My car is faster than I thought!

[moparzrule]

Went to Cecil today, track conditions beautiful. 40 degree's or so, and sunny. I went today looking for some 12's in my shadow.
First run out, bad burnout I didn't make it past the water box so my tires still had water on them! I'm still a greenhorn when it comes to launching on slicks and/or doing the burnout to heat them up with a 5 speed. Anyway, just sat there and spun in 1st gear so I shifted into second and it bogged. I got a 2.8 short time and a 15.1 at 108 MPH. So I was like OK, I just need practice.
Early on there wasn't many people there so I was pretty much going around and running again right away. Got a couple decent launches but nothing worth mentioning. Next time up, cut a 1.89 short time but about the 1000' mark I blew an IC hose, found out the vacuum line for my BOV popped off and made me blow it on the shift to 4th gear. BUT, I still managed a 12.9 at 92 MPH!!! So I was like holy crap I still got a 12 letting off at 1000 feet so this thing has plenty more to go!
Fixed the IC line, got the universal all purpose turbo mopar item to fix the BOV line, a zip tie courtesy of Mike Marra. Got up there, did a nice burnout, cut a 1.83 short time and ran a 12.37 at 111.75 MPH. WOW! I'm pretty happy. Unfortunately on the next run I lifted the head and it blew the gasket. Think I ran into a little detonation cuz the spark plug procelain's were loose, kinda hard to explain but I showed Steve menegon and Mike and they had never seen that before.
So, I don't think a 12.37 is bad for a full weight shadow, 22 PSI boost on pump gas 93 octane with 2 gallons of help from some good stuff just as insurance (still a pump gas tune on my cal though, didn't change anything at all timing wise), and only 22'' M/T slicks.
BTW, all items on my car are self ported, stock valve swirl head, exhaust manifold, and 2 piece intake manifold all ported by myself.
If I hadn't lifted the head and blown the gasket I would have stuck some more race gas in and turned up the boost, changed my cal a little for some more timing and got myself some 11's. Damn so close.

Here's the 2 timeslips of the 12's, I'm car 105, sorry about the pic being a little blurry but I think you can still make everything out-
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/Timeslip.jpg

[cordes]

Good for you! That is great to hear. Keep up the good work and you will be flying (not that low 12s isn't flying already). :clap:

[badandy]

Good job...that's exciting!...but frankly I'm not surprised with you running those times from what I know of you. I am a tad surprised you lifted the head though...it sounds like your timing was pretty aggressive for 22 psi on pump/race gas mix. Aren't you running alky? No doubt your port work rounded out the package nicely:thumb:...speaking of which I have a 2 piece lower that needs alot of loving if your up for the task?

[moparzrule]

Thanks!

My buddy in his 77 trans am went down with me....he has a built 455 in it thats pretty strong. But he only wanted to run his street tires for fear of breaking the stock weak 10 bolt rear and I can't blame him. With my 12.3 slip that was him in the left lane! It was my best run, but his worst. He managed a 13.74@98 MPH with a 2.1 short time. Not bad considering the weight of the car, with some slicks and a 1.80 he would be low 13's no problem. I told him months ago when he gave me a ride in his car that would run 13's, and that I would spank him. I just didn't think I'd beat him so badly! LOL. He wasn't pissed or anything, he was happy with his 13.74.

[turbovanman²]

Nice runs, :thumb:

I doubt you lifted the head, you just simply blew the gasket out due to detonation, been there, done that, :banghead:

[moparzrule]

Good job...that's exciting!...but frankly I'm not surprised with you running those times from what I know of you. I am a tad surprised you lifted the head though...it sounds like your timing was pretty aggressive for 22 psi on pump/race gas mix. Aren't you running alky? No doubt your port work rounded out the package nicely:thumb:...speaking of which I have a 2 piece lower that needs alot of loving if your up for the task?

Well I'm pretty sure it lifted because that was ~the 6th time I used those mopar head bolts.
No alky, and I'm pulling about 14 degree's of timing at 22 PSI boost in my cal!

Just a lower? Need an upper section to match it too! Or are you going with one of Aaron's upper plenum's?

[moparzrule]

Nice runs, :thumb:

I doubt you lifted the head, you just simply blew the gasket out due to detonation, been there, done that, :banghead:

Perhaps, but you posted just before I explained to Andy that that was the 6th or so time I re-used those head bolts LOL.
I used the Gary D method though, after the 65ftlb torque I set it to 100 and made sure they all hit 100 before the 1/4 turn was done and they did.

I think it lifted because when I took out spark plugs 2 and 3 there was steam/smoke or whatever coming out of both holes so the gasket blew and made a bridge between the cylinders I guess.

[omni_840]

Nice runs :) Too bad about your HG

[moparzrule]

Thanks.


Andy, it is a little aggressive for a pump gas tune. Basically I was just using my CEL flash on knock and kept turning it up until it knocked and then backed it off some. I do have the knock table voltage set higher than stock though because I have Wiseco's. But I was looking at some of Rob's cal's and he's pulling 22 degree's by 20 PSI in his. BUT, I have a decent bit of metal taken out of the chambers in this head so I thought that might make a little bit of difference.

[badandy]

Well I'm pretty sure it lifted because that was ~the 6th time I used those mopar head bolts.
No alky, and I'm pulling about 14 degree's of timing at 22 PSI boost in my cal!

Just a lower? Need an upper section to match it too! Or are you going with one of Aaron's upper plenum's?

Perhaps it was the bolts but you used the method I've used forever and it's always been solid for me...however those bolts might have fatigued under the stress and heat? I'm assuming your prep during assembly was top notch?

14 degrees at 22 psi?...hmmm, I'm no cal master (yet) but I'm pulling 20 at 23 lbs. on the full throttle table...granted that might be a bit much...but 14 sounds awfully hot to me unless on full race gas or a heavy dose of alky

Just the lower :)...but when I tell you I want some loving done I mean as good as it gets. There will be a special upper going on top:eyebrows:

[moparzrule]

Also wanted to say that autolite 63 plugs are poop. Never had this problem with champion 9YC's and the 63's are suppose to be the 9yc equivelant. I've run into much worse detonation with 9Yc's, so much that I broke pistons and never had anything happen to the plug.

[Greedy]

Went to Cecil today, track conditions beautiful. 40 degree's or so, and sunny. I went today looking for some 12's in my shadow.
First run out, bad burnout I didn't make it past the water box so my tires still had water on them! I'm still a greenhorn when it comes to launching on slicks and/or doing the burnout to heat them up with a 5 speed. Anyway, just sat there and spun in 1st gear so I shifted into second and it bogged. I got a 2.8 short time and a 15.1 at 108 MPH. So I was like OK, I just need practice.
Early on there wasn't many people there so I was pretty much going around and running again right away. Got a couple decent launches but nothing worth mentioning. Next time up, cut a 1.89 short time but about the 1000' mark I blew an IC hose, found out the vacuum line for my BOV popped off and made me blow it on the shift to 4th gear. BUT, I still managed a 12.9 at 92 MPH!!! So I was like holy crap I still got a 12 letting off at 1000 feet so this thing has plenty more to go!
Fixed the IC line, got the universal all purpose turbo mopar item to fix the BOV line, a zip tie courtesy of Mike Marra. Got up there, did a nice burnout, cut a 1.83 short time and ran a 12.37 at 111.75 MPH. WOW! I'm pretty happy. Unfortunately on the next run I lifted the head and it blew the gasket. Think I ran into a little detonation cuz the spark plug procelain's were loose, kinda hard to explain but I showed Steve menegon and Mike and they had never seen that before.
So, I don't think a 12.37 is bad for a full weight shadow, 22 PSI boost on pump gas 93 octane with 2 gallons of help from some good stuff just as insurance (still a pump gas tune on my cal though, didn't change anything at all timing wise), and only 22'' M/T slicks.
BTW, all items on my car are self ported, stock valve swirl head, exhaust manifold, and 2 piece intake manifold all ported by myself.
If I hadn't lifted the head and blown the gasket I would have stuck some more race gas in and turned up the boost, changed my cal a little for some more timing and got myself some 11's. Damn so close.

Here's the 2 timeslips of the 12's, I'm car 105, sorry about the pic being a little blurry but I think you can still make everything out-
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/Timeslip.jpg

Congratulations!
Nice job Matt!
I would have been there to see it if I didn't have to work today.

[badandy]

Perhaps, but you posted just before I explained to Andy that that was the 6th or so time I re-used those head bolts LOL.
I used the Gary D method though, after the 65ftlb torque I set it to 100 and made sure they all hit 100 before the 1/4 turn was done and they did.

