Detonation issues, MP stage II L body

[turbovanman²]

I did a TII swap last year on an L body, installed a MP StgII CSX/Lancer LM and his buddy just installed an IC, looks medium in size. I did a stock rebuild with forged pistons etc but at any kind of boost at WOT, it pings badly. Running 94 octane. I have to retard the base timing to around 4 deg to get it to stop.

Any idea's?

[cordes]

What size injectors? How much is any kind of boost?

[turbovanman²]

Stock TII injectors, any boost up to 13 psi as thats what I have the MBC set at.

Its got plenty of fuel looking at the scanner, .92-.94 volts at WOT.

[contraption22]

Stock TII injectors, any boost up to 13 psi as thats what I have the MBC set at.

Its got plenty of fuel looking at the scanner, .92-.94 volts at WOT.

You'd be shocked to know how lean 1 volt on a narrow band 02 really can be.

[turbovanman²]

True but thats still enough fuel.

So, any idea's? I had to knock it back to 0 degs to get it to stop.

[black86glhs]

Did you verify the knock sensor wasn't broken. I ask because I found mine broken when I was rebuilding it. Not sure if I did it or not, but either way it needed replaced.

[turbovanman²]

I am getting knock retard but not enough. This is what I don't understand, a basically stock setup on premium fuel shouldn't be pinging, :(

[cordes]

I take it you have verified FP, and inspected/replaced the fuel filter? What do the plugs look like?

[turbovanman²]

I take it you have verified FP, and inspected/replaced the fuel filter? What do the plugs look like?

Brand new plugs-BR9ES, look fine. Brand new 255 fuel pump, new filter, 55 psi with line off, raises 1:1 in boost.

Almost everything has been replaced due to the poor condition it was in when I got it. :thumb:

[black86glhs]

Gotcha. I was thinking you were seeing timing being pulled.
Bad gas? Poor spark? Poor fuel atomization(I know....what would cause it)? Is there a sharp edge on the pistons that is getting hot and causing it to pre-ignite?

[BadAssPerformance]

If it is rich, then it sounds like a knock sensor issue...

Is it s 2.2L or 2.5L? If 2.5L that's why.

Also, the Stage II LM is supposed to match up with the 36pph injectors, not the stock 2.2L T2 32pph ones.

[ssheen]

From his first post, it sounds like it is audible knock that he is hearing. So that pretty much rules out a bad knock sensor. When you use the scanner did you also check out the PW of the injectors too? I would wonder if the ECU cal you are using has agressive timing tables?? I remember seeing the MP tables and they are more agressive than stock.

Did the C/R go up any?

[black86glhs]

I was wondering the same about the timing. I haven't seen the timing tables so I could really be sure. JT, that is something to think about.

[BadAssPerformance]

Maybe if the cam is way off that could do it too?

[bakes]

I think its the 2.2s advance curve is to aggressive on a 2.5 I'm having the same issue with my 2.5 with a 2.2 cal in pings hard under load with 94 octane
I'm going to get a 2.5 cal for it .

[ssheen]

I know when I first got my cam gear a few years ago, I played with the cam time to the extreme. When it was adjusted really far from spec I had easy audible knock happening...

[BadAssPerformance]

still no idea if it is a 2.2L or 2.5L ....

ssheen said compression? Hmmmm....

[BadAssPerformance]

I know when I first got my cam gear a few years ago, I played with the cam time to the extreme. When it was adjusted really far from spec I had easy audible knock happening...

kinda what I was thinking...

So in summary... a checklist of sorts:

is it a 2.5L?
what compression?
cam timing?
large enough injectors?

anything else?

[ssheen]

Looks like a good checklist to me...

[BadAssPerformance]

Cool :thumb:

Simon, checklist, Do it, Do it

:D

[turbovanman²]

kinda what I was thinking...

So in summary... a checklist of sorts:

is it a 2.5L?
what compression?
cam timing?
large enough injectors?

anything else?

Stock TII build, so that means, drum roll please, 2.2, ;)

Stock compression, head wasn't milled, stock dish pistons but I can do a compression test when he brings it back.

CAm timing bang on, check of course and done using a timing light.

I am using a roller 2.5 T1 cam so if anything, that will move the power band up, which I can attest too, this thing pulls like a mofo to rpm cutoff, easily breaks the tires loose in 2nd gear.

I was told last year by you guys, that this cal takes T1 injectors, aka 2.2 TII or 2.5T1's. I was using those last year and it ran mega lean so I put +20's in and now it was pig rich, so rich I turned the fuel pressure down to 30 psi and it was still pig rich-but it didn't knock. Put my TIII stock injectors in and now its fine at stock 55 psi setting but knocks. :confused:

[ssheen]

You figure it out Simon?

Anything to look at would be the cooling system health or UDP. Poor cooling could lead to hot spots.

[turbovanman²]

No, he took it, I told him to bring it back after he's put some miles on it. I pinged hot or cold but he is getting the rad fixed, the air just goes around it. No UD pulley.

[BadAssPerformance]

I was told last year by you guys, that this cal takes T1 injectors, aka 2.2 TII or 2.5T1's. I was using those last year and it ran mega lean so I put +20's in and now it was pig rich, so rich I turned the fuel pressure down to 30 psi and it was still pig rich-but it didn't knock. Put my TIII stock injectors in and now its fine at stock 55 psi setting but knocks. :confused:

MP S2 LM is supposed to run 36pph injectors at55psi... (13% and the cal supposed to cut fuel a little so it is less actually) ...I run 42pph injectors at 55psi with 100 octane and it will idle rich and run WOT rich but everywhere else it runs great cuz the O2 is working...

With that said, with the 2.2L T2 on the MP S2 cal and stock everything (including cam) I have run 15psi boost at 15° ignition timing all day long on 93 octane true the stock 32pph injectors at stock fuel pressure... no ping

[turbovanman²]

MP S2 LM is supposed to run 36pph injectors at55psi... (13% and the cal supposed to cut fuel a little so it is less actually) ...I run 42pph injectors at 55psi with 100 octane and it will idle rich and run WOT rich but everywhere else it runs great cuz the O2 is working...

With that said, with the 2.2L T2 on the MP S2 cal and stock everything (including cam) I have run 15psi boost at 15° ignition timing all day long on 93 octane true the stock 32pph injectors at stock fuel pressure... no ping


It didn't ping with the +20's but ran pig rich at anything other than idle. It was using gas at a stupid rate of course. It had no fuel control at anything over idle, and I had to put the TII injectors in to pass a smog check, hence trying to lower the fuel pressure.

Maybe I'll get an afpr and up the pressure a bit and see what happens.

[BadAssPerformance]

So it was rich when it read the O2? Is the O2 good in it?

It should be the opposite, rich at idle or WOT, stoich at constant speed driving.

[turbovanman²]

So it was rich when it read the O2? Is the O2 good in it?

It should be the opposite, rich at idle or WOT, stoich at constant speed driving.

Brand new Ox and tested with my labscope. Pig rich on the Ox sensor, hooked up to a sniffer, 10% CO at anything other than idle. With the TII injectors, closed loop and passed a sniffer.

[bakes]

Well Simon i joined the ping club, swapped the 27# in for the 33# A/F ratio is perfect couldn't ask for anything better but man i pings bad 2000- 3500rpm. Have timing down to 3* suspect its the 2.5t1cam not enough over lap (sealing to good down low)and the CAL is for G head. Going to put my purple shaft in next week and see if it helps move the power band up higher.
1984-87 2.2 turbo 1 &2 duration 240-240* overlap 20* 110*
1986-87 2.5 Na duration 244-244* overlap 28* 108*
1989-92 2.5 turbo 1 duration 228-228* over lap 20* 110*
1989-94 2.2/2.5 Na 236-236* overlap 28* centerline?
p4452767 240/248* overlap 24* lift .460 110*

[turbovanman²]

Bummer, let me know what you find out.

[Clay]

Also, the Stage II LM is supposed to match up with the 36pph injectors, not the stock 2.2L T2 32pph ones.

Ive never heard of this?? is this what we are actually suppose to be using with a stage II LM????? Ive run multiple stage II LMs with stock T2 injectors many times with no issues.

[bakes]

Ive never heard of this?? is this what we are actually suppose to be using with a stage II LM????? Ive run multiple stage II LMs with stock T2 injectors many times with no issues.

I haven't ether until now . I'm running LM p4452118(1985 t1 / MP intercooler computer Pkg.) ,back in the day the only injector for OEM turbo 2.2 was the 27# until turbo II came out with 33#. so I'm taking it that the Cal was written for 27# all they did was ramp up the injector duty cycle.
The 33# drown my 2.5 , i lowered the fuel pressure down to 32 psi , at full boost A/F was 11.5 to 1 at idle hard starts and miss fire do to bad fuel spray patterns .
I know i need a new Cal but cant afford it right now .

[bakes]

Found the wastegate line blown off 20psi at 2200/2500rpm going to do some runs tonight to see if it helps if it does I'm going put some timing back into it.

[boost geek]

I always ran +40s with my GLHS stage 2 computer.

[BadAssPerformance]

Ive never heard of this?? is this what we are actually suppose to be using with a stage II LM????? Ive run multiple stage II LMs with stock T2 injectors many times with no issues.

IIR, thats what the MP catalog used to say...

[bakes]

Found the wastegate line blown off 20psi at 2200/2500rpm going to do some runs tonight to see if it helps if it does I'm going put some timing back into it.

Road tested ME BAD it was the waste gate hose i guess i kocked it out of the boost sol. when i was changing out the injectors .

[Turbo_Rampage]

It didn't ping with the +20's but ran pig rich at anything other than idle. It was using gas at a stupid rate of course. It had no fuel control at anything over idle, and I had to put the TII injectors in to pass a smog check, hence trying to lower the fuel pressure.

Maybe I'll get an afpr and up the pressure a bit and see what happens.

I pretty much have the same setup in my Rampage... 2.2L T2 with MP stage II and i'm running the +20 injectors @ 38psi static fuel pressure and 14lbs boost. (A/F ratio 11.0:1) I also have the BR9ES plugs and my car won't idle on it's own for the first few minutes on cold startup until the 02 goes into feedback... i think the plugs foul up for the first bit. Have you tried another MAP sensor? Is the part # on the MAP sensor in red writing? My Rampage gave me similar problems two years ago and it ended up being a faulty MAP sensor...

Possible a bad TPS?

[turbovanman²]

I pretty much have the same setup in my Rampage... 2.2L T2 with MP stage II and i'm running the +20 injectors @ 38psi static fuel pressure and 14lbs boost. (A/F ratio 11.0:1) I also have the BR9ES plugs and my car won't idle on it's own for the first few minutes on cold startup until the 02 goes into feedback... i think the plugs foul up for the first bit. Have you tried another MAP sensor? Is the part # on the MAP sensor in red writing? My Rampage gave me similar problems two years ago and it ended up being a faulty MAP sensor...

Possible a bad TPS?


I put a known good MAP sensor in, its fine with the TII injectors, but I am maybe thinking it doesn't have enough fuel upstairs. I checked everything multiple times, :(

I am having him come back so I'll play more then.

[bakes]

I put a known good MAP sensor in, its fine with the TII injectors, but I am maybe thinking it doesn't have enough fuel upstairs. I checked everything multiple times, :(

I am having him come back so I'll play more then.

what boost level were you running?

[2.2turboscotty]

i was running almost the same as Turbo Rampage was in the Scamp a couple of years ago and everything was working perfectly. same rich at startup but after a couple of minutes it was great. i thought the MP stage2 was setup for stock injectors so i had my FP set at 40psi with the +20s. do you have an extra AFPR around to try and use the +20s? on another note i had a MP stage2 go bad on me and i was having some knock untill the computer just went crazy and started throwing all kinds of codes.

[turbovanman²]

what boost level were you running?

12-13 psi, ping city, :(


i was running almost the same as Turbo Rampage was in the Scamp a couple of years ago and everything was working perfectly. same rich at startup but after a couple of minutes it was great. i thought the MP stage2 was setup for stock injectors so i had my FP set at 40psi with the +20s. do you have an extra AFPR around to try and use the +20s? on another note i had a MP stage2 go bad on me and i was having some knock untill the computer just went crazy and started throwing all kinds of codes.

Tried to lower the FP with the +20's, couldn't get it to go into closed loop except at idle, :(

[Turbo_Rampage]

What voltage is the LM seeing at WOT for the TPS?

[turbovanman²]

What voltage is the LM seeing at WOT for the TPS?

Never checked it as thats not my issue, its rich right off idle with +20's. :(

[Turbo_Rampage]

Never checked it as thats not my issue, its rich right off idle with +20's. :(

Just an idea... I thought it could possibly be staying in closed loop at WOT.


Your saying it's rich right off idle with the +20... what is your FP at?

[turbovanman²]

Back from the dead, he fixed the running hot issue and just brought it back out of storage.

Compression test, 150 across the board, the roller cam retarded the cam timing and rechecked cam timing, cam gear bang on. Fuel pressure, 55 psi with line off.

Fresh tank of 94 octane, 0 deg's timing, now running at a nice 160-180 deg's, pings alot but worse when I hit 3rd at WOT, still 2 greens lit up on the AF guage, hit 4th and it rattles and the AF reads last 2 orange.

I thought I had put BR9's in but it just had regular GR4's in it, oops. Put some BR9's in, fixed the knock except at 3rd and 4th. I installed an AFPR and upped the fuel pressure 5 psi, no more knock. I'll be able to test more on the way home and then maybe I can put the stock timing back in.

[roachjuice]

weird. i never had issues with a stage 2 lm. but each car is different.

[turbovanman²]

weird. i never had issues with a stage 2 lm. but each car is different.

Yep, and my buddy with his T1 van I put a TII turbo in is also having detonation issues with 94 gas, :mad:

[1984rampage]

Maybe the gas is REALLY crappy up there?

[turbovanman²]

Maybe the gas is REALLY crappy up there?

Nope, our 94 is the best stuff around, bar none. I run 94 at 20 psi on my van, no issues, :nod: