pics of external wastegate setups.

[spoolinhard]

I am just curious how everyone else is doing theirs. I was wandering if anybody had any uncluttered shots of their wastegate setups. thanks
-Kaleb

[Skibbe]

I'm running one off a stock (but ported) manifold:

http://cgwrr.com/Mopar/86SCblue_files/turboandwaste.jpg

http://cgwrr.com/Mopar/86SCblue_files/downpipe.jpg

[Speedeuphoria]

if you going to recirculate it I suggest not having a sharp bend where they merge and also as far after the turbine as possible

[turbovanman]

I've since taken the heat wrapping off and added a v-band clamp just before the flex hose.


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics051.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics052.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics060.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics061.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics066.jpg

[spoolinhard]

I've since taken the heat wrapping off and added a v-band clamp just before the flex hose.


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics051.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics052.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics060.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics061.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20engine%20build%20pics/Canoncamerapics066.jpg

So you are installing yours after the exhuast housing?

[turbovanman]

So you are installing yours after the exhuast housing?

I put the V-band just before the flex pipe.

[Mopar318]

Turbovan, I have never seen that housing before, and I have seen alot of turbos.

That is pretty cool how, is that a new released item? Or just been hiding from me?

[turbovanman]

Turbovan, I have never seen that housing before, and I have seen alot of turbos.

That is pretty cool how, is that a new released item? Or just been hiding from me?

I bought it from a member on here, its made by Turbonetics and another member told me from here thats the way they used to do it. Not sure how old but it seems to work. I am not sure if its costing me power or ?

[Mopar318]

I bought it from a member on here, its made by Turbonetics and another member told me from here thats the way they used to do it. Not sure how old but it seems to work. I am not sure if its costing me power or ?

I would say it works fine for your setup. Equal length runners, and proper waste get placement come more into play, when your running very high rpm, and trying to spool a large turbo.

What you have is better than any factory setup I would presume.

[turbovanman]

I am no expert on those type of things so yeah, not sure if its a bad spot or ? but it seems to work, boost is rock solid.

Wonder where I could find info on it, haven't had any real luck trying to find any.

This is a cool setup pic-

http://i33.tinypic.com/mrfjph.jpg

[spoolinhard]

I would say it works fine for your setup. Equal length runners, and proper waste get placement come more into play, when your running very high rpm, and trying to spool a large turbo.

What you have is better than any factory setup I would presume.

I am going to be running high rpms and spooling a very large turbo on my 8v setup. I plan on making a TBI header. Where would be the best place for my setup to run the external?

[Mopar318]

Best place is the collector if your making a tubular style header. Larger turbines can use smaller wastegate. Small turbines tend to like bigger gates. Something to keep in mind.

I ran my 5.2 liter dakota with a 38mm tial gate. And had 0 boost control issues. Its got a P trim 1.00 A/R wheel.

[Ondonti]

I am no expert on those type of things so yeah, not sure if its a bad spot or ? but it seems to work, boost is rock solid.

Wonder where I could find info on it, haven't had any real luck trying to find any.

This is a cool setup pic-

http://i33.tinypic.com/mrfjph.jpg

There is nothing wrong with that design of wastegate you have.

The only problem you would have is if you reintroduced the exhaust improperly or anywhere near the turbine.

[Ondonti]

I'm running one off a stock (but ported) manifold:

http://cgwrr.com/Mopar/86SCblue_files/turboandwaste.jpg

http://cgwrr.com/Mopar/86SCblue_files/downpipe.jpg

That is probably going to rob more HP then a stock swingvalve.
You should have externally dumped that or rejoined it after all the bends, at least a foot away from the turbine. Having it merge perpendicularly to the turbine flowpath 2 inches from the wheel is not good.

[Skibbe]

That is probably going to rob more HP then a stock swingvalve.
You should have externally dumped that or rejoined it after all the bends, at least a foot away from the turbine. Having it merge perpendicularly to the turbine flowpath 2 inches from the wheel is not good.

Maybe... ;)

[Ondonti]

Maybe... ;)
Yup
;)

All the HP gains from an external gate come from diverting the wastegate flow away from the turbine out! hello backpressure.

[spoolinhard]

So I need to put mine right after the exhuast flange on the turbo like turbovanmans?

[8valves]

Yup
;)

All the HP gains from an external gate come from diverting the wastegate flow away from the turbine out! hello backpressure.

Wrong.

It surely is better in theory to merge them back in gradually and further from the turbine housing, but not necessary. On the Lambo kits I've changed the wastegate re-circ from into the exhaust tip to 4" from the turbine housing, 90* into the donwpipe with zero power loss and zero boost control issues.

Simon, your housing was modified by Mike IIRC. It is not a "stock" as cast housing from T-netics.

[Speedeuphoria]

Wrong.

It surely is better in theory to merge them back in gradually and further from the turbine housing, but not necessary. On the Lambo kits I've changed the wastegate re-circ from into the exhaust tip to 4" from the turbine housing, 90* into the donwpipe with zero power loss and zero boost control issues.

Simon, your housing was modified by Mike IIRC. It is not a "stock" as cast housing from T-netics.

Do you have any info on re-circ vs. divorced HP?, I only saw a few things but most say divorced gains HP. From what you said it sounds like no difference there either.

[turbovanman]

Wrong.

It surely is better in theory to merge them back in gradually and further from the turbine housing, but not necessary. On the Lambo kits I've changed the wastegate re-circ from into the exhaust tip to 4" from the turbine housing, 90* into the donwpipe with zero power loss and zero boost control issues.

Simon, your housing was modified by Mike IIRC. It is not a "stock" as cast housing from T-netics.

Who is Mike? is it any good?


Do you have any info on re-circ vs. divorced HP?, I only saw a few things but most say divorced gains HP. From what you said it sounds like no difference there either.

I remember a thread on SRT forums and they removed the dump from the exhaust and picked up some good power. So this stuff is still voodoo for me or maybe he had a poor setup and needed all the help he could get.

[GLHNSLHT2]

The thing I don't like about Simons WG is that it's in the roof of the exhaust housing. Which would lead me to believe that it disrupts a lot of flow going into the turbo. When I do my external gate I'm gonna go with either the good flow or poor flow setup in Simon's little pic (nice diagram!) The WG is secondary to the flow into the turbo IMO.

[spoolinhard]

Could be tricky to get my external plumbed it. I plan on making a header out of a TBI manifold. Not exactly alot of room to work with. I will have to post pics when i get it welded up.

[8valves]

Who is Mike? is it any good?



I remember a thread on SRT forums and they removed the dump from the exhaust and picked up some good power. So this stuff is still voodoo for me or maybe he had a poor setup and needed all the help he could get.

Mike Radowski I think his name was. He looked like a good fabricator on his website. That housing was on his Horizon, was it not? The burgundy T3 car, then he went to the Rampage setup.

[8valves]

Do you have any info on re-circ vs. divorced HP?, I only saw a few things but most say divorced gains HP. From what you said it sounds like no difference there either.

I won't say that what we did showed that there were no gains from going to divorced, just that on our cars there seemed to be little harm in moving around the re-circulation, even when we moved to 90* into the DP just 4 inches from the turbine outlet flange.

Now, would they make MORE power if it were dumped? Perhaps. But the fact of the matter was that the deemed crucial re-entry point made little power difference on our cars.

Other results may vary though.

If it makes any difference, I prefer to dump my gates to atmoshpere... just in case :nod:

[turbovanman]

Mike Radowski I think his name was. He looked like a good fabricator on his website. That housing was on his Horizon, was it not? The burgundy T3 car, then he went to the Rampage setup.

I got it from Mario on here, the parts whore.

What do you think of it? power/flow wise?

[glhs875]

Best place is the collector if your making a tubular style header. Larger turbines can use smaller wastegate. Small turbines tend to like bigger gates. Something to keep in mind.

I ran my 5.2 liter dakota with a 38mm tial gate. And had 0 boost control issues. Its got a P trim 1.00 A/R wheel.




I don't know about the comment of larger turbines can use smaller wastegates. I was using the internal (small 25mm give or take) wastegate on an SC6152 which has a very large turbine on the 8V 2.2 in my GLHS. Starting at around 5500rpm boost control was totally out of control!!! Worked fine at controlling boost in the lower revs. And trust me, I checked everything out for proper working order more than once. Was a good learning experience.

[Mopar318]

The smallest after market external I have seen is a 35mm. Which would probably work well for your setup. External gates also allow you to direct flow into the gate before the turbine, This helps with controlling boost a ton!

I am just giving him a general theory statement. The larger turbine will use more exhaust gas, there for less will need to be bypassed through the waste gate. The smaller turbine, will you less, need more to be bypasses to allow for proper boost control. RPM's become a factor too. You may be making more energy, than your turbo can use, and your wastegate cant get rid off.

Now when the gate is just too small to provide for either of these, then its time for a upgrade.

[8valves]

The smallest after market external I have seen is a 35mm. Which would probably work well for your setup. External gates also allow you to direct flow into the gate before the turbine, This helps with controlling boost a ton!

I am just giving him a general theory statement. The larger turbine will use more exhaust gas, there for less will need to be bypassed through the waste gate. The smaller turbine, will you less, need more to be bypasses to allow for proper boost control. RPM's become a factor too. You may be making more energy, than your turbo can use, and your wastegate cant get rid off.

Now when the gate is just too small to provide for either of these, then its time for a upgrade.

Well said.

Simon, yeah it's Mike's old piece. It's not bad, it obviously is working for what you need it to do.

I'll say it's not my preference for placement, but whatever. A stock location isn't fantastic either, but it works for most people.

[turbovanman]

Well said.

Simon, yeah it's Mike's old piece. It's not bad, it obviously is working for what you need it to do.

I'll say it's not my preference for placement, but whatever. A stock location isn't fantastic either, but it works for most people.

Just wondering if its costing me power, new to external wastegates.

[8valves]

Just wondering if its costing me power, new to external wastegates.

It's quite possible, but of course, there is only one way to find out!

I would imagine it is, but only in comparison to a "good" setup external. I can't imagine you're down from a stock-style internal. Your boost control of all things should be far greater on it.

[glhs875]

The smallest after market external I have seen is a 35mm. Which would probably work well for your setup. External gates also allow you to direct flow into the gate before the turbine, This helps with controlling boost a ton!

I am just giving him a general theory statement. The larger turbine will use more exhaust gas, there for less will need to be bypassed through the waste gate. The smaller turbine, will you less, need more to be bypasses to allow for proper boost control. RPM's become a factor too. You may be making more energy, than your turbo can use, and your wastegate cant get rid off.

Now when the gate is just too small to provide for either of these, then its time for a upgrade.


Oh I'm sure I'm making more exhaust energy/flow than the small internal wastegate can get rid of, and I went with a 38mm Turbosmart. I didn't want to possibly waste money on something smaller and then possibly still have massive boost creep issues! And the turbine wheel on a SC6152 is +2.9" in diameter. Pretty darn big!! Seems odd to me that a Stage3 .63AR turbine which is smaller than the SC6152's turbine doesn't seem to have boost control issues with the small internal gate. I can't really agree with what you are saying from my experiences.

[glhs875]

Just wondering if its costing me power, new to external wastegates.


I'm not so sure a wastegate can cost or make HP. If the wastegate is able to control boost then there is definitely not a flow problem with it. I have experienced flow problems with a wastegate on more than one occasion, and one of them being a 38mm external. On both vehicles the result was more HP was made due to boost creep. A large enough and proper flowing wastegate does not open and stay open to control the boost, it pulses. If it is having to stay open all the time to try and control boost then there is a flow problem some where. However, if a person didn't mind some boost creep, then I do feel it might be possible to maybe make more HP with a very good thought out setup. And that would be one that allows a 1to1 or better boost to backpressure ratio to be obtained. Then big cams/headers etc. would really work like they are supposed too. One of these days I may try out some of my theories on this subject. And the last time I seen pictures of Brian Slowe's setup on his Shadow, his wastegate placement was in the same spot as yours. He runs 9's!!!

[turbovanman]

I'm not so sure a wastegate can cost or make HP. If the wastegate is able to control boost then there is definitely not a flow problem with it. I have experienced flow problems with a wastegate on more than one occasion, and one of them being a 38mm external. On both vehicles the result was more HP was made due to boost creep. A large enough and proper flowing wastegate does not open and stay open to control the boost, it pulses. If it is having to stay open all the time to try and control boost then there is a flow problem some where. However, if a person didn't mind some boost creep, then I do feel it might be possible to maybe make more HP with a very good thought out setup. And that would be one that allows a 1to1 or better boost to backpressure ratio to be obtained. Then big cams/headers etc. would really work like they are supposed too. One of these days I may try out some of my theories on this subject. And the last time I seen pictures of Brian Slowe's setup on his Shadow, his wastegate placement was in the same spot as yours. He runs 9's!!!

Good to know, :nod:

[8valves]

I'm not so sure a wastegate can cost or make HP. If the wastegate is able to control boost then there is definitely not a flow problem with it. I have experienced flow problems with a wastegate on more than one occasion, and one of them being a 38mm external. On both vehicles the result was more HP was made due to boost creep. A large enough and proper flowing wastegate does not open and stay open to control the boost, it pulses. If it is having to stay open all the time to try and control boost then there is a flow problem some where. However, if a person didn't mind some boost creep, then I do feel it might be possible to maybe make more HP with a very good thought out setup. And that would be one that allows a 1to1 or better boost to backpressure ratio to be obtained. Then big cams/headers etc. would really work like they are supposed too. One of these days I may try out some of my theories on this subject. And the last time I seen pictures of Brian Slowe's setup on his Shadow, his wastegate placement was in the same spot as yours. He runs 9's!!!

I changed wastegate location on both our Ford GT kit and the Lambo kit for a more optimized location for flow to the gate rather than the turbine housing.

Both setups netted a 20+ WHP/WTQ gain in the midrange with no boost changes.

However, these setups do have a 1-1 ratio under full boost, so that does have a role here since the exhaust gas isn't constantly seeking an exit point as with our cars with a higher pressure ratio.

[turbovanman]

I changed wastegate location on both our Ford GT kit and the Lambo kit for a more optimized location for flow to the gate rather than the turbine housing.

Both setups netted a 20+ WHP/WTQ gain in the midrange with no boost changes.

However, these setups do have a 1-1 ratio under full boost, so that does have a role here since the exhaust gas isn't constantly seeking an exit point as with our cars with a higher pressure ratio.

What kind of power are we talking about to begin with?

[Speedeuphoria]

Thats what I was wondering also, guessing near 800whp

[8valves]

Thats what I was wondering also, guessing near 800whp

700-1000 whp depending on boost and octane.

While that's obviously higher than what you're making, that doesn't mean it doesn't effect your car at all. The same principals apply, it just might not be as big of a difference. Or maybe it would be more. Tough to say.

[glhs875]

I changed wastegate location on both our Ford GT kit and the Lambo kit for a more optimized location for flow to the gate rather than the turbine housing.

Both setups netted a 20+ WHP/WTQ gain in the midrange with no boost changes.

However, these setups do have a 1-1 ratio under full boost, so that does have a role here since the exhaust gas isn't constantly seeking an exit point as with our cars with a higher pressure ratio.


That's very interesting! I would love to see/hear of more examples, with alot of data, and see the dyno plots as well.

[Ondonti]

Wrong.

It surely is better in theory to merge them back in gradually and further from the turbine housing, but not necessary. On the Lambo kits I've changed the wastegate re-circ from into the exhaust tip to 4" from the turbine housing, 90* into the donwpipe with zero power loss and zero boost control issues.

