250 WHP using a stock Garrett

[anokabball24]

Building a T2 Omni, and 250 whp or 13.5xx in the quarter is my goal.

I want to save money and stick with my Garrett. What kind of psi am I going to be running, and will a stock Garrett get me there?

[BadAssPerformance]

Stock Garrett, 20psi 42pph injectors, 100 octane... this is on a T2 intercooled setup running '87 MP Stage 2 LM :D

EDIT: referencing my stock T2 motor Shadow 12.89@104.5mph

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7538

and http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/clone/clone.html

[anokabball24]

Wow, so there is hope. What kind of fuel pressure are you running?

[Keito]

My GLHT, 18 psi, MP +1mm ported head, +20's, ported exhaust mani, Spearco IC, gutted with slicks and skinny rears = 13.15
I remember Gary D going 12's in his full weight Daytona

[turbovanman]

Just remember one word-TUNING, ;)

[Marcus86GLHS]

"......What kind of psi am I going to be running, and will a stock Garrett get me there?......."

for a 13.5 in an Omni? my guess is you'd require far less than 250 whp, more like 190-200 whp, so 15 psi would probably do the trick.

[BadAssPerformance]

Wow, so there is hope. What kind of fuel pressure are you running?

Stock fuel pressure. Stock T2 fuel system other than injectors. Please note 100 octane.


Just remember one word-TUNING, ;)

Que? Hard to tune all stock and stock-ish parts? ;)

[GLHSKEN]

MP Stage II computer, 3 " exhaust, +20's, the rest stock... 12.85 @ 109.7 2600 lb GLHS.... (1.9X 60') 18 psi boost.

[anokabball24]

Wow, this isn't going to be that costly afterall.

A few things to sort out before I start working.

1. How many of you suggest buying a set of forged pistons? This car will be my daily driver for the next 2-4 years. Car will see 20 psi TOPS, no more.

2. What kind of calibration will I need to run with +20's more than 14.7 psi?

3. Why don't I see a 3-bar map listed from any of you? I thought this was essential for boost over 14.7 psi. Are you guys using bleeds or what?

[GLHSKEN]

For the power level you are looking at stock pistons do fine. As for over 14.7 psi... Zener diode to fool the map. Calibration... The glhs stage II is the best Ma Mopar ever came out with, it plays with a 2 bar map. You can get about 260whp out of the combo. You will spin the tires from a 60mph roll on..

I ran 12's for about $500 in parts (after learning the hard way). Fully reliable 30+ mpg on the highway.

[turbovanman]

Wow, this isn't going to be that costly afterall.



Yep, because your starting off with a light car, :mad: :thumb:

Forged, if you have the money, why not? If your like most TM'ers, you'll get bored and want to go faster, lol, but stockers are fine.

[anokabball24]

For the power level you are looking at stock pistons do fine. As for over 14.7 psi... Zener diode to fool the map. Calibration... The glhs stage II is the best Ma Mopar ever came out with, it plays with a 2 bar map. You can get about 260whp out of the combo. You will spin the tires from a 60mph roll on..

I ran 12's for about $500 in parts (after learning the hard way). Fully reliable 30+ mpg on the highway.

I have a GLHS Stage 2, and was running that in my car. However, I'm thinking about converting over to 88 electronics.

But if putting in the wiring harness from my donor '88 is a pain in the ---, I may just keep it an LM'd car...thoughts?

[1966 dart wagon]

Im currently running robs turbonator smec cal, computer controlled boost to 20psi, 40+s injectors walbro 255lph pump, stock ic, head, block, 6 puc tu clutch. a555, open 2.5 dp and 2.5 swingvalve. Car with me and a full tank of fuel is 2900lbs.

I raced a 350z(with my radials on) and 2 extra people approx 350-400lbs (around 3300lbs) more and beat him, the 350z ran a 13.8 at the track. Id like to get to the track but its all closed up for the year :mad:oh and Im running about 80%e85 rest is 93oct, im not running full e85 since my injectors cant keep up :(

[turbodaytona87]

For the power level you are looking at stock pistons do fine. As for over 14.7 psi... Zener diode to fool the map. Calibration... The glhs stage II is the best Ma Mopar ever came out with, it plays with a 2 bar map. You can get about 260whp out of the combo. You will spin the tires from a 60mph roll on..

