Idea for 16v conversion kit vendors should ponder

[JuXsA]

Here is an idea for TD Vendors to consider with the creation of a 16v conversion kit. I put this up as a reply in a td.com thread about intakes.

I think that what you could do is make detailed instructions along with good pictures.
Throw in all the things you need to block off what ever holes that need to be blocked off on the block.
Throw in the gaskets, intake and exhaust manifolds.
Show exactly where to drill in the block and how deep and how wide and supply the fitting that goes in there.
Then have 2 options with the head.
Either sell the fittings and blocking things for the head or have the option to send in the head and have the vendor do the work on it.

Ozspeed's site is pretty good for showing how to do it but not quite good enough IMO for the novice. I have read it several times and have a fairly good understanding on how its done but I don't feel secure enough to do it myself because the site is still not detailed enough for me. Plus it talks about fabricating a bunch of stuff that I don't think is even needed now.

I think that it wouldn't cost very much to throw a kit together and a vendor could make a big profit off of it.
Think about it. How much does it cost to make an overly detailed instruction manual with tons of pictures? You don't even have to print it you could just mail it on a CD.
I think the only pricy parts are the head, fuel rail, the intake, and maybe exhaust mani.
And the customer has to provide the head any way. Hell, if some one even made detailed instructions that were awesome and sold them for $50-$100 on CD I could print it and take all my stuff to the machine shop and have them do all the drilling and blocking and whatever else.

Other then time how much would it cost you to make a set of detailed instructions with highly detailed pictures... you know, make it easy enough that a 3 year old could do it

[altered7151]

No offense, but I dont think the hybrid conversion is something someone with very little experience should be tackling. If someone is not exactly sure how to do it with the info thats out there now, maybe they aren't quite at the level the should be to do the conversion in the first place. Even though most of the basics have been covered there are still alot of parts that need to be fabricated, such as the exhaust and intake manifolds, fuel delivery parts etc. Then you have to consider engine management, if someone isn't confident enough to do the mechanical part of the conversion, are they going to be up to the task of tuning it in? Personally if I was a vendor I would shy away from the kit idea because of liability. With so many parts still a huge variable, I would be afraid of getting slammed on the boards because joe newbie bought a hybrid kit, now his motor either doesn't run, doesn't run right, or just plain blew up, and its the vendors fault for selling a crappy kit. Then you have to look at price, seems the price to do the conversion your self on a budget is running close to $1000. If you pay someone else to do all the leg work, double it. So now you're looking at close to two grand when a TIII motor can be had for 1300-1400 and drop in. Its also no secret that TD'ers are cheap asses, so once you factor that in you have a pretty limited amount of sales for alot of work. Not saying your idea isn't a good one, because it is. Its just that its in the wrong market.

[Russ Jerome]

I think that it wouldn't cost very much to throw a kit together and a vendor could make a big profit off of it.
Think about it.

There are hybrid pistons sitting on vendors shelfs unsold as
we type, been there for over a year and nobody has purchased.

The price of a conversion kit with pistons, timing gears, exhaust
header, intake and gaskets would be more than most spend on
a 20yr old turbo car. Then you need a support group like a 3-bar
comp,map and 50-90pph injectors. Gonna need a bigger turbo again
a good turbo alone costs more than a 15yr old TD car.

Add to that different chassis need different drain locations, the
difference between an equal drive shaft vehicle and a one piece
drive shaft makes a LOT of difference in setup. Its all proprietary
to the vehicle and the owners desire (If I built one for you it
would come with a template to open up hood for intake) :)

[Russ Jerome]

Its also no secret that TD'ers are cheap asses, so once you factor that in you have a pretty limited amount of sales for alot of work. Not saying your idea isn't a good one, because it is. Its just that its in the wrong market.

We were typing at same time Alterd, hit it on the head :)

[JuXsA]

But you don't need to fab an intake, lone wolf makes them
As far as cals, I doubt it would take much for the TU cal man to make a rad one. You could just use a modified version of the T3 cal.
And can't you use one of the fuel rails that both FWD and TU sells? They make a universal fuel rail that would work right?
Wouldn't take much to make an exhaust header... just make a log header.
Hell I kinda think that even just an extremly detailed instruction manual would be freaking awesome.

[JuXsA]

would you really need a bigger turbo? Ozspeed used a super 60 on his setup. I figure that a T04E 50trim would be plenty big. Sure, you could always go bigger but it seems like any T3-T4 hybrid turbo would work just fine for the 16v conversion.

[Russ Jerome]

Block mod instruction done:
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/showthread.php?p=929221#post929221post929221

Let me know when your ready to do head next.

[Motorbreath]

I personally think that there is a lot of stuff that cannot be in a kit.
Stuff like the dowel holes and the oil return holes. If you have a big enough drill bit you still need a tap. Not every one has a radial drill press and tooling.
A good kit would have to have good drawings for a machinst.

A complete motor package would be a better option and would probly cost a lot less in the end. although not many people (if any) would buy it due to its cost up front. My self and other have learned the hard way. just price out the stuff on fwdperformance + head +intake + exhaust + fuel system + calibration the list goes on.
If there was down payments for 4-5 motors it may be worth some ones time to do them.

If I could start again I would buy a complete srt-4 motor maybe a trans too.
It might not be as strong of a motor as mine is going to be, but the time I could of spent working more hours would make it as strong.

Some one send me a 2.4 block and I will make the mounts and brackets. but still need some one to do the electrical BS.

Thanks Jason.

[JuXsA]

I read the post on td.com russ...Awesome!!!!

For those who are interested in seeing the 16v stuff check out Russ's post on td.com

[turbovanman²]

Its definatley a tough call, but yeah, TD'ers are friggin cheap, theres no way they would save up $2000 to buy it all at once. Granted, I would love it but the only way I could afford it would be payments.

It has taken me 2 years to buy all my TIII stuff, $100 here, $200 there. I bet I paid a $2-500 more than a complete motor, and still need to get little bits and pieces, but I can't afford $1500 US all at once. I haven't been so lucky as others who find cars for $200, :(

[Russ Jerome]

It has taken me 2 years to buy all my TIII stuff, but I can't afford $1500 US all at once. (

Well when that t-3 head needs aluminum plugs TIG welded
in your gonna need that $1500!! Sorry buddy couldnt resist :)

You'll be fine with new Titanium retainers...DOH! I cant stop!

[turbovanman²]

Well when that t-3 head needs aluminum plugs TIG welded
in your gonna need that $1500!! Sorry buddy couldnt resist :)

You'll be fine with new Titanium retainers...DOH! I cant stop!

OUch, :mad:

But the money I saved from not redoing the bottom end and simply bolting it on, can go to the retainers and such, hahhhaahah. AND I get to keep my a/c, :eyebrows:

[dodge80_89]

I don't have a great amount of experience building engines, in fact this is the first one I'm doing. The one thing that helps out without getting a kit is that the machine shop I'm using is very knowledgable, listens very good and it helps that he is a friend of a fellow TD'er that is doing the same thing. He is taking care of all the plugs, and assembling and balancing the bottom end, then my job is to finish the rest. By the time it is all done, I'll have spent close to $4000 on this conversion, from getting the 2.5 donor engine, to new clutch, intake, exhaust manifold, exhaust, holset turbo, intercooler, and various other things.

For exhaust manifolds, depending on the head being used there is a number of pre-manufactured ones out there. I'm using a '01 head, and am going to get the slowboy manifold so I can use an external wastegate.

It takes time to do this swap, I've had my car for going on 4 years, and in that time I don't think is has been driven more than 1000 miles. I have quite a collection of parts for both 8v and 16v being I wasn't sure which direction I was going in. If I were to do it all again, I probably would have just done the 8v and been driving the car by now, but oh well.

[turbovanman²]

If I were to do it all again, I probably would have just done the 8v and been driving the car by now, but oh well.

I guarantee drive a car with the same turbo, one 8V and one 16V and you will never go back to 8V. I drove my buddy's basically stock R/T and I am hooked.

[JuXsA]

Here is the info so far for the 16v
http://home.comcast.net/~juxsa/carstuff/16v/16v.htm
I am ready for more:D

[tps25pentium]

This thread is a reflection of my daily thoughts over the past 6 months. I'm dying to do a hybrid conversion but my lack of experience/confidence is holding me back. For me, money is not the big issue.. but I have random questions that cause a dark cloud over the conversion process.

I thought about it hard and I'm going to attempt it anyway... what's the worse that could happen? I'm a pretty good learner and have a decent basic understanding of the mechanics/electronics associated with these cars.

To summarize, I have the following right now:
-Omni GLH shell
-2.5L shortblock (stock condition)
-50trim/Stage3 hybrid turbo

So you can see I'm pretty much at the beginning.. but if I can find a good "partner" who wants to make a little money on the side then the project shouldn't be much of a problem.

I guess I'll wait and see what happens.

Hank

[Russ Jerome]

OUch, :mad:

. AND I get to keep my a/c, :eyebrows:

You left yourself open bud :)

So you think you cant keep the stock AC in a
hybrid van :thumb: Too many projects and not
enough time, it can be done without unhooking
your funtional AC components I promise!

[tps25pentium]

hybrid with ac is possible???!!!

If so, then I'm doing TWO hybrid conversions within the next 12 months!!

oh boy, oh boy.. show me how!!

That would be so COOL (get it?? haha)

[dodge80_89]

So you think you cant keep the stock AC in a
hybrid van :thumb: Too many projects and not
enough time, it can be done without unhooking
your funtional AC components I promise!

How do you do it. I want to keep the a/c but didnt' think it would fit under the hood. Let us know your secrets, master hybrid builder.:nod:

[Russ Jerome]

If so, then I'm doing TWO hybrid conversions within the next 12 months!!



Your gonna need 2 AC brackets per vehicle, actualy "you"
need 4 total for 2 vehicles. You will need a welder for aluminum,
no facy TIG welding needed a spoolgun will be fine. You need
to run the smaller Mitsubishi ALT, unkown length belt determined
later. The area directly in front of AC comp and above Alt area
needs to be freed up, if its metal we are gona bash it, if its your
condencer we need to move it out a hair......see were I am going.
Will work, have motor in my garage and have already eyed it
up in my van with dummy comp, lines are long enough need to
loosen dryer hold down bolt.

[tps25pentium]

humm.. nope... I have no idea what u just said.. BUT a picture is worth a thousand words

[turbovanman²]

Your gonna need 2 AC brackets per vehicle, actualy "you"
need 4 total for 2 vehicles. You will need a welder for aluminum,
no facy TIG welding needed a spoolgun will be fine. You need
to run the smaller Mitsubishi ALT, unkown length belt determined
later. The area directly in front of AC comp and above Alt area
needs to be freed up, if its metal we are gona bash it, if its your
condencer we need to move it out a hair......see were I am going.
Will work, have motor in my garage and have already eyed it
up in my van with dummy comp, lines are long enough need to
loosen dryer hold down bolt.

Nice, but doesn't matter now. I have my new larger IC where my condensor was, condensor over in front of rad, bolt on TIII head and alt assembly, have lines modded, bingo, I am done, :D

I figured it could be fabbed on a Neon head but I am sick of working on this van, :(

[JuXsA]

You have any pix of how you setup the AC condensor?

[turbovanman²]

You have any pix of how you setup the AC condensor?


If your talking to me, check out my IC install in the induction thread, :nod:

[JuXsA]

i will check that out but I am also asking about the hybrid AC setup

[CDNTurboZ]

i will check that out but I am also asking about the hybrid AC setup

any updates on your webpage?