Simon, your housing was modified by Mike IIRC. It is not a "stock" as cast housing from T-netics.

So then there is no point and diameter is all that matters. :confused:
4" is technically plenty big even for 1000whp so I guess if fudge factory is what people are going for then great.
In the future, lets see how close we can get it before it screws things up.

And with the hole fact that those wastegates really dont have to move any exhaust like a TD needs to..............Pretty sure most TD's run very very very high exhaust gas backpressure.

Not sure why you had to say "wrong" when you evidence really isn't a viable comparison to these cars here and you know it.

If your cars were on the verge of creeping boost because the wastegate couldnt flow enough, then maybe, but you didnt build them with that being a possibility.

Build a GTtt or lambo that moves 30+% of its exhaust gas through the wastegate under boost and watch power dive when you reintroduce it right behind the turbo at a 90 degree. Its obvious your setups hardly need any boost control because they are set to maximize hp/psi boost. Your setups would be comparable to a setup like Stephanes on low boost, but you know he wouldn't mess around with recirc even if it only lost 1 hp.

I am going to go with "you're wrong" unless there is so much money into the car that it hardly needs a wastegate. Then "you're right"

[Ondonti]

The thing I don't like about Simons WG is that it's in the roof of the exhaust housing. Which would lead me to believe that it disrupts a lot of flow going into the turbo. When I do my external gate I'm gonna go with either the good flow or poor flow setup in Simon's little pic (nice diagram!) The WG is secondary to the flow into the turbo IMO.

I am pretty sure some F1 teams have run their wastegates like that in the past. I know some racing cars have. Bias for flow to the wastegate is not a bad thing.

Or you can be like all the idiot FWDers who run twin 44mm wastegates on their ramhorns manifolds because the 90 deg angle they use doesnt work. Some of it is them trying to twin scroll, but there is no reason to have to use twin 44 mm gates on 2000 cc motors. 44mm gates are cheaper then building a good wastegate flowpath though.

I have my manifold set up for a twin scroll turbo but I collect wastegate flow from both sides and merge into one wastegate. The wastegate is closed until it reaches near full boost so no exhaust pulses are moving through the wastegate pipes to ruin the twin scroll properties. This also keeps exhaust gas pressure similar in both "scrolls" during WOT when the wastegate opens (and at that point you dont care about spooling the turbo) so reversion into cylinders should be the same.

I dont understand why you would ever reintroduce wastegate gases unless it was a packaging issue. If you have modified your car like that, its already illegal, and you dont test emissions under boost.

The 900hp 4 cylinders guys here..who are still a much better comparison then a lambo or ford GT, wont reintroduce their wastegate gases until the back of the car (and their turbos are in front of the engine) because they move a lot of exhaust through their wastegates. So you are talking 7-8 feet of exhaust pipe before they reintroduce it. By then exhaust has cooled a lot, and they still use a very gradual introduction. They have to reintroduce it for SFWD race rules I believe.

[8valves]

So then there is no point and diameter is all that matters. :confused:
4" is technically plenty big even for 1000whp so I guess if fudge factory is what people are going for then great.
In the future, lets see how close we can get it before it screws things up.

And with the hole fact that those wastegates really dont have to move any exhaust like a TD needs to..............Pretty sure most TD's run very very very high exhaust gas backpressure.

Not sure why you had to say "wrong" when you evidence really isn't a viable comparison to these cars here and you know it.

If your cars were on the verge of creeping boost because the wastegate couldnt flow enough, then maybe, but you didnt build them with that being a possibility.

Build a GTtt or lambo that moves 30+% of its exhaust gas through the wastegate under boost and watch power dive when you reintroduce it right behind the turbo at a 90 degree. Its obvious your setups hardly need any boost control because they are set to maximize hp/psi boost. Your setups would be comparable to a setup like Stephanes on low boost, but you know he wouldn't mess around with recirc even if it only lost 1 hp.

I am going to go with "you're wrong" unless there is so much money into the car that it hardly needs a wastegate. Then "you're right"

Here, I'll make this very simple.

Go watch a video of one of our GT-TT on either the dyno or the road, and listen to when the gates are open on it, since they are dumped to atmoshpere on that car. It isn't very hard for a pair of 61mm's to produce 18 psi worh of cfm on that engine when it has a DOHC 5.4 with a large stroke and nice 1 7/8" headers into a burns merged collector.

For instance, we once had a set of old 38mm gates (they now run on 44's) stick closed after being used with race gas a few too many times. The car pegged 38 psi before the driver on the dyno could even get out of it.

As to why I said you were wrong? Because you said, "All the HP gains from an external gate come from diverting the wastegate flow away from the turbine out! hello backpressure." which really isn't the truth of the matter. And in a thread like this where it seems as thought 50% of the people have zero experience or knowledge in where to place a wastegate, everything can be taken out of context. The original poster even asked after some of this if he should be putting the wastegate after the turbine!

As you stated, a car with such awful pressure differential such as most 8V cars could benefit greatly from an external wastegate. Switching from a 20 mm max hole to a 38/44 or such wastegate outlet will greatly help alleviate backpressure in the manifold and keep the turbine at the needed RPM. If it gets re-introduced just after the turbine wheel so be it... most people have a 3" DP and exhaust which has enough flow capacity WITH a re-routed wastegate for over 600 WHP.

Could it be better. Yeah, absolutely. Would they see a huge gain? No idea! The tough thing is that on a stock or stockish manifold it's near impossible to get a good feed location for an external, so even if you had a great wastegate with an atmoshpere dump maybe you'd have messed up the flow inside the manifold to a point that the gains have dwindled some.

At the end of the day though I only gave what I had in real world data for people. What works on a high VE engine works on a low one as well, just to a varrying degree.

[Speedeuphoria]

Now, would they make MORE power if it were dumped? Perhaps.

I just took what you said here:



On the Lambo kits I've changed the wastegate re-circ from into the exhaust tip to 4" from the turbine housing, 90* into the donwpipe with zero power loss and zero boost control issues.

To me, re-circ into the "exhaust tip"=atmosphere, thats what it sounds like or at least as close as you can get. It depends on how close the "exhaust tip" is to the actual end of the exhaust.

I think it depends on how much power your making and what size the main exhaust pipe is. Like if your making 600whp on a single 2.5" exhaust re-circ'ing the WG, you will prob deff pick up some noticeable HP switching to divorced as the 2.5" pipe is maxed out.

If your running dual 4" and making 1000whp, then re-circ shouldn't matter much at all.

I think this is what Ondonti was saying in one of his points.

[8valves]

I just took what you said here:



To me, re-circ into the exhaust tip=atmosphere, thats what it sounds like or at least as close as you can get. It depends on how close the "tip" is to the actual end of the exhaust,

I think it depends on how much power your making and what size the main exhaust pipe is. Like if your making 600whp on a single 2.5" exhaust re-circ'ing the WG, you will prop pick up some noticeable HP switching to divorced as the 2.5" pipe is maxed out.

If your running dual 4" and making 1000whp, then re-circ shouldn't matter much at all.

I think this is what Ondonti was saying in one of his points.

If that's what he was trying to say then I apologize, I didn't pick that up out of his text.

I agree with what you wrote out completely.

The exit into the tip area is as you said, just about atmoshpere, and they run a 2.75" downpipe on each side, with a large radius 180* and one 90* bend and they're out, no mufflers or anything, for the record.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Switching from a 20 mm max hole to a 38/44 or such wastegate outlet will greatly help alleviate backpressure in the manifold and keep the turbine at the needed RPM.

My Internal gate is 28.575mm :)

[turbovanman]

Even though this thread took a bit of a turn, great info. :thumb:

I have been kind of worried my setup was maybe a bottle neck but it seems probably not. :D

[Mario]

Even though this thread took a bit of a turn, great info. :thumb:

I have been kind of worried my setup was maybe a bottle neck but it seems probably not. :D

Not that it probably really matters but that housing came from Steve Calder's T3 Powered 87 CSX.