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Captain Chaos
03-19-2006, 06:08 PM
I know there are a few guys that race their TD's in stock eliminator. I saw a blue Acclaim just Saturday at the Gatornationals. I'm considering building a bracket car, but want it to be legal for ?F/S. My question to you guys that know the rules and regulations is, what car specifically would you recommend? I want automatic for consistency, as well as intercooled for running more boost. Besides the Acclaim, I saw where someone uses a minivan. I know neither one is intercooled, so how do you combat detonation, or are you extracting power other ways besides tons of boost?
I have thought about a Shelby Lancer with an automatic, but didn't know if there was enough produced to qualify. If so I could use any 87 Lancer built to specs correct? Thanks in advance for any tips or advice.

Sean

ShelGame
03-19-2006, 09:07 PM
If you want to run I/C, you have to run a 2.2 T2. You can't intercool a 2.5 (since they were never stock that way).

As far as what combination to run. Right now, a 2.5 T1 Daytona is your best bet. The engine is factored at 150hp. The 2.5 engine i nthe Spirit/Acclaim/Lebaron (Sedan and Coupe) is factored at 183hp (due to a couple of fast runs by the very same blue Acclaim you saw in Gainsville - edit - my mistake, the car blue acclaim you saw is a different car...), and the minivans are factored at 171hp, for now. They should be going up soon due to Terry Ryan's old van running fast out west earlier this season.

The real advantage to running a T2 is you get to run the Garret turbo. Which means you can get close to 300 real hp. With the Mitsu turbo you're limited to ~250 real hp. The T2's are factored at (I think) 185hp. So, they're getting to be a better option than the 2.5.

You beat detonation by running 110+ octane race gas (race gas is required). I think Terry said he ran 20psi in his van. I plan to run 16 to start, we'll see how it goes.

Ondonti
03-20-2006, 04:52 AM
I really doubt anyone is going to run displacement tests on cars in stock eliminators.

All sorts of fun stuff you can get away with long as it all looks stock. ;)

garret turbo machined to accept some big wheels in disguise, ported heads with big valves, cams, ported 2 piece intake, ported exhaust mani, ported 2.5" swingvalve. If you have to run stock injectors, have them rebuilt for MUCH higher flow. Find a way to sneak alky into your intake. Dynotuned in a stock looking ECU box.

As Ive learned in my reading, there are the rules, and then there is the reality of what everyone is doing at the track. If there was limited boost, you would find people cheating on all their boost reference points, etc, or running a little cheater gas (nitropropane).

ShelGame
03-20-2006, 09:12 AM
Generally, no, you won't get torn down. Especially at a points meet.

But, if you win class at a national event, or set a record, or someone simply wants to protest you, they will definitely tear you down to the piston/rod. They'll measure the port and combustion chamber volumes, bore, stroke, they'll check the P/N on the piston, they'll check the P/N on the turbo (I've been told they'll even measure the c-o-m-p-r-e-s-s-or [that must be some sort of code word, it always gets edited out] and turbine housings - so the modified Mitsu that FWD sells is out) - if any of those don't match the NHRA spec, you'll get tossed.

So, yes, you COULD do all those things, but then you'd have to slow up so as not to attrach too much attention. And what would be the point of that? Would you want to build up the ultimate cheater motor, and then get beat by a guy running a legal combination because you don't want to show your hand?

Trust me, all of the guys running IHRA/NHRA know what each car should run in each class. If you run significantly faster than that, they'll know something's up and probably protest your ---.

Also, they do check fuel at all events. I wasn't allowed one of my first qualifying runs because I didn't quite get all of the pump gas out of the system when I switched to race gas. My first run, they checked fuel and it didn't pass.

The only things you listed that're legal is the tuned ECU and injectors. They look at those as the same as changing a jet in a Holley 4bbl...


I really doubt anyone is going to run displacement tests on cars in stock eliminators.

All sorts of fun stuff you can get away with long as it all looks stock. ;)

garret turbo machined to accept some big wheels in disguise, ported heads with big valves, cams, ported 2 piece intake, ported exhaust mani, ported 2.5" swingvalve. If you have to run stock injectors, have them rebuilt for MUCH higher flow. Find a way to sneak alky into your intake. Dynotuned in a stock looking ECU box.

As Ive learned in my reading, there are the rules, and then there is the reality of what everyone is doing at the track. If there was limited boost, you would find people cheating on all their boost reference points, etc, or running a little cheater gas (nitropropane).

Captain Chaos
03-20-2006, 08:26 PM
As far as what combination to run. Right now, a 2.5 T1 Daytona is your best bet. The engine is factored at 150hp. The 2.5 engine i nthe Spirit/Acclaim/Lebaron (Sedan and Coupe) is factored at 183hp


The T2's are factored at (I think) 185hp. So, they're getting to be a better option than the 2.5.
These seem to contradict each other. The first one says use the 2.5 TI Daytona, the engine is fatored at 150 hp. Then it says the T II is better becuase its fatored at 185. So which is better?

If I were to use a stick car I would just use my SRT, but want to do the auto. Is that why you suggest the TI Daytona over the T II Daytona.

PS, thanks for all the help.

ShelGame
03-20-2006, 10:28 PM
These seem to contradict each other. The first one says use the 2.5 TI Daytona, the engine is fatored at 150 hp. Then it says the T II is better becuase its fatored at 185. So which is better?

If I were to use a stick car I would just use my SRT, but want to do the auto. Is that why you suggest the TI Daytona over the T II Daytona.

PS, thanks for all the help.

The T1 Daytona is best combination right now for old school TD's. I didn't realize you had a SRT-4. I don't know what they're factored at. My guess is they're factored pretty good also, and I know they fit into AF/S due to the weight.

And, I got it wrong, the 2.5 T1 Daytona is factored at 165hp, always has been.

If the Daytona gets hit up to 171hp or 183hp (which could happen any time), then a T2 car will start to look good again.

The lower the factor, the better (from a racers standpoint). Your minimum weight is calculated by class weight break minimum X the factored power +170lbs (for driver). For BF/S, the minimum would be 16.00 X 165 + 170 = 2810lbs. A T2 Daytona running in BF/S would have to weigh 16.00 X 185 + 170 = 3130lbs. Of course, a T2 Daytona is a natural AF/S car (so,it could be lighter anyway). But, they now allow you to bump up or down a class from your cars "natural" weight class. So, you can run a T1 Daytona in A, B, or CF/S. A T2 Daytona can only run A, or BF/S.

You can run an auto in a T2 car, even though they were never produced that way. They always allow any "corporate" transmission as long as it's the same configuration as stock (ie, transverse). So, you could run an A568 in an early T1 Charger, for example.

Captain Chaos
03-21-2006, 09:56 PM
Cool.Thanks for explaining that to me.:thumb: I need to reread the rulebook, and slowly.

I just thought of another question. Could an 86 "GLHS" be used? I know NASCAR and Trans Am had homologation rules where a minimum number of cars had to be built, does NHRA do that as well? And would it factor the same as a T-II Daytona, therefore having to weigh equal? If I understand your formula it seems like it would have to have weight added to meet minimum. Sorry if I'm asking too many or too simple of a question. I really appreciate your help.

ShelGame
03-21-2006, 11:41 PM
It's not simply homolgation rules, they also require the manufacturer submit the car for approval. My original race car was a '92 2.5 T1 Daytona. But, I had to call it a '91 (there's no '92 Daytona classified, due to the low production). I switched to the '89 body to keep it all legal. Anyone who knows Daytona's would've known it wasn't a '91. And, it was slow. Too heavy.

I just checked the class guides. Yes, the '86 GLHS is in there as a T2. And, it's factored at the same 185hp as the other T2's. So, unfortunately, yes it would have to weight the same as a Daytona would in AF/S or BF/S (Omni is a "natual" A car). You might have to add a little weight to it for A, and a ton of weight to it for B. But, in reality, you'd have a hard time getting a Daytona down to A class minimum, legally.

