Upgrade axles and What

[Mr overkill]

i see people getting axles from drive shaft shop and g force (did anything come outta that ) and people are getting rid of the equal length setup because of the u joint IS is poss to upgrade to a solid u joint and that "fixes" the weak link or will a unequal length stand up and not add to torque steer


Let me know



thanks all

[1966 dart wagon]

i see people getting axles from drive shaft shop and g force (did anything come outta that ) and people are getting rid of the equal length setup because of the u joint IS is poss to upgrade to a solid u joint and that "fixes" the weak link or will a unequal length stand up and not add to torque steer


Let me know



thanks all

search around for a couple threads on here of the discussion, i dont recall his name, but i did get to see photo's of someone who was running alot of power i believe 400hp or so on equal length shafts, the intermediate shaft went, or the bearing and destroyed the block, and transmission, that sucks, when my passenger side went i ditched the inter. shaft too and i had nothing wrong with it, figured why not.

[tryingbe]

I went from equal to unequal. No noticeable increase on torque steer.

But then, whoever drive a TD and doesn't have at least one hand on the steering whee is just dumb.

[cordes]

I went from equal to unequal. No noticeable increase on torque steer.

But then, whoever drive a TD and doesn't have at least one hand on the steering whee is just dumb.

I drive with my knees in the shadow all the time. :(

[tryingbe]

Try to do that while looking at this.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/ibrake.jpg

[BadAssPerformance]

U-joint FTL! :(

http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/z/misc/14no04_d-shaft_01.jpg

DSS FTW! :)

[cordes]

Try to do that while looking at this.

http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/ibrake.jpg

I'm actually so big panic stops etc. aren't effected by it. I once drove home from Canada to my place in Royal Oak MI, and I only touched the wheel with my hands once after we got out of the busy section of Windsor we were in.


U-joint FTL! :(

[IMG]http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/z/misc/14no04_d-shaft_01.jpg

DSS FTW! :)

Yikes JT, talk about a rough day. I am glad I just stripped mine out.

[Marcus86GLHS]

imo, there is zero advantage to the equal length setups...the pix above illustates a distinct disadvantage of the equal length setup (ouch).

[Mr overkill]

yup i saw saw that but would a heavy duty "solid" u joint have prevented this

[t3rse]

Why bother is a better question? Probably not in all reality, considering space requirements. If one were adamant about keeping the equal length setup, the smart way would be to incorporate another cv joint.

When you break 350 hp in a fwd car, it is going to torque steer unless you are running a spool. There is no way to get around it. Engines and transaxle assemblies are not perfectly balanced, and due to offset you are going to have more mass to turn on one side of the engine than the other, whether you have an equal length shaft or not. Even ATB diffs will pull to and fro as they compensate.

[Mr overkill]

hum ok here is the other question in a unequall length setup how strong are they

[cordes]

hum ok here is the other question in a unequall length setup how strong are they

I haven't broken another intermediate shaft since I went to the long axle. ;)

[t3rse]

Kind of hard to break parts you don't use. :nod:

Here are some basics: http://boostedmopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12058

[John B]

I drive with my knees in the shadow all the time. :(

Sometimes I get scared and turn loose of the wheel and hide under the dash...:wow1:

[inmyshadow]

I've been planning on going to unequal length setup when I do my motor swap.

The intermediate shaft is so damn heavy. I figured, the unequal length will save alot of of unsprung weight. Seeing the damage a failure can cause just reinforces my desire to swap out.

Besides, we all know when you go racing, bring a spare axle or two.

later

[John B]

Huh! Your '91 has equal length and mine doesn't? There must have been a mid year change in production. My VIN is 3B3XP6SJ4MT600299. Is mine earlier or later than yours?

[MiniMopar]

I figured, the unequal length will save alot of of unsprung weight.

The unequal setup will add some unsprung weight, since the intermediate shaft is technically "sprung" weight. Overall you'll have less weight in axles with the unequal setup, however.

