Specs on this cam?

[mcglsr2]

hey everyone, i pulled the head out of a shadow in the yard for porting, etc. i've got an 87 slider head in my car currently, so i'll convert over to a roller cam along with the port job.

anyway, here's the question: what's the specs on this cam i pulled? it came out of a shadow, 2.2 i believe, TBI motor, maybe a 91 or 92? not sure on the year. can anyone tell me the specs on this cam? i can't find it the KC or that cam file that was floating around for a bit. are the specs the same as the 89 2.2 TBI roller?

thanks!

[Juggy]

TBI cams are diff then the turbo cams

I know most run the desirable 88 tbi but few are also running late model TBI cams....I have one here from a 93 spirit 2.5 tbi ive always wondered about as well

[puppet]

hey everyone, i pulled the head out of a shadow in the yard for porting, etc. i've got an 87 slider head in my car currently, so i'll convert over to a roller cam along with the port job.

anyway, here's the question: what's the specs on this cam i pulled? it came out of a shadow, 2.2 i believe, TBI motor, maybe a 91 or 92? not sure on the year. can anyone tell me the specs on this cam? i can't find it the KC or that cam file that was floating around for a bit. are the specs the same as the 89 2.2 TBI roller?

thanks!They are the same. Long story short, all TBI roller cams are the same. Only the '88 and '89 2.5TBI cams are retarded 4* ... otherwise , same spec's. Spec's can be found in the FSM's.

Duration @.006": 236/232
Lift: .430/.430
LSA: 113
OverLap @.006": 8
ADV/RET -/+ deg: -5
IVC ABDC @.006": 56
IVO BTDC @.006": 0
EVO BBDC @.006": 44
EVC ATDC @.006": 8
Intake Centerline: 118


Spec's good for the following roller cams:
'88 turbo (2.2)
'88 TBI (2.2) (2.5 has 4* RET ground in)
'89 TBI (2.2) (2.5 has 4* RET ground in)
'90 TBI on up ( 2.2 and 2.5 engines)

Square tooth to round tooth cam sprocket swaps don't change cam timing.
#690 round tooth sprocket is 4* RET compared to the #557 round tooth sprocket. Can be useful if you don't have an adjustable sprocket .. but want to RET your cam 4* .... or ADV it 5* I suppose.
There you go.

[R/Tony]

puppet so the diference between the turbo and the TBI cam (88, 89) is only the 4deg retard?

[ShelGame]

But, the 89 Turbo cam IS different (less durataion and overlap) than the TBI cam.

[turbovanman²]

Turbo and TBI cams are different and that cam your pulling from the used engine, you need to have it checked to actually figure out what you have as most engine builders just throw any cam in there and there are NO part numbers to tell them apart. Turbo cams had a T or Turbo stamped on the drivers side end.

[cordes]

Here we go again. When everyone can actually figure out the differences between the cams please let me know. This arguing back and forth is driving me crazy. I remember what I read very well, and reading things that are false, or may not be true really messes me up. :mad:

[mcglsr2]

Here we go again. When everyone can actually figure out the differences between the cams please let me know. This arguing back and forth is driving me crazy. I remember what I read very well, and reading things that are false, or may not be true really messes me up. :mad:

i'm in the same boat that you are. the two main sources of info i have are the KC and the cam file that was put out a while ago (which conflicts a little with the KC). IIRC, neither mention a 90 to 93 2.2 TBI.

so puppet, if i understand you correctly, there is no difference between this 90+ cam i pulled and an 89 TBI roller?

[mcglsr2]

sorry to start it back up again :( i wonder why it's so hard for us to get our heads around this?

[turbovanman²]

sorry to start it back up again :( i wonder why it's so hard for us to get our heads around this?

Because Dodge never marked the cams, so it makes actually checking them a costly venture.

[R/Tony]

Because Dodge never marked the cams, so it makes actually checking them a costly venture.

then how can I tell what kind of cam I have if its not marked?

The only thing I know its a roller cam.

[puppet]

puppet so the diference between the turbo and the TBI cam (88, 89) is only the 4deg retard?
Read what I wrote about which cams share the same spec's. You do not see the '89 turbo cam listed ... so, no it is not the same.
The 4* RET ... difference in '88 and '89 TBI roller cams only ... is between the 2.2 and the 2.5 engines.



so puppet, if i understand you correctly, there is no difference between this 90+ cam i pulled and an 89 TBI roller? If we're talking an '89 2.2 TBI roller ... correct, there is no difference.

For all other's with hurting heads ... crack a book (FSM) ... or better yet, download this file and have a look. You'll need MS Excel or OpenOffice to view.
http://www.merr.com/users/lkatuzny/Camshafts/cam.zip

[mcglsr2]

that's the cam file i refer to in previous posts. and yes, i meant this pulled 90+ 2.2 TBI roller cam = 89 2.2 TBI roller. excellent, thanks so much. this is my "new" cam :D

last question - did the 90+ shadows with the 4-cyl come in a just 2.2, or was there a 2.5 options as well? in other words, how do i know the cam i have is a 90+ 2.2 TBI instead of a 90+ 2.5 TBI? i know this is a moot point, because above it was stated that 90+ 2.2 TBI = 90+ 2.5 TBI. just curious...