Also, I hadn't looked at '86 before, but it seems the GLHS just got hit on Mar 7, 2006 for HP (it's factored at 185, though, just like the later T2's). I guess that particular combination was previously factored at 175. I'll have to find out about that run. I hadn't heard of anyone running a GLHS. At 175 factored hp, it actually would have been the best combination available. Of course, now that it's been hit, it's no better than any of the other T2's.

gasketmaster
03-22-2006, 04:41 AM
I've torn the cylinder head off my old minivan twice during two different Divisional races while setting the class record.I had to do it in the presents of the NHRA tech staff.They checked: deck height,bore size,stroke length,piston dish depth and diameter,combustion chamber cc's,head gasket thickness,cam lift,intake manifold part number,throttle body part number and size,turbo compressor housing part number,compressor housing inlet size,turbine housing part number,fin count on both wheels and they looked everything over for any type of portwork.I had to pull two random valves out of the head as well.They also measured the wheel base too! I felt molested after they left......LOL!!! :D

I was kinda sweatin' it the first time because I had never had the engine apart.....LOL!!! I was really hopin' that somebody hadn't takin' a grinder to anything or surfaced the crap out of the head.......LOL!!! :p

One of the downsides to the minivan combination is big flat surface area.When bracket racing (which Stock Eliminator is) a mild breeze can effect your ET's more in a vehicle with lots-o flat surface area ;)

gasketmaster
03-22-2006, 04:44 AM
If you want to run I/C, you have to run a 2.2 T2. You can't intercool a 2.5 (since they were never stock that way).

As far as what combination to run. Right now, a 2.5 T1 Daytona is your best bet. The engine is factored at 150hp. The 2.5 engine i nthe Spirit/Acclaim/Lebaron (Sedan and Coupe) is factored at 183hp (due to a couple of fast runs by the very same blue Acclaim you saw in Gainsville - edit - my mistake, the car blue acclaim you saw is a different car...), and the minivans are factored at 171hp, for now. They should be going up soon due to Terry Ryan's old van running fast out west earlier this season.

The real advantage to running a T2 is you get to run the Garret turbo. Which means you can get close to 300 real hp. With the Mitsu turbo you're limited to ~250 real hp. The T2's are factored at (I think) 185hp. So, they're getting to be a better option than the 2.5.

You beat detonation by running 110+ octane race gas (race gas is required). I think Terry said he ran 20psi in his van. I plan to run 16 to start, we'll see how it goes.

ACR,
Listen to this guy right here.............he knows what's up with this type of racing ;)

Captain Chaos
03-22-2006, 09:46 PM
ACR,
Listen to this guy right here.............he knows what's up with this type of racing ;)
Definately trying to absorb all this I can.
Oh and anyone that runs 12.69@106 in a minivan AND mitsu turbo has my undivided attention as well.:D



I just checked the class guides.
Where do you get this class guide info that is updated periodically. I looked in National Dragster, but did not see it. I'm waiting for my 06 rulebook to show up.

I appreciate all the help I can get from anyone knowledgable. I have a friend who runs a stocker Camaro and his dad had a super stock 56 Chevy. They are going to help me interpret any rules I have questions about, but I want to choose a car that jy parts are readily available for spares, and will be easy/fun to race.:thumb:

ShelGame
03-23-2006, 12:08 AM
Where do you get this class guide info that is updated periodically. I looked in National Dragster, but did not see it. I'm waiting for my 06 rulebook to show up.

I appreciate all the help I can get from anyone knowledgable. I have a friend who runs a stocker Camaro and his dad had a super stock 56 Chevy. They are going to help me interpret any rules I have questions about, but I want to choose a car that jy parts are readily available for spares, and will be easy/fun to race.:thumb:

A TD is definitely the "budget" way to class race. You could (and several people have) literally take a car off the street, bump up the boost, and run a second or more under the index. It'll take a few more tricks to be consistent, but you can go fast - legally - for next to nothing. There aren't any other cars that I'm aware of that can do that. There are some combinations that that can't get close to a second under for any amount of money.

The class guides are off the NHRA website. Go to "competition" - it's on the far right upper corner - and then pick the "classification guides" in the drop-down. On the guide page, pick your make and year, and the guide will come up as an Excel sheet in Explorer.

Captain Chaos
07-13-2006, 07:57 AM
So my Dad was talking with our friend who races in Stock and Super Stock the other night and the guy was saying there is a really fast turbo Mustang in his class that is just killing everyone and NHRA techs say there is nothing they can do to check his turbo for legitmacy other than factory part numbers.Needless to say he's a little :mad:

Captain Chaos
09-27-2006, 02:04 PM
For BF/S, the minimum would be 16.00 X 165 + 170 = 2810lbs.

So for AF/S you take the minimum from the rulebook that says 13.00-15.49 or whatever the break is? So it would read like 13.00 X 185 + 170 = legal minimum weight of car with driver?

Also looking at the NHRA spreadsheet on line 38 row O it says 12.90. Is that the class index?
http://nhra.com/tech_specs/classification/classfiles/1986DOD.xls

While surfing the NHRA site I noticed there is no specs for the 782 head castings, only the 287 and 445's are listed. How do they know you don't have some acid porting done?

ShelGame
09-27-2006, 03:23 PM
So for AF/S you take the minimum from the rulebook that says 13.00-15.49 or whatever the break is? So it would read like 13.00 X 185 + 170 = legal minimum weight of car with driver?

Yep, that's right.


Also looking at the NHRA spreadsheet on line 38 row O it says 12.90. Is that the class index?
http://nhra.com/tech_specs/classification/classfiles/1986DOD.xls


Well, that's the cars index. You compare that to the various class indicies to figure out which class it will run in. In the case of the GLHS you pointed out, it's actually lighter than the A/FS minimum (12.90 vs. 13.00 min). Luckily, NHRA allows you to move up or down 1 class. So, the '86 GLHS can only run in A/FS - as long as it meets minimum weight.


While surfing the NHRA site I noticed there is no specs for the 782 head castings, only the 287 and 445's are listed. How do they know you don't have some acid porting done?

I'm not sure what year you're looking at. But, for the '89 model years, they do list the specs for the 782 head. Keep in mind, if your car originally came with a 287 casting, that's the casting you have to run. You can't put a common block, 782 headed engine into an '86 GLHS, legally.

Captain Chaos
09-27-2006, 04:13 PM
Well, that's the cars index. You compare that to the various class indicies to figure out which class it will run in. In the case of the GLHS you pointed out, it's actually lighter than the A/FS minimum (12.90 vs. 13.00 min). Luckily, NHRA allows you to move up or down 1 class. So, the '86 GLHS can only run in A/FS - as long as it meets minimum weight.
But I use the 13.00 not the 12.90 for calculations correct?




I'm not sure what year you're looking at. But, for the '89 model years, they do list the specs for the 782 head. Keep in mind, if your car originally came with a 287 casting, that's the casting you have to run. You can't put a common block, 782 headed engine into an '86 GLHS, legally.
I was looking here:
http://nhra.com/tech_specs/runners/index.html
It says Super Stock, head volumes, but it should be the same as you can't modify their heads either.

ShelGame
09-27-2006, 10:36 PM
But I use the 13.00 not the 12.90 for calculations correct?

Correct.





I was looking here:
http://nhra.com/tech_specs/runners/index.html
It says Super Stock, head volumes, but it should be the same as you can't modify their heads either.

Look for the blueprint specs. It's on there somewhere. It has more than just the runner volumes (comb chanb cc's, casting numbers, etc.).

Honestly, I can't see them measuring the runner volumes on teardown. Superstock is allowed to port the heads, they just have to be within spec for runner volume. Not sure why that is, actually.

Captain Chaos
09-28-2006, 07:31 AM
Correct.





Look for the blueprint specs. It's on there somewhere. It has more than just the runner volumes (comb chanb cc's, casting numbers, etc.).

Honestly, I can't see them measuring the runner volumes on teardown. Superstock is allowed to port the heads, they just have to be within spec for runner volume. Not sure why that is, actually.

Thanks again.:thumb:

BF/STOCKER SPIRIT
03-20-2008, 08:45 PM
You Guys ,are Great, Turtle I ,think You Cant Run,a Lutous Head Car,like The R/t
,the Lancer Moltor Is A T3 Car?,in Nhra

BF/STOCKER SPIRIT
03-21-2008, 01:39 AM
Oops The Lancer,did Have A T1, Maybe Legal Huh Yeah!!!!

Turbo3Iroc
03-21-2008, 02:08 AM
This is pretty interesting and thanks for spelling it out Rob and Terry. I have one question though, why do you have to run race gas? Can you run meth injection instead?

ShelGame
03-21-2008, 08:08 AM
This is pretty interesting and thanks for spelling it out Rob and Terry. I have one question though, why do you have to run race gas? Can you run meth injection instead?

There's a list of approved fuels. It's to keep you from running niromethane or something in a 'stock' car. Not even pump gas is legal. Unless you can get an approved race fuel from your local gas station...

Turbo3Iroc
03-21-2008, 07:52 PM
I understand that they don't want you running nitro or other unauthorized fuels but why not pump gas?

ShelGame
03-21-2008, 09:05 PM
I understand that they don't want you running nitro or other unauthorized fuels but why not pump gas?

Becuase they tech fuel by specific gravity, which is specific to the fuel and varies with temperature. It's just too hard to get that data for every brand of pump gas out there. Then, what if it has a little water in it? You fail tech. They obviously can't open it up, and they have to tech fuel. So, you get to run only approved fuels...

tvanlant
03-21-2008, 09:39 PM
I know I'm chiming in pretty late, and that Rob has everything covered.

Just some words of advice... Don't try to cheat. The guys that are in this class are a lot smarter than most the punks you talk to on the street. They will know whats going on with your car, and you will get torn down. And if you go to any decent event, they will have random car teardowns, so you don't even have to be going fast to be chosen for teardown.

Also, the most common fuel is C16, which is somewhere around 116 octane, so the largest part of your game is going to be tuning. Figure out how to maximize your horsepower with the parts you are allowed to use. Push the motor to the limits of the fuel and squeeze every last hp out that you can.

Captain Chaos
03-21-2008, 09:49 PM
A turbo car, especially non intercooled car needs more octane than what pump gas offers. At least with the amount of boost you are forcing out of a stock turbo.However, on the flip side you want the least amount of octane you can safely get away with. Dont run 116 if your car can safely make the power on 110 or 112 if its an approved fuel.

ShelGame
03-21-2008, 10:21 PM
Figure out how to maximize your horsepower with the parts you are allowed to use. Push the motor to the limits of the fuel and squeeze every last hp out that you can.

I'd actually recommend not doing that. These cars are pretty under-factored. Meaning, they can make a lot more power than the NHRA factors them at. So, if yo umake a lot of power, you're going to go very far under the class index. You will probably get torn down (I did), and you'll piss off everyone else that runs that car/engine combination. Becasue, if you go more than 1.4 under (very easy with these cars), they will get hit for horsepower, too. Which really means they'll have to add weight. Figure out how fast you can go, then back off so you can run 1.1 under all day long. Save your best run for a year end record or the rare heads-up race.

I ran 1.68 under at the last national event. If I'd put an 'R' on the windshield, I'd have a record now. But, the 1.68 was a mistake (WG seized - again!) and I got torn down anyway. I spent the rest of the event trying not to go fast. Though, I was #1 qualifier...

tvanlant
03-22-2008, 01:37 AM
Yeah, but doing that takes a lot of the fun out of this class. Especially in the faster classes such as A-F, where no one is holding back. Every event is an all-out competition of who is faster. I know most of the front drive and slower classes are easily farther under their index, and usually qualify in the top few spots, but I just don't see how that would be as much fun having to slow your car down just to keep from getting horsepower.

Captain Chaos
03-22-2008, 08:19 AM
I agree with Rob, fly under the radar. I was told no.1 qualifyer at a div 2 meet pays $200. It may be different from div. to div. Some of that covers gaskets, and oil for reassembly. Record holder however would be cool to have on the side of your car though. Bill qualifyed no.1 with a 1.4x under at the Gators.

BF/STOCKER SPIRIT
03-22-2008, 12:14 PM
Yeah! ,its pretty fun to see ,your name on top, But wouldn't it be much more fun,To put a bunch of 30 thousand. A-F stockers,on the trailer,lol. Lot of the guys racing A,B,C stockers,are killer class/bracket racers, but hopefully we'll SHOW THEM WITH A FWD ,TD, HOPEFULLY I WILL!


HEY! TURTLE,SHELL

BF/STOCKER SPIRIT
03-22-2008, 12:18 PM
ON 'RACE JUNK' There is a 89 lebaron, 4 sale, that runs fast, but want big money 7 G's

Turbo3Iroc
03-22-2008, 11:41 PM
Becuase they tech fuel by specific gravity, which is specific to the fuel and varies with temperature. It's just too hard to get that data for every brand of pump gas out there. Then, what if it has a little water in it? You fail tech. They obviously can't open it up, and they have to tech fuel. So, you get to run only approved fuels...

Ok, I understand that a lot better. Thanks.