1990 Olds Cutlass Ciera...

[Spraynlog]

This car belongs to a friend of my daughters, and I was asked to see if I could get it running right.

It starts and runs OK when cold, but once warmed up, it dies after about 15-20 minutes and won't start again until it cools off. So far I put on a new fuel filter, but no change. (the date stamp on the old filter was 2001) I then took it to a 'Shucks' auto parts store and got the codes pulled from the computer...there were no codes. It has a DIS which uses a cam position sensor and a crank position sensor, but with no codes showing, it seems like an expensive crap shoot replacing parts to see if it solves the problem.

The car itself is a shabby junker, with rusting paint job, 170K, and various dings and dents. Probably not worth more than $400. I have recommended she sell it to the junk yard for some cash to put towards something better.

Anybody got an easy fix?

[Pat]

I had a similiar problem with an '87 2.5 Grand Am way back when and ended up replacing a bunch of crap to get it solved. If I recall correctly (this was probably 10 years ago), I swapped the computer, the coil packs and the cam sensor and the problems went away. Car ran like a top for years after.

[88_pacifica]

Is this a 4 cyl or 6? The control module tends to run hot on the 6's but I need a little more info before I can diagnose.

[ekimdam]

+1^^

Sounds like a typical ICM or CPS heatsoak failure.

[Spraynlog]

Is this a 4 cyl or 6? The control module tends to run hot on the 6's but I need a little more info before I can diagnose.It has a 3.3 V-6 /automatic.

Possible culprits I can think of: cam sensor, crank sensor, fuel pump, coil pack/ignition module, coolant temp sensor (?) Purchase any 2 of these, and youv'e likely exceeded the value of the car.:o

[JDAWG]

just a fyi you can check codes yourself

Turn ignition switch to OFF position
Locate Data Link Connector (DLC), see image below.
Jumper the A&B terminals(a paper clip or a jumper wire work ok)
Turn Ignition switch to ON position.
Count the flashes on the "CHECK ENGINE" or "SERVICE ENGINE" light.
FLASH, pause, FLASH, FLASH = code 12
NOTE: Some 94 & 95 models do not have the B terminal. In which case a scanner is required.
NOTE: Some 94 & 95 models that DO have the A & B terminals still require a scanner.
All vehicles after 96 are OBDII,and require a scanner to access them.
Images available only to Customers.


12 Pin DLC
A - Ground F - TCC
B - Test Terminal G - Fuel Pump
C - Air Injection H - Brake Sense Speed Input
E - Serial Data M - Serial Data

[88_pacifica]

It has a 3.3 V-6 /automatic.

Possible culprits I can think of: cam sensor, crank sensor, fuel pump, coil pack/ignition module, coolant temp sensor (?) Purchase any 2 of these, and youv'e likely exceeded the value of the car.:o

Yep, I had a 93 Grand Am with that motor and I'm driving a Buick Century with that same one now. It's a great motor IMO and I got rid of the old GA because of the body, the motor was still REALLY strong(240K). I know it had plenty of life left in it.

It is pricey, but there are a few things that you can try. It's NOT the following: coil packs, temp sensor, cam sensor, or the intake related sensors. It will be either the ignition module, crank sensor, OR the fuel pump. I changed the FP at the same time that I did the module so I can't be 100% sure what fixed it. Here is how you find out:

I would drive it till stalls out and then immediately check the FP. If it's extremely low, then you have the culprit. However, I am leaning more towards the module at this point as that is more common. The crank sensor SOMETIMES will jiggle loose and wear against the crank pulley, so be sure to make sure it is in good shape as well. The Ignition module won't throw a code and the crank sensor code won't stay in the "history" when it's rechecked, so do a visual and "wiggle" test on the crank side and you can "try" and reapply some lithium grease under the ignition module and see if that helps. Occasionally it will prolong replacement, but it's a 50/50 crapshoot...

[turbovanman²]

3.3 is a wicked motor, almost as good as the 3.8.

Guessing, my guess would be ignition module or crank sensor.

[Big_P]

It has a 3.3 V-6 /automatic.

Possible culprits I can think of: cam sensor, crank sensor, fuel pump, coil pack/ignition module, coolant temp sensor (?) Purchase any 2 of these, and youv'e likely exceeded the value of the car.:o

We had a car similar to that come in our shop. After 10-15 mins, it would cut off.

When we viewed the datastream, after a certain amount of time the sensors were giving very erratic readings.

A new PCM fixed it.

[88_pacifica]

We had a car similar to that come in our shop. After 10-15 mins, it would cut off.

When we viewed the datastream, after a certain amount of time the sensors were giving very erratic readings.

A new PCM fixed it.

I have heard of this too. Sometimes the control modules will just "fail" but before you fork out the money for that I would look at the aforementioned tests. :nod:

[Spraynlog]

Yep, I had a 93 Grand Am with that motor and I'm driving a Buick Century with that same one now. It's a great motor IMO and I got rid of the old GA because of the body, the motor was still REALLY strong(240K). I know it had plenty of life left in it.

It is pricey, but there are a few things that you can try. It's NOT the following: coil packs, temp sensor, cam sensor, or the intake related sensors. It will be either the ignition module, crank sensor, OR the fuel pump. I changed the FP at the same time that I did the module so I can't be 100% sure what fixed it. Here is how you find out:

I would drive it till stalls out and then immediately check the FP. If it's extremely low, then you have the culprit. However, I am leaning more towards the module at this point as that is more common. The crank sensor SOMETIMES will jiggle loose and wear against the crank pulley, so be sure to make sure it is in good shape as well. The Ignition module won't throw a code and the crank sensor code won't stay in the "history" when it's rechecked, so do a visual and "wiggle" test on the crank side and you can "try" and reapply some lithium grease under the ignition module and see if that helps. Occasionally it will prolong replacement, but it's a 50/50 crapshoot...Thanks for the help!:thumb: I'll put the fuel pressure gauge on it and run it to stall and see what the pressure is. It was 34 lbs after the filter change.(vacuum line on) I'll try to get a JY ignition module for cheap to see if that cures it. If not, I'll be able to return it and get my $$ back. Not the best, but the girl in question isn't doing well financially.:o

[looneytuner]

I have a 96 Olds that would start limping. The parts stores checked the coil pack and said it was good. Everyone I talked to said the cps. So I replaced it with no change. It was the fuel pump dying. Still have a good used cps.

[Spraynlog]

OK, I just got through running it until it stalled. Hooked the FP gauge and cranked it, got 42 lbs pressure. I'll go get an ignition module tomorrow.

[black86glhs]

OK, I just got through running it until it stalled. Hooked the FP gauge and cranked it, got 42 lbs pressure. I'll go get an ignition module tomorrow.
Before you do that. Get a long screwdriver or really long 3/8" extension(you can use a couple to make it long enough, just tape them at the connection so they won't come apart). With the engine running, lightly tap on the crank sensor. If it stumbles or dies, The crank sensor is bad. If not, proceed to look at the module.

[88_pacifica]

Before you do that. Get a long screwdriver or really long 3/8" extension(you can use a couple to make it long enough, just tape them at the connection so they won't come apart). With the engine running, lightly tap on the crank sensor. If it stumbles or dies, The crank sensor is bad. If not, proceed to look at the module.

Correct...

[Vigo]

you can usually read a/c voltage off the cam or crank sensors with a voltmeter. with a graphing one its very helpful. some cheap meters wont read fast enough to help tho.

[88_pacifica]

yeah... what happened here? What was the outcome?

[black86glhs]

Yeah....I've been up all weekend wondering....LOL.

[Spraynlog]

Yeah....I've been up all weekend wondering....LOL.
Well, I ran it again and tapped on the CPS while it was running. No problems with that, it didn't hiccup at all. My next move was to head to the JY and get another ICM and swap it out. I called the girl involved to let her know what was up, and she just said to forget it, she didn't want to deal with owning a car for now. So it looks like it will go to the scrap man.

Hey, I tried!:o I must say, however, that you guys gave me some good insights! I looked at some GM trouble shooting sites, but you gave me the best info.:thumb: Yay for Turbo-Mopar!:bump2:

[88_pacifica]

Well, I ran it again and tapped on the CPS while it was running. No problems with that, it didn't hiccup at all. My next move was to head to the JY and get another ICM and swap it out. I called the girl involved to let her know what was up, and she just said to forget it, she didn't want to deal with owning a car for now. So it looks like it will go to the scrap man.

Hey, I tried!:o I must say, however, that you guys gave me some good insights! I looked at some GM trouble shooting sites, but you gave me the best info.:thumb: Yay for Turbo-Mopar!:bump2:

I was hoping to see what it was. Oh well, at least tell me that the car was a total rusting heap? I would die if it had lots-o-life left. :(

[Spraynlog]

I was hoping to see what it was. Oh well, at least tell me that the car was a total rusting heap? I would die if it had lots-o-life left. :(The car was rusting badly on the outside, esp. the roof and trunk lid. Pieces of the window trim were gone, and had been filled in with RTV. The interior was losing trim parts in various places and the headliner was starting to go. The transmission also had a 1-2 shift problem, you had to let off the gas to get it to go into 2nd. Other than that, it was a cherry!:p

[88_pacifica]

The car was rusting badly on the outside, esp. the roof and trunk lid. Pieces of the window trim were gone, and had been filled in with RTV. The interior was losing trim parts in various places and the headliner was starting to go. The transmission also had a 1-2 shift problem, you had to let off the gas to get it to go into 2nd. Other than that, it was a cherry!:p

cool... ;) Sounds like a TD. :thumb:

Now I can sleep better. :D

[Spraynlog]

Well, I'm bringing this back from the dead. Now that it has started raining and getting cold, the girl would like it running again!:rolleyes:

I got a JY ignition control module with coil pack and swapped it out. It took awhile to get the car started, since it has been sitting for 2+ months. The blasted thing is still doing the same thing, it dies after about 20 minutes of running. So what is next, the PCM?

After all this time, I'll go through what I have done. 1.Replaced fuel filter. 2. tested fuel pressure after the car had run 20 minutes and died, came out at 42psi. 3. Checked for codes, none listed. 4. Got the car running and tapped on the crank sensor with a screwdriver to see if it caused problems. It kept running fine. 5. Replaced the ICM/coil pack with a JY unit. No change.

So, feed back is welcome! I'm not a big GM guy, just trying to help friends out. Where is the PCM located? Any ideas on what years and brands interchange? Will a Buick or Pontiac PCM work in an Olds?

[black86glhs]

The ECM will be behind the glove box. Try tapping on it while it is running and see if it stumbles or stalls. Will it restart after the stall? Honestly, you won't get a code from it. OBD1 GM's don't throw codes like Ford and Dodges. The OBDII stuff is a different story. Personally, I'm thinking ECM. As long as it comes out of a 3.3 car, it should work. Just swap over the chip from the old one to the used one.

[Spraynlog]

The ECM will be behind the glove box. Try tapping on it while it is running and see if it stumbles or stalls. Will it restart after the stall? Honestly, you won't get a code from it. OBD1 GM's don't throw codes like Ford and Dodges. The OBDII stuff is a different story. Personally, I'm thinking ECM. As long as it comes out of a 3.3 car, it should work. Just swap over the chip from the old one to the used one.It won't restart until it cools down. It will then run for another 20 minutes or so and die.

[black86glhs]

If only you had a scantool. I'de probably be able to tell you where to go just from the readings. Can you spray into the intake and make it run after it stalls?

[turbovanman²]

There is a number on the case of the ecm, you can use that too find or locate a used one. Swap the prom as noted earlier, its behind a cover thats held on with 1/4" bolt heads or torx. +2 on tapping it.

It could be the crank sensor is bad, this make sense due to the runs until warm then dies, and wont' restart until cold. Tapping them doesn't always show them as a problem. A labscope would really be helpful at this time.

Next time it dies, check for spark.

[black86glhs]

There is a number on the case of the ecm, you can use that too find or locate a used one. Swap the prom as noted earlier, its behind a cover thats held on with 1/4" bolt heads or torx. +2 on tapping it.

It could be the crank sensor is bad, this make sense due to the runs until warm then dies, and wont' restart until cold. Tapping them doesn't always show them as a problem. A labscope would really be helpful at this time.

Next time it dies, check for spark.+100000....where I was headed.:clap: