Any 50 Trim TIII's Out there?

[Mario]

Looking for Drag Times and Dyno numbers just for current and future reference.

[turbovanman²]

Me, see sig, :eyebrows: :amen:

[Pat]

12.0 @ 118 in a Spirit R/T
11.6 @ 120 in a Shadow

[Mario]

Engine set-up?

Pat, what was your 60' Time?

[Pat]

Engine set-up?

Pat, what was your 60' Time?

Mostly stock long block/manifolds, 50 trim/stage III, FMIC (Spearco on Shadow, dual Tbird cores on the Spirit), fwd 3 bar cal at the time on each. ST's were in the 1.8's somewhere.

[turbovanman²]

Engine set-up?


Me or Pat?

[Mario]

Me or Pat?

Pat. :D

[Xtrempickup]

i have a 54 trim and i made 408whp/442ft lbs trq on 27 psi with meth injection on 93 octane

[glht_omni]

tom, did you ever get it to the track, before you tore it down?

mario, are you running a 50 trim or thinking about putting one on?

the new bandwagon for T3's are holsets, just ask lotashelbys and bansheenut420. you need a custom downpipe though, so a gt35bb and a TU 3" is a bolt on deal.

[Mario]

tom, did you ever get it to the track, before you tore it down?

mario, are you running a 50 trim or thinking about putting one on?

the new bandwagon for T3's are holsets, just ask lotashelbys and bansheenut420. you need a custom downpipe though, so a gt35bb and a TU 3" is a bolt on deal.

Running one. T04E 50 Trim with a Stage II Wheel. Full 3" 02 Housing into a straight 3" exhaust all the way back. No muffler. Somehow quite quiet.

[glht_omni]

awesome! i still have the stock turbo and swingvalve, but full 3" ss mandrel, no muffler and it can be quiet from inside the car untill you got wot and its still not that bad. i had a cop in a charger follow me for 4 miles and 3 red lights and he didnt flick me. i passed the keys to Rick Diogo at milan and stood in the bleachers by Cindy to watch my car run and then i realized how loud it really was echoing off the walls....it sounded like a drag harley!

as you already know a 6" bullet dynomax will bring it down to a nice WRX sounding rumble.

are you taking it to the 1/4 this year? i am curious to see what it does. what does the rest of your setup consist of? ac, abs, ic, cal/psi, etc.?

[Mario]

awesome! i still have the stock turbo and swingvalve, but full 3" ss mandrel, no muffler and it can be quiet from inside the car untill you got wot and its still not that bad. i had a cop in a charger follow me for 4 miles and 3 red lights and he didnt flick me. i passed the keys to Rick Diogo at milan and stood in the bleachers by Cindy to watch my car run and then i realized how loud it really was echoing off the walls....it sounded like a drag harley!

as you already know a 6" bullet dynomax will bring it down to a nice WRX sounding rumble.

are you taking it to the 1/4 this year? i am curious to see what it does. what does the rest of your setup consist of? ac, abs, ic, cal/psi, etc.?

No A/C. No ABS. Knockoff Spearco up front. Generic 3 Bar Cal right now. Ditching that for a custom tuned one in a week or two. Currently has 52 lbs/hr injectors. Meth Injection kit....it's hooked up but I'm not running it right now. Doesn't need it. Running 20PSI.

I wouldn't mind heading to the strip. I'll either do that or head to the dyno before the end of the month to get a good tune on the car.

Besides a different calibration, the only thing I'd like to do before the end of the year is injectors and maybe a different IC with 2.5" - 3" Piping. Although the current one seems to be doing just fine at this boost level. I've been doing some logging on intake temps and they seem quite low, but the weather has been good too.

[Xtrempickup]

car is still together, has not been to the track in a the recent, last time there i think it went 14.5 at 107, with crappy 60ft and it as spinning them at 70 mph when boost came in hard into 3rd

[bansheenut420]

the new bandwagon for T3's are holsets, just ask lotashelbys and bansheenut420. you need a custom downpipe though, so a gt35bb and a TU 3" is a bolt on deal.

Just to clairfy, you need a 4" vband and a welder is all for a Holset if you keep the stock housing. And a hx35 will outflow a GT35 and its a fraction of the price, and the hx40 strait up kills it.

HX35 63 lb/min
HX40 74 lb/min
H1E 72 lb/min

Some Garrett GT40 ratings for comparison:
GT4082R 50T 58 lb/min
GT4088R 52T 68 lb/min
GT4088R 54T 72 lb/min

Sorry not a hijack, just wanted to clear up the mis info.... :grouphug:

[glht_omni]

sound like a pretty good setup mario, you shouldnt have any problem getting into the 12's, might need slicks if the drag radials arent sticking. fleckster went 13.1 on stock turbo, 18-20psi and a dual core stock ic with slicks.

cory, i am not trying to compare the gt against the holset, thats a whole other thread, lol. i am a believer in the holset after seeing your setup and what jackson did with the hoopty spirit.

v band + welder = custom downpipe. you cant buy a bolt on pipe for our cars to fit a holset off the shelf like our 3" down pipe and 3" sv and bolt it up to a T3 flanged GT.

[bansheenut420]

My holset lifted my head :( car will be down for a few. lol But, will probably get more mods in the process.

[Xtrempickup]

wow thats pretty bad. how you gonna keep that head down? head studs already isnt it

[bansheenut420]

I did a few things wrong.... One..... Only torqued the studs to 65. Two, should have put the fuel pump in long ago and the head never would have lifted when it overboosted and leaned out. I havent driven this car on anywhere near its potential. I bet the moded srt8 guy would be really upset to know he got beat by a car with a lifted head. lol I am posting a video of how bad its leaking. lol

[glht_omni]

wow, it overboosted again or your talking about that f'ed up graph you posted a month ago?
what did it overboost too and what were your a/f's?

[bansheenut420]

I dont want to clutter up his thread with my stuff, so you can read about it here.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30546
The holset just flows so much that we have to tighen our arp studs to "jackson racing" standards. 100 ft/lbs. lmfao :p

[Directconnection]

I dont want to clutter up his thread with my stuff, so you can read about it here.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30546
The holset just flows so much that we have to tighen our arp studs to "jackson racing" standards. 100 ft/lbs. lmfao :p


ahh.. I read your thread here, too.

What's it like vs the 50trim? What rpm does full boost come on at?

[bansheenut420]

Are you asking me? I have never had a 50trim. Just the crappy s70 and the stocker. The holset is no more laggy than the s70 was.

[Pat]

I'm not knocking the holsets...I'm interested in learning more about them and possibly trying one, but I have yet to see any real results to compare to what a "typical" t3/t4 has done on a T-III. I'm very interested in see what the power curve looks like, not just the peak number.

The only holset powered T-III I remember seeing results from was when Wallace tried one on his Spirit, which slowed him down. I don't remember what turbo it was or what the problem ended up being, but I seem to recall him suck in the mid 12's after making the switch.

[rx2mazda]

You can drive mine at Cecil Pat:thumb:

Honestly, I loved my 50trim! But, I destroyed it and I wanted to try something different and Holset looked(for the price)to be a good option. I also was debating the gt3076 and Precision SC but it would have cost me a lot more and one was still JB turbos. The HE351CW has a comparable turbine(9cm=.65a/r)and a compressor that flows 60lbs/min. "Shadow" put down 480whp with the same turbo on a 8valve and KClarry put down 435whp in a hybrid motor same turbo. IIRC Wallace used the HX-40 in a Bullseye .55a/r housing, Spooled like crazy but choked the turbo big time on the top. I think I am going to still rebuild my 50trim and make it a super50 just incase I need it in the future.

[bansheenut420]

I'm not knocking the holsets...I'm interested in learning more about them and possibly trying one, but I have yet to see any real results to compare to what a "typical" t3/t4 has done on a T-III. I'm very interested in see what the power curve looks like, not just the peak number.

The only holset powered T-III I remember seeing results from was when Wallace tried one on his Spirit, which slowed him down. I don't remember what turbo it was or what the problem ended up being, but I seem to recall him suck in the mid 12's after making the switch.
Wallace was running 12.2@118 with the holset. The housing was a BEP.55 a/r. But, from what he told me he also had a blown HG plus a few other issues. Lots of dsm guys have made 500whp on the BEP .55 housing. One has even made 602 awhp on the same setup I am using, with a ported turbine housing and mine is WAY ported. I lost a bit of spool, but gained it back and more up top. And I also, in no way hope anything I have said about the hybrids were taken in offence. They are good, proven turbos. I just didnt want to go that route. I was about to, and just decided I wanted somthing different. Wallace has gone faster on a hybrid then he got out of his holset.

You can drive mine at Cecil Pat:thumb:

Honestly, I loved my 50trim! But, I destroyed it and I wanted to try something different and Holset looked(for the price)to be a good option. I also was debating the gt3076 and Precision SC but it would have cost me a lot more and one was still JB turbos. The HE351CW has a comparable turbine(9cm=.65a/r)and a compressor that flows 60lbs/min. "Shadow" put down 480whp with the same turbo on a 8valve and KClarry put down 435whp in a hybrid motor same turbo. IIRC Wallace used the HX-40 in a Bullseye .55a/r housing, Spooled like crazy but choked the turbo big time on the top. I think I am going to still rebuild my 50trim and make it a super50 just incase I need it in the future.
Both Wallace and I have ported our housings. He estimates his is now much much closer to .70 a/r. Mine is also huge as well, or atlest in comparason. I am not sure what a/r its close to. But, its not the same housing it was when I gave it to Ondonti to port. I am really happy with how it turned out. Its never choked off on me. And my HG can prove that. lmfao. It didnt choke even when the boost wasnt supposed to go to 35psi. lol
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/after-the-head-lift_190795.htm

[Pat]

And I also, in no way hope anything I have said about the hybrids were taken in offence.

Don't be silly...not at all. I've been curious about the holsets for a while, but my current hybrid has been holding together fine so I haven't made any switches. Once someone dyno's one on a T-III, I'd really like to see it. I want to see what the area under the curve looks like compared to a hybrid.

Peak numbers are great, but I've beaten quite a few cars that made a lot more peak HP than me. Wide powerbands rock. :thumb:

[Pat]

You can drive mine at Cecil Pat:thumb:

Honestly, I loved my 50trim! But, I destroyed it and I wanted to try something different and Holset looked(for the price)to be a good option. I also was debating the gt3076 and Precision SC but it would have cost me a lot more and one was still JB turbos. The HE351CW has a comparable turbine(9cm=.65a/r)and a compressor that flows 60lbs/min. "Shadow" put down 480whp with the same turbo on a 8valve and KClarry put down 435whp in a hybrid motor same turbo. IIRC Wallace used the HX-40 in a Bullseye .55a/r housing, Spooled like crazy but choked the turbo big time on the top. I think I am going to still rebuild my 50trim and make it a super50 just incase I need it in the future.

All good info...thanks.

Drive you car at Cecil? Don't tempt me!!!

[turbovanman²]

I think I am going to still rebuild my 50trim and make it a super50 just incase I need it in the future.

I have a spare S50 wheel in case you want one, I don't think Turbonetics has any left, ;)

[bansheenut420]

Don't be silly...not at all. I've been curious about the holsets for a while, but my current hybrid has been holding together fine so I haven't made any switches. Once someone dyno's one on a T-III, I'd really like to see it. I want to see what the area under the curve looks like compared to a hybrid.

Peak numbers are great, but I've beaten quite a few cars that made a lot more peak HP than me. Wide powerbands rock. :thumb:

I totally agree. about the powerband. I feel like mine is pretty good, and will be better once I get Cindy to work on the soft limiter at 7200. :yuck: It needs to be higher. My powerband is better than it was with s70, so I am happy. lol

[Ondonti]

Just to clairfy, you need a 4" vband and a welder is all for a Holset if you keep the stock housing. And a hx35 will outflow a GT35 and its a fraction of the price, and the hx40 strait up kills it.

HX35 63 lb/min
HX40 74 lb/min
H1E 72 lb/min

Some Garrett GT40 ratings for comparison:
GT4082R 50T 58 lb/min
GT4088R 52T 68 lb/min
GT4088R 54T 72 lb/min

Sorry not a hijack, just wanted to clear up the mis info.... :grouphug:

lol you keep posting that.

Holset numbers are all wrong, 66lb/min on a 60mm hx40 6 blade.
Basically take 8ish lb/min off each holset and you will be close to the real numbers.


Doesn't Tyler have a 50 trim? I wont say anything about it beyond that.:love:

Wallace used to run a 50 trim. He went faster on that because the stpcl turbine side was friendlier when it comes to backpressure.
With a 50 trim you can choose between stage I, II, III, V and .48, .63, .82 a/r housings (t3 style since this is a TIII not a dodge flange).
So you have a lot of control over the exhaust side flow/spool which is great depending on how you want your car to behave.
You can even do a T4 P trim wheel in any of the T3 housings. My friend with an sr20 has a sc6182 which uses the P trim t4 wheel, same one that I use in my turbo.
He just ran an 11.8 with his girlfriend in the passenger seat and only 17psi boost.
sc6182 is pretty much a gt35 with not quite as "awesome" wheels, but I think the difference is negligible in the real world.

[Ondonti]

tom, did you ever get it to the track, before you tore it down?

mario, are you running a 50 trim or thinking about putting one on?

the new bandwagon for T3's are holsets, just ask lotashelbys and bansheenut420. you need a custom downpipe though, so a gt35bb and a TU 3" is a bolt on deal.


Try buying a 3" swingvalve and watch what happens. :confused:

Those are a thing of the past now, TU is trying to hook up the last few people who want them but hell, they sell ATP stuff and probably will replace that with something they produce. Would be a lot easier for small unreliable orders (thats what 3" swingvalves are for TU).


Tyler is running a 50 trim and the ATP setup. Thats something you can buy and bolt on.

Since 3" swingvalves are likely a thing of the past, and because TIII's dont use a dodge inlet flange, they have no use for custom turbine housings.

TIII's can use the real gt35 turbine housing. All the options are very boost creepy with everyone "stuck" on running internal wastegates. Real gt35 housing has a 3.5" exit so you either need to run a 3.5" downpipe or drop it down to 3" right away (i would keep it 3.5" until it gets into the exhaust tunnel).
One bonus of putting a poor flowing downpipe on, it wont creep as bad cause your turbo wont want to spool as well :D (Lesson people should learn from stock mitsu turbos and 3" swingvalves + exhaust).

[Turbo3Iroc]

My "real" GT35 has a 3" outlet.:confused:

[1qk4dr]

I run a 46 trim with a .48 ar exhaust side. The boost comes on pretty strong in the 3000-3500 range(this from memory since my car hasn't ran in two years). BTW It was a bit more laggy than the stock turbo.

[turbovanman²]

I'll be putting a 50 trim, Stage II on my R/T when I get it running. It will be mostly stock except for a large IC, 2.5 inch exhaust, stock cal with no limiters.

Interesting to see how it will run. :nod:

[glht_omni]

Try buying a 3" swingvalve and watch what happens. :confused:

Those are a thing of the past now, TU is trying to hook up the last few people who want them but hell, they sell ATP stuff and probably will replace that with something they produce. Would be a lot easier for small unreliable orders (thats what 3" swingvalves are for TU).


Tyler is running a 50 trim and the ATP setup. Thats something you can buy and bolt on.

Since 3" swingvalves are likely a thing of the past, and because TIII's dont use a dodge inlet flange, they have no use for custom turbine housings.

TIII's can use the real gt35 turbine housing. All the options are very boost creepy with everyone "stuck" on running internal wastegates. Real gt35 housing has a 3.5" exit so you either need to run a 3.5" downpipe or drop it down to 3" right away (i would keep it 3.5" until it gets into the exhaust tunnel).
One bonus of putting a poor flowing downpipe on, it wont creep as bad cause your turbo wont want to spool as well :D (Lesson people should learn from stock mitsu turbos and 3" swingvalves + exhaust).

i am not sure what you mean? if you want to buy a 3" swingvalve you have to wait another month or so. the gt35 is available with like 7 different exhaust housings including a T3 that fits a TU 3" sv.

mitsu + 3" sv:confused: never heard of a 3" swing valve for the mitsu?

i have put 3" exhaust to a stock mitsu with a 2.5" swing valve and the thing spools too quick and wants to blow past 15psi with a stock ecu and wastegate solenoid.

not trying to start any arguments, but i must have missed your point.

to each their own, i am not downplaying the holset at all. everybody sounds happy with it, but numbers on the dyno and 1/4 is where the proof is and nobody has posted any info like that.

run a hybrid that was meant for high flowing 4 cyls, run a holset that was meant for a big v8 tow vehicle or run an expensive gtbb that was meant to stand up to 24hr. lemans races. thats the good thing about owning your own car, you can make the decisions.

after talking to cory about the costs of going his route and its not any cheaper than a gt with a 3" swingvalve, unless you can fab up your own $500 downpipe and get a buddy to hook you up with some bullseye porting:thumb:

i dont weld or port and it would cost me $1500+ to copy corys turbo/wastegate/downpipe setup.

[turbovanman²]

He was saying that uncorking the exhaust helps the turbo spool and can cause overboost, ala the Mitsu with a big exhaust or if you don't port the wastegate hole on a Holset, same problem, massive boost creep.

[bansheenut420]

No numbers? Jacksons "not rod" went 115 in the 1/4. Thats real numbers. Not bad for just putting the turbo on and nothign else. I would have had numbers, but found out I lifted the head. I would have been disapointed with the numbers with that going on. Plus, I have talked to tons of dsm guys that are making 500+whp on the hx35. There was a guy that made 602 on his hx40 and ported bep housing. Another, with a 2.3l stroker dsm made 658 on a hx40. So, no there are no real numbers out there. They are new to TD's so it not really a suprise no one has numbers on them for our cars.

[bansheenut420]

i dont weld or port and it would cost me $1500+ to copy corys turbo/wastegate/downpipe setup.
Or, you can pay just that much for a GT turbo..... Then have to worry about a decent downpipe, be stuck with an internal gate, or have to fab somthing.

[glht_omni]

whats a new or rebuilt hx35 or hx40 cost? i have seen new gt35's as low as $1100 add a 3" sv and a ss line kit and thats $1500.
i figured $250-300 for a used holset, $300 to rebuild, $250-300 external wastegate, ss line kit $100, porting the housing $200? flange, pipe and a good welders pay for the fabbng time to fit it for my specific car $300+ ($500 if you want jackson type craftsmanship). thats right about the same price, you just have to spend the time finding the right people to do the work and wait.

like i said, one is a bolt on affair and the other is custom.

i would prefer the holset/external wastegate setup, but try getting jackson to whip up a pipe for you.....you'll be waiting a lot longer as jackson is a super busy guy. if i am going to pay for it, i want it to look good like yours, not just some guy down the street bubble gumming up a pipe and calling it $300-500 and having to leave my car with him.

[Lotashelbys]

I keep hearing this Jackson name.....

[bansheenut420]

I keep hearing this Jackson name.....

Who is that guy?

[turbovanman²]

Who is that guy?

Some poser who thinks he's god's gift to TIII's, so I hear, ;)

[rx2mazda]

Who is that guy?

You wouldn't like him, trust me....I don't!!:D

[Ondonti]

My "real" GT35 has a 3" outlet.:confused:

Right. Its the gt40 that has 3.5" outlet.
I have a 3" 4 bolt flange for a gt35 that I was sent long ago when I really needed a 2.5" 4 bolt.

[Ondonti]

i am not sure what you mean? if you want to buy a 3" swingvalve you have to wait another month or so. the gt35 is available with like 7 different exhaust housings including a T3 that fits a TU 3" sv.

mitsu + 3" sv:confused: never heard of a 3" swing valve for the mitsu?

i have put 3" exhaust to a stock mitsu with a 2.5" swing valve and the thing spools too quick and wants to blow past 15psi with a stock ecu and wastegate solenoid.

not trying to start any arguments, but i must have missed your point.

to each their own, i am not downplaying the holset at all. everybody sounds happy with it, but numbers on the dyno and 1/4 is where the proof is and nobody has posted any info like that.

run a hybrid that was meant for high flowing 4 cyls, run a holset that was meant for a big v8 tow vehicle or run an expensive gtbb that was meant to stand up to 24hr. lemans races. thats the good thing about owning your own car, you can make the decisions.

after talking to cory about the costs of going his route and its not any cheaper than a gt with a 3" swingvalve, unless you can fab up your own $500 downpipe and get a buddy to hook you up with some bullseye porting:thumb:

i dont weld or port and it would cost me $1500+ to copy corys turbo/wastegate/downpipe setup.

Rick Dogio (sp?) 3" mitsu sv ;)
Just your average 3" exhaust will cause most mitsu setups to creep though. I was trying to be excessive because some people seem to think mitsu's dont creep with 3" exhaust.

But lets be honest. A 3" swingvalve is not on par with Cory's setup, so dont compare them. If they cost the same, then its just an unfortunate choice to pick a swingvalve.


My point is only that TIII's dont live in the 8 valve world. 8 valve thinking and 8 valve mods just dont carry the same weight.

Things that people used to call "excessive" in the 8v world ("who really needs a 3" swingvalve blah blah blah") are quite the opposite it in the tIII 16valve world.

I think TIII guys should look into external gated setups. I am still amazed how much power they can make on a stock turbine housing. After porting Cory's old stock turbine housing, I just couldn't believe that piece of crap was designed by someone with a brain. The 8 valve swing is much better then the crap on the TIII but I would never purposely choose a swingvalve when there are better options out there for the same money.

I watched Cory blow past a TT dohc 3.0 stealth (sorry Clint lol)even with his heads lifted and clutch slipping. The TIII motor just doesn't deserve to be bottled up. Just because Jackson made a nice downpipe, doesn't mean cory has an perfect setup. That POS turbo (being mean cause the turbo broke the car) still creeped to high hell and lifted his head. I had to port the wastegate hole a bunch to get it to behave. I will blame some of that on the log manifold which creates more backpressure. TIII's would be lovely with a tubular mani.


50 trim + ATP outlet and call it a day!
Chris is likely coming out with something new so I would rather go ATP or wait for the new product. My guess is it will be similar to the ATP but it will be more friendly on directing exhaust to the stock location (so you dont need to do so much downpipe fab, probably zero will be required).

He could even make a jig for a fake external style downpipe like Cory has. When things stop being "custom" they get a lot more affordable, because the thinking only has to be done once. I bet he could build something like that for 300 bucks a piece + cost of wastegate. Then you could choose the cheaper ATP style setup or the nicer setup for a bit more change.

[4sfed4]

The holset just flows so much that we have to tighen our arp studs to "jackson racing" standards. 100 ft/lbs. lmfao :p
I can tell you for sure that I never torqued the studs past 85 ft lb and the head never lifted with 30+ psi boost on the SC61 turbo. I actually ran 35 psi boost with that turbo on the street along with a 30 shot of N20 (but didnt dyno it like that) and the head still stayed put fine.

Yet, I lifted the head easily with the stock turbo and blew a sheet (literally) of coolant out the side of the head. I believe that detonation lifts heads far more than actual power output. I had to be convinced of this by others way back when, but I think its the truth. The pressure spike of a detonation event can be very severe.

And, these heads surely seem picky about flatness. When mine was off something like 0.006-0.007, it might as well have been an inch!

[rx2mazda]

i will never torque my arp head studs to 100ft/lbs.....thats insane!

[Speedeuphoria]

I agree,85ft/lbs is plenty

[TurboJerry]

I use stock head bolts on the T-III for now! Detonation can cause cylinder pressures to reach 9000-10000 psi. Even with 1/2" studs the head will lift with 120 ft.lbs. torque if there's "medium" detonation at 500 whp. I usually torque the 11mm arp bolts or studs to 95 though, as it gives the correct stretch on new ones. (drop the torque value as they get used again and again.)

[rx2mazda]

I use stock head bolts on the T-III for now! Detonation can cause cylinder pressures to reach 9000-10000 psi. Even with 1/2" studs the head will lift with 120 ft.lbs. torque if there's "medium" detonation at 500 whp. I usually torque the 11mm arp bolts or studs to 95 though, as it gives the correct stretch on new ones. (drop the torque value as they get used again and again.)

I have to disagree. I'm not really sure what "medium" detonation at 500hp is or how you would measure/judge it's intensity. I believe medium detonation at 500 hp will put the rods through the block. If you have detonation at that level you are going to have bigger problems than your head lifting. The fact is that MOST of us are running stock TIII rods and though they are strong they will not handle detonation at 500hp. ARP studs and bolts are about the strongest the average person can get. I am sure ARP did R+D on numerous High HP(500-2000hp) engines and came up with their RECOMMENDED torque values. That being said, no manufacter of any heavy duty part(pistons,rods,cranks) advertise these items as detonation safe, why? Because the pressures/forces in a high hp engine is incredable and somethings gonna give. Torqueing your head down harded is not gonna stop anything bad from happening, if your running safe and not detonating your head is not lifting because of an extra 15ft/lbs.

Anyways, arp recommends 65-70ft/lbs, mine are torqued to 85:D

[bansheenut420]

tired fuel pump caused it to run lean. I am sure it detonated a little. I was amazed to go back and find that on the first datalog where it overboosted. You can see the head lift, boost drops, egt drops and I didnt lift my foot. lol Its been hurt ever since. I did smell a little antifreeze as well, but didnt think much of it. lol I think the run with the tt stealth did it in.

I was being a little excessive with the 100 ft/lbs. lol I know why it lifted, and the new fuel pump, rail and lines will solve that. :amen:

[4sfed4]

I was being a little excessive with the 100 ft/lbs. lol I know why it lifted, and the new fuel pump, rail and lines will solve that. :amen:

I suspect that your studs were pretty loose. I found that if I didnt follow the "recheck" procedure as is so often recommended (i.e. after the head heat cycles a few times, go back and retorque), that the studs were way loose! I was really suprised to see how much they actually loosened up. I remember that after initially torquing to 65 ft lb, that it took only about 40 ft lb to loosen them back up.

Also, the other thing to remember is that the torque values will vary depending on what lubricant is used. I believe many folks use the ARP supplied lube.

[Lotashelbys]

Remember guys,the ARP studs we use arent even meant for a TIII originally:D

[Aries_Turbo]

I suspect that your studs were pretty loose. I found that if I didnt follow the "recheck" procedure as is so often recommended (i.e. after the head heat cycles a few times, go back and retorque), that the studs were way loose! I was really suprised to see how much they actually loosened up. I remember that after initially torquing to 65 ft lb, that it took only about 40 ft lb to loosen them back up.

Also, the other thing to remember is that the torque values will vary depending on what lubricant is used. I believe many folks use the ARP supplied lube.

hi Larry. :)

yeah i tore up a headgasket when i accidentally overboosted before i retorqued.

Brian

[glht_omni]

Remember guys,the ARP studs we use arent even meant for a TIII originally:D

nope, they were made for a cheasy honda/acura engine.:bolt:

[turbovanman²]

Remember guys,the ARP studs we use arent even meant for a TIII originally:D

Thats doesn't matter, 11mm is 11mm, and they use the same material as far as I can remember as the 8 valve studs. :D

Just remember NOT to bottom out the stud, I usually snug them down then back off 2-3 turns, then hold the stud while I tighten up the nut so they don't wind back in, then after that, just torque down. The first time I didn't hold them down for the initial snug, I couldn't get them all accurate.

[Ondonti]

I have to disagree. I'm not really sure what "medium" detonation at 500hp is or how you would measure/judge it's intensity. I believe medium detonation at 500 hp will put the rods through the block. If you have detonation at that level you are going to have bigger problems than your head lifting. The fact is that MOST of us are running stock TIII rods and though they are strong they will not handle detonation at 500hp. ARP studs and bolts are about the strongest the average person can get. I am sure ARP did R+D on numerous High HP(500-2000hp) engines and came up with their RECOMMENDED torque values. That being said, no manufacter of any heavy duty part(pistons,rods,cranks) advertise these items as detonation safe, why? Because the pressures/forces in a high hp engine is incredable and somethings gonna give. Torqueing your head down harded is not gonna stop anything bad from happening, if your running safe and not detonating your head is not lifting because of an extra 15ft/lbs.

Anyways, arp recommends 65-70ft/lbs, mine are torqued to 85:D

Yup, overtorquing headstuds wont stop them from failing under high HP detonation.

That said, ARP does a lot less testing then you would think they do.

I am goign to check the torque on my 3.0 headbolts now thanks to this stupid thread :P
I suspect I lifted a head when I blew a freeze plug but there was zero leakdown into the coolant.

[bansheenut420]

Yes, larry. They were loose. But, I did the heat cycle and re-check. I think I just stretched them. I will have the head off in the next couple days and will update. Hey Larry, I know I have asked you a bunch of times but what is the stuff I need to datalog with my scanner?

[rx2mazda]

Yes, larry. They were loose. But, I did the heat cycle and re-check. I think I just stretched them. I will have the head off in the next couple days and will update. Hey Larry, I know I have asked you a bunch of times but what is the stuff I need to datalog with my scanner?

I thought I told you? OTC2000 scanner, warrens datalog program, db-9 cable and the cable that attaches the otc to the car, and a laptop. :thumb:

[bansheenut420]

I thought I told you? OTC2000 scanner, warrens datalog program, db-9 cable and the cable that attaches the otc to the car, and a laptop. :thumb:

lol You may have. I think Larry has to. I keep putting the info somewhere on my computer, and then loose it. lol
Where can I get the datalog program? And, do they sell db-9 cables at like radioshack? lol Thanks for the help.

[Aries_Turbo]

warren hall's (csxtra) has info on his website on his sig.

Brian

[Mario]

So, besides Pat, no one has dyno numbers or drag times?

[glht_omni]

i guess that leaves the task up to you, i believe specmo is still open on woodward. also the charge temps are alot lower next week.:thumb:

[Mario]

i guess that leaves the task up to you, i believe specmo is still open on woodward. also the charge temps are alot lower next week.:thumb:

I should be headed to at least the dyno next week. The track if I'm able to as well.

You aren't kidding about charge temps. I did some data logging recently and damn are they nice when it's 50 degrees out.

[turbovanman²]

So, besides Pat, no one has dyno numbers or drag times?

See sig!!!!!!!!!! :confused:

[bansheenut420]

Mopar2ya also went 11.6@120somthing with his, and made 421whp on the dyno.

[glht_omni]

I should be headed to at least the dyno next week. The track if I'm able to as well.

You aren't kidding about charge temps. I did some data logging recently and damn are they nice when it's 50 degrees out.

what system did you pick out for datalogging?

[Mario]

Otc 2000

[turbovanman²]

Otc 2000

And they can be found cheaply, :nod:

[Ondonti]

Mopar2ya also went 11.6@120somthing with his, and made 421whp on the dyno.

repost of what I posted of which was ignored.

[Mario]

repost of what I posted of which was ignored.

I've read everyone's post. I wasn't ignoring anyone, just asking if there were any more out there.

[Ondonti]

I've read everyone's post. I wasn't ignoring anyone, just asking if there were any more out there.


So, besides Pat, no one has dyno numbers or drag times?
:amen:

[86Shelby]

Here's a timeslip and dyno graph of my car while the previous owner had it. I have not dyno'd it yet after rebuilding the engine. I can't drive so my track times are piss poor.

http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/8/web/824000-824999/824248_10_full.jpghttp://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/8/web/824000-824999/824248_3_full.jpg

The dyno was done on 21 psi. T4 50 trim wheel, E housing / .63 turbine stage 3 wheel. Spearco front mount intercooler, 3" exhaust to the bumper. Ported head intake & exhaust manifolds with stage 1 cams from Lonewolf. +40s, 3-bar and stage 4 cal from FWDP. The data logs show it running terribly rich above 3900 rpm to redline. Take it for what it's worth; that's all I have.

[turbovanman²]

Not bad, some tuning and it would be a rocket. I made 290 whp last year after I threw it together, 20 psi, stock cams, same turbo, 8 valve G-head cal, :o I ran 13.8@100 mph, 2.2-2.4 ish 60 foot times, :(

[Mario]

That's what I was looking for Ray. Thanks. Anyone have Wallace's Dyno plot?

[Turbo224]

Doesn't Tyler have a 50 trim? I wont say anything about it beyond that.:love:


What is that supposed to mean?! Are you trying to say my 16.8 wasn't impressive?! :)

I have not done nearly enough testing with my car, but I can tell ya one thing I would have done diffrent on my car if I put it together again. EXTERNAL WASTEGATE!! I think the 50 trim is a good turbo for our cars, but I have serious doubts about the dependibility of an internal wg setup holding the boost. I have a stock head, and stock intake, a seriously ported exhaust manifold, and the atp 3" wg setup and I believe the flow numbers are too high for the wg can to hold the wg closed. Atleast that is my theory. After about 2k miles on the setup the brand new turbonetics large can wg actuator spring could no longer hold the wg shut. Which I have come to find caused my poor track performance. (and my terrible driving skills)

I suspect that your studs were pretty loose. I found that if I didnt follow the "recheck" procedure as is so often recommended (i.e. after the head heat cycles a few times, go back and retorque), that the studs were way loose! I was really suprised to see how much they actually loosened up. I remember that after initially torquing to 65 ft lb, that it took only about 40 ft lb to loosen them back up.

Also, the other thing to remember is that the torque values will vary depending on what lubricant is used. I believe many folks use the ARP supplied lube.

[Turbo224]

Doesn't Tyler have a 50 trim? I wont say anything about it beyond that.:love:


What is that supposed to mean?! Are you trying to say my 16.8 wasn't impressive?! :)

I have not done nearly enough testing with my car, but I can tell ya one thing I would have done diffrent on my car if I put it together again. EXTERNAL WASTEGATE!! I think the 50 trim is a good turbo for our cars, but I have serious doubts about the dependibility of an internal wg setup holding the boost. I have a stock head, and stock intake, a seriously ported exhaust manifold, and the atp 3" wg setup and I believe the flow numbers are too high for the wg can to hold the wg closed. Atleast that is my theory. After about 2k miles on the setup the brand new turbonetics large can wg actuator spring could no longer hold the wg shut. Which I have come to find caused my poor track performance. (and my terrible driving skills) 5psi=less than impressive track numbers.

I think the external wg setup is by far the best way to go, even if it requires a little bit more work. Although I have to say the fabrication for the atp stuff is amazingly easy.



I found that if I didnt follow the "recheck" procedure as is so often recommended (i.e. after the head heat cycles a few times, go back and retorque), that the studs were way loose!
lube.


I wonder why some cars are different. Did you use the arp moly lube? I checked my studs three different times after multiple heat cycles and they never loosened at all. They have been reused before, so I wonder if that had any effect on them.


For those thing about a 50/ATP setup, it is certainly easy to put together. :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

I wonder why some cars are different. Did you use the arp moly lube? I checked my studs three different times after multiple heat cycles and they never loosened at all. They have been reused before, so I wonder if that had any effect on them.



I've never checked mine but never blown a gasket out either, unless I've leaned the piss out of it and kept my foot planted, :eyebrows:



For those thing about a 50/ATP setup, it is certainly easy to put together. :thumb:

How is the exhaust flexing?

