Lots of valve train noise after tons of work!

[navyboy65]

Ok after a long time in the making I got the car back togeather today after having this work done to the head:
New Seals
New head plugs
Oil plug welded
Cometic Head Gasket
Head Studs
Head ported, valve job, cleaned, resurfaced and checked.
Performance regrind cams(from Delta Cams).
+ A few years back in 05 I installed the new lifters.


Here's what happened when I got running. Pretty much fired right up! BUt I noticed lots of noise comming from the valve train.Last Time I had it running before all this work was about 3 months ago and I don't remember it making that much noise. If anything I think the injectors back them made more noise!!!! Anyways I stopped it and took off the in take valve cover. Every thing looked ok(I did properly torque doen the rocker shaft bolts), I wiggled the rockers and most seemed loose. I could get them to move about a 1/4" or so off the tip of the valve. This would seem to me what would be making the noise, but how??? Is it the cams I'm using??? Any thoughts??? Help??? Advice????? Fixes??????


Car is a 92 Spirit R/T with 86K miles or so(don't exactly remember off the top of my head)

I have this same post on turbododge.com too!

[2.216VTurbo]

Did you see my thread about when I had my oil plug welded?:confused2: Pull the exhast valve cover and MAKE SURE you have oil flowing to the exhaust cam!

[black86glhs]

Did you see my thread about when I had my oil plug welded?:confused2: Pull the exhast valve cover and MAKE SURE you have oil flowing to the exhaust cam!
What Alan, no link? :D
You know you love to go through and reread all your posts! J/k:eyebrows:

[iTurbo]

Also check and make sure the rocker shafts were not installed upside down. It's possible to put them together upside down, but the oiling holes will not line up resulting in no oil to the rocker/lifter assemblies. Is there any oil coming out of the small holes on the top of the rockers?

[turbovanman²]

The shafts are different front to rear. The flats face up and to the cam gear side.

If you can move the rocker arm up and down after running it, then you have an oil pressure issue to the rocker arms or the lifters went bad.

[Turbo3Iroc]

If you have a gap between the lifter and the valve you need to make sure the discs are installed in the rockers. If you have stage 2 or 3 cams you need to install some lash adjusters.

[navyboy65]

If you have a gap between the lifter and the valve you need to make sure the discs are installed in the rockers. If you have stage 2 or 3 cams you need to install some lash adjusters.

I think its just stage one cams but the intake cam had rust and a bad lobe and I think Delt took a little extra off so I think I need lash adjusters just on the intake as all te exhaust are nice and tight. What kind of lash adjusters do I need and where can I get them? Also I measured the gap and they range from .085-.100", what do I need to add in adjusters to that???
I checked the oiling and all are flowing oil out of the top of the rockers, I also checked to make sure the arms and shafts were installed correctly and thay are. Also all the disc's are in there I have not removed the lifters since 2005 whin I put new ones in and all the dics's were there then.

[iTurbo]

Wallace has told me that 7mm lash caps for a 4.6L DOHC Ford motor will work. I run LWP stage I regrinds with a reduced base circle on one of my R/Ts and it is quiet without any lash caps.

[Turbo3Iroc]

Those gaps are pretty big. I'd be more concerned with getting a bad cam. Do you have a micrometer you can measure the lobes with?

[navyboy65]

Those gaps are pretty big. I'd be more concerned with getting a bad cam. Do you have a micrometer you can measure the lobes with?

I do have a micrometer somewhere and I have a digital caliper, but I don't think I can measure the cam while its in the head? Or can I?

[navyboy65]

Wallace has told me that 7mm lash caps for a 4.6L DOHC Ford motor will work. I run LWP stage I regrinds with a reduced base circle on one of my R/Ts and it is quiet without any lash caps.
Ahh, I did a little searching and measuring and 7mm lash caps was what I was looking for. But 4.6 DOHC Ford will help too! Thats if I can fix the problem with lash caps or if I do need to get another cam????

[Turbo3Iroc]

The caliper type should get on them easily after the rocker shafts are removed. I would try to measure the width of the base and height of the lobe and check vs the other cam.

[Turbo3Iroc]

On second thought I guess it won't work. My caliper is too thick to get between the lobe and the spring.

[TurboII]

How do you know if you have a bad rocker or lifter noises. im having the same problem but i have stock components. 8v. sorry to thread jump

[navyboy65]

Ok update! I just talked to John @ Delta Camhafts and he said that even with the gap I am getting I could pull the lifters and put some stainless steel washer(s)(#10 size) in and should be good to go. He admits he doesn't really know these engines, but that's what the do with great sucess on other models(mazda/fords). What do you guys think about that????

Also I still plan to go ahead and pull the rockers and shafts just to make sure I have it togeather right!
Seth

[turbovanman²]

Ok update! I just talked to John @ Delta Camhafts and he said that even with the gap I am getting I could pull the lifters and put some stainless steel washer(s)(#10 size) in and should be good to go. He admits he doesn't really know these engines, but that's what the do with great sucess on other models(mazda/fords). What do you guys think about that????

Also I still plan to go ahead and pull the rockers and shafts just to make sure I have it togeather right!
Seth

That might work but be careful of blocking the oil hole at the top of the lifter bore.

Look how much lifter is sticking out compared to the exhaust side, that will tell you if the cam is alot smaller. Do all the intake lifters have that much gap?

[navyboy65]

Ok Update I just did some more looing and I did put the rocker arms and shafts on correctly! Someone Etched "TOP" on the shaft too, so you put it in right. I also pulled the intake shaft & rockers and all the little discs are there and the lifter seem fine. I also did my best to measure(where the caml obe is the widest) the intake cam while the cam is in the head and this is what I got:
Cylinder 1 lobes:
1.195" 1.172"IN
30.37 29.78MM

Cylinder 2:
1.179" 1.174"IN
30.02 29.86MM

Cylinder 3:
1.179" 1.184"IN
29.95 30.08MM

Cylinder 4:
1.185" 1.179"IN
30.11 29.96MM

I also measured my old used stock(as far as I know) cam which isn't in a head and this is what I got:

Cylinder 1:
1.3305" 1.3325"IN
33.80 33.85MM

Cylinder 2:
1.333" 1.330"IN
33.85 33.78MM

Cylinder 3:
1.330" 1.333"IN
33.79 33.87MM

Cylinder 4:
1.330" 1.3305"IN
33.79 33.79MM

So I did an average of the delta cam and came up with 30.013mm and an average of the Used Stock one and got 33.815mm. Which comes to an average difference of 3.802mm(.1497"), so alsmost 4mm difference. I would say that is a lot!!!!! ALso when I look and compare the cams there isn't as much of a lobe on the delta intake cam. I mean the lobe looks almost to meet the shaft!
So what advice and insite do you guy have to say with the latest info????

[turbovanman²]

Don't use Delta Cams again, lol!

I guess lash caps are needed or try the washer trick.

[navyboy65]

Don't use Delta Cams again, lol!

I guess lash caps are needed or try the washer trick.

It's weird because Delta did the exhaust cam I beleive? I bought it online from someone, but that cam seems fine????
I like that the washer trick is cheap but the lash caps seem to be a better bet to me so I think I'm going that route????

[2.216VTurbo]

Remember that whatever is removed from the base circle of the cam, is 'added' to the lobe. So even though the overall lobe profile is lower, you may not have less lift/duration (performance). You really can't measure lift/duration with just the caliper method. I would shim the lifters so they are back in contact with the base circles of the cam. Prolly be just golden after that...

[navyboy65]

Remember that whatever is removed from the base circle of the cam, is 'added' to the lobe. So even though the overall lobe profile is lower, you may not have less lift/duration (performance). You really can't measure lift/duration with just the caliper method. I would shim the lifters so they are back in contact with the base circles of the cam. Prolly be just golden after that...

Thanks for the tip! I have only run the car not driven it since the work but even with the intake cam noise it still seems to run stong. I have e-mailed delta with the measurments to see what they say but I would like to try lash caps. So any one know where I can get some 7mm lash caps that are .1" or 2.55-2.6mm thick???? Oh at a good price would be nice!!!!

[navyboy65]

Latest. I just got off the phone with Delta. I told them the gap/material missing and they said wow! You can't or really shouldn't shim that much! So their solution is to weld all the lobes and then re-grind. The only thing is that he want's me to pay around $100 to do so. That is half price but??? So what do you guys think???
I looked into lash caps and I would have to get custom ones @ around $9each($72 for a set of 8 + shipping).

Does anyone know the brand new stock cam measurments, so if I do go with a new re-grind I can have them make the cam as close to original before the performance profile.

Still sucks no matter which way I go I still have to take the cam out!!!!

[turbovanman²]

Well first off, if they reground the cam, why are they charging you? They f*cked up, its there dime. You need to stand your ground on that one.

It was obviously a bad one and they chose not to weld it back up but just grind it down. I can measure a stocker in a bit.

[Turbo3Iroc]

Yea it sounds like they are admitting guilt but want you to cover the cost of their mistake.

I don't think I have any cams that are not installed in cyl heads for comparison measurments.

[iTurbo]

I have a digital caliper and a few stock cams lying around. Is that all I need to measure base circle?

[turbovanman²]

Journal 1.884"
Lobe base circle 1.327"

[navyboy65]

Journal 1.884"
Lobe base circle 1.327"

Thanks for the help! I just pulled the delta cam and measured it out side the head and was getting Journals of 1.886-1.885" on the Dleta cam. I checked my old stock cam and was getting 1.887-1.886, looked it up in the book to and STD for the TIII is 1.886/1.887!
As for the base circle I did 2 measurments one where it was the fatest and tallest on the delta I was getting
W: 1.154-1.161" range
T: 1.397-1.404"range
While my stock cam got;
W: 1.329-1.337" range
T: 1-518-1.520" range


Lastly I think the book was saying wear limit on the lobes for the TIII is .5mm or .020", but book didn't state STD of lobes.

So I am going to press the delta cam guys to fix their mistake, no charge to me as after checking the journals that cam couldn't have been that bad!!!! ANd if it was they shoulds have told me before I wasted my $100 to have it regound when it needed other work!!! Now I just have to find my receipt, so I can send them a copy back! Too bad they don't do a heres what the cam was like before we got it(measurements) and heres what we did to it and what it is now????

Thanks again guys for all the help and support. I'll be firm with them and let them know the TD TIII world is wathching!!!:thumb:

[turbovanman²]

Based on your specs, it looks like they took of .200" which is alot, :wow1:

[navyboy65]

Based on your specs, it looks like they took of .200" which is alot, :wow1:

Wow, now that you had me look @ the #'s again it is a lot. About 5mm!! which is more than I first thought 3.8-4mm:confused:

[navyboy65]

Just to keep you guy upto date to with the TD site:
Here are some pics I too before sending the cam back to Delta.
Delta cam on top and my used/stock cam on the bottom:
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/100_3007.jpg
The next pic is a close up of the cylinder 1 lobes, again the delta is on top, I think you can see how much the delta one is missing.
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/100_3009.jpg
Now for the good news: I just talked to them and they told me they got the cam, checked it out and it is way undersized. He mentions base circle is 1.33 and mine was 1.16, I think I got the #'s right the . might be in the wrong spot as it was over the phone. They don't know how it happened? So they are rushing it today. They had already welded it and were just regrinding it as I talked to them! Their goal was to get it shipped out today and all at no cost to me. They were very nice and appologized. It would be cool if they over nighted it so I could check it out this weekend and install it? We'll see. I'll let you guys know when I get it back!
Seth!

[Turbo3Iroc]

It's great that they are rushing it back to you and not charging for anyting.

[turbovanman²]

Wow, thats alot of metal. I hope they weld it up properly otherwise it will wear very fast and take out your expensive rocker arms.

[navyboy65]

Ok update. I just got a chance to look over them cam and install it. It looks pretty good! But the best is that It has all the meat back. Now the rocker arms fit nicely!!!! No more slop! And when I got it all back to geather is sounded like it did and should before this big mess started! So Delta came through for me!!!:amen: Here ar some pics, from my camera phone!
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/dsc08750.jpg
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/dsc08752.jpg
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/dsc08754.jpg
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/dsc08753.jpg


**** Ok now for the not so good news. Car runs great, fires right up but boost where is it??? Ok I totaly admit in my re-doing of the vac harness and all the work I did I may have hooks some things up wrong. Here's what the car does. Boost on the gauge doesn't really show un till 2250 and then its only 1-3 psi. I have to womp on it 3-4K RPMs to really see any psi and then it doesn't pass 9-10 psi that I remember. + Drivability has changed. I used to never have to down shift to go up a hill just give it a little more gas and the boots and power pop right in. now I have to drop a gear or to and get the RPM's up there??? So I hope this is enough info for you guys to pop out suggestions!!!??? (turbo is stock/original, using stock injectors and stock computer.)

[turbovanman²]

Whats your idle vacuum? Did you degree the cams or are you using stock cam gears? Did you hook the wastegate to manifold vacuum and if you did, what boost do you get? Don't type in red please, ;)

[GLHNSLHT2]

The pics of the Delta cam and your stock cam are SCARY! Even on my crappy monitor it is blatently obvious. Glad they cam through for you.

[navyboy65]

Whats your idle vacuum? Did you degree the cams or are you using stock cam gears? Did you hook the wastegate to manifold vacuum and if you did, what boost do you get? Don't type in red please, ;)

I beleive just sitting @ idle I'm getting around 10-12(inches murc). Which is not as much as I remember from before all the work, I think I got more like 20.
Nope didn't degree, just using stock setting/gears.
I tried to fallow the vac harness diagram as best I could so I beleive the wastegate is hooked up to the manifold. For boost, again at 3K+ RPM's, I think the highest I saw on the gauge was 8-10 PSI.
Thanks, Seth

[iTurbo]

Any surging or bucking? Codes? It almost sounds like what happened to my Spirit R/T when I put a stage I grind from LWP in. Intake vacuum dropped from 18 in/hg to 10 in/hg, awful throttle response and NO power below ~2800 RPM. Hauls the mail pretty well 3000+ RPM though.

[turbovanman²]

I beleive just sitting @ idle I'm getting around 10-12(inches murc). Which is not as much as I remember from before all the work, I think I got more like 20.
Nope didn't degree, just using stock setting/gears.
I tried to fallow the vac harness diagram as best I could so I beleive the wastegate is hooked up to the manifold. For boost, again at 3K+ RPM's, I think the highest I saw on the gauge was 8-10 PSI.
Thanks, Seth

Well thats your issue, you should have 20 inches or 18-20. I would guess you need to at least check your cams so see how far out they are, you will need a degree wheel and a dial indicator, its really easy to do. Barring that, you've either got it timed wrong-easy to do or they ground the wrong profile on the cam.

[navyboy65]

Any surging or bucking? Codes? It almost sounds like what happened to my Spirit R/T when I put a stage I grind from LWP in. Intake vacuum dropped from 18 in/hg to 10 in/hg, awful throttle response and NO power below ~2800 RPM. Hauls the mail pretty well 3000+ RPM though.

No no surging or bucking. I didn't have time to check for codes but will here in the next 2-3 days. Yeah. I would have to say that's what your stage 1 did seems like what mine is doing.

[navyboy65]

Well thats your issue, you should have 20 inches or 18-20. I would guess you need to at least check your cams so see how far out they are, you will need a degree wheel and a dial indicator, its really easy to do. Barring that, you've either got it timed wrong-easy to do or they ground the wrong profile on the cam.


I know I have seen a wirte up on degreeing the TIII, I'll have to look into that, or if you have a link handy thT would be a big help. I would really really hate for it to be something wrong with the cam!!! I really don't want to have to pull it again!!!! But I am getting good at it!:thumb:

[iTurbo]

Just out of curiousity, how are you removing/installing the cams? Looks tough with the head in the car..

[RoadWarrior222]

IDK how he's doing it, but you can probably win some clearance by jacking it high off the mount on the passenger side.

[Turbo3Iroc]

The centerlines on the S1 cams are a lot different than the stock centerline. I redid mine after I had it all set because I was nearly at the end of the range on the intake so I adjusted it one tooth off and now it is only a couple clicks off center. The exhaust is close to center as well but it is on the correct tooth. Just an FYI.

[navyboy65]

Just out of curiousity, how are you removing/installing the cams? Looks tough with the head in the car..

Well atleast on the intake cam your can take it out the trans side just by removing the plug! It doesn't look like you could do this trick with the ex cam(strut tower in the way)! Or atleast I haven't had to or even tried!
Just off the top of my head you have to take the battery out, unbolt/unscrew the ECU and move it forward slightly. Un do the front upper inter cooler hose. Un hook the upper rad hose and t-stat outlet. Un bolt the ground @ head connection. Unbolt the solid vac line for the brake booster and pry out of the way. THen just undo the timing belt stuff, unbolt the cam gear (remove and install when taking the cam out the trans side), unbolt rocker arms and remove & the thrust kepper thingy! That's the quick and dirty but if you do it, it'll work out and is a lot easier than having to remove the head or do some crazy positioning of the engine. Because that dang motor mount gets in the way of the cam & cam gear and you would have to remove all kinds of stuff to get it out of the way!

[navyboy65]

The centerlines on the S1 cams are a lot different than the stock centerline. I redid mine after I had it all set because I was nearly at the end of the range on the intake so I adjusted it one tooth off and now it is only a couple clicks off center. The exhaust is close to center as well but it is on the correct tooth. Just an FYI.

WHich way to did you adjust 1 tooth off. Clock wise or counter clock wise???

[Turbo3Iroc]

I'd have to go look. But just because that's what it came out on my car does not mean it will be on other cars. I just posted that to show the variance.

[turbovanman²]

Are yours stock or S1 cams? I thought I read stock regrinds.

Heres the link to my post on how to set them, piece of cake-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21994&highlight=easy

[WOP'R]

hmmm i wonder if my delta cams are ok?!?!?!

[turbovanman²]

hmmm i wonder if my delta cams are ok?!?!?!

I personally don't think so, :(

[navyboy65]

Well I am back and gear up to finish the work needed. I have been in contact with Cindy @ FWDP for the adj. Cam Gears and I should hear something back in about a week. As for centerlining I did go over Turbomanvans' thread http://http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21994&highlight=easyI'm still not exactly sure what to do but I wanted to make sure I have the right tools to do the job. I have a dial indicator & stand/mount. I have a Mopar Performance Degree wheel, and I think I found the required 2.2 adapter(I have included pics but if someone has a pic of the adapter I would love to see it! I also have a mopar performance TDC tool if I can find it??? So I guess I need to know if I what I have in this pic is the adapter or something else
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/dsc08779.jpg
and if this degree wheel will work for me to do it right:
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/dsc08778.jpg
Thanks, Seth

[turbovanman²]

I just used large washers to mount it.

You find TDC using a TDC stop, then set the point you mount to TDC on the degree wheel, roll the engine to the intake setting, then loosen the cam gear adjustment and set the cam for the middle of the highest lift point. On TIII's, your setting the cams to the middle of the lift, others you set when the valve starts to open. Hard to type and explain, lol.

[iTurbo]

I made a plate that mounts in the valley area using the valve cover bolt holes. It allows the dial indicator and magnetic base to be mounted so that that TDC can be checked through the spark plug hole if you don't have a piston stop.

http://www.turbosedan.com/spirit/DSC02969.JPG

[navyboy65]

I just used large washers to mount it.

You find TDC using a TDC stop, then set the point you mount to TDC on the degree wheel, roll the engine to the intake setting, then loosen the cam gear adjustment and set the cam for the middle of the highest lift point. On TIII's, your setting the cams to the middle of the lift, others you set when the valve starts to open. Hard to type and explain, lol.

I just got my adjustable cam gears in today :amen:! I only have a short window(time and weather) tomorrow so I want to use your fast was of setting the timing but I am somewhat confused as to what exactly to do. I'm going to start from factory timing(TDC), I put on the degree wheel, set up a reference to 0. Then do I rotate the crank till it shows 121????(if this is correct do I move the cams in sync with the crankshaft to 121?)
Then as to the cams, I just pick a lobe/rocker arm and rotate till I find 0 (or when that valve is fulley closed?) and the I rotate it 2 degrees(or is that 2 ? on the dial gauge) and the forward 2 degrees, then set to the center of that(which most likely would be 1). While working on the cams I move Do I move them independent of the crank?
I know I make it sound confusing, but then again I am confused!




I made a plate that mounts in the valley area using the valve cover bolt holes. It allows the dial indicator and magnetic base to be mounted so that that TDC can be checked through the spark plug hole if you don't have a piston stop. Thanks alot for the help, I really appreciate it!

http://www.turbosedan.com/spirit/DSC02969.JPG
Hey thanks for the Idea, I kinda copied you. But mine doesn't have the hole of the #1(at least not yet) Mines mainly for a mount for working on the cams. And mine has notches on the sides for 6 bolts from the valve covers. I'll have to post a pic soon. Thanks again

[turbovanman²]

I just got my adjustable cam gears in today :amen:! I only have a short window(time and weather) tomorrow so I want to use your fast was of setting the timing but I am somewhat confused as to what exactly to do. I'm going to start from factory timing(TDC), I put on the degree wheel, set up a reference to 0. Then do I rotate the crank till it shows 121????(if this is correct do I move the cams in sync with the crankshaft to 121?)
Then as to the cams, I just pick a lobe/rocker arm and rotate till I find 0 (or when that valve is fulley closed?) and the I rotate it 2 degrees(or is that 2 ? on the dial gauge) and the forward 2 degrees, then set to the center of that(which most likely would be 1). While working on the cams I move Do I move them independent of the crank?
I know I make it sound confusing, but then again I am confused!


In an nutshell, install timing belt and time pulley's correctly.

Mount the wheel and find TDC, Set the pointer at this, now rotate engine to the intake spec, 121 we will use, now place the dial indicator on the rocker arm or valve, loosen cam sprocket bolts, find the point of highest lift, tighten bolts, repeat for the exhaust cam, done.

[RoadWarrior222]

non-TM guide... http://escortfocus.com/html/how_to_degree_a_camshaft.html

[2.216VTurbo]

Seth, if you only have a short window of time/weather to time your cams, don't bother. It took me 4+ hours to do it and it was nothing like Simon describes:confused2: He makes it sound way easier than it was for me:o... Read Neil Emiro's 'center lining for power' article, it's pretty spot on IMO.

You could just set them in the middle of the slide adjustment and run the car around like that but thats how I did mine and I was 11 degrees off on the exhaust and 10 degrees off on the intake that way.

[navyboy65]

In an nutshell, install timing belt and time pulley's correctly.

Mount the wheel and find TDC, Set the pointer at this, now rotate engine to the intake spec, 121 we will use, now place the dial indicator on the rocker arm or valve, loosen cam sprocket bolts, find the point of highest lift, tighten bolts, repeat for the exhaust cam, done.

Thanks, That makes it sound so much easier! Just to make sure I have it all right! This is all dealing with #1 I&E.

When rotating the crank/timing belt it's clockwise.

(not to be a big pain) But the 121, I rotate clock wise till 121(after top dead center) providing I'm on an intake stroke/cycle. Then do as you said and adjust the cam gear to max lift/max valve open. Because @ 121 ATDC thats when you want the max from intake.

When doing exhaust, is the only change is that it needs to be on the exhaust stroke/cycle but still use 121 ATDC?

Sorry about all the questions,as I am sure you can tell I am quite a novice at this "timing" stuff!

[turbovanman²]

Thanks, That makes it sound so much easier! Just to make sure I have it all right! This is all dealing with #1 I&E.

When rotating the crank/timing belt it's clockwise.

(not to be a big pain) But the 121, I rotate clock wise till 121(after top dead center) providing I'm on an intake stroke/cycle. Then do as you said and adjust the cam gear to max lift/max valve open. Because @ 121 ATDC thats when you want the max from intake.

When doing exhaust, is the only change is that it needs to be on the exhaust stroke/cycle but still use 121 ATDC?

Sorry about all the questions,as I am sure you can tell I am quite a novice at this "timing" stuff!

Correct, except use the exhaust spec.

We are lucky as our specs are with the valve at full lift, otherwise you can't set the cams like I figured out.

The specs are, 121 atdc intake, 104 btdc exhaust.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17269&highlight=cam+specs

[navyboy65]

Correct, except use the exhaust spec.

We are lucky as our specs are with the valve at full lift, otherwise you can't set the cams like I figured out.

The specs are, 121 atdc intake, 104 btdc exhaust.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17269&highlight=cam+specs

Awesome I think I've got it now! I think you mentioned it earlier in this or another thread but 121 ATDC & 104 BTDC is this what delta(thats what I have) recommends for thier performance profile??? I saw somewhere that LWP reccommends for their stage 1's (108'/118') which I think means 108 BTDC ex. & 118 ATDC in.?

[navyboy65]

Seth, if you only have a short window of time/weather to time your cams, don't bother. It took me 4+ hours to do it and it was nothing like Simon describes:confused2: He makes it sound way easier than it was for me:o... Read Neil Emiro's 'center lining for power' article, it's pretty spot on IMO.

You could just set them in the middle of the slide adjustment and run the car around like that but thats how I did mine and I was 11 degrees off on the exhaust and 10 degrees off on the intake that way.

Well, about 4 hours is my window. If I can at least get some work done on it I'll be happy.
I found Neil Emiro's 'center lining for power', here http://users.ticnet.com/~superdave/Emiro.html
Which seems like a lot of work and confusing to me. I think I've got down what Simon is saying and will try it tomorrow!

[turbovanman²]

Awesome I think I've got it now! I think you mentioned it earlier in this or another thread but 121 ATDC & 104 BTDC is this what delta(thats what I have) recommends for thier performance profile??? I saw somewhere that LWP reccommends for their stage 1's (108'/118') which I think means 108 BTDC ex. & 118 ATDC in.?

Yes, Wallace has different centerlines. When I phoned Delta for Rob's cams, which btw are junk, the engine ran like crap, low vacuum so putting stockers back in, they told me to run stock centerlines.

After you get it running, you can always advance/retard the cams for fun. I advanced my stockers 4 deg with the old head and picked up alot of bottom end and midrange.

[navyboy65]

When I phoned Delta for Rob's cams, which btw are junk, the engine ran like crap, low vacuum so putting stockers back in, they told me to run stock centerlines.

Ahh great! Nothings been right since I started messing with these delta cams! I have my doubts that center lining is going to help. My current problem sound like iTurbo's, but he has LWP stage 1 cams


I haven't been able to get more than ~12 in/hg vacuum at idle, and the power band doesn't start until about 3000 RPM. From 3k RPM to redline the car hauls! Below 3k RPM the car is very sluggish and throttle response is a little wierd.

[navyboy65]

Just got this e-mail from delta about center lining their cams:
"Set the cam up in factory location, then monkey tune them from there, usually the int 2' advanced and exh 2' retarded"!

[turbovanman²]

Ahh great! Nothings been right since I started messing with these delta cams! I have my doubts that center lining is going to help.

Rob's were his cams, when we get him engine back together, I found some stockers to put back in.

I am working on a set of cams for these engines that will rock, :rockon::partywoot::partywoot:

[bansheenut420]

Rob's were his cams, when we get him engine back together, I found some stockers to put back in.

I am working on a set of cams for these engines that will rock, :rockon::partywoot::partywoot:

My cams work AWESOME! Lonewolf cams FTW! Cams that were tested on and powered the worlds fastest TIII motor you cant go wrong with. :nod: Sounds like Delta SUCKS! lmfao I have 17" of vac, plenty of mid range and will make power past 9k. :thumb:

[iTurbo]

haha my experience with the LWP stage I cams could not be any different. I would gladly trade them for some nice stock cams. Unfortunately I'm too busy to tear into that car any time soon.

[bansheenut420]

haha my experience with the LWP stage I cams could not be any different. I would gladly trade them for some nice stock cams. Unfortunately I'm too busy to tear into that car any time soon.

Let me know when your ready to trade. I have a stock set with some minor lobe damage I would be interested in trading + some cash if your interested. They have to almost be stage 2's for as bad as a response as you say they are, so they will go perfect in the my "spare" head/shortblock.

[iTurbo]

They could be stage II, not sure. That would make more sense to me if that is what they are. The car (my red Spirit R/T) is just a dog until 3000 RPM and then zooom! It's just frustrating more often than not for my driving style. Like I said though, my plate is just way too full to even think about tearing that car apart any time soon. I will say that It's been my most reliable turbo mopar ever!

[moparfwdsleeper]

:pi'd swap ya cams lol.

S1 cams are on my list of things to purchase in the future. Delta so far is a no go in my book. I can't believe they didn't catch that before they shipped them. WOW!

