PDA

View Full Version : so what Cummins Turbo Diesel so much better than other diesels???



turbo600
10-10-2008, 08:20 PM
so after months of thinking real hard, I think ive decided to go with a Cummins Turbo Diesel pick up...4x4....now Ive always heard the Cummins diesels are the best of the bunch, but how stong are these trucks compared to the rest, I know all about Ford and Chevy trucks but I know little about how well Dodge trucks are, like how are the auto transmittions in the Dodges, and the axles, and the motor itself, how well do they handle power, Im looking to find a nice stock real clean 02ish Cummins, and also what would be the best year to look for, I know little about any changes dodge made through the years and what year would be the best to buy if I were looking to make a low 13 second daily driven truck , im thinking 3 inch suspension lift with 33" tires at most, nothing crazy then all bolt on's after that, I'l do all the work myself,plus I get all the parts at cost so Im really looking to make this truck fit my needs ya know, any info will help me make my final decision on wich Turbo Diesel to get, thanks

GLHS592
10-10-2008, 09:01 PM
Ford has had all kind of problems with the 6.4 and 6.0 Powerstrokes. Our garage at work looks like a Ford dealership with all the late model Powerstrokes sitting around. If I were going to buy a Ford, it would have the old 7.3 Powerstroke. The Duramax is supposedly a good motor, but an inline 6 like the Cummins is hard to beat. The Cummins is going to last a long time even if you only halfway take care of it. It will outlast any truck it's bolted into. I know it's my opinion, but I do not like the sound of a V8 diesel. I'd stay away from any 2007 and newer truck. I don't think any of them have the new emissions stuff figured out yet.

I don't think any of the big 3 have that great of an automatic transmission. The manual transmissions seem to hold up much better. I looked at a few Dodge automatic trucks and they all seemed to have some sort of transmission issue. I held out for a 5 speed.

I don't really see a big difference it build quality between the pickup bodies. I know the GM trucks have had electrical gremlins in recent years. We've had a bunch of them at work with electrical problems. I hear the Fords are pretty good trucks, if you can stand to look at them. I have had nothing but good luck out of my Dodge trucks.

For a reliable, easy to repair, cheap to modify diesel truck, I'd go with a 12 valve Cummins. Of course, that requires a 1997 or older truck.

turbo600
10-10-2008, 09:19 PM
thanks for the quick reply, so your saying a 1997 or older is prob the best bet if im looking to make myself a 13 second daily driver, I know its your opinion but why is the 97 and older my best bet and what is the difference between the 97's and the newer pickups, thanks for the info, this is the type of stuff i really want to know, also is there a certain year I should try to stay away from, for example a certain year known for having a weak trans, electrical problems, or BS emission control, I assuming the 97's are better because emission control crap?

j4278h
10-10-2008, 09:25 PM
they made 12valve the first half of 98, also the first year for quad cab.

In my opinion thats the one to look for if you ever have to haul more than one other person around

GLHNSLHT2
10-10-2008, 10:27 PM
i'd get an 03-05 if I could afford it.

Clay
10-10-2008, 10:30 PM
I also go to this picture when someone asks "Why cummins"

http://www.fordcummins.com/images/connecting%20rod.jpg

the cummins diesel is WAY overbuilt for the application. In fact its turned DOWN for the Rams. It is used in a lot of other applications that use way more power than what they need for the Ram trucks. Average service/rebuild life on the cummins was over 300,000 miles 8 years ago. I imagine now its the same or better.

GLHS592
10-10-2008, 11:45 PM
thanks for the quick reply, so your saying a 1997 or older is prob the best bet if im looking to make myself a 13 second daily driver, I know its your opinion but why is the 97 and older my best bet and what is the difference between the 97's and the newer pickups, thanks for the info, this is the type of stuff i really want to know, also is there a certain year I should try to stay away from, for example a certain year known for having a weak trans, electrical problems, or BS emission control, I assuming the 97's are better because emission control crap?