[cordes]

Read what I wrote about which cams share the same spec's. You do not see the '89 turbo cam listed ... so, no it is not the same.
The 4* RET ... difference in '88 and '89 TBI roller cams only ... is between the 2.2 and the 2.5 engines.


If we're talking an '89 2.2 TBI roller ... correct, there is no difference.

For all other's with hurting heads ... crack a book (FSM) ... or better yet, download this file and have a look. You'll need MS Excel or OpenOffice to view.
http://www.merr.com/users/lkatuzny/Camshafts/cam.zip

Thank you. Having the actual numbers vs. a bunch of people giving "facts" makes all the difference.

[t3rse]

Are you having trouble with turbo-mopar's truthiness?

[ShelGame]

The specs that I measured (posted in the other recent cam spec thread) are very close when you consider that I was measuring at 0.01" lift (easier to read on the dial). The 'measured at' lift probably confuses things, too. The durations for the factory cams are spec'd at 0.019" lift, where the MP and aftermarket cams are spec'd at 0.006" lift.

Good spreadsheet, BTW :thumbs:

[cordes]

Are you having trouble with turbo-mopar's truthiness?

The last couple cam threads have really frustrated me. Lots of opinion, or "I remember so and so said" types of things. The posted spreadsheet makes everything clear cut.

[turbovanman²]

then how can I tell what kind of cam I have if its not marked?

The only thing I know its a roller cam.

Measure in the car or use a cam doctor, cam grinders have them.

[moparzrule]

How much can we trust this spreadsheets accuracy? The lift amount for the taft S3 cam is wrong. And also the FM475 only has .460 lift not .475 lift. Not sure on the FM505 cam, looks wrong too IIRC.

[cordes]

How much can we trust this spreadsheets accuracy? The lift amount for the taft S3 cam is wrong. And also the FM475 only has .460 lift not .475 lift. Not sure on the FM505 cam, looks wrong too IIRC.

I'm not sure how those values were achieved, but if the specs for the stock cams were taken from the FSMs that is good enough for me.

[mcglsr2]

bear in mind that the lift on the cams in the spreadsheet are different from those of the same cam in the knowledge center...

lol, on the journey to cam utopia :)

[puppet]

How much can we trust this spreadsheets accuracy? The lift amount for the taft S3 cam is wrong. And also the FM475 only has .460 lift not .475 lift. Not sure on the FM505 cam, looks wrong too IIRC.Spread sheet isn't my work so I have nothing to gain by defending/promoting it. As far as the stock cams go ... those figures are right out of the FSM's. That said, where are you getting your info Matt? If you have documented proof of what you're saying about those 2-3 aftermarket cams ... you should post it up.

[moparzrule]

LOL, take a peak at the Taft and FM websites.

[Juggy]

LOL, take a peak at the Taft and FM websites.



I will bust out the dial indicator and magnet...should be around somewhere (been a while since i worked LOL)

and give you the real lift #s for the taft S3 cam

I have other cams here I can test as well...

should be gettin my head back 2day!!!

[mcglsr2]

okay, so do i need to degree my new cam? the current cam in the car is an 87 2.2 turbo slider with a square tooth sprocket. the ported head will have an 90+ 2.2 TBI roller. i will be putting a "new" square tooth sprocket on the TBI roller as i don't want to change any of the pullys on the block.

intake centerline for the 87 2.2 turbo slider: 110
intake centerline for the 90+ 2.2 TBI roller: 118

i'm still learning about this stuff: do i need to degree the cam? or can i just do it like i used to: but the block on 0*, line up the markings on the crank sprocket and intermedate shaft sprocket, then put the cam sprocket small hole at the top? is that good enough (it's okay if it's like 1* off).

i guess really what i want to know is do i need to go through the hassle of degreeing because of the difference in centerlines, or can i just slap it on and run with it?

[Anonymous_User]

I will bust out the dial indicator and magnet...should be around somewhere (been a while since i worked LOL)

and give you the real lift #s for the taft S3 cam

I have other cams here I can test as well...

should be gettin my head back 2day!!!

I think the real problem lies in determining WHICH factory cam you might have. Unless you bought the car new and pulled the cam out of it, you have no way to know if it was ever replaced.

[puppet]

LOL, take a peak at the Taft and FM websites.Taft finally has some spec's up on their cams I see ... well within the margin of error I'd say compared to the sheet. Forward Motion doesn't have any spec's published. So ... ?? maybe Juggy can help with that one instead.

[moparzrule]

Taft finally has some spec's up on their cams I see ... well within the margin of error I'd say compared to the sheet. Forward Motion doesn't have any spec's published. So ... ?? maybe Juggy can help with that one instead.

