super afc

[babydollsneon]

hey guys got an 05 srt 4 that i am trying to hook up my super afc to. I only have 4 wires left and wondering where they go. I have a pink, orange, blue, and purple left. let me know what i got to do.

[contraption22]

I don't know of anybody using one of those, but here is the instructions from their website.

http://www.apexi-usa.com/pdfInstallation/46.pdf

[babydollsneon]

yeah i figured out that part but I was looking to see if someone had already installed a super afc on their srt 4. I just don't know how to tune the afc once I have it installed. so just looking for a few good pointers to help me.

[contraption22]

yeah i figured out that part but I was looking to see if someone had already installed a super afc on their srt 4. I just don't know how to tune the afc once I have it installed. so just looking for a few good pointers to help me.

I have never played with these, but I know how they work and have seen the damage they can do.

Basically this device tricks the computer into seeing less boost than it is really getting.

Make sure you have reliable ways of monitoring air/fuel and knock before you attempt to play with it.

Remember that the computer uses the MAP to determine fuel AND timing retard. So as you take out fuel, you are also in a sense advancing the timing.

[t3rse]

No one uses one for a reason.

[CSXT802]

No one uses one for a reason.

Thats funny I use one in my CSX-T (with the safety of meth of course). I think my power output speaks for it's self.

[babydollsneon]

Well I got it working and left it at stock settings because I don't want to hurt it. I will have an egt in there to monitor my temps but I need to know how to set the ne points and the hi and lo settings for the map.

[contraption22]

Well I got it working and left it at stock settings because I don't want to hurt it. I will have an egt in there to monitor my temps but I need to know how to set the ne points and the hi and lo settings for the map.

You're also going to want to get a wideband oxygen sensor and a scanner to monitor knock before tuning with an AFC.

[babydollsneon]

so really I can't get nuts with tuning until i have those things? I am just wondering if I can take it to the dyno shop and have them tune it and it would be fine?

[contraption22]

Well they should have the wideband for sure. So you could have it tuned there. As long as you keep it safe you should be fine. But I would still take some device to monitor knock, as it's likely the dyno shop will not have anything to do that with.

[Aries_Turbo]

what mods do you have to require such a device?

Brian

[Aries_Turbo]

Thats funny I use one in my CSX-T (with the safety of meth of course). I think my power output speaks for it's self.

why would you use one of those when you could modify the computer to do the same thing, safer? unless it has some other cool features, i cant see using one of those for hardly anything.

[babydollsneon]

no mods other than staight 3" exhaust, manual boost controller, and a few less vacuum lines. Its fast but not like my first gen neon that had a stock 2.0 sohc in it with a .63 t3 on it and 2.5 injectors with a srt 4 intercooler on it. I ran a 13.8 with that setup at 8psi boost and it was narly in 3rd gear.
It went the best of 101mph in the quarter.

[babydollsneon]

The only reason I put the Super afc on was because I have it. It was given to me in trade and I had read that it helps when you put big fuel to the srt 4s with a bigger turbo.

[Aries_Turbo]

meh. sell it and get a stage 2 ecu and supporting mods.

you can use it to dial back the map signal to compensate for large injectors but the tip sensor will probably get really pissed (unless there is a line for that) but thats not the biggest issue... .

the biggest issue is that it jacks the ignition advance timing through the roof cause the ecu thinks the boost is less and it will be really bad for the engine.

IE dont do it. sell it.

Brian

[babydollsneon]

Then why does everybody on srt forums talk about it and why are people using it with stage 2 and making huge hp with them after they put on a big turbo and bigger fuel injectors?

[CSXT802]

[QUOTE=Aries_


the biggest issue is that it jacks the ignition advance timing through the roof cause the ecu thinks the boost is less and it will be really bad for the engine.


Brian[/QUOTE]

Thats why there is the meth injection. I would not use one with out it. The meth will allow you to use the jacked up ignition timing.

[mario03SRT]

This site is so full of naysayers it's like a bunch of grampa's on here. :lol:

I have yet to get a cal that is either workable at all, or right for my setup or did not just crap due to poor chip quality. They all have had drawbacks. I have a collection of chips which are dead or poor performing to say the least. "Oh well they are only 30.00 a copy" well after 5 or so it gets sucky and what is going on in the engine is more harmful than 2 more degrees of timing or afrs in the high 11's or low 12's. I do read all of the I Blew My ---- up Again Threads on here and most are from poor tunes.

Getting the AFR spot on throughout the rpm range while in vac, partial boost, and boost make a ton of free HP and driveability. And you can do it in no time with a wide band and a laptop (to record the curve thru the rpm range) with any type of AFC.

Yes by changing the amount of boost the ecu is seeing via map signal will "possibly" disrupt the exact timing map in the ecu for the given load, afr, baro, rpm, pressure etc. It thinks it's seeing 15 psi lets say but is really pushing 17 psi. This is NOT the end of the World! Everyone hopefully knows that the stock tunes are conservative and Mopar uses all the extra fuel to keep the cylinder temps/egt's very low for warranty and longevity purposes for ALL kinds of Douches who drive thier products. There is a lot of fat to be trimmed and HP to be had. CSXT802 is putting down around 20 more HP with one over both of our STG5 cals from FWD and it spools faster. We have nearly identical setups.

Also AFCs are excellent for rescaling larger than stock injectors for a spot on idle and part throttle not to mention WOT as was stated earlier.

The optimal setup is to adjust the FP as close as possible and fine tune with the AFC.

Until you have done it and see the results then I suggest that you don't knock it!

FYI,
Marion

[badandy]

Reading this reminds me of the old school days. Tuning is tuning...isn't it? I'm not trying start a war as there is ALWAYS a better way to do things providing you have the funds...but aren't results results?

We used to run around with turbo bleeds and map bleeds and zener diodes and g-valves on maps and adjustable regulators and whatever else we could find to fool the stock computer...and I have to admit that I have not had a car yet that was any faster than my 87 Shelby Z with +20's and a MP stage 2 computer (of course it did have other mods like exhaust etc.)

The great land of calibrations is definately a step in the right direction...but I'm with Mario on this one...I haven't had one yet that really impressed me. In other words we are still having to fool the calibrations to get the tune closer to what we need...aren't we? (most of us).

If you want to do it right go with FAST...aside from that it has been my experience over 18 years worth of messing with these cars that there are many methods to acheiving the desired results...which method works best for you is the key.

...my little more than .2 cents

[stage3]

I gained 35whp tuning the car with a DTEC.

[babydollsneon]

so I am running 18psi with alot of timing being pulled out because the knock is seeing still. I can hook up the knock to the afc and read it at all times! I will get a wideband for it and an egt to tune it accordingly. Now I have used zener diodes alot so in essence you have to richen up fuel accordingly I know that. This is not my first rodeo with a turbo dodge, but it is the first time using any type of AFC's. So I was wondering if anybody else knew how to set the HI and LO points and NE points with the stock computer so I could make a little more hp.

[contraption22]

so I am running 18psi with alot of timing being pulled out because the knock is seeing still. I can hook up the knock to the afc and read it at all times! I will get a wideband for it and an egt to tune it accordingly. Now I have used zener diodes alot so in essence you have to richen up fuel accordingly I know that. This is not my first rodeo with a turbo dodge, but it is the first time using any type of AFC's. So I was wondering if anybody else knew how to set the HI and LO points and NE points with the stock computer so I could make a little more hp.


The SAFC does not have the ability to retard timing. So how will you compensate for the extra boost and advanced timing that you will get when you take out fuel, especially if you are already seeing knock?

[Aries_Turbo]

ugh.... i hate safc's bleeds, zeners and the like.

problem is that sometimes the best way is less money than the wrong way. on a turbododge, a safc or a RRR are alot more expensive than a handful of eeproms, a burner and a PM to me for a walkthrough on how to start messing with cals. im not always willing to do it for you but im willing to help you do it for yourself.

with both you need a wideband.

im not saying it wont work. im saying it isnt the best way to do things and harder and depending on the setup, more expensive.

with the SRT, i can see it being cheaper than a factory ecu but when the knock sensor is pulling timing to keep the motor together or you are spraying meth because you absolutely have to or the motor will pop, you are tuning foolishly.

unfortunately, there isnt a real cheap DIY ECU tuning solution for an SRT. its either a factory ecu or stage kits or knowing someone with a SCT setup.... wait a min... SebringLX on here is an SCT dealer. hmmm. i bet he could help. possibly for a reasonable fee? you might want to ask him to see what he could do over the mail.

Brian

[CSXT802]

This site is so full of naysayers it's like a bunch of grampa's on here. :lol:

I have yet to get a cal that is either workable at all, or right for my setup or did not just crap due to poor chip quality. They all have had drawbacks. I have a collection of chips which are dead or poor performing to say the least. "Oh well they are only 30.00 a copy" well after 5 or so it gets sucky and what is going on in the engine is more harmful than 2 more degrees of timing or afrs in the high 11's or low 12's. I do read all of the I Blew My ---- up Again Threads on here and most are from poor tunes.

Getting the AFR spot on throughout the rpm range while in vac, partial boost, and boost make a ton of free HP and driveability. And you can do it in no time with a wide band and a laptop (to record the curve thru the rpm range) with any type of AFC.

Yes by changing the amount of boost the ecu is seeing via map signal will "possibly" disrupt the exact timing map in the ecu for the given load, afr, baro, rpm, pressure etc. It thinks it's seeing 15 psi lets say but is really pushing 17 psi. This is NOT the end of the World! Everyone hopefully knows that the stock tunes are conservative and Mopar uses all the extra fuel to keep the cylinder temps/egt's very low for warranty and longevity purposes for ALL kinds of Douches who drive thier products. There is a lot of fat to be trimmed and HP to be had. CSXT802 is putting down around 20 more HP with one over both of our STG5 cals from FWD and it spools faster. We have nearly identical setups.

Also AFCs are excellent for rescaling larger than stock injectors for a spot on idle and part throttle not to mention WOT as was stated earlier.

The optimal setup is to adjust the FP as close as possible and fine tune with the AFC.

Until you have done it and see the results then I suggest that you don't knock it!

FYI,
Marion

Thanks for speaking up Marion. I'm all for burning chips, if thats your thing. But I rather change things in car if I want. And the AFC allows you take advantage of the meth by letting you have more aggressive timing. Hell while I was waiting for a revised stage 5 cal I drove the the car for a couple months with the knock sensor unplugged. That should give you an idea of how safe the fueling is on the stage 5. On that note if there is anyone who has put down more WHP using a STOCK UN-PORTED 1 piece intake speak up and tell us how you got there.:amen:

[babydollsneon]

Exactly what I mean, afc can be very useful, I can hook up the knock sensor to the afc. In essence I could control everything with it. All it seems to be like is a map clamp but with more options. I can turn fuel up or down on the injectors so I could put a return line kit on it bump fuel pressure up take away knock and f*ing yeeha fun!!!!

[babydollsneon]

I had a 95 neon running on 2.5 turbo injectors and that computer ran it like a champ!!!! everybody said to how do you run low impedence inectors on a high impedence sytem without it burning out the drivers? I just plugged them in used a srt4 intercooler and a .42 comp/.63 exhaust t3 off of a thunderbird and I ran 13.8 at 101mph in the quarter! Beleive me I pissed off alot of people in that car because I $350 into it when I was done. I did what I had to do to make it work!!!!

[contraption22]

Exactly what I mean, afc can be very useful, I can hook up the knock sensor to the afc. In essence I could control everything with it. All it seems to be like is a map clamp but with more options. I can turn fuel up or down on the injectors so I could put a return line kit on it bump fuel pressure up take away knock and f*ing yeeha fun!!!!

But can you retard timing with the AFC?

[mario03SRT]

But can you retard timing with the AFC?

No there is no timing retard possible with an afc. But that is the good thing about having a adj distributor on the TD car, but maybe the only good thing:nod:

[contraption22]

No there is no timing retard possible with an afc. But that is the good thing about having a adj distributor on the TD car, but maybe the only good thing:nod:

Ahh but the vehicle in question is an SRT-4. And as far as I know, the only way to retard timing is to either have an aftermarket ignition box with retard capability (which usually do not allow you to taylor the ignition curve very much) or a custom flash.

Even in the case of cars equipped with a distributor... you can back off the base timing to reduce the chance of knock, at the possible expense of low or no-boost efficiency.

I surely see the benefits of the AFC and I will not deny many are using such piggyback devices with success... but there are some serious drawbacks and limitations.

[mario03SRT]

so I am running 18psi with alot of timing being pulled out because the knock is seeing still. I can hook up the knock to the afc and read it at all times! I will get a wideband for it and an egt to tune it accordingly. Now I have used zener diodes alot so in essence you have to richen up fuel accordingly I know that. This is not my first rodeo with a turbo dodge, but it is the first time using any type of AFC's. So I was wondering if anybody else knew how to set the HI and LO points and NE points with the stock computer so I could make a little more hp.

Babydoll,

I have used in the past a LO of 20 and a HI of 80. So all corrections in the LO (20) column are for idle and low rpm/lLoad/Cruise and corrections for the HI (80) are for WOT. (80% of throttle position/Load is WOT). This is where you do your street/dyno tuning from as the ecu goes into "open loop". So the safcII will extrapolate the values from 20 to 80 to to keep all things equal in between.

If you are using injectors that are already matched to the ecu then nothing is needed in the LO column keep it at zero. If you are going large injectors on the stock ecu then your will have to trim down the fuel, I use a scan gage on OBD II cars to actually view the long and short term fuel trims as I adjust. On a TD you can use an OTC 4000 to get the trim in the ball park.

As far as NE points just spread out the point thru your working rpm range. If you get into a area in the rpm range that might need a finer cut on the fuel/afr space the NE points closer etc............

I would like to say that for the money and bang for the buck a Megasquirt 2 from Unaclocker is the WAY to go. Thats my next step this winter.

FYI,
Marion

[Aries_Turbo]

Brian is selling prebuilt megasquirts?

Megasquirts are a great option for a neon and even a SRT if you are willing to convert back to stock once a year if you have inspection/emissions. a friend of mine has a 97 eclipse GS converted to turbo running a MS. works great.

Brian

[babydollsneon]

mario the settings you are referring is the 10% and 80% settingsin the menu after the hi and lo points correct?

[babydollsneon]

so in all efforts to use the sper afc I am taking it out because I am possibly selling the 05 srt 4 with 32,000 miles I will not take any less than $15,000 for it. I beleive that my first gen with megasquirt will be ten times what an srt-4 will ever do. I have megasquirt and a LM1 wideband to do all the tuning I need to do. It pisses me off that an srt 4 can only run 14.0s at the track with slicks, the agp actuator that everybody is bragging about, and the big front mount intercooler. thats bull!! especially when a honda with a stock 1.6 sohc ran a 13.2 @ 122 mph with 8psi boost. I hate hondas, I love dodge though dodge needs to get their sh*t together and come up with better ways to make them fast!

[babydollsneon]

I am going back to my 80's turbo dodge and I will have a 12 sec car by next spring because I wasted my time, effort and money on this car. It is supposed to be a 13.5 car out of the box and I have yet to see a completely stock srt4 run a 13.5! So to all those guys that love dodge stay with the old turbo dodges because they are much more fun and so much easier to tune.
They also aren't expensive to fix!

[contraption22]

Something is wrong with your car. I went 13.6 bone stock except for slicks with my 2004. Others have gone faster. I also had little success with stiffer wastegates.

[babydollsneon]

I have not physically seen any srt4 run faster than a 14.0 without any mods. I am willing to sell my srt 4 for $15000. I am also selling my super afc 2 with the msd tach driver for $300. If you want it let me know.

[Aries_Turbo]

sell yours. buy this one. already done and cheaper.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28698