Upgrade ideas...

[tsiconquest88]

So what would be a decent upgrade for my 89 2.5 turbo voyager? I am thinking of doing some stuff but not sure what my limits are to stay reliable AND stay within the stock fuel level. Well i may upgrade to a walbro, however what injectors are then needed or can the stockers still be used and be efficient enough to take full advantage of the walbro at a slightly larger turbo and maybe 12 psi or so. Other than that stuff whats a safe boost limit for the stock engine and what upgrade turbo could be used with my stock fuel as it sits, without using a walbro. Obviously nuthing large but i would like maybe a more efficient turbo that can give little more power but not be too much for the stock fuel levels. Keep in mind for those who dont know i did intercool it. OR should i leave it as is lol. In addition whats the safe power level for the a413 tranny lol? It is shifting a lot better since the new filter kit, type-F fluid and 20-50 added in. Reverse is still shaky but whatever. Thanks all info is appreciated!!

[cordes]

If you are going to keep the stock injectors, you can run a healthy stock pump.

If you are running 12PSI there is no reason to upgrade the turbo.

You will be able to get better performance with larger exhaust and a stock rad/IC, but that is about all I would do if you are going to keep the boost that low.

[turbovanman²]

The best turbo to run is a stock Garrett, they are a wicked upgrade on a stock 2.5, I just did it on a customers stock Minivan, 14 psi rocks. No IC, stock everything except 3 inch from the dp back, large cat, Aerochamber muffler and exit before right wheel.

Bigger turbos will need more fuel, more boost so a cut-out raiser is needed or custom cal.

[JuXsA]

If its already intercooled put a 2.5in exhaust and get a stg3 cal from fwdp and it will really waken it up.

[tsiconquest88]

oh the only reason i am running 12 psi right now is cus i didnt know if the engine could take higher, thats why im askin u guys. I have the stock mitsu turbo so i also know that thing prob isnt gonna like 14 psi too long eh? But im basing that on the mitsu starion stock 12a turbo which i think is actually larger than the stock mitsu used on the van and that shits out at about 15 being too high for long term use, actually can go our on ya at the track in a few runs lol. Anyway so what boost can be run if say i went with the garret stock turbo as u say man, and im more concerned with what the engine can take. I have a new rad, and my intercooler setup i installed.

[tsiconquest88]

i have a 2.5 on it now with no cat btw guys. That stage 3 cal would be fine but with the mitsu turbo would it matter much or should i do the stage 3 with the garret are u saying?

[1984rampage]

Dont risk it at 14 psi on the mitsu.. My car is intercooled with a stock rad/IC and with the mitsu at 15psi on stock injectors I blew the number 4 piston 3 times... I now have bigger injectors and the car set too 12 psi... Havent driven it yet but Im hopin itll last!

[cordes]

I creeped to 14PSI in my shadow with just a 3" no-cat back exhaust and a straight through muffler and it ran really well. You just need to make sure that everything is running like it should and in good shape.

[1984rampage]

Ya, it mighta been a bad injector or cal as the car would stutter and hiccup a lot...

[turbovanman²]

14-16 psi is about MAX for the Mitsu. Provided you have the fuel, run premium and watch for knock, you'll be ok but a Garrett will make more power and put out cooler air. You can run about 20 psi with a Garrett.

Just remember, the stock cast pistons don't like detonation and if you don't monitor it, you will have numerous ashtrays, :(

[tsiconquest88]

The van runs great knock on wood, So do you think if say i ran an adjustable fuel regulator and upped the pressure and got larger injectors (or can the stockers handle that) i would then be ok with more fuel or is the stock pump only capable of what it has and an adjustable reg wouldnt really do much? Also i always use premium anyway in the van and all my turbo cars. Do you guys have any specific knock monitering devices u like or someone here make? just curious cus they are out there andmsd makesone but it aint cheap, and do u guys like the things? It is something i actually havent used and thought about it many times but with wideband o2's and all that stuff i have used i monitered all i needed, but the van im not going to buy a wideband for at least not anytime soon lol, unless of course i run into a damn good deal on one. WB is def not needed for what im looking for right now as im sure my autometer air/fuel gauge is good enough for what it is and even if i went with the t1 garret as turbovanman says, which i may do, what do the cars with t1 garret have for power over the mitsu in a 2.5 out of curiosity?

[JuXsA]

You can run 15psi on the mitsu all day long as long as your fuel system is up to spec. As long as your injectors and fuel pump are in good shap and your running good gas, your golden. I know of many people that ran over 20 psi on their mitsu DD for quite a while. I was running around 17psi on my mitsu with a stock fuel system and according to my a/f gauge I could have likely run another 2-3psi before leaning out.

Would you be better off with a garrett? Yes, but can you crank up the boost with the mitsu and have some fun? Sure, and as long as you don't go to crazy with it you can run 15psi on the mitsu all day long and not have to worry about it, as long as your fuel system is in good working order.

[tsiconquest88]

interesting cus dont they automatically cut out at 14.7 psi? i know mine does and i was told its normal. If i set my controller anywhere above 14 i get cutout. Remember i have a van and automatic so idk what u guys have maybe u dont get the cut but the vans do at least and im sure any of the smec equipped cars do?.

[1984rampage]

Running 15psi with a stock fuel system and a mitsu is running the car on the ragged edge.. Yes it can be done but if your not EXTREMELY careful you most likely WILL end up with broken pistons... Im tired of everyone telling people to crank the boost way up on stock fuel systems and telling them it will be reliable.. For some maybe, but for the inexperienced it will often lead to trouble...

Just my opinion

[tsiconquest88]

yea i def wont do that anyway, i know better lol. And the mitsu turbo at 20 pounds sound kind of rediculous, i cant see that little turbo even putting out anymore juice at 20, heck it probably feels the same at 15 and 20 lol. The 12a like i said i think is bigger, looks wise anyway over the mitsu used in the TD, but anyway it runs out of steam at 15 for the most part and 15 is already killing the little guy. Anyone know the actual size of the mitsu in these cars, so i can get an idea?

[cordes]

yea i def wont do that anyway, i know better lol. And the mitsu turbo at 20 pounds sound kind of rediculous, i cant see that little turbo even putting out anymore juice at 20, heck it probably feels the same at 15 and 20 lol. The 12a like i said i think is bigger, looks wise anyway over the mitsu used in the TD, but anyway it runs out of steam at 15 for the most part and 15 is already killing the little guy. Anyone know the actual size of the mitsu in these cars, so i can get an idea?

There is a comparison over on www.thedodgegarage.com if I'm not mistaken.

The key is monitoring the knock. IIRC there are a few guys running 17PSI non intercooled with nothing more than a boost gauge and a scanner to monitor knock.

If you have common sense and some patience 14-15PSI on the stock fuel system still leaves a little margin for error, but many guys have found out that you can't run it on a worn pump with injectors that are flowing significantly less than spec etc.

[tsiconquest88]

lol yea, well like i said alls good with mine, as far as my fuel pressure at idle, vaccum on and off at regulator, etc. according to specs i have seen on here. Hey what exactly causes the cut-out at 14.7? is it a ecu thing or is it the stock map sensor? basically what do i do to eliminate it? I cant run over 14.7 so i just have it set to 12 as i said cus i didnt know how the engines are, but if its fine than cool i will do the garret swap BUT why bother if im still getting cutout lol. Also what is the cut, is it fuel cut, some kind of limiter so u dont overboost? fill me in cordes or whoever knows.