What did you paint the manifold with?

[Turbo224]

I've never checked mine but never blown a gasket out either, unless I've leaned the piss out of it and kept my foot planted, :eyebrows:



How is the exhaust flexing?

What did you paint the manifold with?

There is a flex pipe right in front of the cat. I think I used some spray paint called "stovebright" that is made for stoves and bbq's. It seems to be holding up pretty well back there.

[turbovanman²]

There is a flex pipe right in front of the cat. I think I used some spray paint called "stovebright" that is made for stoves and bbq's. It seems to be holding up pretty well back there.

I used some flexpipe too, works great, :nod:


Hmmmmmmmm, looks like nice paint, can you find out exactly, I wouldn't mind doing my exhaust around the external wastegate, :clap:

[Turbo224]

I used some flexpipe too, works great, :nod:


Hmmmmmmmm, looks like nice paint, can you find out exactly, I wouldn't mind doing my exhaust around the external wastegate, :clap:

I'll dig through the shop and see if I still have it.

[Ondonti]

They sell it at home depot/Lowes. I decided not to purchase any back in the day.

[Mario]

That turbo / downpipe setup is exactly what I'm running tyler.

[Turbo224]

They sell it at home depot/Lowes. I decided not to purchase any back in the day.

Last time I checked the Depot, they didn't carry it. I had to buy it at a stove/fireplace store. :confused:


That turbo / downpipe setup is exactly what I'm running tyler.

Nice. Its a good setup isn't it. About as close to a bolt on wg/downpipe as our cars are going to get.

[Xtrempickup]

my lesser flowing 54 trim t3/t4 stage 2 .63 a/r holds 27psi all the way to redline on an internal gate

[Turbo224]

my lesser flowing 54 trim t3/t4 stage 2 .63 a/r holds 27psi all the way to redline on an internal gate

Which wastegate can are you using?

[bansheenut420]

Few things...
1.Flex pipe works great on my car too.
2. Tylers 16.8 rocked! :rockon: Props. :p
3. Tyler needs to bring the RT by so we can see whats up with it. :nod:
4. My shelby held with your RT the day after the track. :confused: Somthing is leaking on your car for sure. The shelby is slow!
5. I think there are lots more 50 trim t3's out there. They are a good proven turbo on the t3.
6. :evil:
That is all. lol

[Turbo224]

Few things...
1.Flex pipe works great on my car too.
2. Tylers 16.8 rocked! :rockon: Props. :p
3. Tyler needs to bring the RT by so we can see whats up with it. :nod:
4. My shelby held with your RT the day after the track. :confused: Somthing is leaking on your car for sure. The shelby is slow!
5. I think there are lots more 50 trim t3's out there. They are a good proven turbo on the t3.
6. :evil:
That is all. lol

Oh yeah, something was clearly wrong. I had gone through all the ic piping and it was all in good shape, and the few vacuum lines that are left are in good shape. I added some springs to the wg it seems to have solved the problem. I certainly didn't need the track to tell me that it wasn't running right. It's back to spining tires at the top of 1st 2nd and 3rd gear, so the spring definitely did the trick. Now that im not driving it daily anymore, I can work on it. :) Oh, and as I suspected, after one trip to the track, my axles are starting to click. Good thing I didnt try your slicks!

[bansheenut420]

Springs FTW! lol I had to do that to the crap --- s70 to get it to hold 15psi. lol Glad those days are over. Now if anything, I have too much boost. lmfao You need to come take me for a ride Tyler. I havent been in your car since the hybrid.

[Turbo224]

Springs FTW! lol I had to do that to the crap --- s70 to get it to hold 15psi. lol Glad those days are over. Now if anything, I have too much boost. lmfao You need to come take me for a ride Tyler. I havent been in your car since the hybrid.

I think you have been in my car since the hybrid. Although I think it was during the break in period.

[bansheenut420]

lol Well, thats no fun. I want a ride like I took you on. :D

[Turbo224]

lol Well, thats no fun. I want a ride like I took you on. :D

Haha! I highly doubt riding in my slow --- car would even compare to yours!

[bansheenut420]

Haha! I highly doubt riding in my slow --- car would even compare to yours!

Cars that spin tires in 1st, 2nd and 3rd are NOT slow! We have similar mods, your car has tons of potential. It will be quick no matter what. Drive it like you stole it, the power is there. :evil:
Also, cars the sit on jackstands are slow as hell, so you have me beat there. :nod: lol

[Ondonti]

You didnt do anything at the track worthy of a broken axle except maybe wheel hop ;)

[Turbo224]

You didnt do anything at the track worthy of a broken axle except maybe wheel hop ;)

Thats what I thought, but I just thought it was strange that my original 100k axles started making noise the week after I took it to the track. I guess it's just their time to go.

[Ondonti]

Thats what I thought, but I just thought it was strange that my original 100k axles started making noise the week after I took it to the track. I guess it's just their time to go.

Mine have never made noises.
Even when I almost sheared one off after having the differential shimed wrong because I suck.

But I have never wheel hop'd in any sort of racing, only around town when I had a bad mount.
wheel hop destroys axles and sometimes worse :(