Need opinions on Ebay Water to air IC.

[Tony Hanna]

I'm going to be running a water to air IC in the Spirit. What I'd really like to do is find an IC that will fit mounted vertically in the area where the stock airbox would normally go and keep the plumbing to as much of a straight shot as possible from the turbo to the IC and the IC to the TB.
I'm looking at something like this:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Air-To-Water-Liquid-Racing-Intercooler-Turbo-4-5-THICK_W0QQitemZ190254152037QQihZ009QQcategoryZ3374 2QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I'd like to get some opinions before I buy it though.

Thanks,

Tony

Edit: Shooting for an approximately 300whp daily driver and if anybody has concerns about that cooler not being up to the task, I'd like to hear them as well.:)

[Tony Hanna]

:bump2:

I find it hard to believe that nobody on here has an opinion or some knowledge to share.:confused2: Anybody!!??:)

[Darkwolf]

I have an opinion. Hurry the hell up! I want to do the same thing to the van and once you do it mine should be easy :).

[CSXRT4]

I believe its a frozenboost.com intercooler

I also bought one but havnt been able to test it out yet. Quality seems alright, I filled it with water and it didnt leak but I havnt been able to pressure test it yet

[Tony Hanna]

I have an opinion. Hurry the hell up! I want to do the same thing to the van and once you do it mine should be easy :).

That's cool. I can do all the testing and get those pesky hurt pistons out of the way before you try it.:lol:


I believe its a frozenboost.com intercooler

I also bought one but havnt been able to test it out yet. Quality seems alright, I filled it with water and it didnt leak but I havnt been able to pressure test it yet

Going by the size, does it look like it will fit vertically beside the head? I'd like to mount one like that (maybe even weld some tabs on it and bolt it to the stock airbox bracket somehow) and hopefully still have enough room to run the plumbing for a CAI around it. It's a real pain trying to visualize this without having the car here to look at and take measurements.:(

Thanks,
Tony

[zin]

OK, I'll bite!

IMO, a liq to air cooler is only good for an application that you cannot fit a big enough air to air cooler,that's mostly because of the added equipment needed to use it and the additional possibility of a failure due to the added stuff (pump stops, coolant leaks out, leaks into the engine, plumbing, heat exchanger...).

BUT, they can work bitchn and short of a nitrous/CO2 cooler, the only way you'll be getting lower than outside air temps (if you add a reservoir that you can put ice in...).

My other concern is what does is flow and at what depression? Will it be a restriction in your system @ the pressure you want to run? If not, roll the dice and takes your chances, you'll likely have more in the peripheral stuff than the cooler itself! If it were just a drag only kind of thing, I'd get it, hook up a fairly large Nitrous Solenoid and flow nitrous/CO2 through it, that would SERIOUSLY cool the air!! But, at the same time that might just freak your tune... Anyway, there my .02!

Mike

[CSXRT4]

Going by the size, does it look like it will fit vertically beside the head? I'd like to mount one like that (maybe even weld some tabs on it and bolt it to the stock airbox bracket somehow) and hopefully still have enough room to run the plumbing for a CAI around it. It's a real pain trying to visualize this without having the car here to look at and take measurements.:(

Thanks,
Tony

I have this one http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=218&products_id=204&osCsid=12f974af54edde33a035915f1081a205

With the SRT-4 engine in my CSX-T it just barely fits beside the head on top of the transmission. The brake booster is just slightly in the way, and I have mine tilted slightly to lower its vertical profile. Ill see if I can take a quick pic of it tomorrow when im working on it :thumb:

[Tony Hanna]

OK, I'll bite!

IMO, a liq to air cooler is only good for an application that you cannot fit a big enough air to air cooler,that's mostly because of the added equipment needed to use it and the additional possibility of a failure due to the added stuff (pump stops, coolant leaks out, leaks into the engine, plumbing, heat exchanger...).

BUT, they can work bitchn and short of a nitrous/CO2 cooler, the only way you'll be getting lower than outside air temps (if you add a reservoir that you can put ice in...).

My other concern is what does is flow and at what depression? Will it be a restriction in your system @ the pressure you want to run? If not, roll the dice and takes your chances, you'll likely have more in the peripheral stuff than the cooler itself! If it were just a drag only kind of thing, I'd get it, hook up a fairly large Nitrous Solenoid and flow nitrous/CO2 through it, that would SERIOUSLY cool the air!! But, at the same time that might just freak your tune... Anyway, there my .02!

Mike

Thanks Mike!
My main reason for wanting to go air to water is to keep the AC without having to go through the ordeal of routing the pipes for a front mount. I went through that with the Sundance and routing the plumbing with the condenser still in place was a whole big bag of not much fun and the results were considerably less than pleasing to the eye. It looks like there are plenty of places to pass a couple 1/2" water lines through though.:thumb:

Anyhow, the plan is to mount the IC as previously mentioned, plumb it to a reservoir, a pump, and a second AC condenser mounted in front of the existing condenser. Hopefully a condenser will serve as a passable heat exchanger. Our stockers are a 4 tube design with loads of surface area.

The way I figure it, I'm not in boost for very long at a time so as long the system has enough capacity to absorb the heat, it should have plenty of time to shed it when the engine is running at part/no throttle. Does this sound reasonable?

As to cost: Since I'm going with a junkyard condenser as a heat exchanger, that won't be too bad. I'll probably source the reservoir from a junkyard as well or fab something out of aluminum. I'm undecided about the pump though. I've seen some people using 500 gph Rule bait well pumps. This is appealing because of the low cost and easy availability of a replacement. On the other hand, I can get a stock pump for the Ford water/air systems for around $90 off Ebay. That just leaves hose, clamps, and misc. electrical stuff to get the pump up and running. Might add a slimline pusher fan too...
So yeah, it'll be costly but not too bad. Hopefully it'll be easy enough to install and clean looking to make it worth the extra cost.

I just need to figure out if the IC I'm looking at will perform reasonably well and fit the way I'd like it to.:)

Tony

[Tony Hanna]

I have this one http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=218&products_id=204&osCsid=12f974af54edde33a035915f1081a205

With the SRT-4 engine in my CSX-T it just barely fits beside the head on top of the transmission. The brake booster is just slightly in the way, and I have mine tilted slightly to lower its vertical profile. Ill see if I can take a quick pic of it tomorrow when im working on it :thumb:

Thanks!

[WLKivett]

http://boostedmopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11412

Here is a write up of a air to water install.

[thefitisgay]

i want to go water to air just for the sleepr aspect.... people see a big front mount and they scare away but i wanted to put mine in the same spot... the one guy on here did one in his i think it was a red shadow and he said that the IC gets so cold it has condensation on it but he was runnin a pretty nice sized rad for it

imo its worth a try but the extra parts seems expensive (coolant rad and all that)

[minigts]

So really if you were a good welder, you could just cover an air to air, seal it up and put some threaded holes on either end to create a water to air intercooler. That would be neat for someone to do who had time and a welder to do so. :)

[JuXsA]

I had one and sold it a few months ago to a forum member. i forgot who I sold it to. I just didn't want to have that on my DD because all it does is give me more parts to break. Your setting it up the same way I was though. They are pretty cool and they look like they will work well. Best bet is to buy the water pump from a ford lightning and use that. For a heat exchanger, I was going for either an a/c condenser or a large transmission cooler. Make sure on your res the hole in it is large enough to put a chunk of dry ice in it.

[Tony Hanna]

http://boostedmopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11412

Here is a write up of a air to water install.

Thanks, I'll check it out.


i want to go water to air just for the sleepr aspect.... people see a big front mount and they scare away but i wanted to put mine in the same spot... the one guy on here did one in his i think it was a red shadow and he said that the IC gets so cold it has condensation on it but he was runnin a pretty nice sized rad for it

imo its worth a try but the extra parts seems expensive (coolant rad and all that)

I haven't street raced anybody in a long time, and don't really go looking for races anymore, so stealth isn't so much an issue for me. I just want the install to look clean, like it belongs there. If I can get it looking like that and it works well, I won't mind spending the extra money.


So really if you were a good welder, you could just cover an air to air, seal it up and put some threaded holes on either end to create a water to air intercooler. That would be neat for someone to do who had time and a welder to do so. :)

If you believe the marketing hype, A/A and W/A cores are made differently. How much different and what kind of real-world effect the difference has is anybody's guess... If I had a tig machine, I'd certainly give it a shot though.:)

[Tony Hanna]

I had one and sold it a few months ago to a forum member. i forgot who I sold it to. I just didn't want to have that on my DD because all it does is give me more parts to break. Your setting it up the same way I was though. They are pretty cool and they look like they will work well. Best bet is to buy the water pump from a ford lightning and use that. For a heat exchanger, I was going for either an a/c condenser or a large transmission cooler. Make sure on your res the hole in it is large enough to put a chunk of dry ice in it.

I remember seeing where you were selling yours. I hadn't completely made my mind up at that point or I probably would have tried to buy it.:nod:

[minigts]

Yeah I was looking at a couple of the pictures posted on those sites, and what is different? It looks exactly like the one I have, only the outer part is covered and has water going through it. If both are sealed where the air travels, what is REALLY different in the design other than sealing up the outside of the cooler on the fins to hold water? Man, if I had the time and money I would do it. :)

[Mopar318]

Thanks, I'll check it out.



I haven't street raced anybody in a long time, and don't really go looking for races anymore, so stealth isn't so much an issue for me. I just want the install to look clean, like it belongs there. If I can get it looking like that and it works well, I won't mind spending the extra money.



If you believe the marketing hype, A/A and W/A cores are made differently. How much different and what kind of real-world effect the difference has is anybody's guess... If I had a tig machine, I'd certainly give it a shot though.:)

I have a tig machine, but after you see the cost of aluminum, wire, gas, and electricity you wont want to try it.

Im doing a A-W in the daytona some time soon here, and will sell my evo front mount setup. I aquired a few titanium coolers from aircraft at work. I will run the water through the cooler, then through the coolers, which will be set in ice boxes.

[Tony Hanna]

I have a tig machine, but after you see the cost of aluminum, wire, gas, and electricity you wont want to try it.

Im doing a A-W in the daytona some time soon here, and will sell my evo front mount setup. I aquired a few titanium coolers from aircraft at work. I will run the water through the cooler, then through the coolers, which will be set in ice boxes.

If I don't get too greedy, I can get small to medium size pieces of aluminum plate of varying thickness for free, some tubing too. All scrap and leftovers of course, but I'm not picky.:) I've got access to everything I need to mig aluminum (argon, wire, etc), but I figured tig would be the way to go on something like that.:)

I really like the ice box idea for a drag car. Mine's going to be seeing mostly street duty though so I'll be happy if I can get FMIC-like performance out of it. Still, if there's room...:D

[johnl]

Get it. Good price.

For your radiator, check out motorcycle radiators, especially the ones that come on dirt bikes - the kind with one on each side of the bike; they are narrow and vertical. There is a variety of sizes so you might find one that will work AND they come with a cap!


AS welding up a home built from an A/A:
Look at a heater core's fins, now look at a radiator's fins, now look at an A/A IC's fins.

The design of heat exchangers IS a science and they DO have stuff figured out, such as the optimum fin count for the hot side and alternately the optimum fin count for the cooling side AND the optimum rate of your hot air over the hot side fins at that count and similarly the optimum rate of coolant flow over that same fin count on the cooling side.

Now, double that stuff, why? because you are working with two heat exchangers! The A/W IC and then the radiator.

[ShadowFromHell]

I bought one a few years ago when that model first came out. I paid 250 or so for it.... I tried everything to get it to fit in my shadow and it took me a while to get it all figured out. They are harder to mount then expected.

But my question is, if you do mount it in the on top of the tranny, wouldn't it only be filling it half full of water? With to hole in the top side, it isnt going to bleed the air of of it... That was my concern anyways.

[ShadowFromHell]

BTW, I never did get my shadow going again (still have it thou!) but still have the IC and plan on using it in a 2.4 rampage.

[zin]

Get it. Good price.

For your radiator, check out motorcycle radiators, especially the ones that come on dirt bikes - the kind with one on each side of the bike; they are narrow and vertical. There is a variety of sizes so you might find one that will work AND they come with a cap!

Another possibility for a heat exchanger, are oil coolers. Earl's and Setrab sell some very efficient units and they have a large number of configurations and you can get just about any inlet/outlet sizes you want, AN, NPT, etc. Setrab even has a few that come with SPAL fans installed on them. I used to sell those to the Hot Rod guys that didn't have a spot to mount them with good air flow (or just didn't want them to be seen). Even new they aren't too expensive. A couple of places to get them would be TMR in Orange, CA or Earl's Race Store #1 in Lawndale, CA (my old store).

Mike

[Tony Hanna]

Get it. Good price.

For your radiator, check out motorcycle radiators, especially the ones that come on dirt bikes - the kind with one on each side of the bike; they are narrow and vertical. There is a variety of sizes so you might find one that will work AND they come with a cap!


AS welding up a home built from an A/A:
Look at a heater core's fins, now look at a radiator's fins, now look at an A/A IC's fins.

The design of heat exchangers IS a science and they DO have stuff figured out, such as the optimum fin count for the hot side and alternately the optimum fin count for the cooling side AND the optimum rate of your hot air over the hot side fins at that count and similarly the optimum rate of coolant flow over that same fin count on the cooling side.

Now, double that stuff, why? because you are working with two heat exchangers! The A/W IC and then the radiator.

I'd really like to try out an AC condenser as a heat exchanger just to see how well it would work. Though there are some wicked deals on aluminum honda radiators on ebay. Another possibility would be a N/A Omni radiator. They're small enough to mount easily and are a 2 pass design that would probably cool pretty well. Plenty of options, though I'd say you're right and I'd be ahead to go with something designed for water/antifreeze in the first place.


I bought one a few years ago when that model first came out. I paid 250 or so for it.... I tried everything to get it to fit in my shadow and it took me a while to get it all figured out. They are harder to mount then expected.

But my question is, if you do mount it in the on top of the tranny, wouldn't it only be filling it half full of water? With to hole in the top side, it isnt going to bleed the air of of it... That was my concern anyways.

I thought about that as well. The plan is to drill a hole in the highest part of the system and tap it for an NPT plug. That way I can loosen the plug to bleed the air out.:)


Another possibility for a heat exchanger, are oil coolers. Earl's and Setrab sell some very efficient units and they have a large number of configurations and you can get just about any inlet/outlet sizes you want, AN, NPT, etc. Setrab even has a few that come with SPAL fans installed on them. I used to sell those to the Hot Rod guys that didn't have a spot to mount them with good air flow (or just didn't want them to be seen). Even new they aren't too expensive. A couple of places to get them would be TMR in Orange, CA or Earl's Race Store #1 in Lawndale, CA (my old store).

Mike

That sounds like a good option, possibly a little higher in price than some of the alternatives though. The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning toward johnl's suggestion to stick with a heat exchanger that's designed for use with water/antifreeze. At least then I know it's been engineered specifically to work with the coolant I'll be using. Plus if I use a radiator with tanks and a cap, I can probably skip the external reservoir all together and just run an expansion tank.:) Might make for a little cleaner packaging...


Thanks for all the suggestions guys! I'm starting to feel like I've got a pretty good shot at putting something together that will work well.:nod:

Tony

[CSXRT4]

Heres some pics of mine. If your running an 8valve it will be a bit different because of the intake obviously. That boostedmopar.com link has some good pics of an 8valve engine with one of these intercoolers.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3629/71484298qp9.jpg
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9652/56384673iu8.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8708/63263793ul1.jpg

[Tony Hanna]

Wow! That is a touch on the tight side. I'm getting ready to head up to work on the car now, so I'll try to remember to take some measurements while I'm up there. It might be that I need to go with the smaller one to get it to fit well, or maybe relocate the battery and try to lay the intercooler flat where the stock battery box is...

Thanks for the pics!

Tony

[Mopar318]

When I do mine, Im buying the bare core, and making my own tanks. Thats the best way to do it.

[Darkwolf]

after looking around on e-bay the motorcycle/atv radiators are looking pretty good.
looks like I could (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_ATV-Parts-Accessories__2008-Suzuki-Ltz-400-Radiator_W0QQitemZ180294360296QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20 AccessoriesQQadnZATVQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQ ddiZ2811QQadiZ2869QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item18029436 0296&_trkparms=39%3A1|65%3A1|240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245) shove that whole thing in front of my radiator in the van and it comes with everything cheap well maybe cheap ;).

[ShadowFromHell]

Thats what I was thinking to, but Im scared to drill it! lol. I think when it comes time to mount it, if I do go that wrought I will just drill the hole, and then weld on a peice that already has been drilled and tapped.

[thefitisgay]

i think a rad from a triumph would work best cuz my buddie's rad on his had the inlet/outlet right next to eacher other pointing the same direction and they are smaller like closer to heater core hose...

but it is prolly smaller

[thefitisgay]

I haven't street raced anybody in a long time, and don't really go looking for races anymore, so stealth isn't so much an issue for me. I just want the install to look clean, like it belongs there. If I can get it looking like that and it works well, I won't mind spending the extra money.


sleeper doenst just pertain to street racing... for example if i were to put a huge FMIC on my car id be worried someone would tear the friggen thing out to scrap it...

[Tony Hanna]

after looking around on e-bay the motorcycle/atv radiators are looking pretty good.
looks like I could (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_ATV-Parts-Accessories__2008-Suzuki-Ltz-400-Radiator_W0QQitemZ180294360296QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20 AccessoriesQQadnZATVQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQ ddiZ2811QQadiZ2869QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item18029436 0296&_trkparms=39%3A1|65%3A1|240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245) shove that whole thing in front of my radiator in the van and it comes with everything cheap well maybe cheap ;).

That does look like a decent setup. Everything in one convenient package. After looking at the Spirit this weekend, it looks like I'll probably be relocating the battery and laying the IC flat where the battery was. I might be able to make it fit over the trans, but it'll be really tight.


sleeper doenst just pertain to street racing... for example if i were to put a huge FMIC on my car id be worried someone would tear the friggen thing out to scrap it...

That's true, though you could always make a FMIC a little less noticeable with some black paint.:) I guess I'm lucky to live in an area where I don't have to worry too much about something like that happening.

[t3rse]

Get one as big as you can and see if you can get pics of the fins. There are a few poor designs out there. The one have I looks pretty good and held pressure up to 25#, which is where the pressure tester I was using shot out and put a hole in the dry wall, for quite a few minutes. I'm using a Cannondale ATV radiator, but the car isn't running yet so nothing else to add but 2.5 in and 3.0 out with 3.5 in and outs on the end tanks, about 24x14x4. It didn't have mounting bosses on it so I had some tabs welded on the ends and made a brace to mount where the hvac was. The charge pipes run through the wiper tray.

[Tony Hanna]

I might be able to get one a little bigger than originally planned if I do end up moving the battery and mounting it there. What should I look for to avoid a poor design? I know one of the places selling them mentioned people using air to air cores in water to air IC's and said they didn't work well.

Thanks,
Tony

[thefitisgay]

That's true, though you could always make a FMIC a little less noticeable with some black paint.:) I guess I'm lucky to live in an area where I don't have to worry too much about something like that happening.

it used to be so nice here... then it just turned into suck town kinda makes me wanna cry and at the same time build TALL barwired fences with cams on the corners around my neighbors empty lot after i buy it but somehow i feel thats a little extreme and i have a feeling the neighbors wouldnt like the fences :confused:

but the one person said that it was hype that an air IC will work just as good as a radiator if you put water through it... lookit how thin the tubes are on the radiator on your car... and look how big they are on an IC personally i feel if thicker tubes would work just as good theyd do that instead or at least sometimes

also what if you had a custom plenum made with the ic somehow tucked nice and neat next to it and just welded on.... i think it would be best since the IC with the cold water would leach heat out of the rest of the plenum

[Tony Hanna]

That is a neat idea, and I think some of the A/W supercharged (roots type) setups are actually done like that where the IC is part of the intake system bolted between the SC and the manifold. A neat trick would be to fab an A/W core into the plenum itself. Obviously the plenum would have to be designed for it, to keep the proper volume even with the core inside it, and keep airflow reasonably balanced between cylinders. It sure would free up some space if somebody could make it work though.

[thefitisgay]

i was thinking of that as i was typing maybe if we curved it foraward and laid it over the vavle cover?or just took a small ic and cut the end tank off and welded that to the runners?

i wanna try it... i think it would work nice with a huge bitchin hood scoop and im half way there

wooo hooo how much you think you cheapos would cough up for one tho??? hahaha :p

if one comes out before i make mine ill give up 20 dolla for it!! lol

[Tony Hanna]

i was thinking of that as i was typing maybe if we curved it foraward and laid it over the vavle cover?or just took a small ic and cut the end tank off and welded that to the runners?

i wanna try it... i think it would work nice with a huge bitchin hood scoop and im half way there

wooo hooo how much you think you cheapos would cough up for one tho??? hahaha :p

if one comes out before i make mine ill give up 20 dolla for it!! lol

Lol, I think the cheapos (myself included :o) would benefit more from a detailed write-up with pictures so we could build them ourselves.:lol:
Though I bet you could sell a few to people that don't have the time/equipment to build their own if they were proven to work well with some testing and dyno time.:nod:

Hmm... An over the VC setup could work well. The only thing I could think of is that it would have to be a 2 piece bolt-together/gasket affair that could be disassembled easily for access to the VC and fuel rail.:)

Tony

[thefitisgay]

thats exactly what i was thinking!! man we should be buisness partners lol maybe if i made pretty much a big box kinda like the stock 1 peice im concerned with flow characteristics tho (have a stong feeling it should be like all rounded with no sharp corners inside so i guess just put the TB in front of the IC or... ooooo run 4 haha but i think at this point i should be just cutting flanges off intakes and making full custom ones


and dont be embarrised about not wanting to spend money thats the only reason i have this car and all these crazy ideas

can anyone point me towards the right plenum size?

[Tony Hanna]

thats exactly what i was thinking!! man we should be buisness partners lol maybe if i made pretty much a big box kinda like the stock 1 peice im concerned with flow characteristics tho (have a stong feeling it should be like all rounded with no sharp corners inside so i guess just put the TB in front of the IC or... ooooo run 4 haha but i think at this point i should be just cutting flanges off intakes and making full custom ones


and dont be embarrised about not wanting to spend money thats the only reason i have this car and all these crazy ideas

can anyone point me towards the right plenum size?

I think I remember reading somewhere that plenum volume should = the engine's displacement in a street car and 1.5 x the displacement in a race car, so a 2.5 liter plenum for a 2.5 liter street engine.

The trick is going to be finding out how much of that volume your core is going to take up. Then you can add that to your plenum size to see how much bigger it needs to be to make up for the core being in there.:)

[thefitisgay]

volume? thats easy dude just fill it with water then measure the water if i can do that tho

so i need to get somehting between 2.2 and 3.3 (im runnin a 2.2 right now but might go to a 2.5)

i guess its time i get one of these ebay a/w ICs