more hybrid questions

[JuXsA]

I am going to get a hybrid. I am already spending a bunch of money on everything else, might aswell get a good turbo to go with it.

I am thinking about going with fwdperformance hybrid package for $999. The specs I am looking at are a:
Exhast .63ar stage 1 wheel
Compressor TO4B either super46 trim or super50 trim wheel
I want to go with the TO4B housing because it bolts right up and you don't have to do any crazy stuff to get it to fit right like you do with the TO4E housing.

So what I am trying to figure out is what wheel should I go with? I am not trying to make 400hp. This is a DD road warrior. Stock head, but built up 2.5 short block (forged pistons). Having quick boost response is a must. I would like it to spool up as quick or nearly as quick as a super 60. I don't want to have to wait untill 3k rpms for boost and 4k rpms till I am making power.

So I am just stuck on which compressor wheel to use. Give me some input guys.:D

[cordes]

First off, you can't have it all. I have had two different ported heads on my omni, and they are not super high flow yet a significant increase in CFMs compared to stock. That being said, they won't get the turbo to the boost level that you will need to reach 400HP. At the RPMs you are talking about.

Moreover, I hope you are looking for 400 crank HP, because I don't even see that happening on a stock head.

Also, I would look into a GT series turbo, as you will need all you can get if you are looking to lay down that kind of power.

If that is not in your budget, I would suggest that you go with a To4E housing. It is really not that bad to get it to work once you have done it. You can check out the install on my site, and that should get you thorough it with no problem.

I think you might want to start with a more resonable HP goal, and move up from there.

Oh, and forget about the stage I wheel for that HP level. I would go for a stage III wheel, but there goes your streetability factor.

[JuXsA]

I am aiming for around 300hp street.... but I am also going for efficiency. If I can run lower boost and make the same power thats what I want to do.... The reason why I am not going with the TO4E is because I dont want to have to deal with shaving material off my head or welding elbows on the compressor housing.

[Frank]

Yeh but you are looking for efficency. If you are droping that much money, then spend extra and get a GT28 series turbo. You wont get to make much more then 375 crank hp, but you will get great spool up etc with a great compressor housing. A GT2860RS or higher should do the trick with the typical .63 a/r housing.


Frank

[GLHSKEN]

To4e with a stock Compressor cover.

Stock head you are not going to do what you want. Bottom line. you will not spool until 4k rpm. When it spools, it will be viscious.. Boost builds slowly to 4k rpm (about 10psi) by 42-4300, you are at your set boost level. In my case it was 22psi.

The TO4B is not the best map for these cars.

[JuXsA]

Problem with a GT turbo is that wouldn't it almost doubles the cost of the turbo? A GT Turbo alone (on tu.com and fwd) costs 4-5 hundred more then the complete hybrid package.

Glhsken, when your saying I won't really be building boost untill 4k rpms, what stage exhaust wheel are you talking about? I am just going to use a first stage exhaust wheel in a .63 housing. Since its using the same size exhaust wheel and housing as a Super 60 turbo I would think the turbo lag would be about the same. Besides isn't the TO4B housing the same as the original Super 60 housing, just ported out?

Does the compressor wheel effect spool up time that much?
I know that the TO4E is a better choice of compressor housing, but the TO4B is extremely much more convenient in installation.

[GLHSKEN]

The E or B refers to the compressor wheel and it's characteristics, low pressure or high pressure flow. B's move large masses of air at low pressure. E's are pressure wheels. TM's like pressure wheels due to the relatively inefficient heads.

It's not the turbine side you have to worry about. It's the larger T04 compressor wheel that will cause the lag. I was running a stage II and hoinestly do not think a stage I wheel would have helped spool-up except minimally.

The super 60 is a T03 series wheel. I'm not positive, but really do not think it would come with a T04 cover at all.

[JuXsA]

is there any one else who is running around with a hybrid turbo on a 2.5 with similer specs as the one I'm looking at... I would like to talk to them about how they feel about the setup....

Does the size of the compressor wheel affect spool uptime greatly?

[Frank]

yes it does effect spool time.

[JuXsA]

So what about a super 46 trim wheel.... would that have a pretty quick spool time? I would like to have a turbo that allows me to make more power then a super 60 but has quick boost response aswell.

[GLHSKEN]

NOW you say 2.5L... That would have helped GREATLY in the 1st place. A 2.5 will spool a hybrid easier with a stock head.

Still the to4b is a poor choice. Ask Chris W at TU... He will steer you to the right turbo.

[89DaytonaTII]

He just means a B series cover on an E series wheel, it's slightly smaller and easier to get the piping around the head.

If you are worried about spool up I would with the 46 instead then, simple enough :) It'll still make over 300whp and be efficient doing it.

[t3rse]

if your car is a stick you can always shift into your boost window :D

you should spend the money and port your head, it is just as important as a good turbo. else it's gonna boost stack reguardless.

[JuXsA]

I may port the head, but I am waiting to see if someone comes out with a 16v hybrid package before I spend the money on getting an 8v head to flow not as good as a stock 16v head...
So a super46 trim sounds like the way to go... Flows a good bit more air then a super60 turbo, but should spool fairly quick...

I said that I had a 2.5 in my first post...

Chris has said that the TO4B is not a good choice and that its better to go with a TO4E. I agree with that a TO4E is a better choice, but then he also trys to sell the header with it because the TO4E is not worth it because the the stock header sucks and you have to add those elbows....
I am not going to spend 500 on a header for a head that flows like crap.

Cindy says that the TO4B is a great compressor for those who want to make more power then the super 60 permits, but are also not trying to make 400hp. She says it a great Hybrid for a daily driver. I am also going to be using an Air to water intercooler so I will have plenty of cooling.

The car is stick. Its a CSXT but I have an A555 that I pulled out of a Lancer Shelby. I need to get that to a transmission place to have them replace the gaskets and seals....

To the guy who recommended the GT turbo... tell me about it and how much does that turbo cost? Who would I get it from. I am really looking for a bolt-on or near bolt-on application for ease of installation.

Thanks

[Frank]

Ok, honestly, your stuck between a rock and a hard place. A place where most of us find ourselves alot. Its all a balancing act that can be rather difficult at times.

My suggestion of a GT turbo was because of your call for efficency and fast spool times in comparison to a Super50 trim T04E Hybrid since you have a pretty hard HP limit, you dont need to oversize. However the Super46 is a comparable setup with a Stage2 T3 Turbine.

Upgrade to a TU header and 3" swingvalve and well it will be pretty impressive with a Super46. The GT turbos have always appealed to me, but as someone stated, the TU and 3" swingvalve are better buys since those arent always garrentteed to work with those parts.


Frank

[JuXsA]

yeah but IMO they hybrid header just isn't worth the money. If our heads flowed more like a 16v head then what it does stock then I would likely get the header... but if you add in the cost of porting an 8v and the cost of a header and the cost of an intake, you could have a good 16v setup and make more power then you would with the header and ported head.

[Frank]

There is that rock and a hard place again.

[GLHSKEN]

JuXsa, sorry didn't see the 2.5L reference before.

How bout this... buddy's car, 2.5L ported stock exhaust manifold T3/4E 50 trim, Stoick T3 cover machined for the t4 comp wheel. stock head 3 " exhaust. 331 whp 370 wtq 2.5L .63AR stage II turbine spooled fine.

bottom line. You do not want a B wheel.

[JuXsA]

no prob dude.

When you say I don't want a b wheel I am not sure what you mean. I know that the TO4E and TO4B are different size housings but are the compressor wheel different between housings?

Besides that, wouldn't a TO4B housing be better then a ported T3 housing?

How quickly did your friends setup spool? Roughly when did he start making boost? When did he hit max boost?

I am still undecided on whether to go with a 46trim or 50 trim, or if I am going to use a super trim or not. I thought I was good to go with a stage 1 wheel but maybe a stage 2 would be best.... but I want better street performance then I do drag performance...I can always get a bigger stage turbine wheel when I get port work or a 16v head.

Here is a little more info on what I want to build.

88CSXT
2.5CB
wiseco pistons
rotating assembly balanced
unknown turbo but it will be the fwdp hybrid package
2.5in SV
2.5in DP (might go witha 3in dp... unknown)
smashed out cat
2.5in exhaust
TU cal
+40's
stock head
stock intake
stock exhaust (unless I can get one ported for trade for one of my ICs)
Big Air to Water IC
DSM BOV

My goal is to have 300whp (and a good bit more tourque) or near it in street form. I would like to be making that power at 12-15psi (unsure how realistic that is) I just can't put enough emphasis on quick spool up:D

Thanks for all the help here guys

[GLHSKEN]

When I say E v/s B I'm speaking compressor wheel. The B wheel is different.

Warrens set-up was spooling HARD at 3500 rpm...

With a 2.5L you should go with at least a stage II.. they definately spool harder down low. I would also go with the 50 trim.. For a 2.2L and street use, maybe a 46 trim.

[JuXsA]

hmmmm so whats the difference between a TO4B 50trim wheel versus a TO4E 50 trim wheel? I thought the wheels were the same size, just the housings were different

[turbovanman²]

I am still undecided on whether to go with a 46trim or 50 trim, or if I am going to use a super trim or not. I thought I was good to go with a stage 1 wheel but maybe a stage 2 would be best.... but I want better street performance then I do drag performance...I can always get a bigger stage turbine wheel when I get port work or a 16v head.

Here is a little more info on what I want to build.


My goal is to have 300whp (and a good bit more tourque) or near it in street form. I would like to be making that power at 12-15psi (unsure how realistic that is) I just can't put enough emphasis on quick spool up:D

Thanks for all the help here guys

I would go with the 50 trim, stage II. To change stages later on means a complete turbo overhaul as the turbine wheel is part of the shaft. You can run a .48 housing for quick spool as you want this as a DD. If that is too much of a cork after you have it running, its not a big deal to switch over to a .63 housing.

You won't make 300 whp at 15 psi on that turbo, stock head, stock intake and stock ex manifold. If you get a fully ported intake, Steve M head, header, you might be able to, but probably unlikely unless you get a bigger turbo.
My .02 cents.

[JuXsA]

its looking like I am going to go with a TO4E compressor housing with a 50trim wheel. Just need to find out if the warrenty is voided if an elbow is welded on to the compressor:D Still not sure what turbine I'm gonna use.... I think a .63 with a stage 1 wheel would be the best bet for a DD that has a stock head.

[GLHS592]

You could use a rubber elbow if the warranty concerns you.

[turbovanman²]

its looking like I am going to go with a TO4E compressor housing with a 50trim wheel. Just need to find out if the warrenty is voided if an elbow is welded on to the compressor:D Still not sure what turbine I'm gonna use.... I think a .63 with a stage 1 wheel would be the best bet for a DD that has a stock head.


Yep, do it like this-

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/Intercooler%20install%20pics/Canoncamerapics043.jpg

[JuXsA]

ok... so using a rubber elbow it should clear the head without having to do any of the shaving material off the head like whats shown the donovans site?

[Chris W]

its looking like I am going to go with a TO4E compressor housing with a 50trim wheel. Just need to find out if the warrenty is voided if an elbow is welded on to the compressor:D Still not sure what turbine I'm gonna use.... I think a .63 with a stage 1 wheel would be the best bet for a DD that has a stock head.

The Stage 1 turbine wheel is not a good match for the 50 trim compressor wheel. I strongly suggest moving to a Stage 2 turbine wheel for a DD. Stage 3 would work better with a 16-valve or automatic transmission. Welding elbows on the compressor housing will not void Turbonetic's or TU's warranty. Be sure to order our oil suply line with your turbo to validate our 2 year warranty.

Chris-TU

[turbovanman²]

Honestly, I would not go with a Stage III wheel for a DD on an 8 valve car. Mine engine is heavilly modified and still has alot of lag.

Anyhow, Juxsa, I just used a 90 deg elbow of a 2nd Gen RX7. As you can see, clears with no mods. I can sell you one if you want.

[GLHSKEN]

I know of an 8v car that saw no difference spool wise between a stage III and Stage II wheel. Stock head... 2.5's can support it no problem.

[turbovanman²]

I know of an 8v car that saw no difference spool wise between a stage III and Stage II wheel. Stock head... 2.5's can support it no problem.

Don't want to start a heated debate, I have it, don't like it, too laggy-nuff said, :p

[JuXsA]

All I know is my friend has donovan made TO4E 50 trim with a stage3 wheel and holycrap is it laggy. His name is lancershelby and I think he posted some dyno graphs here.
Any way his engine pretty modded, hence him making almost 400lbs/ft 308hp. He just got a TU cal and he says that its making a good bit more power. He figures he is over 400lbs/ft and 325hp now.
But holy crap is there some turbo lag. Sure, when it hits boosts it just kicks the crap out of you all the way to redline but still, for a DD I need to be making power a little lower.
Has any one here ever tried using a stage 2 and a stage 3 wheel in a .63 housing? If I wasn't already over budget I would consider getting my head ported by Todd Nelson or mpgmike or the pope or something but can't afford to drop an extra $1k with all the money I have dumped and getting ready to dump on this thing.

I would deffinatly buy the rx7 elbow thingy PM me with a price and shipping, I live in knoxville, TN 37917 USA

I just wanted to tell everyone who has responded in this thread that I am really glad your helping out here.

And chris be expecting a call from me next week:D

[turbovanman²]

I am running the stage 3 wheel in a .63 housing, :nod:

No problem on the elbow. I will go get one and PM you with how much.

[JuXsA]

Awesome..... Is there anyone with a stage 2 wheel? I just need to go back and look at my posts to see if any one has talked about using a stage2 wheel

[GLHS592]

I'm running a stage II. It spools slightly slower than the stock turbo. Of course, I'm running a ported intake and head.

[8valves]

I had a super 50 TO4E w/ a .62 Stg II exhaust side. I was running a nicely ported head (197in/153ex) w/ a ported two piece, and a TU header. But- I wouldn't get boost until 3900/4000 rpms. However I was using a either e taft S2 or S3 cam, so that will change spool characterisitics hugely.

This is on a 2.2 though as well. So- on a 2.5 w/ a stock cam i would think that you would have a very potent street machine.

For comparison, a menegon headed 2.5 STOCK CAM spools my GT30R to over 28 psi by 3200 rpms. My nearly same flow bench numbers head on a 2.2 with a BIG cam doesn't get it till 3900-4100, I can't honestly remember right now. That's a huge difference.

Aaron Miller

[JuXsA]

yeah, I would like to be building boost by 2000-2500 rpms... doesnt have to be full boost but I would like to have around 8 psi by 3k rpms

[GLHSKEN]

You don't want it too low, you will hammer the rod bearings to death...

[JuXsA]

Never thought about that... This weekend I am going to take a look at my exhaust manifold and see about porting it with my dremal. Is there any place on there that you recomend to gut out? Or should I just hog the thing out?

[turbovanman²]

Never thought about that... This weekend I am going to take a look at my exhaust manifold and see about porting it with my dremal. Is there any place on there that you recomend to gut out? Or should I just hog the thing out?


Port match to the head, or make the exhaust manifold ports slightly bigger, no reversion. Port match to turbine housing and bascially widen, and smooth. The metal is pretty thick so you can grind alot.

[JuXsA]

has any one used a super 46 trim? I was playing with franks turbo calc and even though I still have not much of a clue, it looks like the super 46 trim is a damn good wheel... any comments?

[contraption22]

I have had both stage II and stage III wheels on an otherwise unchaged turbo, on the same exact engine. Spoolup was dramatically better with the Stage II wheel. Not good, just better than Stage III. The main problem with my spoolup was that I was using a "Half-Assed Hybrid" (T04E wheel in a stock TII compressor housing)

[turbovanman²]

^^^Awesome info Mike, thanks. :nod:

Was there any power difference?

[cordes]

I have had both stage II and stage III wheels on an otherwise unchaged turbo, on the same exact engine. Spoolup was dramatically better with the Stage II wheel. Not good, just better than Stage III. The main with my spoolup was that I was using a "Half-Assed Hybrid" (T04E wheel in a stock TII compressor housing)


I experienced pretty much the same thing with my omni. The T04E housing turbo which I have on there now spools up much better than the old FM turbo with the T4 wheel stuffed in the T3 housing.

[Chris W]

Here's a post about a customer of ours who recorded an 85 degree difference in compressor outlet temperatures when going to a larger matched housing from the smaller T3 cover.

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/showpost.php?p=457601&postcount=58

Big wheel and small housing just makes the intercooler work harder.

Chris-TU

[contraption22]

^^^Awesome info Mike, thanks. :nod:

Was there any power difference?

It's tough to say. ET's were dramatically different because I was unable to leave the line with boost with the S3 wheel. With the S2 wheel i could get some boost if i worked at it.

I've heard that there will not be a dramatic difference in flow between an S2 and S3 wheels, but there would be a dramatic difference in spool up.

[JuXsA]

when would you start building boost with the stg2 and with the stg3 wheels? also what is your setup like?