turbo grand prix

[ottawa rogue]

does anyone remember these?
a guy i work with has one in red, it looks to be a pretty nice car.
still, it's a W-body GM, and after the hate/hate relationship i had with my wife's lumina, i wouldn't own it:yuck:

[cordes]

I saw one on the freeway once.

[ottawa rogue]

it's a decent car, he just put the engine back together after melting a piston.
i think he put a gt2870 on it while he had it apart too. it's pretty quick for a W-body

[cordes]

it's a decent car, he just put the engine back together after melting a piston.
i think he put a gt2870 on it while he had it apart too. it's pretty quick for a W-body

I've heard that they are rather quick, but I don't have much experience with them obviously. It would be kind of cool to see one in person.

[black86glhs]

They are pretty good for a Grand Prix. To make any serious power, it needs pistons and rods. But for when it came out, it was a runner.

[turbovanman²]

Turbosedan on here owns one or maybe he sold it.

I love W bodies, apart from the rear disc issues, they are a solid car. Oh, the 3.4 DOHC engine is a piece of sh*t.

[bradp]

Turbosedan on here owns one or maybe he sold it.

I love W bodies, apart from the rear disc issues, they are a solid car. Oh, the 3.4 DOHC engine is a piece of sh*t.

No doubt the 3.4 Twin Dual Cam is total $hit!!!

ZIN on here's stepmom had one new. I like those a lot, but they have their issues, mostly ABS and brake problems.

[ottawa rogue]

ya know, the rear disc issues were the least of the problems on the W-body we used to have, i hated that car.i had a lot of wiring issues with it, and the infamous 3.1 intake leak, and the TCC solenoid, and the demonically possesed AC, and the ............
needless to say, that car has ruined all w-bodies for me.
did i mention that i @#$#&$^% hated that car?

[2.216VTurbo]

Just curious BradP and Simon, whats the problem with the 3.4? I only ask because while I was pulling out the 284 5 speed trans to use as parts for the only other production car to get this trans:eyebrows::evil:, I tooka hard look at the cylinder heads. Nice size ports, decent looking valvetrain, overall I was impressed with the design. They gotta be the higest flowing 6 cyl heads GM has ever made right? However having 5 camshafts and that looong chain has gotta have it's problems...

[cordes]

Just curious BradP and Simon, whats the problem with the 3.4? I only ask because while I was pulling out the 284 5 speed trans to use as parts for the only other production car to get this trans:eyebrows::evil:, I tooka hard look at the cylinder heads. Nice size ports, decent looking valvetrain, overall I was impressed with the design. They gotta be the higest flowing 6 cyl heads GM has ever made right? However having 5 camshafts and that looong chain has gotta have it's problems...

Wait, are you saying that I can get a 284 out of a grand prix that will bolt right up? Or will I have to take the guts out and put them in a TM 284 case?

[Vigo]

good question because i was under the impression you couldnt open a 284 case or something crazy like that.

The 3.4 was a PITA to work on and a really awkward design. similar to the dodge 3.5 in that they took their ohv block (dodge 3.3, chevy 3.1) and modified it for ohc heads. difference is on the chevy they did it in a ridiculous way, without changing the block much if any... the dodge 3.5 on the other hand is imo an excellent design. think of the 3.4 as a Quad4 with more cylinders.. highwinding with good stock power and potential but full of anything problems.

anyway, the 3.4 has a LOT of power potential because of the heads, but they only stuck them in heavy cars and it takes a lot of effort to get the power out. even so, they were quick as new.. rare 5 speed cars were deep in the 15s stock, and some autos hit 15s too, on 3300+lb cars. i would say their best prospects are as a swap for something else. theres a 3.4 fiero website somewhere that posted good results.

[black86glhs]

The main problems were....
1) the intake gaskets, plenum gaskets
2) Some needed a newer injector set(due to a stalling condition...TSB for that)
3) the timing belt and idler pulleys needed to be made stronger(60K miles and the teeth stripped)

I actually like the fact that they kept the timing chain on the lower end(like a normal 3.1). However trying to get to the back cam sprockets is a joy. These things were one of the first to use the low tension style(crap) gaskets and they all got sucked in. Once you replace them, many issues go away.
As for the 284, any W body that has it can be used in any W body. Obviously, if it was an auto car, changes need to be made. The Olds Cutlass Supremes with them(3.4 & 284) were pretty nice rides.

