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View Full Version : To re-body or not to re-body a 'numbered' car...



BadAssPerformance
12-23-2005, 11:46 PM
Just curious of your thoughts, opinions, etc. on re-body-ing 'numbered' cars.

Poll up top, comments below... Go!

banger68
12-24-2005, 12:42 AM
If it has major rust problems .... just rebody it. Then you can beat on it without guilt. :thumb:

85shelbycharger
12-24-2005, 01:43 AM
I dont' know which option I should pick...

If the car is rusted to the point where it has no hope, swap over all the Shelby specific parts to a good shell and make a clone. Just don't swap the vin tags and portray your clone as the real deal.

turbomopar87
12-24-2005, 03:38 AM
if it was me...it would be up to what has been done already. If all #s match now, the try to keep it, but if something major has been replaced, why bother trying to keep it original?

what #'ed car are we speaking of? just any?

Tony Hanna
12-24-2005, 05:41 AM
I don't see what the problem is with swapping the vin tag and dash plaque as long as everything else was swapped over to the replacement shell too.
To my way of thinking, replacing a body shell is like replacing a damaged fender only bigger.
For an example, say you buy a new exact reproduction tub for your rusted out CJ5. Since the tub "body" isn't original, does this mean it's not a Jeep anymore?

Now I'm not suggesting that anybody do a TII conversion on their Shelby Charger, hang a GLHS vin plate and dash plaque on it and call it a GLHS.
What I'm getting at would be more along the line of swapping EVERYTHING from a wrecked or rusted GLHS into a bare shell so that the only difference in the finished car is the lack of damage.

I would consider the TII converted SC sporting a GLHS vin and plaque a fake.
On the other hand, I'd consider the complete swap a repaired/reconstructed original.:thumb:
Just my .02

GLHS592
12-24-2005, 11:53 AM
Swapping VIN's is illegal. I'd be irate if I found out that I purchased a car from you and it wasn't what you said it was. Can you say "legal action"? I think swapping parts and such is fine as long as you are telling a lie. Don't try to sell me your 1987 GLHS that used to be a 1986 Shelby Charger.

BadAssPerformance
12-24-2005, 11:56 AM
what #'ed car are we speaking of? just any?

Just any...

GLHSKEN
12-24-2005, 11:58 AM
Got to agree with the above. Fine swap everything into a new shell... including the # tag.. just be sure to keep the original vin# for the car swapped to...

Nothing wrong with a few clones.. Just look at the General Lee

BadAssPerformance
12-24-2005, 11:58 AM
Swapping VIN's is illegal. I'd be irate if I found out that I purchased a car from you and it wasn't what you said it was. Can you say "legal action"? I think swapping parts and such is fine as long as you are telling a lie. Don't try to sell me your 1987 GLHS that used to be a 1986 Shelby Charger.

But would you be ok with buying a re-bodied car that came with a carepackage full of VIN tags and such as historical momentos?

BadAssPerformance
12-24-2005, 11:59 AM
Nothing wrong with a few clones.. Just look at the General Lee

lol, all of them :thumb:

GLHS592
12-24-2005, 12:16 PM
But would you be ok with buying a re-bodied car that came with a carepackage full of VIN tags and such as historical momentos?

That would be fine. In fact, I'd rather I did own the old VIN tags and such.

Personally, owning a numbered car is more like a chore than fun. My 1987 GLHS is too complete and original to modify. To be honest, it's a VERY boring car to own. I'd feel really guilty about modifying it. It is fun to get it out every once in a while in order to feel how turbo L-body cars felt like when new. Of course, that wears off fast because it is SO SLOW! I'm always nervous driving it in traffic and feel guilty about piling a lot of miles on it.

85shelbycharger
12-24-2005, 12:37 PM
But would you be ok with buying a re-bodied car that came with a carepackage full of VIN tags and such as historical momentos?

Thats ok in my book. Just as long as the vins aren't swapped to the shell and then the shell isn't portrayed as the real deal I think it's ok.

Millerman340
12-24-2005, 12:44 PM
When every one of these cars are gone, rusted,junked, ect then people will be like (why didnt you save that # car ) and it will be to late! .:faint: instead of changing one piece at a time to stop the rust just do it once and have it right.Just tell the next buyer know that you saved the car from certain death and re-body'ed the car.for most people if the car was done right they wont mind.Dave And yes I own a rebody'ed car, a 1070 challenger convertible that I'm glad to own an enjoy.

Tony Hanna
12-24-2005, 09:24 PM
Swapping VIN's is illegal. I'd be irate if I found out that I purchased a car from you and it wasn't what you said it was. Can you say "legal action"? I think swapping parts and such is fine as long as you are telling a lie. Don't try to sell me your 1987 GLHS that used to be a 1986 Shelby Charger.

See, that's the attitude I can't understand. Going along with that way of thinking, any GLHS that's ever had a fender, door, trans, whatever replaced isn't a GLHS anymore. You could carry that to extremes and say that since the brakes and headlights aren't original... For that matter, should I warn one of my friends that his wife isn't really his wife anymore since she's had a kidney transplant?:confused: j/k :p

Let me pose a hypothetical situation. Say you could buy a brand new replacement shell from Chrysler. We're talking bare shell here, no electronics, interior, doors, fenders, glass, driveline, suspension, vin tag, etc.
You buy one of these and use it to replace the rusted or wrecked shell on a car you have using all of the original parts. What do you end up with?
In my opinion you end up with the original car that's had a damaged part replaced with an OEM replacement.
The only difference I see in this situation and the one I mentioned in my previous post is that your starting with a brand new shell intended to be a replacement part instead of a used one.

As for trying to pass off a reconstructed car, I'd never attempt it. I'd be way too proud of the time and effort involved to try to hide what had been done. I'd have a detailed account of the entire repair with pictures and documentation including the paperwork for the replacement shell that would stay with the car if it was ever sold.
With that said, if I ever were to attempt a project like that I can confidently promise that without seeing the documentation, Shelby himself wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the finished car. If a thing is worth doing, it's worth doing right.:thumb:

In conclusion, I completely agree with Kevin about disclosing the work that's been done to any prospective buyers. I would however in all other respects consider a properly re-bodied numbered car an original and treat it as such.
Just My Opinion,
Tony

firebaron90
12-24-2005, 10:21 PM
I think swapping parts and such is fine as long as you are telling a lie. Don't try to sell me your 1987 GLHS that used to be a 1986 Shelby Charger

Upon reading this line, I could not help but think of the movie "The Crying Game" and that music from boy geroge......:drum:

JeremyL
12-24-2005, 10:42 PM
swapping VIN's isn't illegal if it's necessary to repair the damage. If you like I'll even dig up the federal code for you to read. There was a big debate about this over at camaros.net when the repop 69 bodies came out.

I've always wanted a # car to restore/drive & if I ran across a badly damaged one I'd at least attempt to repair/rebody it to make a driver.

Tony Hanna
12-24-2005, 10:57 PM
swapping VIN's isn't illegal if it's necessary to repair the damage. If you like I'll even dig up the federal code for you to read.

I'd kind of like to see that. I'd assumed there were legal provisions for such repairs, but I've never seen them in print.
Thanks,

85shelbycharger
12-24-2005, 11:45 PM
To me though, swapping the vin #'s is wrong. Just my .02

Tony Hanna
12-25-2005, 12:30 AM
To me though, swapping the vin #'s is wrong. Just my .02

I agree with you in some cases. Like producing and selling fakes of rare vehicles, or swapping vins for the purpose of making a stolen car appear legal.
On the other hand, swapping vins for legitamate repair purposes seems ok to me. I'm really curious to see what the law has to say about the issue. I'm assuming the vin swap would have to be accompanied by a reconstructed or "R" title to be legitimate but I'm not sure.

JeremyL
12-25-2005, 01:41 AM
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+368+0++%28%29%20 %20%2

Section 511, subsection a, b, c.