[tsiconquest88]

actully now thinking about it, maybe its not fuel-cut? back when it was cutting out, it did it when i had the wastegate hose off (maybe it was overboost?) cus of that issue i was having for u guys that remember and seen the post, i had got the hoses and vac lines all figured out and then used a manual boost controller since my stock solenoid wasno good anyway either, I didnt try upping the boost to over 14 since then i dont think though. so maybe i can. I cant remember if i tried raising the boost past 14.7 or not since the issues were all straight.

[cordes]

The ECU controls the fuel cutout. It is caused by overboost which is set at about 14.7PSI since the stock cals use a 2 bar map and that is as high as they can see.

If you want to defeat the cutout you will need to run a zeiner diode or a bleed. You could run a custom cal too though. I wouldn't worry about it if you are sticking with stock injectors though. Just bump it up slowly while watching the plugs and stop just shy of cutout.

[JuXsA]

Get your self a stg3 cal from fwdp and you can run 15psi all day long and as long as your stock fuel system is in good shape not have a care in the world

[turbovanman²]

interesting cus dont they automatically cut out at 14.7 psi? i know mine does and i was told its normal. If i set my controller anywhere above 14 i get cutout. Remember i have a van and automatic so idk what u guys have maybe u dont get the cut but the vans do at least and im sure any of the smec equipped cars do?.

You run a cut-out raiser to trick the MAP, I mentioned that earlier, :nod:

There is a big difference between the Garrett and Mitsu at 14 psi. Yes, you can run the stock fuel system at that level but it has to be in good shape. An AFPR will also work. Running +20's on a stock cal will run very rich unless you trim the base fuel pressure.

[tsiconquest88]

I didnt see u mention about that cut-out raiser sorry, also thats what i figured with going +20 injectors with stock cal, it would be very rich. So basically i can do the following and be ok, use an afpr (what ratio do u guys think?) and i will stick with the rest as stock, use the garret, set to 14 psi. All should be good eh. Oh and of course the cut-out raiser will be needed to right? Where do i get them from?

[cordes]

by the time you purchase the AFPR and cutout raiser you will have been able to do your own cals with a couple bucks to spare.

[turbovanman²]

I didnt see u mention about that cut-out raiser sorry, also thats what i figured with going +20 injectors with stock cal, it would be very rich. So basically i can do the following and be ok, use an afpr (what ratio do u guys think?) and i will stick with the rest as stock, use the garret, set to 14 psi. All should be good eh. Oh and of course the cut-out raiser will be needed to right? Where do i get them from?


FWD or TU for both items. Tune the AF at wot then it should go into closed loop during regular operation.

[tsiconquest88]

Yea i figured to do a new cal i would still need to get an adjustable fuel reg and such anyway. No? more fuel added with the new cal would need an adjustment in baseline or something wouldnt it? I looked for the cutout raiser on both sites right after i read ur reply before but i didnt see it. But anyway, sounds good i guess a cal is whats in store.

[turbovanman²]

Yea i figured to do a new cal i would still need to get an adjustable fuel reg and such anyway. No? more fuel added with the new cal would need an adjustment in baseline or something wouldnt it? I looked for the cutout raiser on both sites right after i read ur reply before but i didnt see it. But anyway, sounds good i guess a cal is whats in store.

You don't need a cal just yet, just run an AFPR and adjust your fuel doing WOT runs with an AF guage.

[JuXsA]

I think you would have more fun and you would be safer if you just got a stage 3 cal fwdp cal and ran that. It will cost you $180 bucks plus a spare computer but you wont really have to worry about anything.

[tsiconquest88]

well an adjustable fuel pressure reg adjusts baseline, so i would need a 1:2 ratio or something. What do u recomend for a ratio? I also dont get what u mean about wot adjustment cus first off u cant boost in idle to be able to adjust the regulator if that is what ur saying, or are u saying adjust after a wot and see the response is on the air/fuel gauge (which is im sure what u are saying cus ur knowledgable) but either way a 1:1 ratio isnt going to do anything but baseline u can adjust a little more than a stock baseline but thats going to richen and mess up idle just to get an additional pound or 2 up top, im thinking a 1:2 ratio so i can set a normal base and let the vac of the reg boost compensate at a ratio of 2, and any more than that a 1:3 etc would be overkill.

