noisy lifters or piston slap???

[glht_omni]

well i am not sure what i have been hearing anymore.
when i first got this car running from sitting for 3 years, the engine was quiet and the exhaust was a 2.5" with a muffler, about 500 miles later i went with a full 3" and no muffler, so its loud.

i started hearing a noise after about 1000 miles of being on the road, i seemed to only hear it a little above 3k rpms and it sounds like 1-3 bad lifters.

i have pulled the valve covers to check for oiling, all of them look equally oiled except 2, 1 on the intake all the way to the driver side, it looks like that 1 is getting less oil than the rest but it does flow down the rocker and the middle 1 on the intake squirts all the way to the firewall!

all of the lifters have the plastic caps and i spun the motor by hand a couple teeth at a time to see if i could press down on any of the rockers/lifters and i cant, they all seem firm.

at idle, i am not sure if i hear a tick or or just the injectors pulsing. before i thought i could only hear it above 3k rpms, but after trying to intentially make the ticking it seems like whenever i get it from the normal vac to about 15 in of vacuum it starts and almost sounds like a diesel clunking.

it doesnt matter if i am at 2k rpm or 5krpm if i keep it in high vac i dont hear it, as soon as it touches -15in vac iit starts to get audible and seems quieter after the bosst starts to build although the loud 3" could be covering it up.

so what do you guys think, lifters or piston (wrist pin) slap???

[glht_omni]

to help you understand the sound of the noise, it sounds exactly like cold venoilas, but after it warms up, its quiet when its cold.

[cordes]

I'm going to guess wrist pins.

[glht_omni]

i dont know which one would be worse (more money) on a t3, new $400 lifters or a short block rebuild??

[cordes]

i dont know which one would be worse (more money) on a t3, new $400 lifters or a short block rebuild??

I had my 2.5 rebuilt 2 years ago to the tune of $1100. Nothing fancy either, just a rebuild with OEM quality parts and all the machining it needed. My money is on the short block over the lifters for sure.

[glht_omni]

i am sure a full rebuild would be more, i planned to re ring and put new bearings in it this winter and skip new pistons if possible,

i also planned to get a 5 angle valve job and all new seals, guides and whatever else thats needed for the head.
this lower end was supposed to only have 30k on it and i believed it when i seen the cyl walls, how clean the outside of the block was and had 150psi across all 4 perfectly.
at sdac, the noise was so quiet that pat, rob and lofinks lil bro couldnt hear it when i asked them if they could when we went for a little cruise, now i think my half deaf grandma could hear it no problem.

i have never had to deal with bad wrist pins before, does it screw up the pistons or rods? or just the wrist pin? is putting another few thousand miles on it before oct going to hurt it anymore?
i dont mind tearing it down again, but i would rather do it when its cold out and i am bored.

[cordes]

I was getting a pretty loud knock in the omni two years ago. I thought it was the bearings so I pulled it all apart. The bearings didn't look to bad, but the wrist pins had made the holes in the piston a little egg shaped. I put new pistons in for the two that were like this and new wrist pins with it and all was right in the world. Maybe I got lucky, with how bad they were? I don't really know because I have only done the one motor all by myself.

[glht_omni]

i was talking on the phone with my dad and i am gonna try what he said.
grab a buddy, a stethoscope and try that out and then try killing one cylinder at a time to see if the noise goes away to determine if its a wrist pin and which cyl it is.

i have never had a bad wrist pin, but i have had bad lifters and rod knocks, its definetly not a knock and now that its been getting louder, i really believe it is a bad wrist pin.

i just sold the 1 spare nos mahle t3 piston i had too. i guess its true...if you have the spare part you wont need it, when something fails it will be a part you dont have.

[Tony Hanna]

well i am not sure what i have been hearing anymore.
when i first got this car running from sitting for 3 years, the engine was quiet and the exhaust was a 2.5" with a muffler, about 500 miles later i went with a full 3" and no muffler, so its loud.

i started hearing a noise after about 1000 miles of being on the road, i seemed to only hear it a little above 3k rpms and it sounds like 1-3 bad lifters.

i have pulled the valve covers to check for oiling, all of them look equally oiled except 2, 1 on the intake all the way to the driver side, it looks like that 1 is getting less oil than the rest but it does flow down the rocker and the middle 1 on the intake squirts all the way to the firewall!

all of the lifters have the plastic caps and i spun the motor by hand a couple teeth at a time to see if i could press down on any of the rockers/lifters and i cant, they all seem firm.

at idle, i am not sure if i hear a tick or or just the injectors pulsing. before i thought i could only hear it above 3k rpms, but after trying to intentially make the ticking it seems like whenever i get it from the normal vac to about 15 in of vacuum it starts and almost sounds like a diesel clunking.

it doesnt matter if i am at 2k rpm or 5krpm if i keep it in high vac i dont hear it, as soon as it touches -15in vac iit starts to get audible and seems quieter after the bosst starts to build although the loud 3" could be covering it up.

so what do you guys think, lifters or piston (wrist pin) slap???

My Sundance sounds exactly like you're describing. The sad part is that I just had the head off to swap turbos and it would have been easy to pull the pan and get it sorted out then. It didn't seem that bad before, but it's getting really noticeable now. It's to the point where I suspect the noise is causing the knock sensor to false trigger.:mad: It's got a fresh set of bearings and carries great oil pressure, so I can rule that out. I wonder if switching to a heavier wt. oil would quiet it down any. I'm in prettymuch the same shape with wanting to wait until winter to pull it apart, but not wanting to quit driving it between now and then.


I was getting a pretty loud knock in the omni two years ago. I thought it was the bearings so I pulled it all apart. The bearings didn't look to bad, but the wrist pins had made the holes in the piston a little egg shaped. I put new pistons in for the two that were like this and new wrist pins with it and all was right in the world. Maybe I got lucky, with how bad they were? I don't really know because I have only done the one motor all by myself.

Out of curiosity, which rods were you running? I'm running the floating pin rods and really hoping that installing a new set of wrist pin bushings in the rods will take care of it. The new bushings are only $12 or so vs. $35 x 4 for the pistons plus around $80 for new rings. I guess I should probably go ahead and re-ring it anyway, but the bores were in such good shape when I had the head off that I hate to fool with it.

Thanks,
Tony

[glht_omni]

i know my 88 t1 shadow had a rod knock when i bought it and i threw in a bootle of lucas and drove it home easy, swapped the bearing out with a teflon coated one and beat the snot out of it for 7k miles until it came back knockin and swapped in a built 2.2 cb.

i just hope it doesnt screw up a piston, even the forged mahles cost $100 a pop and i just sold 1 for $70 in a pinch.

i would like to get away with just freshing up the short block, a valve job and concentrate on ported manifolds and other go fast parts instead of spending a couple grand on a full rebuild

[Tony Hanna]

i know my 88 t1 shadow had a rod knock when i bought it and i threw in a bootle of lucas and drove it home easy, swapped the bearing out with a teflon coated one and beat the snot out of it for 7k miles until it came back knockin and swapped in a built 2.2 cb.

i just hope it doesnt screw up a piston, even the forged mahles cost $100 a pop and i just sold 1 for $70 in a pinch.

i would like to get away with just freshing up the short block, a valve job and concentrate on ported manifolds and other go fast parts instead of spending a couple grand on a full rebuild

I know what you mean about the pistons. The sad part is that I have a set of brand new Mahles I bought from FWDP a few years ago for a rebuild on a different car that never happened. The only problem is that they're oversize and this block really doesn't need bored.

I think what I'm going to do is pull mine apart, measure the pins, measure the wrist pin hole in the pistons, and measure the bushings in the small end of the rods. I really hope I can get away with just replacing those bushings, but if not I guess I'll see if I can send the oversize Mahles back to FWDP in exchange for credit toward a set of stock size. If that won't fly, then try to sell them here so I can buy a stock size set.

Tony

[cordes]

Mine were T2 rods. It was an 87 TII motor, and I pulled it apart cleaned everything replaced all the bearings, did a quick hone, reringed it, new wrist pins and pistons and I was done with it. I probably have 5-10K miles on it since this and it is running like a champ and sounding great.

[glht_omni]

brian, did yours start out light and slowly get louder or did it just get loud quick?
are oversized wristpins available for these cars?

[cordes]

It was progressive in the way it got louder. I am sure that you could get larger wrist pins, but then you would have to get the rods machined etc.

[turbovanman²]

Do you have a sound clip?

When you check the lifters, remove the valve covers and check the up and down movement of the rocker arm. The ones you can, the lifters are bad, if you can't, they are good.

You can oversize the wrist pins but why? You would have to remachine the stock pistons which there probably isn't enough meat left.

If indeed it is wrist pin noise, usually the piston wears, followed by the pin. I had a 2.5 with a bad noise, replace the pins, helped alot but it was still there.

[glht_omni]

i'll get a sound clip for you one in the driveway and maybe one in the car showing the gauges.

i ran it for a min before i pulled the covers to check the lifters and i rotated the crank a tooth or 2 at a time for a full revolution checking and trying try to push down on them, but they were all firm. most bad lifters i have had didnt get louder, just faster as you rev, this is different.

it really sounds like cold venolias or a cold diesel engine at start up, like a clunk/rattle.

going to get a sound clip.....

[turzbo]

my 88 2.2 had that kinda problem untill it warmed up.

[glht_omni]

well i have to wait for the batteries to charge.

i just warmed it up and at idle i could get a good clip of the light ticking, could be injectors clicking buts its kinda loud for injectors.
but when i bring the rpms up in neutral i hear it briefly and kinda quiet, its louder when i am driving in the car and next to a car, i can hod it at 15" of vac and hear it continously, so i'll try to get a clip that way.

[glht_omni]

my 88 2.2 had that kinda problem untill it warmed up.

this is quiet cold and gets louder as its warmer and even louder after spirited driving.

[cordes]

this is quiet cold and gets louder as its warmer and even louder after spirited driving.

That sounds about right.

[glht_omni]

took some sound clips, but the noise isnt loud enough and the exhaust is too loud.

i did stop over at my buddy mikes shop, MRX MOTORS and he said its most likely a wrist pin.
i want to hurry up and get a winter beater early so i can put the r/t up early before it gets too bad..

so it looks like i might as well do it right and do a full rebuild on the lower end.
mike showed me his custom diamond pistons and they look awesome, i need to get a pic of them but the dish is sweet, instead of having the squared edge in the bottom of the dish, its a smooth gradual slope into the dish.

i planned on porting the head and getting all the 3 bar stuff this winter, but now i think i might just spend the extra cash into the lower end and porting the head and manifolds, put a big fmic on it and put it all back together before spring still running the stock turbo and 15psi. then hope to have a big turbo, 3bar, WB and alky before the next season is over.

it would be interesting to see what all the porting and a new solid bottem end will do on 15psi and the stock garrett.

[turbovanman²]

I've seen the photos of the pistons on Ebay, they do look nice.

As for wrist pin noise, keep driving it, I've never seen a motor blow up due to it, its more annoying than anything. I drove mine for a year, beating the crap out of it, lol!

[glht_omni]

they are a little expensive, almost $600 for a set, the funny thing is mikes related by marriage to the venolia family but he prefers diamonds and has been using them for a few years now.

it is annoying as hell, thanks i didnt know if there was any potential damage by me driving it for another 2 months.

well at least i have a real reason to take everything apart for cleaning and painting, last time i just did what i could with the head off. i am going for jackson detail under the hood this winter, minus the nuts and bolts, i dont have extra money for all new SS.

[glht_omni]

ok, its getting real weird now. i drove about a mile awy from home and it stalled, i started it back up and its running like crap, it will accelerate smoothly, but whenever i left of the gas to turn or brake, it starts to stumble, the vac and rpms are up and down and then it will stall, it will start right back up, but stall whenever i let off the gas.

AND it is now making a horrible clanking and ear piercing schreeching, sounds like a belt, but its way worse and is coming from the valve cover.
its so bad, i dont even want to start it but i might for audio so you guys can hear it.

I ALSO now know i have at least 1 bad lifter on the exhaust side, when it was on the small end of the lobe, it had slack.
my newest compression check reveals, 145, 145, 125, 135.

here is the audio from after the compression check and after the stalling and stumbling BUT BEFORE the new horrid screeching noise.

let me know what you think.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/th_rtannoyingclacking001.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/?action=view&current=rtannoyingclacking001.flv)

[turbovanman²]

DO NOT RUN IT ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!

Thats a rod knock, OUCH!

[glht_omni]

i reallly dont think it is man, i have had plenty of rod knocks in my life and this doesnt sound deep enough or consistent enough. its louder now for sure but it still has a different clank.

maybe your right and its just a odd sounding rod knock, but either way, yeah i decided earlier its going to be put up early for the winter and get ripped down for a restore and full engine rebuild with all the detailng, painting and the works. it probably wont be any faster next spring, but it will be right and ready for big HP .

[glht_omni]

i will pull the pan tomorrow and see if i can find anything.
i just got a boost controller and a narrow band gauge in the mail today....wont be needing that:(

[turbovanman²]

Dude, I've heard that sound a 1000 times, trust me, thats a rod knock or 2, :(

Checking the bearings doesn't take long, let us know what you find.

[glht_omni]

will do!

damn this sucks though, i always had good oil pressure and still do, i wonder why the failure?

its got 133k on the clock, but was supposed to be rebuilt 30k or so ago and the block looks to clean to be non rebuilt, i dont know i guess i am just worrying about the past now.

time to find a turbo van for the winter!

[cordes]

I would definitely say rod knock too. Especially if it has started screeching. Hopefully you didn't spin a bearing. That is much more violent than when I had some wrist pin noise.

[Tony Hanna]

That sounds alot like the Sundance did with it's original engine. I can't remember now if it had 1 spun rod bearing or 2. I hate that for you, but if you quit running it now, you'll likely be able to get away with having the crank turned and the rods reconditioned. Running it like that could lead to windowing your block and damaging the crank and rod(s) beyond repair.

Weird that it still carries good oil pressure though.

[2.216VTurbo]

Josh, sadly I'm with Simon, Tony and Brian:( That motor is done! dont't run it another minute! Could be a tear down and a resonably minor fix right now but if it runs any more its gonna be REPLACE the crank and a rod instead of turn/resize. Might still be a ring and bearing job...

[glht_omni]

yeah, its horrible sounding for sure, its done for the year.
i wont just patch it and put it back together, i'll just do a proper full rebuild so i know its good for awhile. it was going to the garage for the nast winter in a month anyways.

thanks for the care and concern guys, it was a fun year with it though.

[turbovanman²]

You still gotta take the pan off, :o

[Ondonti]

Sounds like you have put a lot of miles on it with that knock :(

[glht_omni]

well it was so light, i swore it was a lifter (and could have been as i have at least 1 bad 1 i found). then it sounded like a wrist pin, only making noise at certain vacuum and rpms.
the loud clanking and screeching happened as i was turning onto my block and i shut it off immediately.

since the light tick, it has been 1000 miles, since it got a little louder and i thought it was a wrist pin, maybe 100 miles, since the noise in the video 1/4 miles and since the loud clanking and screeching, 50 foot.

i just started working for mike russo at MRX motors today, swapped a trans, replaced some ball joints and stripped down a tbi shadow all today, so i am beat and might not get around to pulling the pan today, but i bet its got some decent shavings in it.

[glht_omni]

got the pan off today.
the magnetic oil drain plug had crap all around it, the pan had alot of fine metal dust in it.
the #1 rod bearing is perfect, #2 and #3 were starting to get a little rough and #4 slipped, spun and melted the two hallves of the rod bearing together and the crank journal is rough, but should be able to get away with .010" or .020" turning.
i didnt check the main bearings but they are probably fine.

here is the carnage.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/rodknockinbearing001.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/rodknockinbearing002.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/rodknockinbearing003.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/rodknockinbearing004.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/rodknockinbearing005.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/rodknockinbearing006.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/jkp9900/rodknockinbearing009.jpg

[Turbo3Iroc]

Atleast you found the prob. You still going to Norwalk?

You going to pull the I shaft also? I usually see that they are beat up a bit on most engines with a few miles on them.

[glht_omni]

i may still go to norwalk, either ride out in my blazer or the 66'. i am not in no hurry to put it back together though, my compression the day before was 145-145-125-135 and last mar. it was 150 all 4, as far as i am concerned the season is over. i am going to redo the whole engine, rings, pistons, bearings, etc., yank the balance shaft and maybe even throw in a cryo i shaft.
i want to spend some good money and do it right so the next year or 2 i can concentrate on more mods with it and know it will handle it and last for a few years.

[Turbo3Iroc]

Yea it sucks to shelve the season but it's best to do it right now than again later.

[glht_omni]

exactly, plus the extra time and money to throw it back together now and just take it back apart in a couple months anyways.
i still want to go camping at norwalk and hang out with all you guys and get to sit back and watch some races, just got to talk the girlfriend into going.

[turbovanman²]

I hate it when I am right, :(

I would also bet you have some main bearing damage and possibly thrust damage on the crank.

[glht_omni]

well since your going to jinx me on the mains, i'll have to pull the caps now and see how they look, lol. what exacty is thrust damage?

[Turbo3Iroc]

Thrust damage is on the side of the #3. You will see that bearing is bigger than the others.

[iTurbo]

Last TIII I had rebuilt had really bad thrust bearing damage. Enough to push/pull the crank 1/8" out of the engine (crankwalk). Sure enough, it needed a new crank so I made a 2.5L out of it. My intermediate shaft bushings were heavily damaged as well but the I-shaft itself was fine.

[glht_omni]

i dont want to miss or skip over anything, its getting completley overhauled, i am just going to take my time, clean and paint a few things at a time and wrap and box them untill i have the money all together to start machining and buying rebuild parts.

i have from now untill sdac 19 to get it all the way i want it, maybe even get my dad to repaint the whole car while its apart.

[turbovanman²]

well since your going to jinx me on the mains, i'll have to pull the caps now and see how they look, lol. what exacty is thrust damage?

The middle bearing is the thrust bearing, look at the side flange for copper showing and the side of the crank for wear, its pretty easy to spot.