different numbers.
Meaning, leave 1 cylinder's combustion chamber and ports completely stock and have the same head flow tested with 1 cylinder ported and 1 not ported. This way you have a head that has the same casting (not all stock heads flow the same) to compare to your port work.


There's no need to be so defensive. This isn't the header thread :)

A simple "no, I haven't flowed my head" would be fine. I'm looking for goals, not trying to play "my head is better than yours", chill man.

I guess because this isn't a true back to back test, I'll save the money and not have if flowed. I've looked for stock flow numbers to try to make this a fair comparison to show improvement, but there's no consistancy in stock head flow numbers.

[Directconnection]

I guess because this isn't a true back to back test, I'll save the money and not have if flowed. I've looked for stock flow numbers to try to make this a fair comparison to show improvement, but there's no consistancy in stock head flow numbers.

My flowbench #s compare to a couple others from my experiences.

On the intake side: a swirl head flows around 142cfm at .500 where a g-head flows around 162cfm at .500"

Just find a junker and bring it with you to whomever does the flowtesting for an a/b comparison.

[moparzrule]

And I've seen a stock head only flow 120 cfm at 28'' on certain flowbenches. There's no way to tell if the flowbench will flow the same as another. And like I said not all stock heads flow the same, there's different core shift is every head. Whats so hard about leaving 1 cylinder unported and flowing the ports on the same head? That way you know for certain what improvements were made.

[moparzrule]

There's no need to be so defensive. This isn't the header thread :)

A simple "no, I haven't flowed my head" would be fine. I'm looking for goals, not trying to play "my head is better than yours", chill man.

I guess because this isn't a true back to back test, I'll save the money and not have if flowed. I've looked for stock flow numbers to try to make this a fair comparison to show improvement, but there's no consistancy in stock head flow numbers.

You were defensive first. You were the one who didn't realize I wasn't talking to you anyway.

Well my car made about 325 WHP at 22 PSI on pump gas, thats pretty damn good for a stock valve head.

[shadow88]

This thread wasn't intended to touch on horsepower, or assumed power based on 1/4 mile times or any of that. Thank you to those who helped in this head porting project of mine. A flow test will not be performed due to inconsistancies that will ultimately mean nothing as cold hard evidence to how well or poorly this head flows. The head is now at the engine builders' for guides, valve job, and head plaining. Further results will be in the spring when it's back together. :D Thanks again.

[Directconnection]

A flow test will not be performed due to inconsistancies that will ultimately mean nothing as cold hard evidence to how well or poorly this head flows.

I have flowed a boatload of stock swirl and G heads. They are all the same... so grab one and bring it with you to the shop for testing. Trust me... I know what I am saying here. If it's the same flowbench doing the testing, your #s will be a good A/B comparison. I never see more than 2-4cfm variance from one head to another on my flowbench and that it at .500" lift.

[moparzrule]

This thread wasn't intended to touch on horsepower

And whats the point of porting a head again? To make more.......ummm........wait........horsepower? No that can't be it.

LOL

Joking aside now, you wanted to know results of my port work and those are all I got soooo

[Ondonti]

I have flowed a boatload of stock swirl and G heads. They are all the same... so grab one and bring it with you to the shop for testing. Trust me... I know what I am saying here. If it's the same flowbench doing the testing, your #s will be a good A/B comparison. I never see more than 2-4cfm variance from one head to another on my flowbench and that it at .500" lift.

so then your heads are pretty similar.

I had a 3.0 head that I tested, I tested a good looking port and then a port that had lots of casting flash. These ports were on the same head!

They flowed like this

Good vs bad vs self ported + oversize valve
0.10 43.27....... 43.27....... 87.74
0.20 116.44..... 109.88..... 132.84
0.30 158.52..... 143.95..... 184.40
0.35 164.99..... 152.05..... 200.57
0.40 168.22..... 155.28..... 210.28
0.45 ............................... 215.12
0.50 171.46..... 158.515

So for my heads simply making sure you had clean ports could have a huge gain in CFM's. Ive heard some of your 2.2/2.5 heads had really bad core shift.......
I think if I had a 3.0 motor with all "good" ports it would vastly outperform one with all "bad" ports.

Have you flowbenched "bad" heads?

