Fixing the Neon suspension

[BlueBaron]

Anyone here change control arm bushings? I've found a better way.

http://thebluebaron.homestead.com/SubFrame.html

[BadAssPerformance]

Got any pics of the 'before' LCA?

[BlueBaron]

http://images.1aauto.com/SLF/1ASLF00005.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~oh5srt4/pics/rubbing.jpg

The factory design is a bolt straight up through a sleeve suspended in a rubber bushing, with the control arm attached to the outside of the bushing. As the arm pivots up and down at the hub end, the rubber bushing is just torqued, pinched and twisted. So that within 2 years of driving, it needs to be replaced.

I bought a single stock bushing from the dealer with the idea of pouring my own urethane bushings in the old broken bushings that were on my car. I needed to get out the service manual for my Dad to understand how they worked. Cause it's no where near a normal, in my mind.

[Johnny]

Prothane does make a polyurethane replacement for the NEON. But I like your's/Dad's idea!

Johnny

[BadAssPerformance]

The factory design is a bolt straight up through a sleeve suspended in a rubber bushing, with the control arm attached to the outside of the bushing. As the arm pivots up and down at the hub end, the rubber bushing is just torqued, pinched and twisted. So that within 2 years of driving, it needs to be replaced.

I bought a single stock bushing from the dealer with the idea of pouring my own urethane bushings in the old broken bushings that were on my car. I needed to get out the service manual for my Dad to understand how they worked. Cause it's no where near a normal, in my mind.

Actually that is sort of a 'normal' architecture in the past 15 years... kind of like the stub strut on all the '88 and older k-based-cars, thats the 'ride' bushing designed to soften the road impacts. Hard to believe that it only lasts 2 years?

[contraption22]

Mine were a little torn up when I replaced them with poly on my SRT-4 at about 30k miles.

[Johnny]

Even the new Caliber has something like that. I asked the suspension guy from Chrysler
at SDAC about it, he thought highly of it. I ask why, I can't remember anything about
his answer that made good sense to me.

Johnny

[BlueBaron]

Did he say something like,
"Of course it's a good idea, we sell the new bushings for $50 a pop!"

btw Johnny, those are self lubricating bushings I made for it. :D

[BadAssPerformance]

Even the new Caliber has something like that. I asked the suspension guy from Chrysler
at SDAC about it, he thought highly of it. I ask why, I can't remember anything about
his answer that made good sense to me.

Johnny

If it was Erich Heuchele you talked to, he knows his stuff. And I am sure the overall performance (both ride and handling) it is a good design. Now that's the engineering side of it. When Purchasing gets involved and globally sources it to the lowest bidder... well, thats another issue.

[black86glhs]

Gm had the same issues with that style bushing. The J-bodies were the worst. I don't blame you for getting rid of them. They look good so far!

[inmyshadow]

If the vertical bushing design is so bad, why don't 1st gen neons have the same problems?

I replaced my vertical bushings on my 1st gen neon. Those bushings lasted over 132K. I do know the 2gen neons have a problem. The failure probably has more to do with the material used then the design.

[BlueBaron]

For what it's worth, I put the energy suspension poly bushings in last. I've read since, that I should have gone with the prothane brand.

The 'energy' ones didn't break like a factory one, but the inner part simply "oozes" out as the arm moves. Most people who ride in my car right now, get white knuckles as it sounds like an entire corner of the car is about to fall right off with all the clunks and noises.

[contraption22]

I wnder how those changes you made would help with wheelhop. Looks like it would reduce horizontal deflection of the control arm.

[shadow88]

I want to see how the k-frame was modded. I know the bushings aren't nearly as good as the gen 1's, but 2 years sounds like a shorter than average life span. How many kms?

Is this job finished, or still in the fab stage? I want to see some "after" pics. Due to the complexity, I doubt you'll be able to convince anyone to do what you did, but great thinking. :clap:

[Aries_Turbo]

Looks great Ean.


If the vertical bushing design is so bad, why don't 1st gen neons have the same problems?

yeah thats wierd, my wifes neon has 162k on it and hers are still in decent shape. ive replace every tie rod end, ball joint and wheel bearing at 150k+ but the LCA's still look good. the strut mounts are still in good shape even. i had a spring break (just ~5" off the end of one) and when i pulled the strut mounts apart, i regreased them and put them back together. 162k on it and it feels like it has 40k on it. :)

Brian

[BlueBaron]

All info on that webpage I posted is up to date. The stainless plate was added last. My Dad is trying to source a pair of bolts right now, so he can measure where the mount location will be.

The original bolts went through the bushings and into the car. We're putting shorter bolts through the top of the frame and into the car. Then the arm will mount just under the bolt head. Sounds easy enough. We'll see how reality likes it.

I'll keep that webpage up to date as things go, and post here when I do.

[Johnny]

If you need some polyurethane swaybar bushings for the neon k-frame, I have some here if you have a 24mm bar.

Johnny

[BlueBaron]

Pics updated. Project is almost complete.
http://thebluebaron.homestead.com/SubFrame.html

[Aries_Turbo]

nice!!

[black86glhs]

Ean, Looks good.:thumb:
Only thing I would do is add a small gusset to the back plate of the new mounting area. See the blue triangle in the picture.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I bet the 1st gens don't have as much of a problem because they're tons lighter than the 2nd gens as well. There's this solution as well but if you live where they use salt I wouldn't go this route http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f146/lca-group-buy-interest-thread-477508/

+1 to Bryan's suggestion to the gusseting. Also the car is going to sit lower by probably 1/4" or maybe more now that more weight is allowed to be placed on the spring just like going from a stub strut to a dual pivot kmember on our TD's. Other than that it looks great

[BlueBaron]

Gussets added. Thanks for the tip guys.

http://thebluebaron.homestead.com/SubFrame.html

[BlueBaron]

Well it so happened I had access to a nice big shop today. So my Dad and I went there with the new suspension.
I think we spent 8 hours total. (including an oil change)

I didn't want to drop the steering rack, so we struggled to get the bolts out while the frame was still attached.
There was an issue getting one of the custom arms in, but brute force showed the way. The handling is a little weird, so it definitely needs an alignment. But just the quiet ride home was worth the effort so far.

[black86glhs]

Definitely looks good. :thumb: Wonder how far out and how hard it will be to align it?

[BlueBaron]

Well the alignment place asked what I had done. They knew that the Frame and arms were pretty fresh looking, as they have shiny paint, and not a coat of road salt like the rest of the undercarrige. :(
I explained what was done, and they didn't really say much.

I didn't ask how it went, but they were able to do the job. The car feels fine now, and with a straight steering wheel.
And did I mention how quiet it is? lol

[Aries_Turbo]

the potential danger would be not being able to get the caster correct and even.

did you have a printout of the readings? is the caster the same?

[Aries_Turbo]

the potential danger would be not being able to get the caster correct and even.

did you have a printout of the readings? is the caster the same?

[neongary]

If the vertical bushing design is so bad, why don't 1st gen neons have the same problems?

I replaced my vertical bushings on my 1st gen neon. Those bushings lasted over 132K. I do know the 2gen neons have a problem. The failure probably has more to do with the material used then the design.

+1. I changed my bushing at the 5 year point and used Energy Suspension. Never had any troubles with the original, just wanted to tighten up the handling a bit.

[BlueBaron]

The new pivot's center line is located in the same place the old one's center line was. It might move a little bit different, but not enough to stand out.

As for the original design being fine in the 1st Gen, I don't know.
All I know, is I had to change the bushings every 2 years.
For all I know, this design will wear something out in the same time.

[turbovanman]

Any updates?

[dodgeshadowchik]

The new pivot's center line is located in the same place the old one's center line was. It might move a little bit different, but not enough to stand out.

As for the original design being fine in the 1st Gen, I don't know.
All I know, is I had to change the bushings every 2 years.
For all I know, this design will wear something out in the same time.

LCA bushings on the first gen fail just as much. I think I've only seen one 1g where those bushings were not pushed out. Slowneon had to do them twice on the beater '95 four door in 5 or so years. He also went with the Prothane kit for the black 95 coupe he has.

Interesting project you have going on there!

[Sgt Craig]

Only problem I can see with your set up is that bolt that holds the the original bushing in also is a bolt for the K-frame to chassis.

Out of everything Ive done with the 1g neons Ive had I never had one with bad control arm bushings.

[shackwrrr]

This is my thought on a fix for this.
29247

[Sgt Craig]

This is my thought on a fix for this.
29247


I like that but i think the 60yr women who's PT I did yesterday would like the ride much.

[shackwrrr]

I like that but i think the 60yr women who's PT I did yesterday would like the ride much.

Well yeah, if its a customer, do it with the stock stuff. It wears out in 2 years, a manufacturer defect that makes mechanics money. Unless its your moms car or something I wouldn't bother.