Tony Hanna
12-25-2005, 02:18 AM
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,

obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary

for the repair;

That's neat. I figured there would be some process by which the vehicle is recertified or some such. Maybe that varies from state to state though.
It's nice to know that repairs of this nature can be made legally.
Thanks for the info.:thumb:

GLHS592
12-25-2005, 03:11 PM
Like I said, I have no problem with a rebodied car. That is, if you represent it as such. I just wouldn't want to be sold a car that is represented as the unmolested real deal only to find out it's not. No matter how nice a cloned car is, it will never be worth what the real thing is. I personally wouldn't mind owning a 1986 Shelby Charger that's a GLHS clone. I just wouldn't want to pay 1987 GLHS money for it.

85shelbycharger
12-25-2005, 03:23 PM
Like I said, I have no problem with a rebodied car. That is, if you represent it as such. I just wouldn't want to be sold a car that is represented as the unmolested real deal only to find out it's not. No matter how nice a cloned car is, it will never be worth what the real thing is. I personally wouldn't mind owning a 1986 Shelby Charger that's a GLHS clone. I just wouldn't want to pay 1987 GLHS money for it.

I completely agree Kevin. I've been trying to say that, but you said it best.

Tim
12-25-2005, 05:02 PM
I got about a third of the way through that government paper before I couldn't see straight anymore.:blah:

I used to play around with the 1960's and 1970's Mopars for many years.

Keep in mind that TD's are not high value cars, in fact I wouldn't expect to see ANY of them except for maybe a super clean and original 16 valve car have a 5 digit value. It's not like these cars are so rare and desireable that people will steal and part them out, at least not much.

In any repair situation, I'd look at what had to be done, and if it involved a lot of cutting out bad metal and welding in new metal, then a rebody is the easiest way out. If the job is done completely, who's gonna know?

I know old (1960's - 1970's) Mopars had the last 8 digits of the VIN stamped in several different places on the body (radiator support, cowl in front of windshield, left side of trunk outline, in the horizontal sheet metal panel behind reat seat top inside rear window, etc). Along with the VIN and fender tags. I saw them many times.

I don't know if FWD Mopars are like that, I never looked.

Tony Hanna
12-25-2005, 05:52 PM
I'm curious to know everybody's opinion of what constitutes a clone.
To me a GLHS clone would be a Shelby Charger with a TII conversion and a GLHS paint scheme.
I just can't see placing a properly rebodied GLHS into that category. Sure it'd be a reconstructed vehicle and the value would be lower but to me it would still be GLHS #xxx, not a clone, copy, or fake.
I'm not trying to start an arguement here. I know my opinion on the subject and why I feel the way I do. I'm just curious to know the reasoning behind differing opinions. Who knows, maybe I'll see the reasoning and change my mind.

stampederunner
12-25-2005, 07:33 PM
I plan to someday find a glht and make it look just like a 86 glhs on the outside but have a 2.4 swap. I would never mess up a true numbered car so I will just clone one.

Millerman340
12-25-2005, 09:53 PM
A clone is a replicated look,just like cloning a animal it looks the same with the same DNA but will never be the same as the original. But if it is the original animal that needs a major rework in the end it's still the same one.:evil: > .:evil: When I did my convertible I sectioned from the body line up using the lower 1/4's and floor from the donor car & changed the whole core support without cutting the # or welding them in so I guess that it's not a rebody :eyebrows:

85lebaront2
12-26-2005, 12:11 AM
I can't speak to the Shelby Dodges, but back when I had my GT350, it had gotten to the point you couldn't total one, you could rebuilt it from scratch for less than it's current value (in 1981 dollars when I sold it).

TopDollar69
12-26-2005, 02:01 AM
I would say a clone is a car that has an existing copy. Like if there were two 87 GLHS 325s. Since you are using the existing car to make the other one, I wouldnt say its a clone, just a repaired original.

TylerEss
12-26-2005, 06:39 PM
I agree with the "rebody" crowd on the basis of "conservation of #ed cars". #ed cars cannot be created, they can only be destroyed or changed from one form to another. ;-)

The real knife-edge case would be if somebody worked at a crusher and found a #ed car... on the wrong side of the crushing machine. If all you replace is the drivetrain, suspension, interior, and body, is it still the same car? That one I'm not sure about.

Tony Hanna
12-27-2005, 12:10 AM
I agree with the "rebody" crowd on the basis of "conservation of #ed cars". #ed cars cannot be created, they can only be destroyed or changed from one form to another. ;-)

The real knife-edge case would be if somebody worked at a crusher and found a #ed car... on the wrong side of the crushing machine. If all you replace is the drivetrain, suspension, interior, and body, is it still the same car? That one I'm not sure about.

Yeah, there's definately a grey area around how much of (or what parts of) the original car have to remain for it to still be the same car.

My opinion on the case you mentioned is it would cease to be the original car at that point and the best possible case would be to use what could be salvaged in the construction of a clone. But that's just my opinion.
My main point was centered around just replacing the shell due to structural rot or damage from a wreck while retaining every other part from the original.

I guess there never will be a set-in-stone guideline as it seems that opinions could range from one extreme of just using the Shelby specific parts to the other extreme of everything must remain original to the car.
I suppose it's up to the individual to decide for themselves on a case by case basis depending on the ammount of work that's been done.

BadAssPerformance
12-27-2005, 01:09 PM
Sooo, what would you peole do with a car like this? - Click Here (http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/87_CSX_288/87_CSX_288.html)

8valves
12-27-2005, 01:30 PM
Never drive it, that's for sure! :nod:

I wouldn't mind swapping it around, but like Kevin said make sure if the day comes where you choose to sell it, to have the story complete.

On another note, in Japan the entire unibody structure of the R34 Skyline GTR has it's own part number from Nissan and can be ordered as just a bare shell. Many tuners pick these up and build a car literally from the ground up piece by piece instead of modifying the existing parts. Pretty neat stuff!

Aaron Miller

BadAssPerformance
12-27-2005, 01:32 PM
Never drive it, that's for sure! :nod:

I wouldn't mind swapping it around, but like Kevin said make sure if the day comes where you choose to sell it, to have the story complete.

On another note, in Japan the entire unibody structure of the R34 Skyline GTR has it's own part number from Nissan and can be ordered as just a bare shell. Many tuners pick these up and build a car literally from the ground up piece by piece instead of modifying the existing parts. Pretty neat stuff!

Aaron Miller

So the car should be turned into an R34 CSX? lol...

JeremyL
12-27-2005, 01:40 PM
Sooo, what would you peole do with a car like this? - Click Here (http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/87_CSX_288/87_CSX_288.html)


Personally, I'd pull the lights, fascias, ground effects, and interior. Put her on a rotisserie if I had one & replace any non repairable sheetmetal on the undercarriage with good panels from a donor base car. Even full floor pan replacement isn't that hard nowadays with companies like 3M making body panel adhesives strong enough for structural repairs. Blast off the rust with some sort of media & coat the entire underside with POR 15 or similar. The exterior bodywork isn't too shabby from what I can tell & it is certainly repairable with enough time. I'm not a 100 point restoration person, but I'd make a good driver out of it.

My 64 Galaxie was in a lot worse shape when I started on it.

85shelbycharger
12-27-2005, 01:40 PM
A car like that I would probably try and do what Jeremy just said, or replicate it. By replicate I mean swap everything to a good shell except for the vins.

GLHS592
12-27-2005, 02:18 PM
I'll just put it this way. I have a 1987 GLHS that has the original drivetrain and all the original parts. It is a fairly low mileage example. I searched for the car. I could have purchased cars that had more miles or had completely non-numbers matching parts. Some of those even had better paint and slightly nicer interiors. I would not have given the same money for those cars that I gave for mine. To me, they were worth MUCH less than a numbers matching car. I wanted the real deal GLHS and I paid the money for it.

riceboyler
12-27-2005, 02:58 PM
I know what you can do with it. Sell me the seats out of it because they're not ripped! :D

Sad to see that much rust on a CSX. I don't really think you could "rebody" that without more work than it's worth. I hate to say that, especially owning 2 CSXs of that vintage, but it looks like it's in danger of falling into pieces of dust.

If you do decide to part it out, please let me know about the seats & steering wheel.

Tony Hanna
12-27-2005, 03:45 PM
Sooo, what would you peole do with a car like this? - Click Here (http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/87_CSX_288/87_CSX_288.html)

I'd have to agree with Jeremy on that one. From what I can see of the pics, I wouldn't even consider it all that badly in need of a rebody. My first step would be to strip everything that's bolted into or onto the shell. From there, I'd either blast it or haul it somewhere to have it acid dipped. With all the paint gone and a good view of all the damage, I'd then make the call to repair or replace the shell. After deciding, I'd either start cutting the necessary panels from a donor car to repair the damage to the existing shell, or switch everything (including the dash support and any other panels or sections of panels containing ID#'s) over to a replacement shell. After that, it'd be paint and reassembly.
My main consideration in this case is do you have the original engine and trans? If you don't then I'd probably be more inclined to just pull the Shelby specific parts and use them on another Shadow as a clone.

8valves
12-27-2005, 04:46 PM
I'd have to agree with Jeremy on that one. From what I can see of the pics, I wouldn't even consider it all that badly in need of a rebody. My first step would be to strip everything that's bolted into or onto the shell. From there, I'd either blast it or haul it somewhere to have it acid dipped. With all the paint gone and a good view of all the damage, I'd then make the call to repair or replace the shell. After deciding, I'd either start cutting the necessary panels from a donor car to repair the damage to the existing shell, or switch everything (including the dash support and any other panels or sections of panels containing ID#'s) over to a replacement shell. After that, it'd be paint and reassembly.
My main consideration in this case is do you have the original engine and trans? If you don't then I'd probably be more inclined to just pull the Shelby specific parts and use them on another Shadow as a clone.

Am I the only one seeing MASSIVE rust damage to the frame rails, the entire heart and sould of our chassis? I'm contemplating swapping bodies in my car because there is a 1.5" crack in the framerail for some odd reason, and light rust of that rail, nowhere near what that CSX has. I guess I'm more nervous about these kinds of things.

I had an Omni GLH before that the exterior looked awesome, I was dumb when I bought it and checked teh drivers floor which looked good, never looked at the passenger. One good accident later and the rusted out passeneger front framerail (not as bad as the CSX pictured) snapped in half and was dragging on the ground, the firewall moved, etc. It was a destroyed car with 353.4 miles on the drivetrain. To me to put the money into the car knowing there is a danger of ultimate destruction highly upped is just a bad idea.

That'd be like throwing in a 55 year old guy who is a chain smoking, already had quadruple bypass surgery, one transplanted lung, a failing liver from alcoholism, and only one good knee into the Iron Man competition!

Aaron Miller

JeremyL
12-27-2005, 06:58 PM
The rust on those frame rails doesn't appear that bad but I'd want to take a close look at it after it had been stripped. Anything.. and I mean ANYTHING can be fixed if you put enough work into it. It's just whether or not you want to put forth the effort.

I restored a 60 VW about 15 years ago that most people would have tossed in the scrap pile. I ended up replacing all the fenders, both doors, hood & trunk lids, welded in new floors & a patch panel on the passenger side of the body. I did all the interior panels, carpeting, & finish work on the exterior with a bit of help from my father. Back then those weren't worth a whole lot but I did it anyways cuz I liked the car. I ended up selling it for enough cash to buy the 86 Daytona that I still have among other things, and the car is still floating around the area somewhere as I see it on occasion.

I grew up around old cars, hot rods, ect, and I've seen far far worse than that CSX. My dad worked in a shop back in the mid-late 50s & told me of a couple vehicles that they'd repaired that had been rolled over numerous times. Nowadays cars get totalled/tossed too easily since everyone sees them as disposable items.

Tony Hanna
12-28-2005, 01:00 AM
Am I the only one seeing MASSIVE rust damage to the frame rails, the entire heart and sould of our chassis? I'm contemplating swapping bodies in my car because there is a 1.5" crack in the framerail for some odd reason, and light rust of that rail, nowhere near what that CSX has. I guess I'm more nervous about these kinds of things.


You can't let it make you nervous man, it's only metal. Just fix it.:thumb:
Here's a couple pics of some frame repair I did last summer on a truck I had just bought. I got it cheap because of the rust damage, but the drivetrain was fine. The truck has shared daily driver duty with the Crown Vic since then and has even been seen dragging a loaded Kenworth log truck around occasionally. That's what I get for loaning my truck out ;) I put the truck up on a friend's lift every now and again to check for stress cracks and such. Even after some serious abuse, both repairs(the other side was just as bad) are holding just fine. I just wish I could say the same for the 700r4 trans.:mad:

blk86trbo
12-31-2005, 09:46 PM
Nice looking repair Tony.

I've driven cars that were way rustier than the CSX. In fact, I've only stopped driving one car because of rust...it was getting to the point that it would "move around" on it's own while going down the highway!

Paul

Tony Hanna
01-02-2006, 03:50 PM
Nice looking repair Tony.

I've driven cars that were way rustier than the CSX. In fact, I've only stopped driving one car because of rust...it was getting to the point that it would "move around" on it's own while going down the highway!

Paul

Thanks:thumb:
I know it doesn't directly apply to our cars, but I posted the pics to show how bad something can be and still be repaired. If you already have the tools then steel fabrication isn't all that expensive. It's all about the time and labor you're willing to put into it.

Tim
01-05-2006, 01:16 PM
Repairing sheet metal is easy. It's when you have to work with bends and folds and compound curves in the metal that things get difficult.

Don't look at it as a rebody, look at it as simply replacing some PARTS of the body...... and you replaced all the rest of the body at the same time just in case there was more rust hiding somewhere!


Just make sure you get ALL the VIN numbers and other identifying marks taken care of.:thumb:

Bardo
01-05-2006, 03:22 PM
Just don't swap the vin tags and portray your clone as the real deal./
now where have i heard that one befor :bolt:

supercrackerbox
01-05-2006, 03:56 PM
Sooo, what would you peole do with a car like this? - Click Here (http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/87_CSX_288/87_CSX_288.html)

Now that's the reason I decided to come back and read this thread. Excellent example. Bodywise, it makes my CSX-T look like one of Tony Fields' cars, but otherwise looks complete. My plan with my CSX-T was to find an 88 shell with no rust and a clean title and swap everything over and clone it, but with some good modifications too. I would have kept the VIN and original title together as momentos. Yours could go either way really; you could swap everything over and have it as a perfect restoration, or you could modify the crap out of it in the process. I would document everything and present it as a clone. I really don't think the current body is salveagable. Quarters, floors, framerails, bulkhead, rockers, and fenders are all shot. I guarantee at this point the wheelwells are also gone and even the K-member and rear axle are compromised. Wait till you get those GFX off. When I pulled the GFX off my CSX-T, I did most of them with my bare hands. Everything was gone where the metal brackets were riveted, but you'd have never known that the car had any rust without getting under it. I suppose you could still use the original hood though. ;)

DC Turismo
01-05-2006, 05:18 PM
My view on this is that I would be grief-stricken if I were to find out that I purchased a fake. I feel that it would be perfectly fine to, say for instance, swap everything over to a good shell if the #'d car is rusted beyond recognition or if it has been totalled. However, I think it is utterly wrong and a despicable act to our hobby to go about switching VIN tags and all. I like the idea of holding onto the VIN's as a way to document the history of the vehicle. But if you're going to go and get a POS #'d car, and then make a true clone to pon it off as teh real thing, that's just not right.

And pertaining to the comment above about how if a fender is replaced on a #'d car then that means it is not a true #'d car anymore, that's ridiculous. Those types of parts are made to be replaced. But complete shells of cars were not meant to be replaceable parts, otherwise vehicles wouldn't get totalled.

This is the exact reason why we cannot get replacement dash plaques for our #'d cars, because you'd have those dumb people who would just go about collecting dash plaques to make clones, then make a lumpsome of money off of their lie. It's a lie, it's illegal, and it's low. That simple. Don't do it.

DC Turismo
01-05-2006, 05:24 PM
Sooo, what would you peole do with a car like this? - Click Here (http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/87_CSX_288/87_CSX_288.html)

Part it! Now if we were 20 years away from now and the one who owned that had some body work experience, I'd say get some sheetmetal, cut out the floors and rusty spots in the quarters and restore it. But, as of this time, part the simple thing out in pieces other than the dash plaque and VINS. Leave the VINS with the car and send it to the crusher, and keep the dash plaque as a memory :nod:


/
now where have i heard that one befor :bolt:

YOU! :lol:

CUDA_TUGGER
01-05-2006, 05:39 PM
Wow. This is always a tender subject. The car deserves to be torn apart, the rust repaired, restored and NOT re-bodied. Somebody will do it. They stopped making numbered cars. I hate this subject because I look at it as old mopars are looked at today. The VIN swapping is wrong and I agree with Kevin completely. There will come a day when you will have the proverbial butt kickin from yourself for letting go of a numbered car. I have heard to many guys say they wished they knew back in the 60's and 70's what the hemi Road Runner was going to be worth. Or any high priced mopar. That crowd has some crocks trying to pass cars that aren't as they came from the factory just to make a buck. Check out this one. This is one 86 GLHS I WILL NOT re-body.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/692270/1

bfarroo
01-05-2006, 05:51 PM
I favor the idea of the shell just being a replaceable part like a fender, door, hood, ect... How much of the car would you consider needing to keep to keep it original? If I cut out the firewall and dash where the vin # is and then built a car around it would it then still be the original car? Where do you draw the line? Like others have said you can buy a complete CJ body to replace a rusted out one, does that mean it's not a CJ anymore. How I read the law is that it is not illegal to remove and replace vin information if it is needed to repair damage to the vehicle. All the original vehicle parts will be on this vehicle and it will be the only representation of that particular vehicle, not a clone(csx #288 #2 is not going to cut it). Now I do believe that the rebuild should be disclosed to any buyer and it not be represented as a unmolested original vehicle because it's not. And I agree that a original all #s matching vehicle should recieve a greater sale price in a collectors perspective/market over a restored vehicle. The big question is where is the line drawn as to what can be replaced and keep the car original in the eyes of buyers.

Tony Hanna
01-05-2006, 06:55 PM
I favor the idea of the shell just being a replaceable part like a fender, door, hood, ect... How much of the car would you consider needing to keep to keep it original? If I cut out the firewall and dash where the vin # is and then built a car around it would it then still be the original car? Where do you draw the line? Like others have said you can buy a complete CJ body to replace a rusted out one, does that mean it's not a CJ anymore. How I read the law is that it is not illegal to remove and replace vin information if it is needed to repair damage to the vehicle. All the original vehicle parts will be on this vehicle and it will be the only representation of that particular vehicle, not a clone(csx #288 #2 is not going to cut it). Now I do believe that the rebuild should be disclosed to any buyer and it not be represented as a unmolested original vehicle because it's not. And I agree that a original all #s matching vehicle should recieve a greater sale price in a collectors perspective/market over a restored vehicle. The big question is where is the line drawn as to what can be replaced and keep the car original in the eyes of buyers.

I think you hit on the points I was trying to make exactly.:amen:
What it comes down to is a matter of opinion on several issues.
The two main ones being is it a reconstructed original or a clone, and how much of the original car has to remain for it to still be the same car.
It seems like we're pretty evenly divided on the issue, and I'm not about to start saying the other side is wrong because they have the right to their opinion. All I will say is that I disagree.
Personally, I like to give the numbered cars every chance possible. They're not making any more of them and so many have been destroyed already.
If I or (in the distant future) one of my children should want to buy one I can only hope that enough of them have been well cared for or properly restored.

What really makes me sick is the possibility of the attitude "I have one and the more of them that are destroyed, the more mine is worth".
I'd really like to think that the majority of SD owners are above this way of thinking and have other reasons for not considering a restored/rebuilt car as an original.

GLHS592
01-05-2006, 07:31 PM
Well, the more original a car is, the more valuable it will be. You take a ONE mile Hemi Roadrunner for instance. It would be worth quite a bit more than a 20,000 mile all original Hemi Roadrunner. That 20,000 mile all original Hemi Roadrunner would be worth more than a restored 100,000 mile Hemi Roadrunner. Agree? Also, I would think that a collector would rather have a car with 100% of its original parts over one with 90% of its original parts. I would also think that a collector would rather have a car with 90% of its original parts over one with 25% of its original parts. Agree? In the eyes of a die hard numbers matching collector, a fender, engine, tranny, etc. isn't a replaceable part. Don't even consider trying to convince them that a unibody is replaceable.

That said, wouldn't you rather have a GLHS that has 100% of its original parts? It will be worth more money than one that was wrecked and spliced together with a 1985 Turismo somewhere behind the firewall. I'd think that the spliced together car would be worth more than a 1986 Shelby Charger with a 1987 GLHS VIN welded in. Does that all make sense?

When I started hunting for my GLHS, I was looking for one with the following criteria:
1. never wrecked
2. original drivetrain
3. under 50,000 miles
4. excellent condition
5. all GLHS specific items included
I would not have considered anything less than that. I just don't want one that isn't original. I definitely wouldn't have one that doesn't have its original engine or has been cut up. As far as I'm concerned, a "rebodied" GLHS is NOT a GLHS, period. In the state of Tennessee, VIN swapping is illegal. Cars can be rebuilt. These rebuilds will carry the rebuilt status on the title.

You can argue all day that a unibody/shell is a replaceable part. I don't see it as such. A rebodied 1987 GLHS, using a 1986 Shelby Charger shell, just isn't the same 1987 GLHS that left the factory.

Tony Hanna
01-05-2006, 08:55 PM
Kevin, I agree completely about the value vs. the ammount of work done to the car. To me though, the example you mentioned of an '87 GLHS rebuilt using an '86 SC unibody would be worth more than an original '87 GLHS that has been spliced together with a Turismo behind the firewall. That's a safety issue for me. I'd feel alot more confident in a shell replacement than I would in one that had been spliced unless the work was done by myself or someone I trusted.
The unibody/shell to me is just one part among the many that make up a car.
I'm sure it wasn't intended to be replacable but for a cost vs. benefit reason not the originality of the car.
In my opinion, as long as any part is replaced with an identical part for the purpose of repair then the car remains the same. Sure, the value goes down because it's no longer the part that was put on at the factory, but that doesn't change the car's identity. I'm not trying to be a smart @$$ here, but really, did Shelby use some special unobtanium material to create a unibody structure for the GLHS that just resembles an SC? Where's the difference?:confused:

GLHS592
01-05-2006, 09:53 PM
The unibody/shell to me is just one part among the many that make up a car. I'm sure it wasn't intended to be replacable but for a cost vs. benefit reason not the originality of the car.

I sure as heck wouldn't rebuild a GLHS unibody if the floors and frame rails were rusted out. Cost wise, it would be better to put the GLHS parts into another 2 door L-body. It would probably never be right if you did try to fix it anyway.

I don't care what anybody says, it is illegal and unethical to "rebody" a 1987 GLHS into a 1986 Shelby Charger and call it a 1987 GLHS. It will always be a 1986 Shelby Charger with 1987 GLHS parts bolted on. The only way I'd own such a car is if I paid 1986 Shelby Charger money for it. I'd definitely feel ripped off if I paid 1987 GLHS money for it. AND, like I said before, I have no problem with such a car as long as the VIN's stay with their original chassis. It would be dishonest to represent the car as a real 1987 GLHS.


