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glhs727
09-05-2008, 12:12 AM
OK, so order our product, you copy our product then send it back for a refund and then call it an inspiration. NICE......:eek:

Once we got the first one back. we immendiately sent you a replacement, only to have you tell us, thanks for sending it but I don't need it anymore I made my own. That is why I asked you to send me a picture of the one you made. So I guess you think it is OK to order a product from a vendor, copy it, then send it back for a refund? and then there is the additional cost for the vendor when they have to send you a replacement at their expense only to be told "oh yea, I don't need it anymore". Wow what a class act.... thanks for the heads up.... now we know better.

GLHNSLHT2
09-05-2008, 01:24 AM
I didn't copy it. Those feet are machined from solid billet and the angle is 5 degree's different than what Lonewolf bends their feet too (I know because I checked a friends angle). The fuel rail cup is a welded piece into the rail not threaded with an O-ring and a huge burr cutting into said o-ring(found on both fuel rails I've seen). Also all my hole locations are within .001" of where they should be. Not the .030"-.080" Lonewolf's stuff is off. Sorry if I ordered the extrusion from RMR and Lonewolf does too. Sorry if the feet look similar at 1st glance, they're not. Mine are fully machined into shape. Not machined then bent to a certain angle. My fuel rail is 2" longer than Lonewolf's on one end and 1/2 an inch on the other. I took all the critical measurements from a stock lower 2 piece intake and factory fuel rail. So that I knew they were correct. Not from the Lonewolf piece that was off by MILES within just itself and their relationship to the extrustion!

Maybe I should of taken pics of what was wrong with your rail and blasted you and your products on the net as soon as I found it. But no I was willing to give you the benfit of the doubt that this was just a one off mistake from the machinist. After your reply to my post I'm regretting I didn't.

Just for kicks I checked out one of the Lonewolf rails that was made over a year ago a buddy has. While it wasn't off by as much as mine was it was still way out from what is acceptable. Which when it comes to machining is +/-.005" at most.

Cindy it was 3 weeks of NOTHING from your end after you recieved the part back. I sent you emails and PM's asking the status on it. No Reply. I finally got tired of waiting, found what I needed at RossMachineRacing and ordered it. I didn't need your part to make my own. I purchased one from you hoping to save myself some time. But after getting it, looking it over and realizing that if I had machined a product that poorly I would of been fired I had to do something. When stuff is .030"-.080" off of where it should be and I'm dealing with asthetics and FUEL There is no way that is acceptable.

It took a week to get my material from RMR, and another 4 days to machine it because I had to wait over the weekend then spent 2 days after work making it. And the day I finish it your part was attempted to be delivered by FedEx. There's a week right there. Not including the time I was ignored from before SDAC and through Carlise (somewhat understandable but hotels have internet nowadays) too 2 weeks after Carlise was over. I wanted my car up and running I couldn't wait on nothing, no contact. I was willing to work with you and really impressed when Lonewolf called me right away. Which is why the original rail went back with masking tape with notes off all the improper machining. Did you even look at it? I can pull up all the emails/PM's and the Fed Ex door tag with dates if you really want to get into it. But don't try to come in here and claim there was less than 2 weeks turn around. If you had sent me a PM or Email saying the rail was on it's way or would be delivered at this time I wouldn't of had to go this route hopefully. But when I hear nothing back I've got to step up and do what needs to be done.

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/dash6.html for the extrusion, and:
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/injectortool.html to make your own injector bores with their extrustion.

glhs727
09-05-2008, 05:18 PM
OK, look at these pictures. aside from the fasteners used, what LOOKS different?

Just to clarify You sent an email on the 23rd saying you were sending the rail back, and again on the July 3rd asking if we recieved it. After that we did NOT recieve ANY correspondance from you, especially not one saying nevermind don't send me another I will just copy it. You can rant and rave all you like about how bad our rails are, if that makes you feel better about justifying copying our product. but if they are so bad why make one just like ours? Has anyone on the list complained about them? No Anyone have one that leaks because it was machined wrong or was a bad design? NO.

I think people can look at these pictures and decide for themselves

GLHNSLHT2
09-05-2008, 08:07 PM
OK, look at these pictures. aside from the fasteners used, what LOOKS different?

1st it's the same extrusion from the same place. Of course it's gonna look similar. The feet aren't machined in an L shape and bent over into an angle that's close. I did all the math and the measuring of a stock 2 piece intake fuel rail to machine my feet to the thickness/height and angle I wanted. Which is longer and about 5-10 degree's different than where The Pope's FWDP rail is. My FPR cup isn't threaded and has no O-ring, it was machined on a lathe to dimensions I found from my stock FPR and where my hole was drilled in my extrusion then welded together for a leak free application. I'm sorry if you can only SEE in 1/8" or greater increments. If you want to fly up here I can break out the calipers, height gauge, and comparitor and we can really show you the differences. There's only a couple ways to make a FPR work with that extrusion, sorry if it looks similar.

Your billet T-stat housing looks similar to TU's. Did you copy them? Or did they copy you again? Once again, not many ways to do a billet T-stat housing.


Just to clarify You sent an email on the 23rd saying you were sending the rail back, and again on the July 3rd asking if we recieved it. After that we did NOT recieve ANY correspondance from you, especially not one saying nevermind don't send me another I will just copy it.

The email on the 23rd said you would recieve the rail on the 24th via UPS. Want the tracking #? There was no email on the 3rd of July. There was one on the 1st which was exactly 1 week after you had the rail in your hands. It stated: " Hi Cindy,
Did you get a chance to look at the fuel rail yet? Thoughts? I'd like to get this dealt with as I need a fuel rail (I like your setup) to put my car back together. I've got an idea of what I'd like to do but I wanted to hear from you and your thoughts 1st.
Thanks,"

Asking what you thought we could do about my issue's. Wether it be a replacement rail that was machined properly or my money back and I make my own. I recieved NO REPLY TO THIS EMAIL!

9 days go by and nothing. I want my car on the road NOW. So I order up some extrusion and tooling from RossMachineRacing.com on the 10th.

On the 17th July I sent you a PM over at TD.com stating this. Hi Cindy,

"I shipped my fuel rail back to you on June 18th, It arrived June 23rd or 24th. I know you've been busy with SDAC, Carlisle and the 4th of july obviously. I have sent you a couple emails at Sales8755@FWDperformance.com and haven't heard anything back. Any thoughts or questions about the rail? I think I'd just like to get my money back. I need my car on the road NOW and it's quicker and easier for me to make my own and I'll know the dimensions will be square and parallel to what they need to be. You can PM or email or call me anytime.

Thanks,"

So here we are 23 days AFTER you've recieved my rail back (that's over 3 weeks for those who can't count :) )

No Reply to this PM either. So at this point My material is on it's way from RMR and I've heard NOTHING from You since 6/17/08. EXACTLY 1 Month prior to my last PM.

But there's a # of post's from you at TD.com where you were selling stuff and replying to people sending you money. hmmmm????

Now I have my material and finish it up on the 23rd of July at work. Still nothing from your end as far as an Email/PM/ OR PHONE CALL WHICH I DON'T USUALLY GIVE OUT MY CELL #, which you had from day one of the discovery of this issue and hadn't used till this point.

So I arrive home and see a door tag from Fed Ex on my door and am dumbfounded thinking "WTF is this?? I didn't order anything." Then after 10 mins or so it dawns on me. "OH This must be the missing fuel rail from FWDP!"

So a call to fed ex confirms that is is from you and even though I really wanted to get it, open it and measure it to make sure it was correct there was no way in hell I was gonna be out more money if it wasn't and had to ship it back when I had a 100% perfect fuel rail sitting in my hand. So I told fex ex to stop shipment and send it back.

ONLY AFTER YOU GOT IT BACK DID YOU CALL. And then it was one of your employee's asking what he was supposed to do with it. Maybe if you had called or emailed or PM's when you got the 1st rail back I wouldn't be sitting here explaining this to you. But after not hearing from you for so long I said "F_CK IT, I can't wait any longer, I'm gonna make my own"



You can rant and rave all you like about how bad our rails are, if that makes you feel better about justifying copying our product. but if they are so bad why make one just like ours? Has anyone on the list complained about them? No Anyone have one that leaks because it was machined wrong or was a bad design? NO.

I think people can look at these pictures and decide for themselves

I'm not ranting and raving to make me feel better or justify anything. I didn't copy your product. I ordered material from a 3rd party and made what I needed to make to get a high quality correctly machined product. I'm sorry you think that.

I never said you had a bad design. Should I cut and past all the emails saying that? I always stated that it was just machined very very poorly. My 7 year old daughter could dial in a vice better than that so that everything is true and square. Hell my 5 year old could! It's not even YOUR MACHINING AND YOUR ALL UPSET ABOUT IT. It's James at Lonewolf you can't machine something as simple as a fuel rail right. You should be mad at him.

99% of the people aren't going to complain. Duh, 99% of the people aren't machinists and don't know what to look for or how to measure it or have the tools to do so. Yes I'm anal, most machinist's are. It's really hard to f_ck up dialing in a vice and then making sure all the chips stay out from under your work piece. :rolleyes:But Lonewolf can and then FWDP can't see it.

Your picture's mean nothing. You took pics of your best rail I'm sure. Which like Rob's(The Pope's) aren't that far off. But when you're measuring down to the thousandth of an inch things get off quickly.

That's all I have to say. You have your fuel rails back, I've got a correctly machined and functioning part. I'm happy, sorry if you're not. Want me to start machining fuel rails for you? Nahh.

glhs727
09-05-2008, 10:24 PM
1st it's the same extrusion from the same place. Of course it's gonna look similar.

Not at all. I have seen plenty of people on the forums in the last 8 years make their own rail for their TD. NOT one even came close to looking just like ours. How many people beside us have been using a custom machined cup? OK, so mine screws in, you had to weld your. We did that for a reason.I'd tell you why but then you would copy that as well


. There's only a couple ways to make a FPR work with that extrusion, sorry if it looks similar.
Actually there are lots of different ways, TU's adapter comes to mind. Also several different styles of brackets could have been used. Your's just happens to look exactly like mine including the same radius on the outside edge.


Your billet T-stat housing looks similar to TU's. Did you copy them? Or did they copy you again? Once again, not many ways to do a billet T-stat housing.

I knew it wouldn't take long for that remark. Several differences. I didn't have one and waited over 7 MONTHS during which time I had emails from Chris saying he didn't know when and IF he was ever going to make more. I took a stock one to my machinist. He made me a copy- a copy of the one HE made years before for his Corvette. Only difference was the bolt hole spacing to fit a 2.2 head and the correct hose OD so we could use a stock rad hose.
BUT I guess that seems to be your reasoning for why you just duplicated ours instead of being creative and making something else.

as fars as emails, I told you up front that we would repalce the rail and to send it back. So don't say you had no idea what was going on. If you were so confused, you could have picked-up the phone and called to ask. Going on and on about how ours was machined wrong, off a thousand of an inch. For goodness sake even you factory rail isn't within a thousand of an inch. And yea, why don't you send us your rail so we can see it better. We would be happy to critique your handy work!





99% of the people aren't going to complain..
And thank goodness 99% of my customers are great people who don't copy our products!!!


Your picture's mean nothing. You took pics of your best rail I'm sure.
I actaully took the first rail I grabbed off the shelf out of 8. But they all look that way. I bet if Rob took a picture of his, it would look the same as well. And the picture means a lot. Can people tell which one is the FWD-P rail and which isn't? Doubt it. Maybe we should start a poll.


That's all I have to say. You have your fuel rails back, I've got a correctly machined and functioning part .

Of course you have a functioning fuel rail, you copied ours!


I'm happy, sorry if you're not. Want me to start machining fuel rails for you? Nahh.
You're happy because you got a great fuel rail by copying ours, and of course we are not happy because you copied it. Then to be sarcastic about machining rails for us. NICE.. Maybe you are a better machine operator than James from LW, but is is plain to me that you can't think for yourself and can't be trusted. Now why would I want you doing anything for FWD-P?
Later,
Cindy

Clay
09-05-2008, 11:11 PM
Move posts from another section.

GLHNSLHT2
09-05-2008, 11:46 PM
Not at all. I have seen plenty of people on the forums in the last 8 years make their own rail for their TD. NOT one even came close to looking just like ours. How many people beside us have been using a custom machined cup? OK, so mine screws in, you had to weld your. We did that for a reason.I'd tell you why but then you would copy that as well

I don't need to know your reason for having a threaded hole with a burr on it and some stupid O-ring with 2 threads straining to hold the "cup" in. I made it "one with the" rail as Rob likes to say. No leaks, not gonna break off. No reliability issues.



Actually there are lots of different ways, TU's adapter comes to mind. Also several different styles of brackets could have been used. Your's just happens to look exactly like mine including the same radius on the outside edge.


Look closer Cindy, my bracket is different than yours by far. TU's hangs off the end and I don't need that vibrating off.



I knew it wouldn't take long for that remark. Several differences. I didn't have one and waited over 7 MONTHS during which time I had emails from Chris saying he didn't know when and IF he was ever going to make more. I took a stock one to my machinist. He made me a copy- a copy of the one HE made years before for his Corvette. Only difference was the bolt hole spacing to fit a 2.2 head and the correct hose OD so we could use a stock rad hose.
BUT I guess that seems to be your reasoning for why you just duplicated ours instead of being creative and making something else.

My point was there is only so many ways to make something for our cars.



as fars as emails, I told you up front that we would repalce the rail and to send it back. So don't say you had no idea what was going on. If you were so confused, you could have picked-up the phone and called to ask.

I did call a couple times. All I got was no answer. I don't have a lot of time to be making phone calls while I'm at work so I like to do stuff through Email or over the internet if at all possible.


Going on and on about how ours was machined wrong, off a thousand of an inch. For goodness sake even you factory rail isn't within a thousand of an inch. And yea, why don't you send us your rail so we can see it better. We would be happy to critique your handy work!

Cindy even if the fuel rail was within +/- .010 I would of used it. But when the feet look 2 different lengths because one slot is .080" shallower than the other it's obvious something's wrong. The whole extrustion was ----ed at an angle in Y and Z when machined. Sorry but it's on the car. Send me a piece of extrusion and I'll machine one for ya and send it back. I think I'll take a factory fuel rail into work and measure it to see how close the injector cups are.





And thank goodness 99% of my customers are great people who don't copy our products!!!


Once again you missed my point. It's that 99% of the people are clueless in what to look for or have a "It's close enough" attitude. They also don't have the ability to make their own stuff so they're "stuck" with what they can get.


I actaully took the first rail I grabbed off the shelf out of 8. But they all look that way. I bet if Rob took a picture of his, it would look the same as well. And the picture means a lot. Can people tell which one is the FWD-P rail and which isn't? Doubt it. Maybe we should start a poll.

So you got a good batch, Rob got one from a Decent batch and why I had no problem buying one from you from the beginning. But his is different than what I got. His feet have been tumbled in a tumbler. The one you sent me had been ground on with a grinder. I could of delt with the cosmetic differences easy enough till I started inspecting it closer and found out things were off. Sure we can do a poll. I'll take my rail apart, Take Rob's apart and put the parts side by side, see which one is which and better. The feet on Rob's aren't even bent the same to eachother :)




Of course you have a functioning fuel rail, you copied ours!

I didn't even have yours when I came up with the dimensions for mine. Kinda hard to copy something I don't have.



You're happy because you got a great fuel rail by copying ours, and of course we are not happy because you copied it. Then to be sarcastic about machining rails for us. NICE.. Maybe you are a better machine operator than James from LW, but is is plain to me that you can't think for yourself and can't be trusted. Now why would I want you doing anything for FWD-P?
Later,
Cindy

I did all the thinking myself thank you very much. I gave you a chance to make good on the fuel rail. After a month of no contact and having the car down for a month and a half I took matter's into my own hand. I can't be trusted? I trusted you to replace my rail. After 2 weeks of hearing nothing, if you had even seen it or not I doubted that trust and did what I had to do.

Skibbe
09-05-2008, 11:59 PM
OK, so order our product, you copy our product then send it back for a refund and then call it an inspiration. NICE......:eek:

Once we got the first one back. we immendiately sent you a replacement, only to have you tell us, thanks for sending it but I don't need it anymore I made my own. That is why I asked you to send me a picture of the one you made. So I guess you think it is OK to order a product from a vendor, copy it, then send it back for a refund? and then there is the additional cost for the vendor when they have to send you a replacement at their expense only to be told "oh yea, I don't need it anymore". Wow what a class act.... thanks for the heads up.... now we know better.


Does this mean you have a fuel rail to send me? Ordered one over a year ago, was charged for it, and never received it after being told it would be in in a couple of weeks... Order #8401, June 15th 2007. I'd still rather have a fuel rail than a refund, but this is getting ridiculous...

glhs727
09-06-2008, 12:01 AM
People can look at the pictures and make up their own mind.

glhs727
09-06-2008, 12:15 AM
Does this mean you have a fuel rail to send me? Ordered one over a year ago, was charged for it, and never received it after being told it would be in in a couple of weeks... Order #8401, June 15th 2007. I'd still rather have a fuel rail than a refund, but this is getting ridiculous...

If you have a 2 piece intake or a t3 intake, then the answer is yes, if you have a one piece intake the answer is no. and I assume that is the case, otherwise you would have received it a long time ago. I suggest calling us with your cc info so we can refund your money and then you can order again once we have them on the shelf, and this way your money won't be tied up.
Thanks,
Cindy

GLHNSLHT2
09-06-2008, 12:57 AM
Does this mean you have a fuel rail to send me? Ordered one over a year ago, was charged for it, and never received it after being told it would be in in a couple of weeks... Order #8401, June 15th 2007. I'd still rather have a fuel rail than a refund, but this is getting ridiculous...

Ouch.

jamesmonty
09-06-2008, 07:46 AM
If I had got that rail I wouldn't have the tools or the knowledge to tell if something was wrong with it. I think most people on here trust the person selling it to make it right. Looks like you ran into that 1% that just isn't going to take whatever is sent and assume its right. As far him coping your rail, in my non-expert opinion it looks close but I have to say no. And if I ever order anything else I guess I will have to look it over better next time.

glhs727
09-06-2008, 09:40 AM
OK, then in your opinion what looks different?

JamesL
09-06-2008, 12:02 PM
Cindy, I don’t think this is something that should be argued on an internet forum. Please refrain from this or I will have to fire you and have you banned. :confused: There are other much more effective ways this can be addressed and we will exercise those options in short order.

Jay, you posted you had done your own “FWD Performance inspired” fuel rail. After looking at the pictures, I agree that the bracket and the cups appear to be almost an exact duplicate. An extruded rail is an extruded rail so no problem there. Knowing what tool to use to create the injector boss is a simple matter also. Without having your part in hand, it’s hard to say they are exact. You did have our part in your hands. Since you are a machinist it’s not much of a stretch to believe you made some drawings after all the precise measuring you admit to doing. That’s what any good machinist would do in order to properly program his machine. I understand you got some help with that from another member who thought it was a bad idea. I inspected the rail you sent back with all your notes on it, which BTW came to us while we were away at SDAC and out of the shop for a two week period of time. Your right, there were some tolerances that did come close to meeting our standards. We’ve had some real quality consistency issues with our vendor and are working with them to correct it. It’s not something we should have shipped. We would have appreciated the opportunity to work with you to get it right. I can’t blame you for looking at other options if you had lost faith in our ability to do that. You have to admit though that from our point of view, being that you are a machinist; As talented as you are and with the access to equipment and tools, why not just start with making your own? Why bother with any vendor’s custom product? You clearly had the time, money and resources to do that as illustrated by your remarks concerning your rail. IMO It is rather obvious how you came to the design and you feel you made a better mouse trap. Maybe you don’t want to admit to copying it but you’ve already basically said you used it as a design template. Your rail looks good I hope it was worth it.

GLHSKEN
09-06-2008, 07:46 PM
Thread locked per request.