[turbovanman²]

I'll post up how Rob's new engine runs with stock cams, I am guaranteeing much better, ;)

[navyboy65]

Wasn't able to get much done the other day! Got the old cam gears off and the new adjustable ones on, also got out the dial and found exact TDC! Just waiting for a day when I have the time and weather to cooperate to do some more! I'm crossing my fingers that these Delta cams work out as I am not looking forward to having to swap the stock ones back in! Sounds like Delta does a stage 2 regrind, as how they run in my car sounds like what LWP stage 2 cams do?
Thanks for all the help, advice, and experiences! It’s been a huge help!
Seth

[navyboy65]

OK, today I had time and the weather was great for working on the R/T, so thats what I did. The bad news is I tried the "quick" method for degreeing the cams and ended up with a no start! I went to 104 btdc and set # 1 ex. to max lift/ open and intake @ 121 atdc and set to max lift and car wouldn't start! I made sure when I started I had found TBD with the dial gauge and my pointer never moved while degreeing? Any Ideas? Looks like I'll have time and good weather to do some more work on the car tomorrow!! I'd like to get it done!

Also on these FWD adj cam gears, min have a smal gauge area but I don't see anything that the white gauge lines match up to???? Anyone have a close up of their cam gears I could look at???

[turbovanman²]

OK, today I had time and the weather was great for working on the R/T, so thats what I did. The bad news is I tried the "quick" method for degreeing the cams and ended up with a no start! I went to 104 btdc and set # 1 ex. to max lift/ open and intake @ 121 atdc and set to max lift and car wouldn't start! I made sure when I started I had found TBD with the dial gauge and my pointer never moved while degreeing? Any Ideas? Looks like I'll have time and good weather to do some more work on the car tomorrow!! I'd like to get it done!

Also on these FWD adj cam gears, min have a smal gauge area but I don't see anything that the white gauge lines match up to???? Anyone have a close up of their cam gears I could look at???

The cams being dialed in isn't the reason for the no start.


The white lines won't match up, thats the whole point of degreeing them. The intake cam I believe is a tooth out. You should be able to almost use the factory drill bit holes to line up the sprockets, I found mine actually worked after they were degreed.

[dds78910]

Did it flash any codes or did the check engine light come on. I had some issues with my vac lines when I redid them. Or was the problem only with the cams? I dont know if you have the factory service manual, but I have the timing belt procedure on PDF if you need it. My dad e-mailed it to me when I was doing my R/T a couple weeks ago.

[navyboy65]

Did it flash any codes or did the check engine light come on. I had some issues with my vac lines when I redid them. Or was the problem only with the cams? I dont know if you have the factory service manual, but I have the timing belt procedure on PDF if you need it. My dad e-mailed it to me when I was doing my R/T a couple weeks ago.

No codes or lights, I checked that. I also look at elec connections and everything is connected. I do have a FSM, and I am 99% sure I put the belt on right! I think I'll rest the timming to stock(cam gears back to 0) and see if it starts?

[navyboy65]

The cams being dialed in isn't the reason for the no start.


The white lines won't match up, thats the whole point of degreeing them. The intake cam I believe is a tooth out. You should be able to almost use the factory drill bit holes to line up the sprockets, I found mine actually worked after they were degreed.

The white lines I am talking about are the hash marks on the adj cam gear faces. one long in the middle and a bunch of smaller ones to each side. They look like thet are to help you in adjusting but I don't see what points at the mark you are on???

[turbovanman²]

The white lines I am talking about are the hash marks on the adj cam gear faces. on long in the middle and a bunch of smaller ones to each side. They look like thet are to help you in adjusting but I don't see what points at the mark you are on???

To time it the normal way, there are a small hole in each gear and matching hole in the head, aprox 3/16 drill bit fits thru. The intake hole is at 9 oclock, ex cam is 3 oclock. With my cams degreed, I could use the stock holes to set the timing belt.

[2.216VTurbo]

There should be a corresponding hash mark on the outside of the gear, looks for it carefully *anywhere* on the gear. I'm wondering if they were put together indexed incorrectly and each cam is 90 or 180 or 270 out:confused: That would cause a no start. The marks gotta be there...

[navyboy65]

There should be a corresponding hash mark on the outside of the gear, looks for it carefully *anywhere* on the gear. I'm wondering if they were put together indexed incorrectly and each cam is 90 or 180 or 270 out:confused: That would cause a no start. The marks gotta be there...

Man, I just looked all over them the best I could and I didn't see any match marks??? You don't happent to have a picture of it do you???? seth@gfire.us

[glhs727]

Seth,
You don't have to worry about whether the sprockets are indexed correctly, as that is a function of the cam key vs the pinning hole. And if you pinned the cams, you should be OK. As far as the outer hash mark. There should be one. But I did not check yours when they came back from anodizing. Not a big deal. Just put the gear so each bolt is in the center of their slots. Then take some a scribe and scribe a line that corresponds to the zero hash mark on the inner piece. I like to use some white nail polish in the scribed line to make it stand out so it is easier to see. Your cams would have to be way out to have a no start, as even from the factory some were 8-13 degrees off and as we all know they still ran OK. Did you check to make sure your cam sensor and crank sensor voltage was right?
Also are you using stock cams or aftermarket? What changes did you make to the car from the last time it ran?
later,
Cindy

[turbovanman²]

Also are you using stock cams or aftermarket? What changes did you make to the car from the last time it ran?
later,
Cindy

He put in Delta cams, that's the reason for this thread, :(

[navyboy65]

Seth,
You don't have to worry about whether the sprockets are indexed correctly, as that is a function of the cam key vs the pinning hole. And if you pinned the cams, you should be OK. As far as the outer hash mark. There should be one. But I did not check yours when they came back from anodizing. Not a big deal. Just put the gear so each bolt is in the center of their slots. Then take some a scribe and scribe a line that corresponds to the zero hash mark on the inner piece. I like to use some white nail polish in the scribed line to make it stand out so it is easier to see. Your cams would have to be way out to have a no start, as even from the factory some were 8-13 degrees off and as we all know they still ran OK. Did you check to make sure your cam sensor and crank sensor voltage was right?
Also are you using stock cams or aftermarket? What changes did you make to the car from the last time it ran?
later,
Cindy

I do have delta performance regrinds (not sure which stage, 1 or 2). From what I remember, I only changed the cam gears and didn't do anything else other that what is involved with that!

I did just go out and look at the adj gear (intake) on the car and compared it as best I could to the stock one I just took off and to me it looks like the adj one may have been assembled wrong. When I look at the pin hole on the stock one it is near the set of 3 cam sensor marks but the adj one (installed with some light advance in the pined position) is 90 degrees off. Pined the 2 mars should be above the pin hole but in my case the single mark is above the pin hole!
So it looks like I’ll need to pull the gear and see what’s up! Should I pop off the exhaust cam gear and check it too??? Is there any reference points I should line up and check????


Stock back of intake gear
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/pic1.jpg

Me holding the stock intake cam gear is if it were installed and pinned(as if looking from the engine out):
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/pic4.jpg


Front of installed FWDP intake gear, slightly advanced in the pinned position:
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/pic2.jpg


Above and rear view of the same FWDP intake gear showing the signle cam gear sensor mark above the pin hole:
http://www.turbododge.com/dodge_pictures/files/1/2/1/5/pic3.jpg

[dds78910]

When you install the cam gears the little 3/16" holes will need to point to each other to the middle of the head and the engine need to be at top dead center. I tried posting my pdf file of the intall procedure but it was too large if you want it I can e-mail it to you. Does the FWD cam gear have the notches on the back side like the stock intake cam gear?

[navyboy65]

When you install the cam gears the little 3/16" holes will need to point to each other to the middle of the head and the engine need to be at top dead center. I tried posting my pdf file of the intall procedure but it was too large if you want it I can e-mail it to you. Does the FWD cam gear have the notches on the back side like the stock intake cam gear?

Thanks, my e-mail is seth@gfire.us I am pretty sure installed the timing belt right. I used a dial gauge to get TDC and I pined the cam gears in place.
The FWDP gears modify the stock gears with a custom alum insert. So the sensor marks are there. I just think my problem is the gear was assembled wrong and I am 90 degrees off so the sensor is getting the wrong info! I think I should be able to take the four bolts out and advance the cam 90 degrees and then reinstall the bolts and fine tune from there!

[glhs727]

yes, it may well be the center is off from where the timing marks are. This will only apply to the intake cam gear since that is where the cam sensor gets it's pick up. If you look at a stock gear, note the position of the pinning hole versus the notch sequence, and rotate the inner/outer of the adj. gear to match then scribe your line. If you have any issues understanding what I said, feel free to call me as I will be at the shop today (we are having a local dyno day here)
later,
Cindy

[turbovanman²]

Thanks, my e-mail is seth@gfire.us I am pretty sure installed the timing belt right. I used a dial gauge to get TDC and I pined the cam gears in place.
The FWDP gears modify the stock gears with a custom alum insert. So the sensor marks are there. I just think my problem is the gear was assembled wrong and I am 90 degrees off so the sensor is getting the wrong info! I think I should be able to take the four bolts out and advance the cam 90 degrees and then reinstall the bolts and fine tune from there!

Looks like thats what happened. Your having the worst luck, :(

[dds78910]

E-mail sent!

[navyboy65]

Looks like thats what happened. Your having the worst luck, :(
I know and I am getting sick this luck!


E-mail sent!
Thanks for the e-mail Dustin. That the way I put the belt on.



Ok, now for the update!
Good news is I realigned the intake cam gear and sensor marks. And now the car runs!!!!

Bad news is I had to un-do and re-do the whole timing, again! More bad news. Now with the adj gear in and adjusted using turbovanman's quick degreeing, I am now pulling 9-10 vac at idle? Even when I had the gears close to 0 adjs I am pretty sure I was getting the same 9-10. This is down from 12 that I was getting with the stock gears!
The car seems to develop power a little sooner, 2750 RPMs. I went on the back roads and really opened it up and the most boost I saw was 9psi?(right now stock turbo, stock elecs and fuel injectors).
What should a pure stock TIII make for boost????

Any suggestions with the info provided???

Does it sound like I have stage 2 cams????

Since the exhaust cam looks to be a pain to remove and swap the stock back, would just putting the stock intake cam in make a difference?

Again just for info my head was resurfaced and ported as were the intake and exhaust manifolds.

[turbovanman²]

9-10, thats what I had with wopr's cams, bummer. It really sounds like the cam grind.

If you can't run both adjustable, I wouldn't bother just running one.

Stock is around 11 psi.

[navyboy65]

I'd still use both adjustable cam gears but I was thinking of just putting the stock intake cam in and leaving the regrind exhaust.

[2.216VTurbo]

I'd still use both adjustable cam gears but I was thinking of just putting the stock intake cam in and leaving the regrind exhaust.


Oh, and BTW Alan, thanks for nailing the no start problem:p

[navyboy65]

Oh, and BTW Alan, thanks for nailing the no start problem:p

Yes many many thanks!!!! For helpin me out!!!:hail::thumb:
And thanks to the rest of you too!:thumb:
Too bad it took 3 days instead of just 1.:mad:

Well I am well versed in timing the TIII(not indexing/degreeing though!) I think when I have another good day & time, out with the delta's and back in with the stock!
Anyone have some tips for getting the ex. cam out with out pulling the head?
I 've got a good system down for the intake!

[Turbo3Iroc]

You can disconnect the front, rear and side mount and jack the engine until the cams clear the strut tower.

Doing all the degreeing measurments in your sleep are ya? :lol:

[navyboy65]

You can disconnect the front, rear and side mount and jack the engine until the cams clear the strut tower.

Doing all the degreeing measurments in your sleep are ya? :lol:

Dreaming of degreeing would be a nightmare to me! It would just bring up this whole long ordeal with this car! Been about a year so far!:banghead:

Are you saying to undo all 3 mounts and jack the engine streight up? I was thininking I might be able to undo the pass side mount and jack it up, which should cause it to lift that side and tilt forward?

[Turbo3Iroc]

It might work like that. I personally haven't done it that was but saw it done. You could try it like you said then just disconnect another mount if you need more room.

[navyboy65]

Well I spent 3 hours + trying to get the ex cam out. I tried lowering and jacking it up with no luck!!!!!! I undid all the mounts and still couldn't get the angle I needed with the axles and everything still hookd up back there! What a waste of time. I compaired the ex cams. They look the same, the cam that's in the car I bought and installed when doing the head and was told it was a delta performance? So My plan is to finish putting it all back togeather, installing my ssqv bov and see how it runs with the stock intake cam and a possible performance ex cam???

[Turbo3Iroc]

You didn't try to pull the axle out for some extra movement?

I'm not sure how well the car would run with 2 different spec cams installed.

[navyboy65]

You didn't try to pull the axle out for some extra movement?

I'm not sure how well the car would run with 2 different spec cams installed.

I would have had to pull the drivers axle I think to get it(pass you can just unbolt the support to get more give) and possibly the exhaust off the turbo! The trans was also hitting the K frame. I just got to the point where I had done much more than I wanted to and didn't want to go any further. I am pretty sure now that you have to take off or lift up the head to do it!

I'll be finding out how it runs here either tomorrow or the next!

[2.216VTurbo]

I'd not be too worried about the different spec cams, I can't see why that would be a problem. Did you end up getting it actually degreed either with the long method or the cheater method (Simon:p)?

The difference between a degreed in TIII and a eyeballed TIII is night and day. Of course pinning/eyeballing had my cams 10-11 degrees off:o

[glhs727]

even though the cams look the same doesn't mean anything. You would have to take measurements because the difference although minute (and likely not visable to the naked eye) will translate into big issues. We tried a set of cams from elgin a long time ago that were suppose to be the stage 1 all correct for the t-3. Yeah, right..... no matter how we adjusted, the vacuum was low and because of that the ecu thought it was at partial throttle, was dumping more fuel and obviously ran like crap. Ended up have to trash the cams.
later,
Cindy

[turbovanman²]

even though the cams look the same doesn't mean anything. You would have to take measurements because the difference although minute (and likely not visable to the naked eye) will translate into big issues. We tried a set of cams from elgin a long time ago that were suppose to be the stage 1 all correct for the t-3. Yeah, right..... no matter how we adjusted, the vacuum was low and because of that the ecu thought it was at partial throttle, was dumping more fuel and obviously ran like crap. Ended up have to trash the cams.
later,
Cindy

Exactly, looking just doesn't work unless its some radical race cam and then its obvious.

Did you try to slide the cam out towards the drivers side?????? Way more room and you can angle the trans up to clear more things.

[navyboy65]

Exactly, looking just doesn't work unless its some radical race cam and then its obvious.

Did you try to slide the cam out towards the drivers side?????? Way more room and you can angle the trans up to clear more things.

I did try to take it out both sides with no luck!(I may give it another go though trying just the drivers side!)
I got it running with just swapping the intake cam and I know I need to fine tune the timing but I now have vac @ 15" inststead of 12-9". Throttle respones is a little poor right now, but when I get the chance I'll degree it and see how it does!


When I said the ex looks the same I was meaning that it didn't look like the so called performance cam had been reground. It looked like it had the same ammount of material on it as my used stock one?

Oh for those interested I found this on how to degree a TIII
http://users.ticnet.com/~superdave/Emiro.html
Its the long way!

[CaptMoe]

Nice find!!!
:thumb:

[JamesL]

This is a good method and I've used it before but it is the long way. I have found that once I find the very bottom of the lobe, I can use the dial indicator to locate both points(completely closed, and begining to open) on the degree wheel and then half it for the center.

[2.216VTurbo]

This is a good method and I've used it before but it is the long way. I have found that once I find the very bottom of the lobe, I can use the dial indicator to locate both points(completely closed, and begining to open) on the degree wheel and then half it for the center.


I used the long way and it was well, long. Not sure I'm understanding what you did to find exact TDC James? Once thats done the bottom of the lobe way or the top of the lobe way are equal in amount if fiddle right?

[JamesL]

I used the long way and it was well, long. Not sure I'm understanding what you did to find exact TDC James? Once thats done the bottom of the lobe way or the top of the lobe way are equal in amount if fiddle right?

I find TDC with a piston stop or a dial indicator and mark the degree wheel. Then I mount a dial indicator such that it rides the rocker. You can watch the dial indicator move and then the needle stops for a few degrees and then it moves again as the cam reaches "completely closed" and then moves to "begins to open". I mark these two points. The center of those two points is the center of the lobe. I check that to spec and adjust accordingly.

[turbovanman²]

I find TDC with a piston stop or a dial indicator and mark the degree wheel. Then I mount a dial indicator such that it rides the rocker. You can watch the dial indicator move and then the needle stops for a few degrees and then it moves again as the cam reaches "completely closed" and then moves to "begins to open". I mark these two points. The center of those two points is the center of the lobe. I check that to spec and adjust accordingly.

That's close to what I do, :thumb:

[navyboy65]

Well I had a little time today, so I tried to jacking up the trans/drivers side. But no luck again! I tried all kinds of twisting and prying but even if I moved the master cylinder or just the resivor out of the way the strut tower would still be in the way. I jacked till the trans was hitting the frame, I tried jacking at different points and each time I still needed to beable to lift another 4 inches or so!
Has anyone on here ever got the exhaust cam out with the engine in the car and head still on as I am 99.9% sure you can't, unless you un-hook alot of stuff and get some really good angles or lift the engine up and take the came out!

I am planning on trying the quick degreeing and see how the engine runs, tomorrow. If it seems to work well, time allowing, I'll try the a longer methood to see if I can fine tune it better!
Seth

[iTurbo]

I had considered removing the stage I cams from my Spirit R/T but it looked like I was going to run into the same thing. I agree removing the exhaust cam will require removing the axles and motor mounts and anything else in the way and raising the passenger side of the engine up enough to clear the strut tower. I'd remove the thru-bolt on the driver's side trans mount and lower that side with a large hydraulic jack underneath so that the drivetriain is tilted enough to allow the cam to slide out.

[navyboy65]

I did the quick degreeing. I now am getting 16-17 on the vac! Plus performance seems to be improved a little, some more power earlier on the the RPM's. Turbo seems to spool up a little sooner and I got on it on my test drive and got the turbo to do 11PSI!

Down side is, the inital push on the throttle drops the rpms?

Being me, it bugs me so when school work allows I am going to try and get that dang ex cam out ond my stocker back in. Which Means
pulling at least the drivers axle, unhooking the exhaust at the turbo, unhooking my power steering return hose, and most likely all the mounts. WHich all this should add up to an interesting time!

[navyboy65]

Ok, I had sometime today so I worked on getting out the performance cam. And I did it. You had to take out the drivers axleshaft and all the stuff to do that. I then jacked up the pass side of the engine, unhooked the trans mount/bobble strut and lowered the trans as much as possible.(which isn't much)
I had to max out my jack and think I was lifitng the car a touch because I didn't unhook the front mount. But I just barley cleared the fender. I also had to undo my power steering line and take the rad fan out.

SO I got the stock cam back in, did the timing belt and fired her up!
Vac is 17-18 @ idle. I am sure I need to fine tune the timing gears as initial throttle respons it poor, starts to want to die and the rpms shoot up! Engine sound good!
Any Ideas on my throttle respons or you think its the timing too.

Oh, just a reminder, I did have the head ported as well as both manifolds, would that change vac or the way it runs(as in RPM and throttle response)

Thanks, Seth

[turbovanman²]

Stock cal???

I am running stock cams, big time ported head, custom intake and ported manny, 58mm tb, Stage III turbine, 20 inchs vac, throttle response is awesome. The cams are dialed in to the stock specs.

[navyboy65]

I currently am running stock cal. I've got a Trim call on order and should be getting it within a week.

[navyboy65]

OK, latest. I spent a while degreeing the long way. I actually had to use both the long and short method to get the right results. But I should be pretty much right on 104 & 121!!! I took it for a test drive and it screems pretty well but I was still getting poor intial throttle response, sometimes it wanted to die?
I think I have found the cause. The main vac line off the intake that branches in to 3-4 different things, I replaced a section with new silicone and it seems with the high vac it is collapsing flat! So I think I just need to replace that section, and possibly anywhere else I put the silicone hose, if it collapses, and I should be good to go.
As soon as I get the trim cal, I should be even better off!

[Turbo3Iroc]

I had the same thing happening to me on my daily driver R/T. I found a very small vac block at mcmaster-carr with 2 1/8 npt taps on 2 of the sides.

[navyboy65]

Latest. I replaced that silicone hose section with the heavy duty regular vac line and I still had the same idle/initail poor throttle response. My vac would vary from 18-10? Sometime no problems and other time I would. I did put in a used HKS SSQV BOV, and I un-did the vac line from it and applied vac and it wouldn't hold vac? Is that normal? I didn't test my stock bov but I put that back on and went for a test drive. at first I still had the same problems, but I think that was due to me not tightening one of the turbo hoses down all the way, as when I go to the bottom of our main road and went to open it up the hose poped off!!! After I put it back on, no problems now! Idles fine, no irractic vac reading, and throttle response is great!

[turbovanman²]

Good to hear, :thumb:

The BOV should hold vacuum, if not, you will have a vacuum leak, which is bad.

[navyboy65]

Good to hear, :thumb:

The BOV should hold vacuum, if not, you will have a vacuum leak, which is bad.

Yeah I am very happy to have the car in good running condition now!
As for the bov and vac, that's what I thought! Which I think explanes alot of my probs! Especialy now that they seem to be gone since I took it out and went with the stock bov!

[rx2mazda]

You know how much psi that stock BOV can handle right? I've been silently watching your thread and i'm glad you got your car all sorted out.

[turbovanman²]

You know how much psi that stock BOV can handle right? I've been silently watching your thread and i'm glad you got your car all sorted out.

Yeah, 0 psi, :lol:

[navyboy65]

You know how much psi that stock BOV can handle right? I've been silently watching your thread and i'm glad you got your car all sorted out.

I thought I read somewhere the stock BOV tops out @ 19-20 psi. Right now I should be only making 10-11 tops as I'm stock turbo and not vac/computer mods right now.
Does anyone know for sure what the Stock BOV can handle?? I could see a bad one @ 0psi?

[turbovanman²]

I thought I read somewhere the stock BOV tops out @ 19-20 psi. Right now I should be only making 10-11 tops as I'm stock turbo and not vac/computer mods right now.
Does anyone know for sure what the Stock BOV can handle?? I could see a bad one @ 0psi?

It was more of a joke but the stockers are known for leaking, even at stock boost levels, even more so when you turn it up.

[Turbo3Iroc]

Yea I have split them apart at only 14 psi. I wouldn't run them over stock boost and even then people have had problems with them. Rick Diogo sells a nice bolt in setup.

[Ondonti]

For those with elevation, remember your vac won't read the same.

[2.216VTurbo]

For those with elevation, remember your vac won't read the same.


I dont think anyone here considers themselve quite as elevated as you do Brent:lol:

Seriously though Seth, the stock BOV doesn't belong anywhere near your car:amen: They may have been good for 13-14PSI new but add 17 years and they are good for nothing:amen: The Bosch Audi/Passat/Porsche plastic BOV is a nice unit that fits exactly in the stock location (on the fresh air side) and I've run them on several project cars and never had one leak. Guys on VW Vortex etc have shown them blown apart but those guys are like Simon, they can break anything:p

[rx2mazda]

I dont think anyone here considers themselve quite as elevated as you do Brent:lol:

:lol: Good one......

+1 on the bosch unit. I took a ride with Rick D in his TIII shadow @ 30lbs on the bosch BOV. NO leaks. Make sure you get the one with the brass internals if you go that route. The part number is readily available if you google it, there like 38$ IIRC. Go to a porsche/VW dealer.

[turbovanman²]

Guys on VW Vortex etc have shown them blown apart but those guys are like Simon, they can break anything:p

Damn, :(

[navyboy65]

I'm trying to get the SSQV fixed, but that dang snap ring is a pain. I even bought new pliers today and there is just not much room there to get it off! Also I am having problems with my replacement silicone vac hoses, some have too thin of walls and collaps under vac(think I got them out though). Others get hot and pop off fitting, my new prob today! I'll be trading out the silicone for std rubber! SO I recommend staying away from silicon or at least the spectra band stuff!

[GLHNSLHT2]

Rubber balloons and sucks shut too. Polyurethane vac line is the way to go. Blows those others out of the water. Here's my T2 setups, one with computer controlled boost and one without. http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2652

[turbovanman²]

I'm trying to get the SSQV fixed, but that dang snap ring is a pain. I even bought new pliers today and there is just not much room there to get it off! Also I am having problems with my replacement silicone vac hoses, some have too thin of walls and collaps under vac(think I got them out though). Others get hot and pop off fitting, my new prob today! I'll be trading out the silicone for std rubber! SO I recommend staying away from silicon or at least the spectra band stuff!

I run silicone lines but they are not cheap 2 cents crap, they work awesome, :thumb:

[Turbo3Iroc]

I use silicone hose from Treadstone without a problem. There is cheap stuff out there and good stuff, you have to know what to stay away from.

Can you post a pic of that snap ring?

[rx2mazda]

I run silicone lines but they are not cheap 2 cents crap, they work awesome, :thumb:

+1 :nod:

[CaptMoe]

:lol: Good one......

+1 on the bosch unit. I took a ride with Rick D in his TIII shadow @ 30lbs on the bosch BOV. NO leaks. Make sure you get the one with the brass internals if you go that route. The part number is readily available if you google it, there like 38$ IIRC. Go to a porsche/VW dealer.

Where was this info when I was looking for a BOV?

Rick D charges alot more than $38...:mad:

[rx2mazda]

Where was this info when I was looking for a BOV?

Rick D charges alot more than $38...:mad:

I don't know how much Rick charges as I didn't buy one of his set-ups, I just know that they work. Did you buy one from him? if so, how much?

[navyboy65]

Latest; BOV on hold as I am still having a vac issue. Here goes:
Start the car, vac rises right up to 18-17. Let it idle for about 10-15 seconds and I can see the vac to start to slowly decrease. Bottoming out between 15-10in mg. If I tap the throttle it'll stumble and then rev some. If I push and hold the throttle about half way it'll stumble some and finally smooth out! back to idle, it'll be back at 17-18 in mg. Idle for another 15-20 seconds and vac drops again?
Any ideas? I went through and replaced 80% of the junk silicon with std rubber vac and emission hose. Zip tied or clamp every connection too.
Is there anywhere the car has a vac resivor or something simmilar? I was thinking it might be a leak in the hvac vac system???
Any insight would be helpful.
Oh this might be unrelated but I am getting code 21 & 52 which is O2, I think on of the wires my have come loose during the vac harness work(Since I did an O2 wireharness reroute in the are of the work). Started to rain so I hope the weather will be better tomorrow!
THanks, Seth

[rx2mazda]

Can't remember.......Have you checked/cleaned the IAS motor? It is attached to the throttle body and is responsible for idle air help. There is a plunger on it that seats onto the TB and and sometimes they get gummed up or broken.

[WickedShelby88]

Sounds like either that or a goofy TPS, but I'd be leaning more towards the IAS. My SVO(I know not a TM, but similar symptoms) used to do that crap all the time and I'd have to tap on the gas a few times before it would come out of it. Was annoying as hell.

[2.216VTurbo]

I worked on a freinds VNT car that had a bad power brake booster diaphram that used to give symptoms like that. Cap off the big line that goes to it just for a quick test... Brakes will work but you will have to cram the heck outta them.

[glhs727]

I worked on a freinds VNT car that had a bad power brake booster diaphram that used to give symptoms like that. Cap off the big line that goes to it just for a quick test... Brakes will work but you will have to cram the heck outta them.

yes, and you should have a good checkvalve in there too. Make sure that is working as well.

[navyboy65]

I checked the AIS/IAS, Couldn't test its function but looked intact and I cleaned it off as it had a little junk on it. As for my O2 problem I checked the wiring and it looks fine. I did solder and shrink tubing over any of my repairs so they look fine. I am getting code 21(too high or too low voltage) & 52 (O2 signal doesn't change), does this pretty much mean the O2 did die? I have some millage on this O2 but not much, do the things die fairly easily? I have an air to fel gauge and it was showing things still working but now seems to stay rich/full richm, if I rev the engine I can get it to go less lean but not much?
As for the vac leak, I removed more of the junk hoses (replaces with std rubber vac) as I found at low temp they seem strong and won't collapse but add a little engine heat and they can close right up. It seems as though the vac problem has stabalized but if I have any more probs I'll test for a bad brake booster.
Thanks for the tips guys!

[navyboy65]

OK, I got a new O2 sensor and now that seems to be ok! As for the vac, I have now replaced 95% with new std rubber and my vac seems fine now. Took it for a trip into town and some shopping and only gave me a sight problem once. I've got about 1-2' left to replace with rubber vac line and I think I'll be good. Then I can start playing with the ssqv bov. Which I got all back togeather, and seems like it donesn't leak now. Plus I got some snap ring pliers that have no problem with the ring! Crazy too cause the pliers were only $11 at the local parts store and came with 4 different pliers! That was money well spent!