[1984rampage]

I think you would have more fun and you would be safer if you just got a stage 3 cal fwdp cal and ran that. It will cost you $180 bucks plus a spare computer but you wont really have to worry about anything.

BTW... just so everyone knows.. I was running a stage 3 FWDP cal and had numerous issues at 15psi.. New fuel pump. new fuel line. new fuel tank. good gas. but it couldve been a bad injector. lol

[tsiconquest88]

juxsa im new to TD's but i would think a stage 3 cal is worthless without getting the adjust reg and bigger injectors anyway, am i correct guys?

[tsiconquest88]

lol this happens so often i type something and someone hits a reply in right before.

[turbovanman²]

well an adjustable fuel pressure reg adjusts baseline, so i would need a 1:2 ratio or something. What do u recomend for a ratio? I also dont get what u mean about wot adjustment cus first off u cant boost in idle to be able to adjust the regulator if that is what ur saying, or are u saying adjust after a wot and see the response is on the air/fuel gauge (which is im sure what u are saying cus ur knowledgable) but either way a 1:1 ratio isnt going to do anything but baseline u can adjust a little more than a stock baseline but thats going to richen and mess up idle just to get an additional pound or 2 up top, im thinking a 1:2 ratio so i can set a normal base and let the vac of the reg boost compensate at a ratio of 2, and any more than that a 1:3 etc would be overkill.

Ok, you need some basics here. The stock and adjustable FPR are 1:1, BUT the computer uses a preset table at WOT for the injectors, so if you turn the fuel down or up, you make it richer or leaner-understand?

If you go +20's then you need to turn the fuel pressure down as you'll be too rich, so you find a road, WOT and read the af guage, if rich, turn the fuel down etc? Understand?

You should be fine running a good stock pump and injectors to 14 psi but an AFPR is a good upgrade as it helps later on for fine tuning fuel pressure.

[cordes]

You don't need a cal just yet, just run an AFPR and adjust your fuel doing WOT runs with an AF guage.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat. I have spoken with numerous people who have not touched their AFPRs since they started doing their own cals. That can take a little time and patience though.

If you decide to go with a vendor's cal I would think an AFPR to be a must since most of them need to be adjusted greatly from what I have read.

[tsiconquest88]

yea well typically an adjustable 1:1 is adjustable at baseline and thats it and then under boost u gain more fuel via the port on the reg and usually without a tuning program of some sort ur not gonna be tuning much, just getting more fuel. However i am realizing the TM's have some darn good ecu programming ability over what i am used to for turbo cars i have been into. I am learning here man, I got this van and love it and enjoy comming here and always willing to learn about these vehicles. SQ forget it, junk ecu setups in reality and dsm u can eprom but stock ur not tuning much. SQ especially ur just adding fuel under boost with an adjustable reg so ur rich which is better than lean but ur not getting the power u could and the ecu really doesnt decide much just holds CTS values, mas, etc. very minor and small miniscule things. not to mention the 2 injector setup lol.

[tsiconquest88]

thats what i figured cordes. But yea i just want u guys to let me on a good road to follow for a decent powered van to squeeze out the most i can on the stock engine for the most part. I dont mind a bigger pump, injectors etc. However i want it a daily driver too.

[turbovanman²]

There's always more than one way to skin a cat. I have spoken with numerous people who have not touched their AFPRs since they started doing their own cals. That can take a little time and patience though.

If you decide to go with a vendor's cal I would think an AFPR to be a must since most of them need to be adjusted greatly from what I have read.

That is true but at this stage, it looks like he's not doing his own cals, ;)

[tsiconquest88]

i will if it would make sense for me too, i think im leaning toward ur other ideas first though.