[JuXsA]

no.... I havn't had any time at all. I have not even really had a chance to do any work on my motor either. I just bought myself a real domain
www.juxsa.com
and I will be getting a real host some time soon. When I do that then I will be updating the website.

[Whorse]

Any word on this? It was getting pretty funny with the pictures and explanations over on TD, and then kind of just...stopped. What about head mods, ideas for manifolds, elbow and TB for intakes, cooling, firewall mods if needed...

[Nemesismachine]

I ran into the same problem, I pulled my 89 2.5 TI out of my old sundance RS, and its been neverending since. It is nice to see some of us not taking the cheap route, and attempting to kick TDs into the mainstream, like Hondas and DSMs. My car is sitting at a little over $13K, and it still doesnt run. Complete rebuild, GT30, .030" venolias, hybrid tranny, full cage, cell, SLH brakes, you name it. It will all be worth it to see the looks on peoples faces when a $200 car smashes their mustang into the ground.

[JuXsA]

but the problem is that its not a $200 car anymore. As it sits its a $13,200 car. I understand wanting to build up the car and doing it right but at that cost you might as well build up a cooler car. As it sits with my car, $2900 to buy it and I have over $3000 in to the motor that still in a stand. I also have over $1000 in to odds and ends in the car. I figure When all is said and done I will have almost $9,000 in my car. I look back and I relize that I could have gotten a 93 mustang gt and dumped a fe grand in it and have a car thats making more power and RWD to boot. Or I could have sunk all that money into my '65 galaxie and have an even sweet ride.

Am I regretting dumping this money into the car? Some times yeah but at the same time this has been and still is a good learning experience.

[turbovanman²]

I have and never will regret doing what I have done to my van. Its a money pit buts its the 2nd most practical vehicle I have ever owned. A 13 sec fully loaded Minivan is FUN, lol! And when I drop some more cash to go 2.5 TIII, watch out, heehhee, :thumb:

[jckrieger]

You know, at this point I'm thinking about just buying an SRT-4 in another year. Our cars/parts are starting to show their age and parts availablilty is falling rapidly. How are we going to keep building transmissions when the mainshafts aren't available anymore? All my a520 transmissions are unreliable due to fatigue on the gear teeth. I think we're at a time when the best alternative is to jump on the next platform, at least drivetrain wise. You can get an entire SRT4 drivetrain for around $2000 and for another $2000 you could easily have a 400whp car... that would be reliable and wouldn't have 200K miles on all the rotating parts.

[turbovanman²]

You know, at this point I'm thinking about just buying an SRT-4 in another year. Our cars/parts are starting to show their age and parts availablilty is falling rapidly. How are we going to keep building transmissions when the mainshafts aren't available anymore? All my a520 transmissions are unreliable due to fatigue on the gear teeth. I think we're at a time when the best alternative is to jump on the next platform, at least drivetrain wise. You can get an entire SRT4 drivetrain for around $2000 and for another $2000 you could easily have a 400whp car... that would be reliable and wouldn't have 200K miles on all the rotating parts.

Maybe, but the Skittles are still slower, :eyebrows:

[hybridshadow]

i've been taking pics of mine step by step starting with block prep. by the time i get it in the car and running i'm hoping to have a fully detailed set of instructions on ow to do a hybrid setup. i still think this is cheaper to go than doing a 2.4 swap
2000 for srt motor
1500-2000 for misc odds and ends to make it work in the car
4000 total for a STOCK 226 hp 2.4

so far i have spent very little on mine, but i havent bought the expensive stuff yet
2.2 engine complete- 99 bucks
2.4 head with 2.0 cams- 75 bucks
forged crank 25 bucks from yard or 100 from an individual
forged pistons 425 bucks
TII rods around 100 bucks (im using eagle h beams at 400 bucks)
head studs 100 bucks plus or minus depending on where you shop
main studs 50 bucks
machine work for head 275 bucks
machine work for block 200 bucks
gaskets 100 bucks
total so far 1824 (using the eagle rods)
result- bullet proof long block that will make tons of power and handle just about anything you throw at it
now add money for a turbo 500 bucks (holset hy)
manifolds- cloud car- 40 bucks or custom (guessin 400)
then theres the rest of the normal bs stuff you need
injectors, fuel pump, intercooler and piping, BOV, ecu etc-
guesstimate around 1200 to 2000 depending on what you can find or what you have laying around