[2.216VTurbo]

Wait, are you saying that I can get a 284 out of a grand prix that will bolt right up? Or will I have to take the guts out and put them in a TM 284 case?


Guts only, case is waaay different, hydraulic clutch too. If you can get a 284 back together again after dissasembly, you're a better trans guy than me:o No F'in way man:mad: Just the shift rail assy has 6 springs and 8 ballbearings that need to be held in place under tension (prolly a jig for it?) before inserting into the housing. The TC Masi 284 trans may be rated to 475lbs ft of torque but it's a complicated beast inside compared to our 5 series transmissions.

[black86glhs]

I forgot the TC used them for a little while. Come on, the rail assembly is easy. Damn Dodge people whining about how hard or complicated something is......:blah:
Just Kidding, they suck to rebuild without the tools.:mad:

[iTurbo]

My brother used a 282 manual trans in his 3.1L turbo Cutlass. Still going strong and that car was pulling some serious torque.

I've seen a few 3.4L DOHC cars at a dyno event. They were pulling around 180 WHP with minor bolt-ons. There was also a guy here in town with a turbo 3.4 conversion in his Monte Carlo...that thing was a beast but he always had issues with the auto trans.

[Vigo]

luckily the GTP crowd has paved the way for the less popular cars by financing the r&d on 4t60 upgrades. It can be built if the money is there.

With how proven our 5-spds are, i'd think a 284 is a pretty pointless swap. if i came across a good 3.4/5spd car, id sell the 5-spd swap parts to someone who cares and use that to buy a good 555 and a moly plate or something like that.

[WickedShelby88]

I saw one of these for sale once and only once at a used car lot next to the shop I used to work at. It was black with gold trim. Very nice looking car. I've never really had too many problems with the W's besides intakes, alternators(GM's suck),starters, batteries, and of course the rear brakes. I think it would be wise for one to swap on the newer style 97/up to a 96/down or swap some other caliper and such. The majority of the problems though had more to do with DEXCOOL, people who "NEVER" checked their trans fluid and ran them 2-3 quarts low and wondered why they got smoked(cooler lines always leak), and rust/corrosion just like any other rust belt heap. Any time I got in a lower mile car there were few issues if any. To me they are no different than any other make. Plenty of potential. The turbo is small and the bottom end is sub-par, but a decent car overall. I wouldn't mind having one if it hadn't been hacked.

[black86glhs]

94 or 95 was when they switched to the Cadillac style rear calipers. I liked working on them. Nothing better than taking a completely frozen set and making them work better than new. I have wonderd what a turbo 3.8 would be able to do. No, not a rear drive, take the FWD engine and try it. I agree the older alt. were crappy but the CS144's. Starting around 97-98, they went to a chrysler looking alt, and they last longer. Biggest improvement was a larger bearing set.

[zin]

My Step-mom's was a very nice car (they took SERIOUS good care of that car). But I'm just too tall to fit in it so they sold it to someone else. In stock form they really responded well to a chip because the factory torque limited it in an effort to spare the trans, chip it and you're off the the races as they say. The stock turbo was a bit weeny, but if you weren't doing other mods, and didn't get greedy with the boost it was OK.

I'll agree that the 3.4 twin dual cam (what a name!) had lots of potential, and I was really tempted to try and fit one into my Citation X-11, but even though I know I could fit it, it would be so much more hassle than just turbocharging a Camaro 3.4L 2 valve, which is what I think I'll end up doing, whenever I get around to that project!:nod: Oh, did I mention that I have a thing for AWD and turbo? Yup, after the Omni gets it, so will the X, I've got a donor 90 Pont 6000 SE (AWD) ready to sacrifice it's drivetrain.:D That and it's floor pan, engine cradle, etc, etc. I think you can see why I'm starting with the Omni!

Mike

[bradp]

My Step-mom's was a very nice car (they took SERIOUS good care of that car). But I'm just too tall to fit in it so they sold it to someone else. In stock form they really responded well to a chip because the factory torque limited it in an effort to spare the trans, chip it and you're off the the races as they say. The stock turbo was a bit weeny, but if you weren't doing other mods, and didn't get greedy with the boost it was OK.

I'll agree that the 3.4 twin dual cam (what a name!) had lots of potential, and I was really tempted to try and fit one into my Citation X-11, but even though I know I could fit it, it would be so much more hassle than just turbocharging a Camaro 3.4L 2 valve, which is what I think I'll end up doing, whenever I get around to that project!:nod: Oh, did I mention that I have a thing for AWD and turbo? Yup, after the Omni gets it, so will the X, I've got a donor 90 Pont 6000 SE (AWD) ready to sacrifice it's drivetrain.:D That and it's floor pan, engine cradle, etc, etc. I think you can see why I'm starting with the Omni!

Mike

Yeah....you're just sick!!!:D

[WickedShelby88]

Well That should of been a no brainer for me... lol.. Screw the 3.1.. Either use a 3.4 or 3.8 and go crazy.. 3.4 direct bolt in goodness. 3.8.. King of the street. Get one of those GN style 3.8s from an older olds or buick and make one sick W body..:nod:

[zin]

Yeah....you're just sick!!!:D

Yeah, but you've know that for at least 24ish years!:D:D

Mike

[Vigo]

anyone thinking about swapping a gm 60* 3.1 or 3.4 should figure out the variable cam timing system on the newer 3.5 and 3.9. they actually make good power to ~6000 rpm. WAY better to drive.

[black86glhs]

Just swap the 3.5 or 3.9. That makes it easy.

[WickedShelby88]

Yeah and run MS and your golden..

[iTurbo]

There used to be an old Corsica XT 2.8L MPFI/manual with leather seats in a local junkyard that I wanted to get and convert to turbo using the TGP stuff. The motor mount on the early GM L-body cars was right in the way of the turbo though so custom motor mounts or a custom crossover pipe would have been needed.

[TurboSedan]

i wouldn't mind getting another Grand Prix Turbo STE sedan someday. i never really liked the TGP coupes; but then again i don't really like coupes in general. i parted mine out due to rust. the STE Turbo is also alot more rare than the coupe. i wish ASC/McLaren put a numbered dash plaque on these cars like Shelby did.

the '91 Cutlass Supreme sedan i had used the original regular 3.1L MPFI shortblock with all of the TGP-specific turbo parts added onto it. i turbocharged it with 227K miles on it and all i did was reseal everything along with new oil pump and timing chain set. that made 230whp & 336ft/lbs on the dyno with about 14psi. i also swapped in a Getrag 282 5-speed but i was never happy with it because it bucked like crazy. i probably could have experimented with burning my own chips and eliminated that problem but in the end some guy offered me $2000 for the car so off it went. that was over a year ago and he's still driving the car around with well over a quarter million miles. it just won't die. despite the driveability issues, it was a TON of fun having all of that torque. 2nd gear at 30mph you could nail it, NO lag at all it was just a rocket. it could take on faster cars down low (not from a dig though) but on the highway it wasn't that great.

the TGP engine uses a little Garrett T25 turbo, 8.8:1 CR and the intake manifold has long skinny runners. cast Mahle pistons, forged rods and cast crank. i wouldn't bother with that engine because it just lacks potential. a 3400 would be a MUCH better starting point although you couldn't use anything TGP specific. a turbo 3400 would be wayyyy cooler than anything 3800 and i'm an L67 owner! lol. for some reason i'm just not interested at all in the Supercharged 3800 in my Regal. i know they can be really quick and have a ton of aftermarket though.

another problem with the TGP (if you don't want an automatic that is), is that the Getrag 282 is just geared way too damn steep. 3.77 first gear and 3.61 FDR. i had no traction at all until 3rd gear even with 245s. 1st gear was absolutely useless. the swap itself is fairly easy though. the 282 is pretty common and they can be rebuilt unlike the Getrag 284.

other problems with the TGP - the Powermaster III ABS brakes SUCK but you can swap to regular vacuum brakes (alot of work). the rear calipers are notorious for siezing up but you can swap to '94+ rear calipers with 11" rotors. you can also upgrade the front brakes by swapping out the strut towers with ones from a '96+ 1st GEN W-body. the only improvement there though is a larger rotor; 10.5" compared to 11.25". i upgraded the front and rears on my Cutlass. thankfully it didn't have PMIII so i didn't have to work about that.

one nice thing about these cars is that they are REALLY easy to work on.

in the end, i'm glad i have my Spirit R/T :amen: i bought it right after i sold the Cutty.

-----------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Dodge SPiRiT R/T
'87 Shelby CSX #667
'98 Buick Regal GS

[WickedShelby88]

Maybe this is why I wanted this engine in a fiero.. A pretty sick car if you ask me. As far as the prix goes I would like to see this swap in a 95. I would honestly like the swap better in a nice loaded out 94 olds cutlass with the power moonroof in black preferably. I've always liked those cars for some reason. My dad has a purple one with black leather. Its a nice ride. +1 for the spirit R/T on being the better performance sedan from the get go.

[TurboSedan]

TGP swap in a '94/'95 W-body would be a little more difficult due to the OBD 1.5 electronics. '96/'97 had OBD-2 and i believe HP Tuners supports that. i would rather just stick to '92-'93 since the Cutlass looks the same as '94-'97 but you could easily burn your own EEPROMs and datalog with TunerPro RT. a 5-speed swap would be alot more difficult '94+ due to the different dash assembly (no place already there to hang clutch pedal). the '94+ do have a much nicer modern looking dash though.

if i were to do another swap like this it would probably be an early Corsica hatchback :D that would be a cool car with a built 3400 turbo and either a built 4T60 or Getrag 282. the L-body is pretty light too.

-----------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Dodge SPiRiT R/T
'87 Shelby CSX #667
'98 Buick Regal GS

[WickedShelby88]

I've always liked the Beretta's myself. I'm just not a big fan of 4 doors unless its a spirit or an H body.

[Vigo]

i've been a fan of the corsica styling/size. HATE the interiors they came with but after this long they're expected to be shitty, so i guess lowered standards makes them acceptable 15 years later lol.

even with the pre 3100 3.1 they werent that shitty slow, but the 3100 moved well, only made corsicas with them the last year or two, and a 3400 and a 5spd would no doubt be a strong combo, especially with bolt ons or turbo. iirc most if not all the suspension is the same as a j-body so any suspension ---- you could put on an old z24 would work on a corsica too..

[black86glhs]

Yes, the J, L, N bodies are quite compatible. The Beretta GTZ or Calais 442 would be good suspensions to look at for a swap.

[zin]

...i wouldn't bother with that engine because it just lacks potential. a 3400 would be a MUCH better starting point although you couldn't use anything TGP specific.

Actually, I believe the exhaust on both the 2.8/3.1/3.4 are still the same, so the TGP parts at least on the exhaust side would still work, which would eliminate what I would expect to be the hardest part. I don't know about the 3400, as that's a slightly different animal and may not have the same pattern/shape on the exhaust...

Mike

[black86glhs]

I used to know this. IIRC, the manifolds are the same for the 3100 and 3400 engines. Its the heads and intakes that changed for a better intake port and flow. Dropping in a 3400 is easy. Just wire it to run off the earlier electronics. The engine doesn't know the difference.

[WickedShelby88]

IIRC the 3.4 was a direct swap in the slo-maro as well. The heads are identical from 3100 to 3400 I'm pretty sure. Problem is the 3.4 heads are more prone to cracking.. I'm sure the 3100's do it too I just hadn't ever had any in the shop. The 3100/3400 heads are mexican castings BEWARE.

[black86glhs]

IIRC the 3.4 was a direct swap in the slo-maro as well. The heads are identical from 3100 to 3400 I'm pretty sure. Problem is the 3.4 heads are more prone to cracking.. I'm sure the 3100's do it too I just hadn't ever had any in the shop. The 3100/3400 heads are mexican castings BEWARE.
Joe, I'm not so sure about that. The ones I've seen were on cars that the intake gaskets took a crap(all the earlier ones did) or cars that weren't taken car of. I've seen plenty of them with over 160k on the clock. The other problem was people using impacts to tighten the headbolts(typical hack repair).:confused:

[WickedShelby88]