Margin of error? wtf! I didn't know we only wanted to know specs that are ''close enough'' to actual specs :confused:

It used to be on FM's website, guess they changed it. It's on TDG too-
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_camshaft.html

[puppet]

Margin of error? wtf! I didn't know we only wanted to know specs that are ''close enough'' to actual specs :confused:You're kidding right? ... we're taking a couple thousandths in lift here on the S3. .. Come-on, it's a regrind. Line 'em all up and I'll bet you'd be "horrified".


It used to be on FM's website, guess they changed it. It's on TDG too-
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_camshaft.htmlI wouldn't go by that. ... neither would you.

[moparzrule]

You're kidding right? ... we're taking a couple thousandths in lift here on the S3. .. come-on.

I wouldn't go by that. ... neither would you.

So what...if thats off, what else is...and by how much? If there's even one mistake I don't take anything there seriously. You posted up that chart to end the great cam debate. Well since the specs are off on it with even one cam than nothing is credible. You say it's only that one, maybe 2 with the FM cam. How do you know? You didn't even know that the taft specs were wrong.

I told you, it was on FM's old site before they changed it. I remember it was .460 lift, I have a good memory for specs. I'm only using TDG to back me up.

[puppet]

So what...if thats off, what else is...and by how much? If there's even one mistake I don't take anything there seriously. You posted up that chart to end the great cam debate. Well since the specs are off on it with even one cam than nothing is credible. You say it's only that one, maybe 2 with the FM cam. How do you know? You didn't even know that the taft specs were wrong.

I told you, it was on FM's old site before they changed it. I remember it was .460 lift, I have a good memory for specs. I'm only using TDG to back me up.First off the taft spec's don't look wrong to me. "One" cam the S3 .. on tafts site states the lift off by .003" according to that spread sheet. That's the biggest difference in all the Taft cams listed. You think that means what exactly? Maybe somebody had a hair or a piece of flea ---- logged under the mic when they checked the lift? Maybe Taft screwed up? Maybe, that was the measurement of the cam the guy had in his hands? They are regrinds and don't all get ground at the same time on the same equipment with the same tooling using the same personnel.

It doesn't matter to me whether you think that one cams measurement on lift is "close" enough or not. Don't use the info and move on. ... but for you to put all the info on that sheet in doubt over that issue is just nuts. These aren't plans for an Atomic warhead, just cams spec's within reasonable tolerances. You take any given cam on that sheet and do measurements on a group of the same cams. Would that yield even more disparity than that .003" of lift .. between all of them? The answer is Yes. Why? That phenomenon is called manufacturing tolerances. These aren't custom made by some little old man in a forest with his lathe, mill file and micrometer.

BTW, there is no info on valve events on tafts site either. So nobody knows what's what there either then .. right? Steve of Taft cams posts here ... maybe we should ask him about this?
As for FM's cam and your memory .... lol, you're gonna have to do better than that. I've never seen those spec's posted on their (FM's) site ... ever.

[moparzrule]

Well everywhere I read everyone says the FM475 has .460 lift

Just a quick search via google-

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/213606

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f17/128095-fm-475-cam-centerline.html


Oh and Russ Knize also says it has .460 lift...
http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/perf/topend.html



BTW I had an S3 cam just a couple months ago and measured it myself. Even with 4000 miles on it (what the PO claimed) it had EXACTLY .476/.473 lift when using a 1.7 rocker ratio which is what our cars have.

[moparzrule]

BTW typical camshaft tolerances are .0005''...if you have a cam thats off .0017 lobe lift (.003 valve lift) right from the grinder, I'd say find a new grinder for sure!

[Juggy]

bump lol

still havent checked actual lift on my taft S3 cam yet, just got the head back after xmas n been reluctant to bother working on the car yet.

I will give you ACTUAL #s as well as #s with other cams I have here (so i know whats what...pretty sure most of them are TBI tho!!! well i hope lol)

theres a FWDP F4 (supposive) in town, but if we wanna get #s off that id have talk my buddy into pulling his cam for the experiment, im sure he would like to know as well.

[mcglsr2]

bump lol

still havent checked actual lift on my taft S3 cam yet, just got the head back after xmas n been reluctant to bother working on the car yet.

I will give you ACTUAL #s as well as #s with other cams I have here (so i know whats what...pretty sure most of them are TBI tho!!! well i hope lol)

theres a FWDP F4 (supposive) in town, but if we wanna get #s off that id have talk my buddy into pulling his cam for the experiment, im sure he would like to know as well.

sweet, looking forward to it :)

[turbovanman²]

bump lol

still havent checked actual lift on my taft S3 cam yet, just got the head back after xmas n been reluctant to bother working on the car yet.

I will give you ACTUAL #s as well as #s with other cams I have here (so i know whats what...pretty sure most of them are TBI tho!!! well i hope lol)

theres a FWDP F4 (supposive) in town, but if we wanna get #s off that id have talk my buddy into pulling his cam for the experiment, im sure he would like to know as well.

Matt checked the S3 in post #32.

The other cams would be nice, :thumb: