Super50 Hybrid has arrived!

[contraption22]

Well my Super50 Hybrid arrived today. Soon the comparison of the S50 vs. the regular 50 will comence.

Original Turbo: Turbonetics T04E 50-trim compressor in Turbonetics/Chrysler
T3 compressor housing w/ stage II turbine wheel in .63 A/R turbine housing.

Second Turbo: Turbonetics TO4E 50-trim compressor in native T04E compressor housing w/stage II turbine wheel in .63 A/R turbine housing.

Third Turbo: Turbonetics T04E SUPER 50-trim compressor in native T04E compressor housing w/ stage II turbine wheel in .63 A/R turbine housing.


I certainly cannot say the regular 50 performed poorly. Performance was way better than the "Half-Assed Hybrid" it replaced. In fact compared to the old turbo, ET's were down, trap speeds were up despite higher 60 ft times due to newfound wheelspin!

I expect the S50 to perform even better, as it should have even more low-shaft-speed airflow and higher efficiency at increased boost levels.

[turbovanman²]

Can't wait for the results. Are you dynoing it or just 1/4 mile. Did you dyno the old turbo's?

[contraption22]

Nah I haven't dyno'd anything yet. I will dyno this new setup, but only to make sure I have adequate fuel supply. I don't have much faith in racing dynos, too much room for error from day to day. I feel that they are great tuning tools, but not accurate enough for our purposes.

[cordes]

Sweet, I can't wait to hear how it fairs. Thanks again for spearheading the project.

[Frank]

Awesome dude!


Frank

[TurboMinivan]

Original Turbo: Turbonetics T04E 50-trim compressor in Turbonetics/Chrysler
T3 compressor housing w/ stage II turbine wheel in .63 A/R turbine housing.

Second Turbo: Turbonetics TO4E 50-trim compressor in native T04E compressor housing w/stage II turbine wheel in .63 A/R turbine housing.

Going from turbo #1 to turbo #2, did you simply replace the compressor housing? Or did you have an entirely new turbo built from scratch?

-Dempsey

[BadFastGTC]

I certainly cannot say the regular 50 performed poorly. Performance was way better than the "Half-Assed Hybrid" it replaced. In fact compared to the old turbo, ET's were down, trap speeds were up despite higher 60 ft times due to newfound wheelspin!

I expect the S50 to perform even better, as it should have even more low-shaft-speed airflow and higher efficiency at increased boost levels.

Let me know if you need any help getting Contraption back in action Buddy. I'll bring my bigger slicks along and leave them there for you to use. I'm certainly not going to need them any time soon!

Have you looked into the fuel pump issue yet? I don't think the other end of the car has any issues if you get my meaning.:D

[Directconnection]

Nah I haven't dyno'd anything yet. I will dyno this new setup, but only to make sure I have adequate fuel supply. I don't have much faith in racing dynos, too much room for error from day to day. I feel that they are great tuning tools, but not accurate enough for our purposes.

I partially agree with you. On chasis dynos... I wonder how much the operators really understand what they are doing. But where I work, the engine dyno they use (superflow) has an incredible repeatability. They have a contract with a racing orginization (ACT) and supply New England and Canadian racers with these tamper-proof 2-barrell 350 crate motors that we re-work for them to ensure they last an enitre race season. They are called the ZZ4 GM motor. They do probably 100's of these and they all dyno from 342 to 348hp every time.

BTW...any one ever heard of Penn racing oil? They swear by it alon with alot of the serious racers. It is a green oil that is basically what the old Kendal oil used to be. They once pulled apart an 800+hp drag motor with 250+ passes on it and the bearings showed absolutely no signs of wear and not one scratch. $3 a qt this will be my next oil.

[contraption22]

Going from turbo #1 to turbo #2, did you simply replace the compressor housing? Or did you have an entirely new turbo built from scratch?

-Dempsey

To do that properly, what you would need to do is purchase the compressor housing and backing plate, and replace them. This would require you to have that turbo re-balanced, because you would have to remove the compressor wheel to get the backing plate off. That's not cost effective, as you are now at about 75% of the cost of a new turbo. The better route was to sell the original turbo, and then put that money towards the new turbo.

[contraption22]

Let me know if you need any help getting Contraption back in action Buddy. I'll bring my bigger slicks along and leave them there for you to use. I'm certainly not going to need them any time soon!

Have you looked into the fuel pump issue yet? I don't think the other end of the car has any issues if you get my meaning.:D


Thanks bud! I have a few more things that need to be ready before I can start re-assembly. But if you are off on a Tuesday and wanna swing on down feel free!

I haven't looked into the fuel pump issue yet. I do definitely want to flow test it to make sure it's putting out enough. If not, I'm not sure wether to find a tank for an injected car and put in a walbro 255, or to sump the tank and run an inline pump from Barry Grant or Aeromotive.

[turbovanman²]

BTW...any one ever heard of Penn racing oil? They swear by it alon with alot of the serious racers. It is a green oil that is basically what the old Kendal oil used to be. They once pulled apart an 800+hp drag motor with 250+ passes on it and the bearings showed absolutely no signs of wear and not one scratch. $3 a qt this will be my next oil.

No but sounds good. My friend has a 7 sec drag car, big block Mopar, ran Castrol and had to replace his bearings every 2-3 rounds. Switched to Lucas and they would be fine for the whole season.

[contraption22]

I partially agree with you. On chasis dynos... I wonder how much the operators really understand what they are doing. But where I work, the engine dyno they use (superflow) has an incredible repeatability. They have a contract with a racing orginization (ACT) and supply New England and Canadian racers with these tamper-proof 2-barrell 350 crate motors that we re-work for them to ensure they last an enitre race season. They are called the ZZ4 GM motor. They do probably 100's of these and they all dyno from 342 to 348hp every time.




There is is a world of difference between a chassis dyno and an engine dyno as far as repeatablilty. I think an engine dyno would allow for much closer to true scientific method testing, as more of the variables can be controlled, such as intake air temp, humidity, coolant temp, etc.

[Directconnection]

There is is a world of difference between a chassis dyno and an engine dyno as far as repeatablilty. I think an engine dyno would allow for much closer to true scientific method testing, as more of the variables can be controlled, such as intake air temp, humidity, coolant temp, etc.

I've only been to one chasis dyno (Wang's in which you were there as well) a few times. I never really looked into Mr. Wang's software and anaylzed the info he had to put in, but I would **assume** most of those variables were in there for inputing as well. Maybe the problem arises when the operators don't know what to enter, so they just let it default?

But like you said, the engine dyno my boss owns...I was looking at the screen during the pulls and the screen is full of tables. probably about 20 tables of info on the main screen. He also waits until oil temps are consistant as well as many other things and then loads the engine for about 5-10 seconds at WOT before the engine accelerates through the rpm band.

[turbovanman²]

I've only been to one chasis dyno (Wang's in which you were there as well) a few times. I never really looked into Mr. Wang's software and anaylzed the info he had to put in, but I would **assume** most of those variables were in there for inputing as well. Maybe the problem arises when the operators don't know what to enter, so they just let it default?

But like you said, the engine dyno my boss owns...I was looking at the screen during the pulls and the screen is full of tables. probably about 20 tables of info on the main screen. He also waits until oil temps are consistant as well as many other things and then loads the engine for about 5-10 seconds at WOT before the engine accelerates through the rpm band.

I would love to be around an engine dyno, gives me goose bumps thinking of it, :thumb:

[contraption22]

I've only been to one chasis dyno (Wang's in which you were there as well) a few times.




Haha I remember Wang's that day. We were going back and forth between asphyxiating ourselves in the shop as the dyno was running, or freezing to death outside. I even remember taking a few minutes to enjoy the heat in Cliff's T3 K-wagon to warm up in the fresh air! haha.

["Top Fuel" Bender]

Thanks bud! I have a few more things that need to be ready before I can start re-assembly. But if you are off on a Tuesday and wanna swing on down feel free!

I haven't looked into the fuel pump issue yet. I do definitely want to flow test it to make sure it's putting out enough. If not, I'm not sure wether to find a tank for an injected car and put in a walbro 255, or to sump the tank and run an inline pump from Barry Grant or Aeromotive.


Didn't I give you that one tank?
If not I still have a few more laying around here
Glad to see your all exicted about getting the GLMF rippin again
If you ned help on a weekend I'm there man

Just one question
Why do yo uhave a pic of a Pontaic Vibe with Caliber written on it
or was that the joke of it all?

[contraption22]

Didn't I give you that one tank?
If not I still have a few more laying around here
Glad to see your all exicted about getting the GLMF rippin again
If you ned help on a weekend I'm there man

Just one question
Why do yo uhave a pic of a Pontaic Vibe with Caliber written on it
or was that the joke of it all?


Nah I haven't gotten a tank from you yet. I really should. I just sent you a PM in fact! Congrats, Dad!

And yes, the Vibe thing is a joke. From 50 feet I cannot tell the difference between a Caliber and a Vibe.

[Directconnection]

Haha I remember Wang's that day. We were going back and forth between asphyxiating ourselves in the shop as the dyno was running, or freezing to death outside. I even remember taking a few minutes to enjoy the heat in Cliff's T3 K-wagon to warm up in the fresh air! haha.


Yeah, I have most of it on tape. I remember being smoked out on the 1st few pulls Brian's car made on the big injectors, and all that torque his car made. Sounded like 500+whp but made 500wtrq.

I warmed up inside someone's red '88 Shelby Z from PA I think.. can't remember who that was. I ended up missing Jon's tranny explosion.

[JuXsA]

any updates?

[contraption22]

The turbo is still sitting in a box awaiting some gaskets and stuff before i can re-assemble.

[Speedeuphoria]

why not just get the in line walbro 255 it has a higher cut off than the in tank version and can flow 600hp@ lower fuel pressure
GSL392 is the # and there on ebay

[JuXsA]

updates?

[contraption22]

updates?

Shortblock is in the car. It should be fired up next weekend.

[JuXsA]

sweet. I couldn't wait anymore so I just ended up buying a to4e 50trim with a stg2 wheel....

[contraption22]

sweet. I couldn't wait anymore so I just ended up buying a to4e 50trim with a stg2 wheel....


You can't go wrong with that. The 50 trim worked great for me.

[firebaron90]

Hey mike, just a FYI, Dave tells me that a local speed shop/ garage has opened up a dyno. It is in collingdale. I have to see this to believe it, but that's the news.

Joe

[Clay]

Sweet! Ive been waiting on the purchase of my hybrid pending the results of your tests Mike!!

Very anxious to find out the results!!!

[Clay]

Hey Mikey, any word on this??

thanks!

[contraption22]

Here's the word. The 50trim was good. The Super50 is AWESOME! Part throttle, at under 3000, and I'm building boost, and that's with direct manifold pressure to the wastegate (max boost 10psi).

The verdict is... if you are debating 50trim vs Super50, GET THE SUPER 50!!!

[BadAssPerformance]

Here's the word. The 50trim was good. The Super50 is AWESOME! Part throttle, at under 3000, and I'm building boost, and that's with direct manifold pressure to the wastegate (max boost 10psi).

The verdict is... if you are debating 50trim vs Super50, GET THE SUPER 50!!!

Cool! for comparisson what rpm was the 50 getting up at?

[Clay]

also, any dyno charts for comparrison??

[contraption22]

The Super 50 would start to build boost at about 3400 all other factors the same. Unfortunately I have no dyno numbers. Realistically, a chassis dyno test would not be accurate enough for any real results in this case anyway.

I wouldnt expect to see any major changes in peak power, except at 25-30psi of boost, where the efficiency of the 50 trim would start to drop off, but the S50 would have more left in it.

[turbovanman²]

Thanks Mike, :thumb:

Now I wonder how that wheel would work on a 16 valve engine?

[MoparN75]

Mike,
What head are you running? I've got a 2.5 with a mildly ported swirl head...standard sized valves, I'm wondering if I've got enough flow for that turbo.

[contraption22]

You've got plenty of flow for the turbo. I'm running a 2.2... granted, i have one of Steve Menegon's magic-maker heads on there, but a 2.5 can spool a pretty big turbo.


Simon... my brother is using a Super50 on his 2.4 16v Neon. In a full-weight car he ran 11.95@119 on his first pass with under 20psi.

[turbovanman²]

Simon... my brother is using a Super50 on his 2.4 16v Neon. In a full-weight car he ran 11.95@119 on his first pass with under 20psi.


Thats good to know, thanks! :D

[cordes]

Thanks for the comparison. I know that many have been wondering for a long while about the difference between the two.

[Khajjathefang]

how would the super 50 do in a street driven 2.2 5 speed daytona? im thinking about changing up when i get back from iraq for good

[Frank]

how would the super 50 do in a street driven 2.2 5 speed daytona? im thinking about changing up when i get back from iraq for good

I think it would go real good if you have a good head in there.


Frank

[Chris Faulk]

I would love to be around an engine dyno, gives me goose bumps thinking of it, :thumb:

My family has always been into drag racing, and a close personal friend of ours builds national record-holding race engines. Larry Meaux...Meaux's Racing Heads.

Anyway we used to hear him fire up the dyno from a few miles away...we'd run over and watch the engine dyno pulls.

He had a contract with the Jeg's Pro Stock car at one time...now THAT'S a site to see on an engine dyno.

His results were repeatable to within 2hp.

[omnivore]

I wish I understood turbos, housings, wheels and maps more. It's all greek to me. Thank God we have vendors to advise us as t what turbos to buy. I neeed it all laid out in plain english, like what kind of hp it will produce at 20 psi, how soon (rpm) we can expect to reach max boost, and how soon we can expect it to begin to spool....etc.

[TurboBuggy]

I wouldnt go to a vendor to figure out the best turbo for my application, these message boards are a lot better for that. Just search around for stuff that you dont know and read until you understand it.

[Chris Faulk]

I wouldnt go to a vendor to figure out the best turbo for my application, these message boards are a lot better for that. Just search around for stuff that you dont know and read until you understand it.

Using the experience of guys on this board would be your best bet. :thumb:


I wish I understood turbos, housings, wheels and maps more. It's all greek to me. Thank God we have vendors to advise us as t what turbos to buy. I neeed it all laid out in plain english, like what kind of hp it will produce at 20 psi, how soon (rpm) we can expect to reach max boost, and how soon we can expect it to begin to spool....etc.

HP produced, RPM vs. max boost, and spool time can all be affected by tune and setup. Those numbers are going to be nearly impossible to just lay out there for you...that's the real problem with turbo selection. You could choose a turbo based on previous experience, but that certainly won't gaurantee that it'll respond the same in your car.

[MoparN75]

You've got plenty of flow for the turbo. I'm running a 2.2... granted, i have one of Steve Menegon's magic-maker heads on there, but a 2.5 can spool a pretty big turbo.


I'd like to get a good flowing head, this one is mildly ported with back-cut standard sized valves...not sure how well it flows. Did ~223 whp on the dyno last year with this set-up. I considering up-grading to a larger turbo but don't want to ruin the drivablity...

[turbovanman²]

Yep, vendors do know alot but asking or searching here will get you a better idea. I have learned alot over the years so I am a bit more educated than when I bought mine.

Great answer Chris, every car/van will react differently unless you have the exact same setup in the vehicles.

[Chris Faulk]

Great answer Chris, every car/van will react differently unless you have the exact same setup in the vehicles.

Thanks Simon, but ya know even (2) exact setups will react/respond differently. This is why custom cals even need tweaking. Each car truly is an individual.

How's the car running Mike? :thumb:

[contraption22]

Thanks Simon, but ya know even (2) exact setups will react/respond differently. This is why custom cals even need tweaking. Each car truly is an individual.

How's the car running Mike? :thumb:

The car is running VERY well. Still can't believe i have only 9-10psi running to it. My next day off, I'm gonna change the oil again, put some good gas in it, and G-valve it.

[JuXsA]

If I was going to do it all over again, I think I would have gotten a super 50 with a stage1 .63ar. It wouldn't have the top end that the stage2 has but it would spool a good bit quicker and it would likely be a much better option for a mostly street car.

BTY I have a 50 trim with a stage2 .63ar

[contraption22]

If I was going to do it all over again, I think I would have gotten a super 50 with a stage1 .63ar. It wouldn't have the top end that the stage2 has but it would spool a good bit quicker and it would likely be a much better option for a mostly street car.

BTY I have a 50 trim with a stage2 .63ar


I would definitely go with the S50, but i can't see sticking with the S1 turbine.

[JuXsA]

reason to stick with the S1 turbine is for faster spool up. Might hurt up high but I would imagine it would build boost at a much lower RPM.

[contraption22]

With the S50 wheel, you won't need the smaller turbine for faster spoolup. The S50 has a lower boost threshold:)

[JuXsA]

well I feel Like I have been screwed. TU had said tha the 50 trim would be a better wheel for a mild ported head then the S50.

Between the S50 and the 50, how much faster does the S50 build boost?

Thanks

[contraption22]

It spools about as fast as my brother's Daytona Shelby, and it had a stock turbo on it.

[JuXsA]

damn.... I am wondering if I screwed up in my turbo purchase. For the past week I have been thinking I should have gone with a Super 60 turbo. Streetablity has always been an issue with me and it sounds like with the 50 trim is not a very good wheel for a mostly street car. You were saying that with the 50 trim you wouldn't build boost untill 3400rpms and with the S50 its more like a stock turbo?

I have a 2.2 turbo shadow with a garret. I start building boost around 2k rpms. Is this where you starting to build boost?

[TurboBuggy]

im thinking about going with the S50 and stage3 wheel in a .48 housing, someone else did that and said it spooled awesome

[contraption22]

I think you'd be choking yourself with the small housing. If you really want to stick with the small housing for spoolup issues, then you might as well stick with a smaller compressor too, because the small turbine will choking you.

[Mario]

Everyone loves the HAH (Half Assed Hybrid), Mike. You coined a good term, btw. :)

[TurboBuggy]

I think you'd be choking yourself with the small housing. If you really want to stick with the small housing for spoolup issues, then you might as well stick with a smaller compressor too, because the small turbine will choking you.

I run a 2.2L, im waiting on this thread http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2096 to make my decision

[JuXsA]

I think I am just going to sell my hybrid and go with a Super 60. Its a tried and tru turbo and will spool like a stocker and makes awesome power. My goal is between 275-300whp, and I bet I could do that on pump gas since I have an Air to Water IC.... No need to worry about heat

[JuXsA]

Just wanted to post an update. Chris W. drove through Knoxville today and we had lunch. He was very cool and a stand up guy. We worked it out and he has made one very happy customer. I also got my 3in SV.... that thing is FREAKING sweet. If your on the fence about getting one... DO IT. The pictures of it online don't do it justice, it is much better looking in person.

[turbovanman²]

Just wanted to post an update. Chris W. drove through Knoxville today and we had lunch. He was very cool and a stand up guy. We worked it out and he has made one very happy customer. I also got my 3in SV.... that thing is FREAKING sweet. If your on the fence about getting one... DO IT. The pictures of it online don't do it justice, it is much better looking in person.

So what turbo did you get, sheesh, :mad:

[JuXsA]

I just got a super 60 turbo. Ozspeed had one on his 16v conversion and he said that he had plenty of topend and he could spool the thing instantly. Even on his 8v setup he said it spooled damn near stock. I pretty much figure that since my car is a DD and so will spend its time on the street a super 60 is the best turbo for me. I should have gone that way from the start because I could start putting the motor in my car but now I have to wait to get a super 60 shipped to me.

I know I will be much happier with this setup. I will have plenty of topend and should have way more on the low end then with the Hybrid.

[mcglsr2]

I just got a super 60 turbo. Ozspeed had one on his 16v conversion and he said that he had plenty of topend and he could spool the thing instantly. Even on his 8v setup he said it spooled damn near stock. I pretty much figure that since my car is a DD and so will spend its time on the street a super 60 is the best turbo for me. I should have gone that way from the start because I could start putting the motor in my car but now I have to wait to get a super 60 shipped to me.

I know I will be much happier with this setup. I will have plenty of topend and should have way more on the low end then with the Hybrid.


so how has that S60 worked out for you on the 2.2L shadow?

[JuXsA]

I am putting it on a 2.5 with a stg 1 fm head. Chris said he will either be getting it on Friday or it will be shipped to him on firday. He will then stick a chrysler housing on it and maybe do a few other tweaks to it and then ship it. I am hoping to have it by the end of the month.

I just can't wait to start ripping apart the engine bay cleaning the hell out of it and fixing everything. Its going to be a hell of a project. I figure its going to take me a month from when I pull the motor till I am finished putting the new motor in. I am going to really take my time with this since its also my DD. I am going to rebuild the section othe harness that I fixed 2 years ago but I am going to solder instead of using crimps. I am going to clean the engine bay and repaint areas that need it. Inspect every little thing and replace everything that looks like it will need to be replaced. I am going to replace the axel boots before they start to crack out. They already have superficial crack so they have not been contaminated yet so I am not worried about replacing the whole axel. Since I am installing an Air to Water IC I am also going to have to wire up a water pump. Gotta figure out how I am going to have the wiring for that setup and also I am going to have the water hoses setup.

Its going to be freaking sweet

[John B]

Did this 50 trim vs S50 trim shootout ever take place?:confused:

[contraption22]

Yes and no. Practicality of me swapping out turbos the same day for back to back testing was't there. However, they did produce very close trap speeds at the same boost. The big difference, the boost comes on faster with the S50 over the 50.

[Aries_Turbo]

hey Mike, how bad was the HAH? just curious. I can get one for really cheap.

2.5L 5-speed.

Brian

[contraption22]

hey Mike, how bad was the HAH? just curious. I can get one for really cheap.

2.5L 5-speed.

Brian

In a word... crappy. Spooled like arse. I've also learned from several credible sources that the combination of an oversized wheel in a little housing generates quite a bit of extra heat and significant loses efficiency, which makes sense to me. Basically throwing away half the benefit of the big compressor wheel. Justin Cronk has one on his '90 Daytona. Its miserable to drive and has yet to match his best ET with a stock TII turbo (high 12's). The trap speed is there, but the lag is so bad its impossible to launch.
The turbo is a compromise for easy packaging as it is an apple-for-apple replacement for a TII Garrett... but its not worth it. I'd say either use a S60 turbo, or if you need something bigger, go with a true hybrid.

[Aries_Turbo]

thanks.

Brian