I ran 12's for about $500 in parts (after learning the hard way). Fully reliable 30+ mpg on the highway.

Doing the Map diode is a ghetto way to raise the boost above 14.7. We have calibrations and maps at our disposal, why use a "hack" to do it?

[BadAssPerformance]

So you are saying that running more than 14.7psi w/o a 3-bar cal is a 'hack' way? Hmm... There are lots of fast 2.2L/2.5L turbo cars and 2.0L neon turbo cars (running n/a cals) that are 'hacked' then...

[jamesmonty]

They were " hacking" cars way before anyone was making anything. I think ken was just telling what he had when he ran that time. I don't think I would consider any of his stuff hacked.

[turbodaytona87]

So you are saying that running more than 14.7psi w/o a 3-bar cal is a 'hack' way? Hmm... There are lots of fast 2.2L/2.5L turbo cars and 2.0L neon turbo cars (running n/a cals) that are 'hacked' then...

I don't deny that, I'm just saying we have better ways now. Not saying anything about the quality of your setup but if this guy is asking how to get to 250whp, telling him to clamp the map is probably not the best way for him.

[anokabball24]

I don't deny that, I'm just saying we have better ways now. Not saying anything about the quality of your setup but if this guy is asking how to get to 250whp, telling him to clamp the map is probably not the best way for him.

I'm fully aware of my possibilities. I got a sweet deal on an MP GLHS Stage 2 and would like to run that for a while and see how the car handles 14.7+ with a diode.

Eventually I'll convert to '87 electros, sell the MP logic module, and run a stage 5 FWDP cal or something.

[BadAssPerformance]

As 'ghetto' as it is, I've run 27psi on the MP Stage 2, 2-bar (14.7psi) cal...

[anokabball24]

For those of you who run the MP GLHS Stage 2, I'd like to know what kind of fuel pressure you guys run.

I think I'm going to keep the boost at 15 psi, and see how the car runs, and then go from there. However, I'm going to be SUPER rich with the +20's. I'm thinking back the base fuel pressure down to 45 psi at idle...see what happens, and then go from there.

Also, when you turned the boost up over 15 psi, did you have to play with the fuel pressure or did you run it at stock? I would think the +20's at stock fuel pressure should be good up to 20 psi, no?

[boost geek]

I'm running a 3 bar now, but I think I will put the Stage 2 back in, with the 2 bar. I think the cal I have now is too aggresive, broke 2 stock pistons with it, never broke a piston before. With my stage 2 I would boost over 20 psi with a progressive alky kit, but the car would hit boost cutout just before the 1/4 mile finish line. With little traction I did 13.6 @ 104.5 . If someone wants to burn another cal for me, more of a swirl than a G head cal, I'll leave the 3 bar in.:eyebrows:

[turbovanman]

Doing the Map diode is a ghetto way to raise the boost above 14.7. We have calibrations and maps at our disposal, why use a "hack" to do it?

Nothing wrong with doing that and most over the counter cals are wrong anyhow and need fine tuning.

[BadAssPerformance]

For those of you who run the MP GLHS Stage 2, I'd like to know what kind of fuel pressure you guys run.

I think I'm going to keep the boost at 15 psi, and see how the car runs, and then go from there. However, I'm going to be SUPER rich with the +20's. I'm thinking back the base fuel pressure down to 45 psi at idle...see what happens, and then go from there.

Also, when you turned the boost up over 15 psi, did you have to play with the fuel pressure or did you run it at stock? I would think the +20's at stock fuel pressure should be good up to 20 psi, no?

I run stock fuel pressure with 42pph (20%) with the MP Stage 2... it can run rich at idle cuz it does not self-cal off the O2, but when you are driving, the O2 will control the fuel delivery quite well. :thumb:

[anokabball24]

Great, exactly what I wanted to hear. Can't wait, this is going to be fun!

[turbodaytona87]

Nothing wrong with doing that and most over the counter cals are wrong anyhow and need fine tuning.

thanks for proving the age-old adage: "Its all in the tuning." A 2-bar cal with terrible tuning would destroy pistons. Better to need fine tuning rather than to have the ecu not know what's going on at all.

[moparzrule]

For those of you who run the MP GLHS Stage 2, I'd like to know what kind of fuel pressure you guys run.

I think I'm going to keep the boost at 15 psi, and see how the car runs, and then go from there. However, I'm going to be SUPER rich with the +20's. I'm thinking back the base fuel pressure down to 45 psi at idle...see what happens, and then go from there.

Also, when you turned the boost up over 15 psi, did you have to play with the fuel pressure or did you run it at stock? I would think the +20's at stock fuel pressure should be good up to 20 psi, no?

Stock pressure works, although it's pretty rich at idle and sometimes stumbles. I'd say back it down to 50 PSI base pressure and you should be able to run 18-20 PSI on that and have slightly better idle quality.
When you are saying base pressure ''at idle'', thats worrying me. When you check the fuel pressure, ''base'' means without the vacuum line hooked up. It shouldn't matter whether it's idling or not, base is base.

You can do 12's in an L body with the stock garrett no problems at all. Just get some slicks for decent traction.
BTW, what trans are you running? If still the stock 525 I'd suggest trailering the car to the track!

[anokabball24]

moparzrule -

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse base pressure with idle pressure. I meant at idle.

I'm running an A555. Nothing to worry about. :)

[boost geek]

I ran 28 psi base fuel pressure with +40's, always passed emmisions.

[moparzrule]

I ran 28 psi base fuel pressure with +40's, always passed emmisions.

Yeah, because ~23-25 PSI is the same as stock injectors. Just a couple PSI more on +40's is not nearly the same as +20's with stock pressure.

[BadAssPerformance]

Some guys have had issues with injectors bleeding (not sealing) at sub-30psi pressures... there is some minimum pressure required to keep them closed.

[GLHSKEN]

Doing the Map diode is a ghetto way to raise the boost above 14.7. We have calibrations and maps at our disposal, why use a "hack" to do it?

Because it works.... As posted... The Stage II cal with +20's will let you run all the boost a stock turbo can throw at it....

BTW, this was done BEFORE all the custom 3 bar cals were available in 2002....

I'll run the same set-up on my son's 87 GLHS when it's finished... (no way I'm providing more than 270+ whp to him... )

[GLHSKEN]

I don't deny that, I'm just saying we have better ways now. Not saying anything about the quality of your setup but if this guy is asking how to get to 250whp, telling him to clamp the map is probably not the best way for him.

With a Stage II computer IT IS the BEST way to do things on the cheap...

ANAK... the stage II with +20's will get you better than 30mpg on the highway...

It will not be too rich. That computer can handle +20's with stock fuel pressure all day long... Even with colder plugs. Idle quality is NOT an issue... The car will Idle better than a stock cal....

[badandy]

With a Stage II computer IT IS the BEST way to do things on the cheap...

ANAK... the stage II with +20's will get you better than 30mpg on the highway...

It will not be too rich. That computer can handle +20's with stock fuel pressure all day long... Even with colder plugs. Idle quality is NOT an issue... The car will Idle better than a stock cal....

My 87 Shelby Z with MP stage II and +20's, turbo bleed, stock turbo, crimp bent 2.5 exhaust, no converter, 180 thermo, underdrive pulley, good wires, step cold plugs was to this day the best combo per dollar spent that I have owned in almost 20 years with these cars.

If I remember correctly that car trapped 104 mph on 15lbs. boost...2nd gear was useless third gear would roll the tires fairly good too!...this was before zeners and g-valves btw

....ahhh, those were the days! :love: if you want to have LOTS of fun with little hassle this is definately the way to go!

[turbovanman]

Some guys have had issues with injectors bleeding (not sealing) at sub-30psi pressures... there is some minimum pressure required to keep them closed.

Base pressure has nothing to do with the injectors sealing, you probably mean spray pattern. I've tested them to 25 psi and the spray pattern was still good.

[BadAssPerformance]

Base pressure has nothing to do with the injectors sealing, you probably mean spray pattern. I've tested them to 25 psi and the spray pattern was still good.

I've just heard of them running like crap at ~25psi

[moparzrule]

I've just heard of them running like crap at ~25psi


I've done ~27 PSI wiht +40's on a stock ECU. Seemed to run fine.

[GLHSKEN]

^^^^ +1

[Pat]

Definitely stick with the stage II cal. Half the people out there using custom cals are not as happy. My GLHS was set up just like Ken's car and went 12.8. Threw a big intercooler on it and went 12.5...all on the Stage II cal.

I think (been a few years) I was running around stock fuel pressure when I was using the +20's and had no issues at all.

[iTurbo]

I've had great results running +20s at stock fuel pressure on stock calibrations. In my experience the computer has no trouble at all with them and no idle problems, MPG is just as good too. As long as it goes into O2 feedback at idle and cruise you should be fine. The 'problem' you might run into is that it will run way richer at WOT because the computer does not use the O2 sensor at WOT. You can compensate for this by turning down the fuel pressure, or turning up the boost. On my Shelby Lancer, I was running 19-20 psi boost with a stockish TII setup with 3" exhaust, +20s, and an adjustable zener. Spinning the tires in 3rd gear was fun for a while, but the car ended up spinning a rod bearing racing a modded GTI. As far as I could tell, I had enough fuel, but 91 octane was not sufficient for the level of boost.

[Aries_Turbo]

k car, 2.5L stock head, 92 tbi cam (had it laying around), stock manifolds, +40's, 3 bar, my own calibration (28-30 part highway flying, part backroad, part city/hammering, 35-39 highway), stock turbo with a .63 exhaust housing and 3" turboback exhaust. 18psi, 13.1 @ 104.

Brian

[gti_7]

k car, 2.5L stock head, 92 tbi cam (had it laying around), stock manifolds, +40's, 3 bar, my own calibration (28-30 part highway flying, part backroad, part city/hammering, 35-39 highway), stock turbo with a .63 exhaust housing and 3" turboback exhaust. 18psi, 13.1 @ 104.

Brian

nice and simple but effective setup,:nod: How did you like the stock turbo with a .63 exhaust housing? I am thinking of doing this to a stocker i have lying around. Would a .63 housing compliment an Taft S2 cam?

bernie

[Aries_Turbo]

it moves the powerband up. spools a little slower. lower gears, 20psi ~2800-3k. higher gears, ~2500 full spool.

it seems to free up some power though. i can run a 13.9 with 13psi boost.

i need to retard the cam a little and/or try a 88 TBI cam. my last 1/8th mile only gains like 21mph on a good day. usually its only 19. i could use taller slicks or trans. the 2.5L doesnt like to rv through the traps.

Brian

[Vigo]

offset keys are cheap.

.63 housing not that cheap :(

[turbovanman]

. the 2.5L doesnt like to rv through the traps.

Brian

Get a 2 piece intake, :thumb:


offset keys are cheap.

.63 housing not that cheap :(

Adjustable cam gear a much better buy than keys, :D

[Vigo]

true unless you already know what you want and are spending your money on something else :)

brian's car has been together in mostly the same setup for years so i dont know if he plans on getting back into all the time and tuning finding the 'best' setting v.s. just throwing in a key and patching up the tune a tiny bit. to each his own, but yeh the gear is fairly cheap too.

[Aries_Turbo]

i have the offset keys. they have been in my dresser drawer for years lol.

plus i have a 16v head and a borg warner s200 sitting on my porch. :) who know what will happen first with me. :)

Brian

[moparzrule]

Get a 2 piece intake, :thumb:

Heh, more like ''get a 16v head'' right simon? I could not get my 8 valve 2.5L to have power past 6000 RPM. 2.2L with the same top end that was on the 2.5.....7200 without breaking a sweet, could go more cuz it's still pulling some but thats where I set the rev limit cuz I have stock lifters :nod:

[Vigo]

but then nobody ever retards the cam timing on a 2.5 either. heh.

[turbovanman]

Heh, more like ''get a 16v head'' right simon? I could not get my 8 valve 2.5L to have power past 6000 RPM. 2.2L with the same top end that was on the 2.5.....7200 without breaking a sweet, could go more cuz it's still pulling some but thats where I set the rev limit cuz I have stock lifters :nod:

Mine would make power to 6500, Shelgame was a bit puzzled about that, lol!

[moparzrule]

but then nobody ever retards the cam timing on a 2.5 either. heh.

Well I thought about it, but with a G headed 2.5L the EGT's were already outrageous, couldn't get them below 1600.

Besides, I had the block decked and the head surfaced so I should have been ~2 degree's retarded on the cam timing.