[Directconnection]

Have you flowbenched "bad" heads?

Yes. My friend's '89 AGS T-II Daytona blew a headgasket after he didn't listen to me and watch the boost spikes. So, he bought a spare one from some guy to drop off and have the work done. This way, the car would be down for only the weekend he was doing his headgasket job. The head he bought had horrible core shift... to the point the the bosses for the headbolts were off, and the counterbore for the washers broke through the sides it was shifted. It did flow a bit less, but still within a few cfm. 782's always from between 140-144 cfm on my bench, and g-heads are always 161-164. (.500 #s)

[Ondonti]

Well I guess even if people dont like the port designs, they are fairly dummy proof when it comes to manufacturing.

[Directconnection]

Well I guess even if people dont like the port designs, they are fairly dummy proof when it comes to manufacturing.

I think the 2.2/2.5 head design sucks arse, too.

[moparzrule]

I think the 2.2/2.5 head design sucks arse, too.

The real problem is our bore size. With the bore being so tiny it makes the ports tight together. It's the reason the 2.3 ford guys are getting more power out of their engines because their heads flow more, larger bore means a wider chamber which gives room for larger valves and more extensive porting.

[Directconnection]

Our bores are bigger than most other 4 cylinder engines.

The ports just plain suck....

[zin]

Our bores are bigger than most other 4 cylinder engines.

The ports just plain suck....

ONLY if they are used N/A... When used on a Turbo application... Then they just plain BLOW!:lol::lol: (Sorry, it was too easy!)

Mike

[Directconnection]

ONLY if they are used N/A... When used on a Turbo application... Then they just plain BLOW!:lol::lol: (Sorry, it was too easy!)

Mike

That's ok.... it's an old joke that I tried years ago on the SDML.... with nobody thinking it was funny, either. :lol:

[moparzrule]

Our bores are bigger than most other 4 cylinder engines.

The ports just plain suck....

Only the 4 cylinders that have 16 valve heads, and or 4 cylinders that aren't meant for any kind of major HP application. Lets compare apples to apples, other 8 valve head engines that were built for making good power. Prime example, the turbo 2.3 ford.

The ford 2.3 has a bore of 3.78, compared to our 3.44 thats a HUGE difference. The bores being larger means the chambers are wider which means larger ports and valves. It's the reason a lot of 2.3 ford guys have been making over 500 WHP for a long time now and we are still struggling to do it.
Our stock valves are 40/35mm which is 1.57/1.38, the 2.3 ford has a STOCK valve size of 1.735/1.50. Thats how big our largest oversize valves are for our engines, 44/38mm is 1.73/1.50. And we have to use interlocking seats to fit those valves. Larger bore = more potential for head flow.
Take the 318 VS the 340 mopar engine for example. You don't see many high performance 318's, and you don't see many if anybody modifying them to make really big HP. Why? Same stroke, but 3.91'' bore versus 4.04! You can fit larger valves in the 340's bore and thats why it's desirable.
Now the problems with our heads just isn't the valve size, as I've been saying all along a larger bore would make the whole head wider which leaves more room in between the ports for larger sizing.

[zin]

That's ok.... it's an old joke that I tried years ago on the SDML.... with nobody thinking it was funny, either. :lol:

DOH! Great minds thinking alike?:nod:

Mike

[The Pope]

The real problem is our bore size. With the bore being so tiny it makes the ports tight together. It's the reason the 2.3 ford guys are getting more power out of their engines because their heads flow more, larger bore means a wider chamber which gives room for larger valves and more extensive porting.

It also makes a difference with the flow bench. Most benches use a 4" bore for testing V8s. When you test a 8v head on a 4" bore it gives up better numbers. The bore being tiny is part of the restriction.:nod:

[Directconnection]

I still stand by my comments.... the 2.2/2.5 has bigger bores than MOST other 4 cylinders. I didn't say the Phord 2.3.

But, a big reason the Phord 2.3 makes great power like you say has to do with one word: Esslinger

Look into another Chrysler 2.5 if you want to see big bore/short stroke combo... there is one really good combo out there....

[Juggy]

jaim did u polish all the runners and bowls yet

[minigts]

Two months later.... how does it? BTW, you coming to SDAC this year in Cinci? If so bring more Challenger mugs. :D