1997 was the last year (well 1998.5) for the 12 valve. They went 24 valve after that. The 1997 and older trucks don't have the OBD II computer and emissions junk that the newer trucks have. They are pretty much all mechanical. A fuel plate for your injector pump is much cheaper than a power programmer. I'm not knocking the 24 valve trucks. That is a fine motor. You really couldn't go wrong with a 2002-2003 Cummins powered truck. It's just dollar for dollar, the 12 valve will make more power. Also, the 12 valve trucks tend to get better fuel mileage. The only problem is a 1997 model truck is an 11-12 year old truck.

bakes
10-11-2008, 01:11 AM
1997 was the last year (well 1998.5) for the 12 valve. They went 24 valve after that. The 1997 and older trucks don't have the OBD II computer and emissions junk that the newer trucks have. They are pretty much all mechanical. A fuel plate for your injector pump is much cheaper than a power programmer. I'm not knocking the 24 valve trucks. That is a fine motor. You really couldn't go wrong with a 2002-2003 Cummins powered truck. It's just dollar for dollar, the 12 valve will make more power. Also, the 12 valve trucks tend to get better fuel mileage. The only problem is a 1997 model truck is an 11-12 year old truck.

The 12V is cheap to about 400Hp then any power after that gets costly .
My Buds 04 24V with twin compound turbos and other goody have hit 750Hp at the wheels he is planing to ARP stud the block and a ported head ,NOS and better FMIC and try to break 1000HP.

Anonymous_User
10-11-2008, 07:48 AM
And never forget the ol' bumper sticker advice:

I'd rather be Cummin than Strokin.

Not real sure how Duramax fits in there, though. :D

Dominic
10-11-2008, 02:27 PM
Why a Cummins??

The older Volvo Motor Graders uses Cummins engines before they started using their own diesels....You know those small cab-over yard trucks some larger companies use to move trailers around the yards, the Ottawa's, they have cummins in 'em as well.......As far as I know, same internals as the Ram's engines, just programmed differently.....

GLHS592
10-11-2008, 03:59 PM
The 12V is cheap to about 400Hp then any power after that gets costly.

True. Either get costly after that.

Also, an advantage for the 24 valve trucks is the fact that they left the factory with more power. My 12 valve truck with the 4" exhaust, #100 fuel plate, and big air filter is probably making slightly more power than a 24 valve truck.

turbovanman²
10-11-2008, 04:50 PM
D-Max is a wicked engine plus a REAL truck transmission, not a beefed up gas auto. GM's also have better front ends, Dodges of all years kill them in a few years, and its not cheap, ball joints, drag links, bearings etc. Ford and GM are better but I don't like Ford's engines.
It comes down to engine choice really, nothing wrong with a Dmax or Cummins but drive them first, and remember Dodges spit out front ends.

Clay, ever heard of a Dmax throwing a rod????? Not me, ;)

GLHS592
10-11-2008, 06:30 PM
The GM/Allison transmissions have had their share of problems. I know a few GM guys that have had problems similar to Ford and Dodge. I wouldn't have an automatic transmission behind any of the 3 pickup diesel motors.

As for the Dodge front end problems, here is an interesting article: http://www.texaspowerwagon.com/front_end_align.htm

bakes
10-11-2008, 07:23 PM
D-Max is a wicked engine plus a REAL truck transmission, not a beefed up gas auto. GM's also have better front ends, Dodges of all years kill them in a few years, and its not cheap, ball joints, drag links, bearings etc. Ford and GM are better but I don't like Ford's engines.
It comes down to engine choice really, nothing wrong with a Dmax or Cummins but drive them first, and remember Dodges spit out front ends.

Clay, ever heard of a Dmax throwing a rod????? Not me, ;)

the GM front ends are crap you should see all the front parts i have to replace all day long with only 10-18K on them .

lot of head gaskets blown and injector on the early ones

karlak
10-11-2008, 07:32 PM
Dodges spit out front ends.

Clay, ever heard of a Dmax throwing a rod????? Not me, ;)

Just replaced upper and lower ball joints on my 04 Hemi powered standard cab 1500. Rubber was split on both joints.

turbovanman²
10-11-2008, 07:38 PM
The GM/Allison transmissions have had their share of problems. I know a few GM guys that have had problems similar to Ford and Dodge. I wouldn't have an automatic transmission behind any of the 3 pickup diesel motors.

As for the Dodge front end problems, here is an interesting article: http://www.texaspowerwagon.com/front_end_align.htm

That is true, but I believe much less issues than Dodges.

Good article, I should mention next door is an alignment shop and I see Dodge more than any other model, no trailer hitches.

Either way, all good info. :thumb:

mech1nxh
10-12-2008, 11:27 PM
I also go to this picture when someone asks "Why cummins"

http://www.fordcummins.com/images/connecting%20rod.jpg

the cummins diesel is WAY overbuilt for the application. In fact its turned DOWN for the Rams. It is used in a lot of other applications that use way more power than what they need for the Ram trucks. Average service/rebuild life on the cummins was over 300,000 miles 8 years ago. I imagine now its the same or better.


Agreed,
The Fleet I and 4 other techs work on has 100 (out of 175 total)
Diesel configs, 6BT, 7.3, ISB, average mileage at 120 average
stops per day...yes per day! is 300k. before powerplant swap.

Two schools of thought, 6 cyl large bore, 8cyl smaller bore,
but no unbushed gas rods in the mix. like the ? duramax?

as far as trans/ susp issues go, we only work on "large case "
Allisons and 8k straight axle/kingpin configs. (both good
for 250k+)

Ok RANT OFF..

Advise, buy the Cummins, but get a service history, transfer
pumps and inj pumps are pricey!

2.216VTurbo
10-12-2008, 11:54 PM
Who was it said they didn't like the sound of A D-max V8:confused2: Notice the power gains with all the 'tuner companies' Banks, Bully dog, Hypermax, DiabloSport etc all advertise a larger gain with the Duramax than the other two? It's a V8;) Not sure what Powerstrokes problem is:lol:(one ugly sounding motor anyway). But the Cummins is a tried and true set up for sure. This year at the Mopars At The Strip Drag event in Vegas, I ran the truck class with the Rampage (it's first ever outing, solidly in the 13's but not to potential yet) one run I ended up running the Bully Dog factory Cummins truck. Wasn't too embarrasing till about the 300' mark, then he left me for dead:o He ran a 10.28@ 130 something. Later on the dyno, he laid down 1140WHP ande 2210ftlbs on stock crank, rods, block. If the Cummins can tollerate that kind of power...

mech1nxh
10-13-2008, 12:20 AM
Apologies Turbo 600,
Brinkmanship ...apples and oranges, back on topic, longevity, Cummins
/large case Allison. Cant post on real world 4x4 configs though.

black86glhs
10-13-2008, 12:23 AM
Both the cummins and duramax are good engines. The 6.4 pwerstroke is ok, but still has some issues(better than the 6.0). The only auto trans I would get is the allison. I would rather have a six speed manual in either the dodge or chevy, though.
For everyone who says the dodge is crap, I can find someone who says the chevy is crap. Its really up to preference at this point.
IMO...the track bar is a big problem on these trucks and I believe causes the problems on the 4x4's. I have seen many with just a little play in the bars ball joint, but the rest of the suspension is still pretty good. The ones with the wiped out track bars all have the whole front end gone. When the track bar is gone, the front end wanders and puts stress on everything else, especially the steering components. We aren't talking about only high mileage trucks either.
Cummins with a manual trans is a really good combo.:thumb:

turbovanman²
10-13-2008, 01:55 AM
Two schools of thought, 6 cyl large bore, 8cyl smaller bore,
but no unbushed gas rods in the mix. like the ? duramax?


The Dmax rod is bushed, :confused:

Not trying to start a war here but I'VE never heard of a Dmax throwing a rod, EVER and I'm on a Diesel forum. They can also take some serious power upgrades and the bottom end is just fine, :thumb:

The only time I've ever heard of maybe a bearing or rod issue is when the injectors filled up the cylinders with fuel and it hydrolocked.

moparzrule
10-13-2008, 07:15 AM
True. Either get costly after that.

Also, an advantage for the 24 valve trucks is the fact that they left the factory with more power. My 12 valve truck with the 4" exhaust, #100 fuel plate, and big air filter is probably making slightly more power than a 24 valve truck.

What year do you have? Must not be a 96-98 215 pump then. Just a 100 plate on a 215 pump puts you around the 350 RWHP mark which is about 400 at the crank. Just a 100 plate on a 215 pump is too much for the stock turbo to handle.
The 24v is 235 HP and 245 HP for the HO, so I'm not sure how your truck was only making that much power with a 100 plate unless you have a 94-95 automatic with the 160 pump. And if you are comparing a 160 pump to a 215 pump, you might as well be comparing a yugo to a GLHS :thumb:
Now, I had a 94' 175 pump, with a 0 plate, 370 injectors, 4'' straight, HX35 at 38 PSI boost, 181 delivery valves (stock from a 215 pump), BHAF, and I was putting out 325 RWHP and 750 RWTRQ. Like I said, just the 100 or 0 plate on a 215 pump makes more power than all the mods I put on my truck. Oh and I was underturbo'd, EGT's were pegging the 1600 gauge like nothing.