In my opinion, as long as any part is replaced with an identical part for the purpose of repair then the car remains the same. Sure, the value goes down because it's no longer the part that was put on at the factory, but that doesn't change the car's identity. I'm not trying to be a smart @$$ here, but really, did Shelby use some special unobtanium material to create a unibody structure for the GLHS that just resembles an SC? Where's the difference?:confused:

Don't play dumb here. You know it has nothing to do with the material of the chassis. You are correct that both of the body structures are the same basic part. Cars come with Vehicle Identification Numbers for a reason. It is illegal to swap them. That's it.

This thread really bothers me. I just can't believe the people here that condone illegal activity. :(

S-BOX-turbo
01-05-2006, 10:02 PM
The problem is that people are using their numbered cars for winter beaters and not properly storing them. How much does it cost to get a non-numbered car for winter transportation. Hell I picked up a 1991 AWD Mitsu eclipse for 1K so that I do not need to drive a good car in the winter.

S-BOX-turbo
01-05-2006, 10:08 PM
This thread really bothers me. I just can't believe the people here that condone illegal activity. :(


NO. You can do anything that you want with your VIN including swaping the tags to a new body if it is accurate. What is illegal is stating that it is a 10K mile oringinal GLHS Omni and getting six times the money.

The Sunbeam tiger club officially santions the rebodying into the tiger into the original plane jane car as a legitimate way of keeping the mark alive and that the tiger like the Shelby cars are all conversions of base cars:amen:

jre97
01-05-2006, 10:27 PM
Sooo, what would you peole do with a car like this? - Click Here (http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/87_CSX_288/87_CSX_288.html)
That all depends on your level of skill and or finances. I don't know if anyone makes patch panels but with a donor car you could easily make your own and that would (in my opinion) end the debate of whether or not it's still an authentic numbered car because you are not switching vin's etc... Just some spot weld drilling and some well placed cuts, then weld it back together. Of course I would at least have the affected areas sand or media blasted. It's only metal with some rust on it don't let it scare you. Where there's a will there's a way. Not to mention if this numbered car is destroyed it will only increase the value of other numbered cars because they will be even more rare. I would go with a full restoration.
And Tony I'm pretty sure she's still my wife, she's just as crabby as she ever was. Oh yeah and that's a nice repair panel on your truck frame if i do say so myself,lol. Who cut that? Oh wait it was ME!

GLHS592
01-05-2006, 11:05 PM
NO. You can do anything that you want with your VIN including swaping the tags to a new body if it is accurate.

I'd like to see proof of that. All I know is you can't legally do it here in TN.

Tony Hanna
01-06-2006, 12:09 AM
I sure as heck wouldn't rebuild a GLHS unibody if the floors and frame rails were rusted out. Cost wise, it would be better to put the GLHS parts into another 2 door L-body. It would probably never be right if you did try to fix it anyway.

Agreed, other than the never be right part. That like anything else depends on the skill of the person doing the work and the time/effort/money involved to do it properly. Men built these cars from nothing. It stands to reason that men can rebuild them from almost nothing. There is one person (excluding myself) that I know personally who I would trust to safely complete a repair of that nature and we usually work together on projects of that scale.
That's not to say there aren't a bunch of people skilled enough to pull it off, just that I don't know them (very well).



I don't care what anybody says, it is illegal and unethical to "rebody" a 1987 GLHS into a 1986 Shelby Charger and call it a 1987 GLHS. It will always be a 1986 Shelby Charger with 1987 GLHS parts bolted on. The only way I'd own such a car is if I paid 1986 Shelby Charger money for it. I'd definitely feel ripped off if I paid 1987 GLHS money for it. AND, like I said before, I have no problem with such a car as long as the VIN's stay with their original chassis. It would be dishonest to represent the car as a real 1987 GLHS.

This is why I posted earlier that it's all a difference of opinion and as such it's likely no common ground will ever be reached. From the statement "I don't care what anybody says" I gather that even Shelby himself contradicting your opinion wouldn't be enough. Proof of the legality as far as the federal government is concerned evidently wasn't.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with buying an '87 GLHS that had been rebodied and the vin swapped. I would have a problem with not being made aware of the rebody prior to purchase. And, as you said, I wouldn't pay unrestored original GLHS money for it. With that said, I would still consider the car a real GLHS.




Don't play dumb here. You know it has nothing to do with the material of the chassis. You are correct that both of the body structures are the same basic part. Cars come with Vehicle Identification Numbers for a reason. It is illegal to swap them. That's it.

You're absolutely right. I was just trying to prove the point that there is no functional or cosmetic difference between the bare shells. I must confess that I was hoping that you'd concede the point that every '87 GLHS started life as a Shelby Charger but that's good enough. As for the legality of swapping VINs, it's ok according to federal law. I'll admit that I haven't researched the state laws, but I'd be willing to bet that there is a provision in most states that renders the act legal for legitimate repair purposes. I'll do some digging and see what WV has to say about it.



This thread really bothers me. I just can't believe the people here that condone illegal activity. :(

Don't let it bother you man. People have had differing opinions as long as there have been people. If we all agreed on everything, the world would be a pretty dull place and we wouldn't have any interesting discussions like this to occupy our minds on rainy winter days.:thumb:
Take Care,

GLHS592
01-06-2006, 12:25 AM
This is why I posted earlier that it's all a difference of opinion and as such it's likely no common ground will ever be reached.

I guess it is an opinion. It's just the law states it is illegal. That's all I'm pointing out.


From the statement "I don't care what anybody says" I gather that even Shelby himself contradicting your opinion wouldn't be enough. Proof of the legality as far as the federal government is concerned evidently wasn't.

I don't care what Carroll Shelby says. It is illegal.


I would have a problem with not being made aware of the rebody prior to purchase. And, as you said, I wouldn't pay unrestored original GLHS money for it. With that said, I would still consider the car a real GLHS.

If you would consider the car a real GLHS, then why would it bother you if somebody DID NOT make you aware of the fact that it had been a rebody? That sounds a little contradictory to me.


You're absolutely right. I was just trying to prove the point that there is no functional or cosmetic difference between the bare shells. I must confess that I was hoping that you'd concede the point that every '87 GLHS started life as a Shelby Charger but that's good enough.

:confused: When did I say a GLHS didn't start out as a Shelby Charger? I think you're reaching here.


As for the legality of swapping VINs, it's ok according to federal law. I'll admit that I haven't researched the state laws, but I'd be willing to bet that there is a provision in most states that renders the act legal for legitimate repair purposes. I'll do some digging and see what WV has to say about it.

If it is legal, it's news to me. I know it isn't in Tennessee.

Yes, it does bother me. I don't want to buy something that is represented as something it's not. Why swap the VIN if you aren't going to misrepresent the car? I see no other reason to do so. :confused:

Whorse
01-06-2006, 12:33 AM
It's tough to say where you draw the line of fixing a vehicle with stock parts and keeping it stock, and changing too much of what's original to consider it stock.

If I changed every part on my Lebaron VNT with the exact same part, bought from my local chrysler dealership, but the car looked exactly the same, had the same VIN, same decals, and basically looked like it was brand new, I'd still say it's the same car because that's what I started from, I just fixed all the problems, which may or may not have been every part on the car.

A bit extreme, but it brings up a point. At which point is fixing not really just 'fixing' anymore?

Tony Hanna
01-06-2006, 12:46 AM
And Tony I'm pretty sure she's still my wife, she's just as crabby as she ever was. Oh yeah and that's a nice repair panel on your truck frame if i do say so myself,lol. Who cut that? Oh wait it was ME!

ROFL! Well hopefully after Tiff and I finally get a place we'll be able to send the girls off together to shop or whatever and we'll have a proper garage to work in.:thumb:
Did we run the torch out of oxygen on that side or the other one? I remember doing a bunch of cutting with a cutoff wheel but that might have been the side I did while you were at work.:confused:

turbomurr
01-06-2006, 01:03 AM
WOW! aside from what perhaps should be done and maybe shouldn't be done.............considering all opinions..............the bottom line for me would be how you feel about the work that would have to be done.............in my case i would not enjoy spending hours under a car cutting, splicing, grinding, body filling and so on...............swapping parts, nuts, bolts, painting pieces as you go and so on is much nicer work to do............that would be my deciding factor.............

Murray Northam
85 Shelby Charger

Tony Hanna
01-06-2006, 01:46 AM
I guess it is an opinion. It's just the law states it is illegal. That's all I'm pointing out.

And in TN it may very well be, but I'd be really surprised if the majority of states don't offer some provision for legitimate repairs since the federal law does.



If you would consider the car a real GLHS, then why would it bother you if somebody DID NOT make you aware of the fact that it had been a rebody? That sounds a little contradictory to me.

Not at all. I just feel that full disclosure of any major work performed to any type of vehicle (numbered car or otherwise) is a good honest practice.
Just because I'd consider it a real GLHS and not a fake doesn't mean I don't want to know the cars history.




:confused: When did I say a GLHS didn't start out as a Shelby Charger? I think you're reaching here.

You didn't. I was just trying to illustrate the fact that they started out as Shelby Chargers to support my point about replacing identical parts.
Sorry if I was reaching, I didn't intend to.



If it is legal, it's news to me. I know it isn't in Tennessee.


It is legal according to federal law. There's a link to the specific section earlier in this thread.
I'm curious then to see how 'glass (or replacement steel) tub Jeep owners and kit car builders in TN approach the situation. If it is actually illegal with no loopholes or provisions for repair, then there has to be a bunch of illegal CJ's running around the state.
I know in WV when a repair involving major parts from two seperate vehicles is involved there is a process that requires sending in both vehicle titles and photographic evidence of the work performed. The result is an "assembled" vehicle title. By law this is even required for engine and trans swaps, but nobody I know bothers with it for that.



Yes, it does bother me. I don't want to buy something that is represented as something it's not. Why swap the VIN if you aren't going to misrepresent the car? I see no other reason to do so. :confused:

I wouldn't want to buy a misrepresented car either. That's why I feel the way I do about disclosure of any major work done. I completely agree with you that a rebody is going to be worth less than an unrestored example, but to me it is still a GLHS and worth more than a Shelby Charger with a TII conversion and a GLHS paint scheme. The latter is what I'd consider a clone.
Take Care,

GLHS592
01-06-2006, 09:56 AM
And in TN it may very well be, but I'd be really surprised if the majority of states don't offer some provision for legitimate repairs since the federal law does.

TN does offer provisions for repairs. TN does not allow VIN's to be swapped.


Not at all. I just feel that full disclosure of any major work performed to any type of vehicle (numbered car or otherwise) is a good honest practice. Just because I'd consider it a real GLHS and not a fake doesn't mean I don't want to know the cars history.

You didn't. I was just trying to illustrate the fact that they started out as Shelby Chargers to support my point about replacing identical parts.
Sorry if I was reaching, I didn't intend to.

If it's just a body/shell/chassis, then why bother swapping the VIN? Swap all the parts to the rust free body and don't worry about it.


I'm curious then to see how 'glass (or replacement steel) tub Jeep owners and kit car builders in TN approach the situation. If it is actually illegal with no loopholes or provisions for repair, then there has to be a bunch of illegal CJ's running around the state.

TN allows repair. Repair doesn't constitute VIN swapping.


I wouldn't want to buy a misrepresented car either. That's why I feel the way I do about disclosure of any major work done. I completely agree with you that a rebody is going to be worth less than an unrestored example, but to me it is still a GLHS and worth more than a Shelby Charger with a TII conversion and a GLHS paint scheme. The latter is what I'd consider a clone.
Take Care,

I see no other reason to swap VIN's other than trying to be dishonest. If the bodies are the same and all you want is something that looks like a GLHS, then the numbers shouldn't matter. I see swapping the VIN only as an attempt to make the lesser value car become more valuable. I see no difference in swapping a GLHS VIN into a Shelby Charger and swapping the GLHS VIN into a 1984 Chrysler Lazer. It is making a car something it's not in both cases.

Let's say you were honest about letting the buyer know you swapped a 1987 GLHS VIN into a Shelby Charger. Will the next guy be so honest? He may tell me that it is a real GLHS. If you were good at what you do and made the swap perfect, I may purchase a fake car. When I found out about it, we'd have a problem. Swapping a VIN like that could possibly cause you some legal problems down the road.

Clay
01-06-2006, 11:34 AM
I'm curious to know everybody's opinion of what constitutes a clone.

any car that looks like the original, that started out as something else.

Be it a rebody with all the correct parts, or just a car painted to look like another, they are both clones.

Clay
01-06-2006, 11:36 AM
Keep in mind that TD's are not high value cars, in fact I wouldn't expect to see ANY of them except for maybe a super clean and original 16 valve car have a 5 digit value.

Actually, 86 GLHS' are already going for "5 digit values".

16 valve cars, while rare and desirable, are not numbered cars, and currently have a long way to go to catch up with numbered car values.

Clay
01-06-2006, 11:47 AM
To ME, if you replace a fender, fine, if you replace a block fine, if you replace a rear quarter fine......... but dont go taking all the good parts from a rusted out wreck of a car (ex: GLHS), put it on another solid car (ex: shelby charger/turismo/what ever), put the old car (ex: GLHS) VIN plate/fender tag on the different car, and call it what the old car was (ex: GLHS).

Its NOT the same car. It may look the same, it may smell the same, it may even taste the same....... but it is NOT the same. ie, in this case, just cause it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, doesn't make it a freaking duck.

Basically, look at it this way: A car has a soul, so to speak. that soul lies in the body of that car, and it always will. Certain parts can be repaired/replaced, and the car still has that same soul. Just because you rip the parts off of a GLHS and put them into a 'regular' charger, doesnt mean the soul goes to the new car.

GLHS592
01-06-2006, 11:48 AM
Actually, 86 GLHS' are already going for "5 digit values".

Both GLHS's are going for 5 digit values according to NADA. :)

Clay
01-06-2006, 11:51 AM
Both GLHS's are going for 5 digit values according to NADA. :)

true enough!

85shelbycharger
01-06-2006, 04:23 PM
I'm with you guys (Clay and Kevin) on this topic. I feel the same exact way as you do and I'd type out my opinion and points but you covered them very well already.

DC Turismo
01-06-2006, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by S-BOX-turbo
NO. You can do anything that you want with your VIN including swaping the tags to a new body if it is accurate.

Hold up!
http://www.fe.psu.edu/~wjl144/bsflag.gif

An entire shell of a car is not a replaceable part. I do not know how anyone can see it as such. The fact of the matter is this, if it's a numbered car and the question arises about rebodying it or not, the answer should be :censored: NO! It's not even about the simple value of the car itself. It's about preventing someone from down the road being screwed over. It's a respect issue.

Now, if it were some non-numbered car, then the same situation ensues.... For instance, when Pat and I were hit head on in the Turismo, and we feared that the damage was severe as we got out of the car, the thought instantly came to mind that we could transplant everything onto the rust free shell of an '86 Shelby Charger that we have stored away. But, after further speculation, we even decided that swapping the VIN tags to this shell, no matter how much I love my Turismo, would not be just, and instead I would have used the insurance money from them totalling out my Turismo and put it towards bringing the '86 SC to life. Thankfully the Turismo was fine and all, but still, when a car is far too past recognition of being repaired, then accept it and part it out. It's a fact of life in the automobile hobby that everyone faces at one time or another.

bfarroo
01-06-2006, 05:51 PM
So just for arguments sake lets say the above 87 csx gets bead blasted and cleaned up. All external metal is removed then the front frame rails are removed then the unibody supports across the bottom of the floor, then the floor itself then the A pilar then the rockers so now all your left with is the fire wall. then you take the rust free front frame rails and weld them on, then the new A-pilar, then rockers, then B-pilars, rear quarters, doors, fenders, hood, ect... Is is still a 87 CSX since everything was repaired by starting with the original fire wall? It's hard to say where a car becomes just a bunch of parts put together. Should it require that the majority of the car be original say 51%? I don't know. I have worked at a body shop and done close to the above. The insurance company wouldn't pay out the car since it original estimate was below blue book. roughly 27,000 at the time. Well by time we were done there was close to 35,000 into the car. Just how insurance works some times.

DC Turismo
01-06-2006, 06:39 PM
It may not be all original, but it's not a completely different VIN tagged car turned into it. It's the original with new sheet metal. In our case we have a '49 Chevy Business Coupe down our garage that was my grandpap's. The floors are gone in it; however, I would never, even if I were given the opportunity, swap the VIN's from it over to a rust free shell or a re-manufactured shell. Instead, especially with my dad's experience, we're just going to replace the floor pans. Grant it that's not near comparable to that CSX listed above, but either part it out or do what you ^^^ just said and replace all the areas that are subject to too much rust. In my mind though, replacing the frame rails, a-pillars, etc. on that car is way too much work for it. I'd just assume part it out and lay it's #'d soul to rest in the scrap heap muahaha...

And as Kevin stated above, if I were to go about looking for a #'d vehicle, I'd find one that was never touched, had documentation, and was as near to original as can be (# specific items in tact, etc.) That's safest bet these days. Hopefully either I can find an elderly woman who has one stored in her garage and get it off her, or find one that's in the top of a farmer's loft of his barn,.... someday haha :eyebrows:

Omnious
01-06-2006, 07:01 PM
If i had a numbered car and it was beyond repair, I would consider re body, If I planed to keep that car for the rest of it's life time. I would not feel right selling the car as a original, it would have to be 100% right on and mentioned that it was re bodied

86Shelby
01-06-2006, 10:33 PM
Going along the same lines as Benji, could this still be a GLHS after repair or an 'assembled vehicle'? More than 50% of the unibody needs replacing. Everything from the front seats back needs to be replaced, including the rocker panel and associated parts on the passenger side. All I would have left is the front subframe, firewall and a little bit of the floor. A rust free donor car and a ton of work is the only way this one will be repaired.
http://www.geocities.com/glhs420/s4e1.jpg
I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!!!!!:mad:

supercrackerbox
01-06-2006, 10:44 PM
^^ That's just the example I was about to bring up. Personally, I still think we should do it, and document the crap out of it. You have a salvage mark on the title, so from a money standpoint it would never be worth it, but if we fix that much damage, I don't see you selling it anyway.

Now that I'm digging in, I'm really looking forward to fixing the damage on my Shelby Z. Not just for the fact of getting it back, but also to test my skills and hopefully show that I'm good enough to help with your GLHS, my own GLHS, TJ's Mustang, and maybe even Justin's Aerocoupe.

(That last one will be a doozy)

Clay
01-06-2006, 10:49 PM
Going along the same lines as Benji, could this still be a GLHS after repair or an 'assembled vehicle'? More than 50% of the unibody needs replacing. Everything from the front seats back needs to be replaced, including the rocker panel and associated parts on the passenger side. All I would have left is the front subframe, firewall and a little bit of the floor. A rust free donor car and a ton of work is the only way this one will be repaired.
http://www.geocities.com/glhs420/s4e1.jpg
I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!!!!!:mad:

Guess I cant tell from the pictures, but it doesnt look like that much needs replaced to me. with a frame rack, it looks like just a door, and pass. rear quarter. pull the rest straight.

anyway........ it started out as a GLHS. even if you back half the entire car, I would still consider it a GLHS, but dont try to sell it to me as an orignal car either.

Basically, if I were looking for a GLHS, I would take that car with a regular omni back half, before I would take a regular omni with GLHS parts on it.

clay

Clay
01-06-2006, 10:52 PM
The problem is that people are using their numbered cars for winter beaters and not properly storing them.

its their car..... they can do with it what they want. After all, its not a hemi cuda! ;)

Clay
01-06-2006, 10:53 PM
NO. You can do anything that you want with your VIN including swaping the tags to a new body if it is accurate.

What kind of crack are you smoking agin??? :p

Why dont you take the VIN off of a GLHS and put it on a Charger and then tell the police what you did. (no, I wont bail you out!)

Clay
01-06-2006, 10:58 PM
It is legal according to federal law.

This is true, but the crux of the whole situation is you can't just do it "just because you want to".

There are legal requirements, and they are all intended for the reason of repairing a car.

I was going to sell a car with out any interior, dash included. Well, guess where the VIN is attached? The dash.Technically, you are not allowed to even remove the VIN tag from a vehicle with out filling out the proper paper work and having a police officer sign off on it. If the entire dash was replaced as a repair, you are suppose to have legal paperwork filled out when you swap the dash, and sometimes your suppose to do the VIN tag swap in front of a police officer so they know you didn't put it on another car.

Clay
01-06-2006, 11:00 PM
So just for arguments sake lets say the above 87 csx gets bead blasted and cleaned up. All external metal is removed then the front frame rails are removed then the unibody supports across the bottom of the floor, then the floor itself then the A pilar then the rockers so now all your left with is the fire wall. then you take the rust free front frame rails and weld them on, then the new A-pilar, then rockers, then B-pilars, rear quarters, doors, fenders, hood, ect... Is is still a 87 CSX since everything was repaired by starting with the original fire wall? It's hard to say where a car becomes just a bunch of parts put together. Should it require that the majority of the car be original say 51%? I don't know. I have worked at a body shop and done close to the above. The insurance company wouldn't pay out the car since it original estimate was below blue book. roughly 27,000 at the time. Well by time we were done there was close to 35,000 into the car. Just how insurance works some times.

in this case I would say you have a clone/rebody.

bfarroo
01-06-2006, 11:41 PM
But to have a clone wouldn't the original have to also exist? There would only be one car with CSX #288 GFX, dash/dash plaque Centurion wheeles, seats, engine, trans, doors, windshield, ect... I agree that to just remove a vin to represent a car as something it is not is illegal, imoral and just plain wrong. The point I'm trying to make is where does a replacement part become a different car? As others have pointed out there are vehicles out there that you can buy new bodys for. I don't know what the legalities of registering one of these vehicles is maybe a kit or reconstructed title would be correct. There's just no line as to where one starts and the other begins.

Clay
01-06-2006, 11:58 PM
Thats the problem!! :) There just isnt a clear line. Give me examples, and Ill have opinions on them all, but to have just a clear cut line, there isnt one.

as for something "to have a clone wouldn't the original have to also exist?", thats probably just a matter of definition.

To me a clone and rebody can almost be the same thing. Typically a clone is a car made to look like another, ie a regular shadow made to look like a CSX. Where a rebody is where you take a rust out POS and put all the good parts onto a solid body. But your basically, more or less, doing the same thing.

clay

omnivore
01-07-2006, 12:06 AM
Let me pose a hypothetical situation. Say you could buy a brand new replacement shell from Chrysler. We're talking bare shell here, no electronics, interior, doors, fenders, glass, driveline, suspension, vin tag, etc.
You buy one of these and use it to replace the rusted or wrecked shell on a car you have using all of the original parts. What do you end up with


Ayone racing an SRT4 in last years SCCA road race class against the RSX's, Mazda Protege's etc, was given a discount from the factory to promote Dodge's presence on the track, and bodies to replace crashed SRT4's were only $3000 whole. Complete motors were for sale to racers as well, way below list prices. Perfect example of the above mentioned quote. Would this make the SRT4 a fake, since it could be ust an SX 2.0 body?

Clay
01-07-2006, 10:03 AM
Ayone racing an SRT4 in last years SCCA road race class against the RSX's, Mazda Protege's etc, was given a discount from the factory to promote Dodge's presence on the track, and bodies to replace crashed SRT4's were only $3000 whole. Complete motors were for sale to racers as well, way below list prices. Perfect example of the above mentioned quote. Would this make the SRT4 a fake, since it could be ust an SX 2.0 body?

that would make it an "assembled vehicle" since it wasnt sold new by dodge, but put together by a racer. In fact, because it wasnt built by dodge, (or any factory) you would probably have issues even titling that car for road use. ;)

BadAssPerformance
01-07-2006, 10:45 AM
I'm sure one could title a custom car that way somehow. Like when you replace 1/2 of a car with 1/2 of another car, like that sweet white rampage that had the front of a charger grafted on.

that remindes me... I was at the DMV once and a big burley denim ad leather clad harley looking guy had a fist full of bike titles (I saw at least 4) and was titling his new cusom bike he made from them ...

GLHS592
01-07-2006, 10:49 AM
Is that SUPER nice white Rampage, that wins SDAC best of show, really a GLHS from the seats forward? I think he cut it under the seats. Is it a GLHS with a bed or is it a Rampage GLHS?

BadAssPerformance
01-07-2006, 10:53 AM
Is that SUPER nice white Rampage, that wins SDAC best of show, really a GLHS from the seats forward? I think he cut it under the seats. Is it a GLHS with a bed or is it a Rampage GLHS?

If you splice them down the middle like that do you get to pick which VIN? lol... Although most of the vehicle is from that charger, you'd almost have to use the rampage VIN cuz it has a bed on it...

Richard Paul
01-07-2006, 01:30 PM
So cut the front core support off the car and replace the rear clip. That is putting a rear clip on the car. No need here to restamp numbers.
Most British cars you can also but new bodies as service parts, they retain the original VIN. The state may look differently at replacing a VIN tag from a car to a new replacement shell vs taking the VIN off the used replacement shell and putting a different VIN on that shell.

Do not lie to someone about what you did however. I would still consider it to be an 86 GLHS, just like an old E type with a new body or an antique aircraft that is rebuilt from almost nothing.

Otherwise, part that thing out. It will never have any great value if you spend a year fixing the bad case of tinworm. You could buy another running CSX for what the parts on that car are worth and the wire you will have to buy for your welder to fix it. And, of course, you should also be honest about all the rust repair too. Remember, it is called "cancer" for a reason. These are not Hemi cars. Gary D has a nice clean drivetrainless CSX he was trying to sell, a far better way to go than the year or two of welding and fabricating.

As far as value, I don't think I would be waiting for these cars do see the values of older muscle cars. The old muscle cars even the basic cars have been valuable for years and were popular. A 6 cylinder Mustang was a popular car and had value, most TBi Shadows or Omnis have no value other than transportation to few other than us TD fans.

jre97
01-07-2006, 03:52 PM
I'm sure one could title a custom car that way somehow. Like when you replace 1/2 of a car with 1/2 of another car, like that sweet white rampage that had the front of a charger grafted on.

that remindes me... I was at the DMV once and a big burley denim ad leather clad harley looking guy had a fist full of bike titles (I saw at least 4) and was titling his new cusom bike he made from them ...
If you do this to a damaged car and go to the dmv and fill out the proper paperwork, some states require recertification by a state inspector. You get a reconstructed vehicle title. I have been through this with two vehicles, neither were worth anything major, one was a 90 ford taurus that I wrecked, I was a college student and didn't have money to buy another reliable car, I found another taurus that had some major side impact damage cut the core support, ds inner fender, ds unibody structure, and strut tower off and welded them onto my car. Since these parts were from a wagon and mine was a sedan iss my car now a wagon? no! The car is still around today and this was done in 1998. i would still be driving it if not for some tranny issues. Now my title says reconstructed vehicle since the insurance figured it as a total loss. Would my 69 chevelle be considered a 71 cutlass since i cut the cowl vents, parts of the windshield frame, and a small section of the firewall from a 71 cutlass to repair some major rust damage?Now as far as taking several titles to the dmv to get one you have to apply for a combination vehicle title or an assembled vehicle title at least in WV. I am sure the laws very form state to state. So if the panels were cut from a tbi car and welded on the above csx it would be 100% legal and would be considered a restoration by most in my opinion. Of course the value would go down and would not be as desireable as an all original unrestored car. I am sure you don't have to do anything special with the title when doing a restoration. Take lots of photo's of the repairs, save reciepts, and document the work done. This will help the car retain most of it's value. "Don't crush em restore em" is the line you hear at the end of every episode of american muscle car.

johnl
01-07-2006, 06:27 PM
Hey!

It is ALL about DISCLOSURE.

If there is full disclosure, then there is nothing wrong with a "rebody" and the buyer can pay what they want to pay, with their eyes open.

If there is FRAUD, then there is is fraud.

Nuff said.

Whorse
01-07-2006, 08:03 PM
Hey!

It is ALL about DISCLOSURE.

If there is full disclosure, then there is nothing wrong with a "rebody" and the buyer can pay what they want to pay, with their eyes open.

If there is FRAUD, then there is is fraud.

Nuff said.

I think that pretty much
says it all. If you're lying to make a profit or keep some extra prestige, it's not legit. If you do it all legally, it can be whatever you want it to be.

Tony Hanna
01-07-2006, 08:26 PM
Thats the problem!! :) There just isnt a clear line. Give me examples, and Ill have opinions on them all, but to have just a clear cut line, there isnt one.

Thank you! :thumb:
That's exactly the point I've been trying to make. Being that there is no clear cut line, it all becomes a matter of opinion and as such no view is "right" or "wrong". This has become like trying to argue the existance of God to an athiest or that gun control doesn't work to a liberal.
I guess all that I have left to say is do what you believe is right and try to stay within the law while doing it. Above all, be honest in disclosing any major work done when selling the car. I'm done.
Take Care,

spoolinhard
02-02-2006, 01:25 PM
This thread brings to mind a pretty nice Burgandy GLHS that was on ebay. He didnt mention that the car had been rear clipped until someone asked why it was a GLHS without a sunroof. HE then said that the previous owner must have done it, but if you went on his "Myturbododge" page about the car, he said that he did it!

If that isnt misrepresenting a car I dont know what is. I believe he is on these boards too.

butchsuppe
02-06-2006, 11:30 PM
I,d chop out the floor build a chassis drop in a crate HEMI Dana rearend cherry the body + run 9s with it

WVRampage
02-08-2006, 12:56 AM
Me and my dad changed the cab on his truck,the cab was badly damaged,we got a cab from another truck swaped every thing over including the dash and vin number, same old truck just a different cab. I know this isnt the same as what you are talking its more like the jeep cj and the new tub. Read all the local state and fedreal laws and do what you interpet is right and keep the car as your own and if you do ever sell it be honest with who ever ends up with the car dont lie about it.

racer-xerols
03-05-2006, 09:59 AM
I think the main difference here is between putting a couple cosmetic pieces on a base car and trying to pass it off as a numbered car, and taking a legit number car that's beyond saving and rebuilding it as accurately as possible to preserve the number car. I agree, if you are going to "rebody", you should take each and every nut, screw, fastener, wire and bolt and swap it into the replacement unibody...and document it. Slapping some GFX and a CS dash plaque on a Duster to call it a CSX? Nope. Taking a rusted out GLHS and rebuiding every piece inside a rust free (yeah, right) Omni shell? OK, but document it as a ground up rebuild. Then we get into the HemiCuda convertible "restoration around a doorhandle" debate...but in the beginning, these cars were all just a pile of pieces and parts, right? The whole is (or should be, eBay be damned) greater than the sum of the parts.