I think it lifted because when I took out spark plugs 2 and 3 there was steam/smoke or whatever coming out of both holes so the gasket blew and made a bridge between the cylinders I guess.

BTW that "method" I think originated in the very first 2.2 engine secrets book...at least that's where I got it from some 15 years ago I'd guess...not taking anything away from Gary as I've always really liked and admired the man for his talents.

[moparzrule]

Perhaps it was the bolts but you used the method I've used forever and it's always been solid for me...however those bolts might have fatigued under the stress and heat? I'm assuming your prep during assembly was top notch?

14 degrees at 22 psi?...hmmm, I'm no cal master (yet) but I'm pulling 20 at 23 lbs. on the full throttle table...granted that might be a bit much...but 14 sounds awfully hot to me unless on full race gas or a heavy dose of alky

Just the lower :)...but when I tell you I want some loving done I mean as good as it gets. There will be a special upper going on top:eyebrows:

Yup I made sure there was good prep on the surface of the head and block, even more reason for me to think the head lifted.

Right -14 at 22 PSI boost on the FT table. Like I said, aggressive for pump gas for sure, but with straight C16 race gas I've seen guys run advanced timing with that much boost!

Oh I see, well PM me and we can talk a little more about that 2 piece lower.

[moparzrule]

BTW that "method" I think originated in the very first 2.2 engine secrets book...at least that's where I got it from some 15 years ago I'd guess...not taking anything away from Gary as I've always really liked and admired the man for his talents.

No problem, I've only been into these cars for ~5-6 years, thats just where I read it thats all.

Gary's site is the BEST for a newbie, but I've done plenty of things since then that he doesn't recommend, and I've had success.

[badandy]

Also wanted to say that autolite 63 plugs are poop. Never had this problem with champion 9YC's and the 63's are suppose to be the 9yc equivelant. I've run into much worse detonation with 9Yc's, so much that I broke pistons and never had anything happen to the plug.
I agree in that I don't think durability is their strong suit but they have always performed just as well if not better than anything else I've ever tried. I like them because they are so cheap and can be repalced often. I've also heard that the cheaper the plug the more pure the copper in the center electrode...don't know if that still holds true though. I tend to replace plugs often.

[moparzrule]

Congratulations!
Nice job Matt!
I would have been there to see it if I didn't have to work today.

Thanks Mike!

That sucks, but I had to work yesterday so I understand!

[moparzrule]

I agree in that I don't think durability is their strong suit but they have always performed just as well if not better than anything else I've ever tried. I like them because they are so cheap and can be repalced often. I've also heard that the cheaper the plug the more pure the copper in the center electrode...don't know if that still holds true though. I tend to replace plugs often.

Same here, probably every 1000 miles, but they are hard miles and I only put 4000 on my car this year.
The champion plugs are the same price. But Advance auto is 1 mile from my house (where I got the autolites), and autozone is 5-6 miles and I was in a time pinch so I went with the 63's. Advance only stocks the champion 12yc's.

[badandy]

No problem, I've only been into these cars for ~5-6 years, thats just where I read it thats all.

Gary's site is the BEST for a newbie, but I've done plenty of things since then that he doesn't recommend, and I've had success.

Yeah:o We've been over that...hehe

I'm sure his site could use some updating and I'm sure even Gary himself would change some of his findings/information if he were still around and into the cars. I've done a few things differently too over the years and got away with it...but my luck seems to be better than most. I do tend to be more careful though.

Anyway...back to the topic at hand. I'd be willing to bet your car has some more in the tune. Once again good job:thumb: I'll PM you with the porting...keep in mind what I'm looking for and we will talk over the damage when time comes.

later

[badandy]

Same here, probably every 1000 miles, but they are hard miles and I only put 4000 on my car this year.
The champion plugs are the same price. But Advance auto is 1 mile from my house (where I got the autolites), and autozone is 5-6 miles and I was in a time pinch so I went with the 63's. Advance only stocks the champion 12yc's.

You do know we can order whatever you want right?...usually same day or next day at the worst. Order enough to stock up a bit;)

[moparzrule]

You do know we can order whatever you want right?...usually same day or next day at the worst. Order enough to stock up a bit;)

Yeah, like I said I was in a time pinch and it was later at night so no same day. But I had heard that the 63's were the same so I just picked some up.

Autozone has them in stock all the time, I usually pick up 8 at a time but I was out.

Send me a PM then when you got some time. TTYL

[moparzrule]

Yeah:o We've been over that...hehe

I'm sure his site could use some updating and I'm sure even Gary himself would change some of his findings/information if he were still around and into the cars. I've done a few things differently too over the years and got away with it...but my luck seems to be better than most. I do tend to be more careful though.

Anyway...back to the topic at hand. I'd be willing to bet your car has some more in the tune. Once again good job:thumb: I'll PM you with the porting...keep in mind what I'm looking for and we will talk over the damage when time comes.

later

LOL, yup.

+1, I knew he had been going through a divorce and all that, saw him on the list and even sold him a part a few month's ago so I guess thats clearing up somewhat.

I'm positive it has more in the tune, I didn't touch ANYTHING today in the cal or on the car. Set the base ignition at 12 degree's and let it alone.

[cordes]

That is a lot of timing, although it depends on what the advance from RPMs table looks like though. Pulling 14*s from the 89 MP baseline is about the same as pulling 4 from the stock baseline for most of the RPM range.

Do you have the values entered into the timing spreadsheet that BN880 posted up? I would love to see that. You have got the wheels turning in my head now. :thumb:

[moparzrule]

The RPM2 table I have set slightly more aggressive in the mid range. I used Rob's 89_22_MTX_3-Bar_SwBst_CE_Stage_+40 as the baseline. Not sure what that is compared to stock, probably a little more aggressive than stock by the looks of it.

I can email you my cal if you want.

Yeah just took a look at a stock cal in the ECU code repository, yeah tons more in the RPM table. I have 18 at the start and 42 at the end. Stock is 18 at the start and 27 at the end, so 15 more degree's there too. Mine also ramps faster.

[Bubba]

Nice runs there Matt!

[cordes]

bwcordes@gmail.com

Thanks a ton. If it is OK with you I will input your info into the spreadsheet and post it up for others to see. If you don't want it up that's fine too. Just let me know.

[moparzrule]

Go for it. Email sent.

Maybe do a comparison to a stock T2 cal? Whatever you want.

[moparzrule]

Nice runs there Matt!

Thanks!

[Pat]

Awesome runs Matt. Cecil in the fall/winter is a wonderful place!

How did everyone else do?

[moparzrule]

I saw brian Slowe run a 10.97. Not sure what was up with Joe and Mike Marra's cars but they didn't run much and what I saw the best run was an 11.7 so something must have been wrong cuz even last year I saw him run an 11.3 or 4 and he said he was packing some N20 this year so I thought for sure I'd see some 10's there.

[Directconnection]

BTW that "method" I think originated in the very first 2.2 engine secrets book...at least that's where I got it from some 15 years ago I'd guess...not taking anything away from Gary as I've always really liked and admired the man for his talents.

Yeah, the "books" always suggested to check with a torque wrench after to verify you have at least 95 ftlbs from what I remember.

[thefitisgay]

way to go :thumb:

sorry to hear about the gasket

[cordes]

OK, I put all Matt's values in really quickly and gave it a look. I think I have everything correctly in there, and there is a whole lot of timing going through there.

I have uploaded the 89 MP TII cal which is pretty aggressive, along with Matt's cal so there can be a comparison made.

[cordes]

ETA: It's interesting that I run way more timing in vac. You must do the math though since that program doesn't show timing in vac at all. That's the one thing I wish it could do.

[moparzrule]

Hmm, I don't have openoffice.org and it doesn't seem to want to let me install it either.

When I had more timing in the the vacuum it seemed to want to miss while cruising, so I backed it off. But I do have a whole lot more timing in the part throttle table while in light boost, where IMO when you get into it a little bit it makes the car GO. The stock cal is pulling 4 degree's of timing at 3 PSI boost, I'm adding 9 degree's!!!


Do you mind emailing me your cal so I can compare?

matthug@juno.com

[moparzrule]

Had to change some browser settings to get it to download. Nice work on those spreadsheet's Brian, that puts it into a whole different perspective for me.

I was looking at the difference in the stock cal and the MP cal, looks like most of the change is in the advance from RPM table. The MP cal actually has less timing at 15 PSI boost than the stock cal, stock is -15 degree's by 9 PSI and it stays there, the MP cal has -16 at 9 PSI and -18 by 15 PSI. Interesting.

[BadAssPerformance]

Nicely done! :clap:

[8valves]

That's a good running car Matt. Stock turbo/IC/etc? Or did I miss something? I thought I read this car just has a ported top end and that was it?

[GLHSKEN]

Congrats Matt....

[moparzrule]

That's a good running car Matt. Stock turbo/IC/etc? Or did I miss something? I thought I read this car just has a ported top end and that was it?

Thanks.
I got a large FMIC from Ebay, and an Ebay turbo too, I just wanted to see what the turbo could do and how long it would last. This one lasted 200 miles, and 3 weeks. Specs from what I measured are 46 trim T04E in a real E size housing, and .63 stage 2 turbine. The turbo is kinda blown though, ebay turbo's seem to not use inconel in the turbine wheel so the blades stretched and are scraping the housing. But nothing seems to be wrong with the compressor side. So I have a stock T1 turbo here that I'm going to make a hybrid with the compressor side of the ebay turbo, I took it apart and it seems to use all garrett components. So it will be a stock stage 1 wheel on the turbine side now but I'll find a .63 housing to put on it. So it will take a slight hit on the turbine side as far as flow, but should still be a pretty powerful setup.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/TurbineWheel.jpg

[contraption22]

Nice job Matt! Good to see you again!

[moparzrule]

Thanks Mike, would really be sweet if I was on one of the video's. What was your best for the day? Kinda seemed like I was the only one who was running really good yesterday!
It's really nice to know that the car itself, even being a full weight shadow, is capable of 11's with most likely under 30 PSI boost.
My highest trap speed of the day was 115 MPH, with a 13 second timeslip....when I was still practicing my launch technique.
I'm also pretty happy to get a 1.83 60 foot time on these 22'' MT slicks, they were definitely screaming for mercy though LOL.

[gvare001]

Nice runs. Congrats!

[moparzrule]

Thanks!

[Juggy]

good stuff matt!!
ya i 4got to mention I blew the headgasket at somepoint in my car too....all 4 cylinders were ovaled out...im running the ARP studs and only torque'd em down what they said, being 65-75fpt...i went with 70....but i read I should just be torquing them down to stock specs which is 90-95! The TU cal im runnin now is pretty much maxed out for timing as well, altho never had too much of a chance to play with the ones i got from you earlier because of that rev limiter issue i had goin on followed by a terror of other things leading to the worsening missfire then loss of compression in #4 hopefully the new seat doesnt drop this time around

[gasketmaster]

Good Job Matt :thumb:

[bgbmxer]

[QUOTE=moparzrule;409451]Thanks.
I got a large FMIC from Ebay, and an Ebay turbo too, I just wanted to see what the turbo could do and how long it would last. This one lasted 200 miles, and 3 weeks. Specs from what I measured are 46 trim T04E in a real E size housing, and .63 stage 2 turbine. The turbo is kinda blown though, ebay turbo's seem to not use inconel in the turbine wheel so the blades stretched and are scraping the housing. But nothing seems to be wrong with the compressor side. So I have a stock T1 turbo here that I'm going to make a hybrid with the compressor side of the ebay turbo, I took it apart and it seems to use all garrett components. So it will be a stock stage 1 wheel on the turbine side now but I'll find a .63 housing to put on it. So it will take a slight hit on the turbine side as far as flow, but should still be a pretty powerful setup.

go holset thats my plan

[turbovanman²]

Yup I made sure there was good prep on the surface of the head and block, even more reason for me to think the head lifted.

Right -14 at 22 PSI boost on the FT table. Like I said, aggressive for pump gas for sure, but with straight C16 race gas I've seen guys run advanced timing with that much boost!

Oh I see, well PM me and we can talk a little more about that 2 piece lower.

Yeah, race gas lets you run stupid advance. I was running 94 octane, alky and C112 on my 12 sec run and didn't realize my base timing was at 16 deg plus Rob said my cal had alot of timing, :wow1:

[85daytona]

Congrats Matt those are some awesome runs :thumb: did you get a race weight or no scale at the track? I'm so close to getting my car back together. I hope to dip into the twelves eventually :D

[moparzrule]

No scale at the track, but there's a local place to me here that I got weighed at. Car is 2750 without me in it, so an even 3 grand race weight. My shadow is heavy for some reason.