Over 350 RWHP, if you make it to that, you will need a new/better clutch. And they are not cheap. Unless you get an 01-02 HO 6 speed truck you need the 13'' conversion. Southbend Con-FE with the 13'' conversion was around $1500 last I check. Then you have to get it installed :(

Best truck to get is a 98' quad cab 12v cummins. Very rare, but they are out there.
Recipe for ~500 RWHP for a 96-98 215 pump truck in the order you should do them!
Change all fluids and belts/hoses/filters- $200
Killer dowel pin fix- $80 +labor to do it
Gauges, EGT and boost- $200
3K governer spring kit $100, or you can go 4K but that requries valve spring change. The 3K will take you to ~32-3400 RPM
Grind torque plate flat which makes a 0 plate- free 150 HP
Clutch- south bend Con-FE pus 13'' conversion (now that your clutch is slipping) - $1500 plus labor to install
HT Turbo exhaust manifold- $550 (not absolutely necessary but stock manifolds have been known to crack making this much power)
Super phat shaft 66 turbo-$1700
4'' exhaust system with HX40 flange downpipe for your new turbo-$300-400
High flow delivery valves- $275
Now you are making ~400-425 RWHP easily. Time for some injectors. This is where you can go cheap or expensive. Cheap is the 370 marine injectors which will add 75 HP for $350. You would then be right at 500 RWHP. Expensive is dynamite diesel 140 HP injectors for $1000, but then you'd be more around 550 RWHP of course.
Above 550-600 is where is will get extremely expensive. You will need twin turbo's and a twin disc clutch.

http://www.industrialinjection.com/id43.html
http://www.citydiesel.net/injectors-370-horsepower-marine-p-81.html?cPath=22_26_49
http://www.dynomitediesel.com/display_part/233.php
http://www.pdrdiesel.com/products/KDP_Kit-929-0.html


Oh and to answer the thread starters original question, Cummins is better because it's a medium duty engine, not a light duty like the duracrap and powerchoke. It was built for dump trucks and other medium duty equipment.

GLHS592
10-13-2008, 08:42 AM
What year do you have? Must not be a 96-98 215 pump then. Just a 100 plate on a 215 pump puts you around the 350 RWHP mark which is about 400 at the crank. Just a 100 plate on a 215 pump is too much for the stock turbo to handle.
The 24v is 235 HP and 245 HP for the HO, so I'm not sure how your truck was only making that much power with a 100 plate unless you have a 94-95 automatic with the 160 pump. And if you are comparing a 160 pump to a 215 pump, you might as well be comparing a yugo to a GLHS :thumb:

It's a 1997 with a 215 pump. I'm just guessing at the power it's making. The previous owner swapped in the 100 plate and exhaust. He never got around to any other mods. I wish he'd have upgraded the turbo because you're right, the stock turbo isn't enough. The EGT's run a little high at 70 mph pulling my enclosed trailer and a car uphill. I usually end up letting out of it and pull the hill at 60-65mph.

black86glhs
10-13-2008, 01:35 PM
Oh and to answer the thread starters original question, Cummins is better because it's a medium duty engine, not a light duty like the duracrap and powerchoke. It was built for dump trucks and other medium duty equipment.
Don't forget the truck won't rust out due to all the oil leaks. Gotta give all the info, not just the good stuff.

moparzrule
10-13-2008, 03:09 PM
Don't forget the truck won't rust out due to all the oil leaks. Gotta give all the info, not just the good stuff.

Not sure what you are talking about. My 94' had 256K miles on it, all dry underneath.

moparzrule
10-13-2008, 03:50 PM
Besides, 90% of leaks are going to be front crank seal and/or the timing cover. Both seals are replaced and included in the kit for the killer dowel pin fix that I linked too earlier.

black86glhs
10-14-2008, 01:41 AM
Matt, I know about the fixes, but many people out there aren't like us. I've lost count of the Cummins trucks that were totally rust proofed thanks to the 5.9. You have the 1 that isn't. LOL.
Don't jump on the defensive, not knocking them. I know dodge guys and rig/truck drivers that will tell you the same thing(about almost all of the cummins engines). They are known for it.
With that said, I understand the newer ones are much better in sealing.

GLHS592
10-14-2008, 08:38 AM
Both of mine have leaked oil. I attributed it to the lack of maintenance.

trannybuster
10-15-2008, 06:15 PM
Buy a 12v and run 15% wmo.....I do and save about 40.00 a fillup:p

GLHS592
10-15-2008, 07:03 PM
Buy a 12v and run 15% wmo.....I do and save about 40.00 a fillup:p

Do you just filter it and pour it in the tank? How do you filter it?

turbo84voyager
10-16-2008, 12:35 PM
I am not a diesel expert but I have worked on them over the years especially the old GM 6.2 and 6.5's. One problem I became aware of with the cummins is that 97.5 to either 01 or 02 may be equipped with the "53" block which has been known to crack under certain conditions. These blocks were always equipped with the 24 valve head. This is common when the vehicle was used to tow especially up mountains. I don’t care for the duramax because it is a bi-metal motor and good luck keeping the bottom end together in the 6.0 international. I was always a fan of the 12 valve cummins. They ran great and are very simple. V8 diesels never seem to hold up like inline ones. It was unbelievable how the 6.2 and 6.5 blocks were stressed. It was common to find stress cracks in the blocks on engines with near 300K. GM didn’t even recommend rebuilding them after this many miles.

As for the new cummins 6.9. I have heard about block issues. I am not sure if it has been fixed. I am a member of a automotive technician network. I have read messaged from several service stations throughout the world that have come across very low mileage 6.9's with cracked blocks.

Justin

fastasleep
10-16-2008, 09:20 PM
Sterling????? You can get a Cummins and an Allison in those now if I am thinking correctly.
Moparzrules brings up a good point; do ALL PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE FIRST and if you buy a Cummins, DO NOT skimp on the dowel pin upgrade! You will thank yourself later.:D

-Les

trannybuster
10-16-2008, 10:34 PM
Ive had my 12v for 100,000 miles NO ISSUES but I did do the dowel fix. There are also benefits to the older Cummins 95-98 like when my starter just clicked when turned and wouldnt start I was able to buy heavy duty contacts over at dodge diesel forums and it cost me 35.00 NOT 325.00 they wanted for a new one AND I bought new brushes for my alternator when it quit charging but the funny thing was neither issue left me on the side of the road I could always get it running and it always seemed to start charging after a day ((hey it has 2 batteries I got time)). I did do the tq because the mods had it slippin bad the stock trans are good for to much torque so....

Subliminal
10-17-2008, 08:11 AM
My dad used to have a 91 Dodge 1 ton with a stick and the td engine. He would get 20+ MPG with the 2700 Lb camper on the bed.

Now he has a 97 F250HD with the 7.3 PS and an auto. He gets 14-16 running empty.

dds78910
10-17-2008, 12:00 PM
I like the Powerstokes alot, but if you want to make any kind of power with them you need to spend alot more $ to do it. I have a frien who has one he has done some work to it to make it faster. He said 80 HP injctors are $1400, head stud kit is $1000. He put on a H2E turbo kit for his truck that was $2500 He has done a few other things to it that seem way expensive, but his now makes 20 mpg on the inerstate.

He tells me the best truck to get if your looking to upgrade it is the 94-98 12v (p-pump) Cummins. Parts are a fraction of the cost and way easier to work on.

turbo600
10-18-2008, 03:22 PM
thanks for the info, ive been pricing the cummins and im liking it, Im definately getting an automatic though, stick in a big truck just isnt for me

moparzrule
10-18-2008, 05:47 PM
Dodge has the worst automatics. Plan on putting a couple grand into a good rebuild with good parts. And adjust the bands regularly along with getting an external cooler, keeps those trannies alive.

ottawa rogue
01-07-2009, 11:45 PM
from what i've seen in our fleet (450+ vehicles) the cummins ISB (that's the one in your truck) is a pretty decent engine. even the old b 5.9 engines are ok. we have less problems with them than the 6.0l powerstrokes we have.
i can't say anything about the 6.4 P/S yet, we havent had any problems with them yet.
it's when you get into the ISBs bigger brothers that i totally lose faith in cummins engines.
as of today, i have 4 ISC 8.3s in the shop with crapped turbos, and we've had 2 ISLs in the last 6 months with the same thing.
not to mention all the injector problems, injecton pumps, transfer pumps etc we've had problems with.
oh yeah, all the new engines we've gotten in are gonna be fun, tier 2 is gonna be an experience.
in a small truck, i wouldn't have a problem with cummins, but anything bigger make mine cat or even navistar. the DT466e is a great engine

moparzrule
01-08-2009, 08:37 AM
+1, cummins has great smaller engines...but for tractor trailor's, if it ain't a CAT it's a dog. Navistar? :yuck: My brother works for CAT, did you know they aren't going to make truck engines anymore? They are stopping because of all the emissions, it's getting too expensive. They are still sticking with heavy equipment and will still service older truck engines, but no more new!

dds78910
01-08-2009, 04:22 PM
+1, cummins has great smaller engines...but for tractor trailor's, if it ain't a CAT it's a dog. Navistar? :yuck: My brother works for CAT, did you know they aren't going to make truck engines anymore? They are stopping because of all the emissions, it's getting too expensive. They are still sticking with heavy equipment and will still service older truck engines, but no more new!

I work in a gold mine with all Cat equipment and we have at least 2 Cat service repair trucks out every day to make warranty repairs. I talked to one of the regular guys that is out there and he just got a new Ford service truck with a Cat engine. I asked him about this same thing and he said they are still going to make the engines for the larger Ford truck but are going to stop putting them in other brands like Peterbuilt.

But I think the reason I asked him is because I read it in Diesel power magazine a couple months ago. But who knows?:confused:

ottawa rogue
01-10-2009, 07:32 PM
+1, cummins has great smaller engines...but for tractor trailor's, if it ain't a CAT it's a dog. Navistar? :yuck: My brother works for CAT, did you know they aren't going to make truck engines anymore? They are stopping because of all the emissions, it's getting too expensive. They are still sticking with heavy equipment and will still service older truck engines, but no more new!

Ya, i've heard that . here's the funny thing though, Cat and Navistar signed a letter of intent to form an engine alliance last year.
this means that they are going to be sharing engine tech.
really if you look at a C-7 cat(or a 3126) and a DT466E, they are closer to each other than anything. both are HEUI engines and aside from a few minor details, they are almost identical.
here's the crazy thing though, according to the article i read on this,
Navistar is supposed to be building a Cat badged truck for Caterpillar:eek:
not too sure if that's a good move for cat, international engines are pretty good, but their body electronics SUCK!!!!.
a lot of our mid size fleet is navistar, so i know just how bad they can be.

Detroit Diesel is supposed to be getting out of the medium engine market too.
Freightliner is supposed to be going exclusively with Mercedes engines in the mid range too, not surprising as they are owned by Daimler

ottawa rogue
01-10-2009, 07:36 PM
here's a couple of articles on this
http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/12/caterpillar-navistar-trucks-markets-equity-cx_ra_0612markets13.html
and one from the horses' mouth
http://www.cat.com/cda/components/fullArticle?m=167201&x=7&id=895047

440dart
08-05-2009, 12:30 AM
durmaxs have a problem with "shrinking rods" aka bent rods iam pretty big into deisel powered rigs they say duramaxs with a really good tune stock rods will handle close to 700hp with crappy tunes lots of timeing ect they say 500hp


if it was me i would go with an 03 and up cummins over a 12v we have both as tow trucks and rollbacks, and our 05's will walk away everytime with a heavy load 12valves have 0-plates slid forward, 05s are running a superchips towing tune

my 98 12 valve stock injectors turbo made 314hp and 822ftlbs with no plate mac plug 4gsk my dads rollback even weighing 12,000lbs by its self with a load would walk away from my truck

12valves cheap and cheap power
commonrail almost drive themselves can add power just by pluging it in

moparzrule
08-05-2009, 06:17 AM
Your 98' an automatic? There's a HUGE difference between the 180 pump and 215 from a 5 speed. Just a 0 plate nearly doubles stock output of a 215 pump. Add 370 injectors or DDP4's, laser cut delivery valves, a good clutch, and a large turbo, 500 RWHP.