Well lol, I think what happened on the van I worked on was the lady kept driving it with it running hot A LOT. Might have just been a fluke. I tell you what though there is nothing worse than doing an intake job on a mini van only to have to pull the heads off. This was right before I left for florida back in I'd say 2001. I had to change the intake gaskets on a chevy venture. It sucked arse. Finally get it together and its like the air won't bleed out of the system no matter what I do... Well I put the cap on and said f--- it. Well turns out the darn thing had cracked heads.. Didn't find that out until I got back and it comes in STILL over heating. Long and short we get the heads ripped off and sure enough they are fubarred.. Well we get them repaired at this place that has provided countless amazing results in INDY. Get them back put it together and sure enough fixed.. Took wayyy too long for me to put it back together, but hey it happens.
That 3400 sure had seen better days.. I didn't give it much longer before it hand grenades due to the stress all that grief put on the lower end. I always torque things right. Even used the crazy torque angle meter tool from OTC with the little digital readout and stuff. I still would like to take a turbo prix setup and put it in fiero...:eyebrows:

[black86glhs]

I always thought they were too small for the U-vans. I have run into the same thing.
I have seen some wicked Fiero setups. How about a Northstar Fiero! SC 3800 versions. Definately some cool stuff.

[zin]

IIRC the 3.4 was a direct swap in the slo-maro as well. The heads are identical from 3100 to 3400 I'm pretty sure.

The 3.4 in the F-bodies are iron headed, the 3.1 and latter are AL, the FWD 3.4s are AL too. All the AL heads are canted valve while the iron are in-line. I'm still pretty sure that the exhaust port spacing, etc were the same, but that might have changed in the 3100-3400 series.

Mike

[TurboSedan]

Actually, I believe the exhaust on both the 2.8/3.1/3.4 are still the same, so the TGP parts at least on the exhaust side would still work, which would eliminate what I would expect to be the hardest part. I don't know about the 3400, as that's a slightly different animal and may not have the same pattern/shape on the exhaust...

Mike

you can bolt TGP exhaust manifolds onto 3100/3400 heads. the port spacing is the same and the bolt holes all line up BUT the port shape is different. the TGP uses round exhaust ports whereas the 3x00 uses 'D' shaped exhaust ports. so, bolting TGP exhaust manifolds onto 3x00 heads will result in the exhaust gas 'hitting a wall' as it exits the port so to speak. you can grind off material but you have to grind off ALOT.

people have done it and it works, but not something i would want to try after looking at all of the material that needs to come off i don't think you would have a very good sealing surface for the exhaust manifold flange. i would rather use an earlier 3100 log style rear exhaust manifold and have it modified (cut off or block downpipe dump) than use a TGP rear exhaust manifold.

---------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Dodge SPiRiT R/T
'87 Shelby CSX #667
'98 Buick Regal GS

[black86glhs]

you can bolt TGP exhaust manifolds onto 3100/3400 heads. the port spacing is the same and the bolt holes all line up BUT the port shape is different. the TGP uses round exhaust ports whereas the 3x00 uses 'D' shaped exhaust ports. so, bolting TGP exhaust manifolds onto 3x00 heads will result in the exhaust gas 'hitting a wall' as it exits the port so to speak. you can grind off material but you have to grind off ALOT.

people have done it and it works, but not something i would want to try after looking at all of the material that needs to come off i don't think you would have a very good sealing surface for the exhaust manifold flange. i would rather use an earlier 3100 log style rear exhaust manifold and have it modified (cut off or block downpipe dump) than use a TGP rear exhaust manifold.

---------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Dodge SPiRiT R/T
'87 Shelby CSX #667
'98 Buick Regal GS

Darn it, I knew there was something that changed.:confused2:
I was thinking of the same thing and mod the 3400 manifolds so they match the ports better. Heck, its time for some thick wall tubing, a flange and a mig welder.;)

[Aries_Turbo]

id put a 3400 turbo in a olds cutlass calais with a built 4t65e hehe :)

i just can get enough of the sleepers :)

Brian

[Vigo]

did you know you could actually get the calais with the 3.3?? that was a strong motor to start with and you're some minor 3.8SC swapping away from a SERIOUS amount of power for a 2600 lb car.

[black86glhs]

Yep, I used to work on them.