1824+2000= 3824
and you have one bad --- engine when its all said and done, for around the same price as doing a 2.4 swap maybe a little less , and a lot less work with mating up to a different tranny or changing out 2.2 trans to 2.4 trans.
plus not many people are that good with wiring, doing the hybrid lets you keep the stock TII wiring and electronics if you want

it still is not a project i'd reccomend for someone who has never really torn into an engine, but since i have built several , plus done my time at tech school i feel very comfortable with it. but with the proper guidance and instructions its not difficult, just labor intensive.

if your comfortable with assembling your own engine and doing some fabricating, i'd do the hybrid conversion
if your not comfortable with that and want something a little less finiky and realatively easy to tune do the 2.4 swap
in the end they both cost about the same, one is more work than the other but hard work pays off as you can see here clifford humiliates a heavily modded srt4 in his MINIVAN! http://www.turbododge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121472
that single run sold me on the hybrid setup hook line and sinker!

the best advice i can really give is read read and read some more! do lots of research on here and turbododge.com -the 16v section there is much bigger and dedicated to just the hybrid setup.
if you dont know somthing ask somebody!

[CSX321]

Maybe, but the Skittles are still slower, :eyebrows:
That's only because they're heavy, though. One of these days when somebody completely guts one and gets it down to 2200 pounds or something, it is going to be FAST. The ones running 10s (!) now are mostly still full interior, air conditioning, the works!

[turbovanman²]

That's only because they're heavy, though. One of these days when somebody completely guts one and gets it down to 2200 pounds or something, it is going to be FAST. The ones running 10s (!) now are mostly still full interior, air conditioning, the works!

My van weighs 3600lbs and I can beat alot of them, :partywoot: If I actually got my tune done properly, I could beat most of them, :lol:

[CSX321]

My van weighs 3600lbs and I can beat alot of them, :partywoot: If I actually got my tune done properly, I could beat most of them, :lol:
That's because they can't drive! LOL

You're on slicks, right? FWIW, my SRT4 is faster on street tires than your van on slicks. 13.3 @ 106 so far, at full-weight (except spare and jack), and just Stage 2 and the Mopar exhaust for power adders. No tuning required.

I've got nothing against the older cars (obviously--I've got 3 of them!), but I drive my SRT4 a lot more.

[r00tcause]

2000 for srt motor
1500-2000 for misc odds and ends to make it work in the car
4000 total for a STOCK 226 hp 2.4


More like 1500 for the motor and 1000 to make it work.

2500 < 4000

Half of the things needed to "make it work" are also needed on a hybrid.

[turbovanman²]

That's because they can't drive! LOL

You're on slicks, right? FWIW, my SRT4 is faster on street tires than your van on slicks. 13.3 @ 106 so far, at full-weight (except spare and jack), and just Stage 2 and the Mopar exhaust for power adders. No tuning required.

I've got nothing against the older cars (obviously--I've got 3 of them!), but I drive my SRT4 a lot more.

Yep, on slicks.

How true, we saw that at the SRT Nats this year. Its still fun though watching there mouths drop when they see my van take off, :lol:

[CSX321]

How true, we saw that at the SRT Nats this year.
Yeah, I really got lucky at Nats. I couldn't believe it when I looked at the results after the first round of qualifying and I was 2nd, ahead of all those Stage 3 and big turbo cars. I don't do a whole lot of racing, but I guess I've got more experience than those other SRT guys. :)

Its still fun though watching there mouths drop when they see my van take off
That's gotta be fun! Turbo minis will always be the ultimate sleeper, in my book.

[TurboNeon568]

Kinda Off subject here but my current daily driver is a 93 5th Ave. You think maybe and older Caravan w/ the Hybrid swap and one of FWDs A413s w/ a tow n go sift kit instead of the manual valve body they offer would be a good replacement? Is it a good daily driver or would I be wasting time?

[moparfwdsleeper]

I love this idea... I recently found a 91 Spirit R/T with the 2.2 DOHC in it... thought of buying the car(it is not restoreable) starting a 16V build for my 94 seeing how im buying another 88 Shadow ES with a bad engine. I'd buy this product after iI've heard a few good reviews or so on the finished item. the CD opition is a great idea. any vendors thinking of looking into it?

[Nemesismachine]

That's because they can't drive! LOL

You're on slicks, right? FWIW, my SRT4 is faster on street tires than your van on slicks. 13.3 @ 106 so far, at full-weight (except spare and jack), and just Stage 2 and the Mopar exhaust for power adders. No tuning required.

I've got nothing against the older cars (obviously--I've got 3 of them!), but I drive my SRT4 a lot more.


.1 second faster? If your RT sucked, he can still take you. Even if it is a minivan, its all the driver. It would be interesting to see slicks on both of you guys, heads up. That would be one for the books. :thumb:

[CSX321]

I've got in-car video from SDAC-14 of Paul Smith's van beating my SRT4 bad! :) I think it was something like my 13.6 to his 12.9.

[turbovanman²]

I love this idea... I recently found a 91 Spirit R/T with the 2.2 DOHC in it... thought of buying the car(it is not restoreable) starting a 16V build for my 94 seeing how im buying another 88 Shadow ES with a bad engine. I'd buy this product after iI've heard a few good reviews or so on the finished item. the CD opition is a great idea. any vendors thinking of looking into it?

Just do some reading on the TIII engines, the head has a few issues. If you don't want A/C, it might be better to sell off the engine and do a Neon head, this would probably put a few dollars in to your pocket.


.1 second faster? If your RT sucked, he can still take you. Even if it is a minivan, its all the driver. It would be interesting to see slicks on both of you guys, heads up. That would be one for the books. :thumb:


Even if the SRT is faster, a Minivan is still cooler, :partywoot:



I've got in-car video from SDAC-14 of Paul Smith's van beating my SRT4 bad! :) I think it was something like my 13.6 to his 12.9.

You need to post that bad boy, :nod:

[CSX321]

You need to post that bad boy, :nod:
Here ya go...
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4813

You can see that I hadn't yet learned how to control wheel hop in the Neon. :D

[turbovanman²]

Thanks, cool vid, :thumb:

[Ken F]

OUch, :mad:

But the money I saved from not redoing the bottom end and simply bolting it on, can go to the retainers and such, hahhhaahah. AND I get to keep my a/c, :eyebrows:

OK, about keeping the A/C, which is important to me, I would like to keep all of the accesories. Are all the lines the same as the 8v motors? I know there must be different brackets, but does it bolt up otherwise?

I gave up the hybrid idea, but a TIII head swap or complete conversion seems simple enough (at least in comparison), and if I could spend $2000 on a TIII motor it would probably cost me less than my last engine.:(

[turbovanman²]

OK, about keeping the A/C, which is important to me, I would like to keep all of the accesories. Are all the lines the same as the 8v motors? I know there must be different brackets, but does it bolt up otherwise?

I gave up the hybrid idea, but a TIII head swap or complete conversion seems simple enough (at least in comparison), and if I could spend $2000 on a TIII motor it would probably cost me less than my last engine.:(

If your talking TIII, then you need the TIII's accessories, IE PS pump, a/c pump and reuse your alt but you need the TIII pulley. I haven't done it yet but will post up when done. You will need to cut and splice the TIII a/c lines with the van lines.

If running stock van electronics, you'll need a custom intake made to clear the dist, and 2.5 TIII pistons, Cindy has those. I am finally getting mine together next week as I finally got pistons.