[inmyshadow]

My convertible shadow is 3b3xp65j7mt556699. It is a factory 5spd turbo convertible 5spd. That might be why my shadow had equal length axles. The reason why I bought was because the 5spd and color make the car rather rare. My friend has a 91 Blue Shadow ES convertible 5spd, his is also equal length.

Perhaps I'm getting something backwards here.

I'm going to unequal length axle to rid myself of the equal length that is on the car.

The intermediate shaft is heavy. It maxed out the 25lb scale we had on hand. The unequal axle weighed in at 17lbs. But weight varies because we weighed several equal/unequal length axles.

We figured that equal length setup is close to 40lbs in weight. I have the 17lb axle waiting. Losing 23lbs is alot of weight to lose, unsprung and overall.

later



The unequal setup will add some unsprung weight, since the intermediate shaft is technically "sprung" weight. Overall you'll have less weight in axles with the unequal setup, however.

[8valves]

How many people out there actually have aftermarket axles? DSS makes some, but has anyone purchased any?

[cordes]

How many people out there actually have aftermarket axles? DSS makes some, but has anyone purchased any?

I know a few of the chicago guys have them. I think I heard that they were talking about ceasing production of our products all together due to low demand though.

[BadAssPerformance]

How many people out there actually have aftermarket axles? DSS makes some, but has anyone purchased any?

I have a set of Level 5 DSS axles in the Z, MiniMopar Russ uses them, plus a couple more sets in Chicago...

[Turbo3Iroc]

I have the level 2 axles in my car. I like them, well worth the money.

DSS also stands behind their product. If you happen to break one of their axles they will replace it for less than half the cost of a new one.

How much stouter are the level 5 axles?

[BadAssPerformance]

L2 is supposed to be good for 400hp, L5 is supposed to be good for 1000hp but it depends on the weight of the car obviosuly. L5 is what Mike Crawford's Pro car has in it.

[87csx2.4]

How many people out there actually have aftermarket axles? DSS makes some, but has anyone purchased any?I like advanced auto's axles lifetime warrantee:eyebrows:I have only broke one axle at the track out of hundreds of passes.

[Pat]

yup i saw saw that but would a heavy duty "solid" u joint have prevented this

A solid U joint would not have helped these.

[Mr overkill]

DAM ok ok guess ill start looking to see where to get some REAL shafts made


other then driveshaft shop who should i look for

[Xtrempickup]

you better tell me Alex when you find them because i need them too

[Mr overkill]

why u didnt break anything at 400hp

[cordes]

A solid U joint would not have helped these.

You win. :thumb:

[Pat]

I like advanced auto's axles lifetime warrantee:eyebrows:I have only broke one axle at the track out of hundreds of passes.

Automatic?

[87csx2.4]

Automatic?Yeah it's an auto which is a lot easier on them.

[BadAssPerformance]

A solid U joint would not have helped these.

Ouch!

[John B]

DAM
other then driveshaft shop who should i look for

What's the problem with DS axles?

[t3rse]

overpriced

[tryingbe]

What's the problem with DS axles?

Most Turbo-Mopar people are too poor.

[Turbo3Iroc]

Yeah they aren't cheap but they are money well spent. Your odds of breaking one of these is very slim. The one local guy that did break one after about 5 seasons had it replaced for only ~$100.

JT, I was looking on their site and they don't list the level 5 axles anymore. Doesn't mean they don't make them, but I wonder if they dropped them?

[t3rse]

You have to call. You're better off talking to them (ask for Frank).

[Turbo3Iroc]

Yeah I know. I don't need another set just yet but it would be the L5s is why I was concerned.

[8valves]

I like advanced auto's axles lifetime warrantee:eyebrows:I have only broke one axle at the track out of hundreds of passes.

That's the same for me, but I've never had the car hooking hard enough to put any merit with it. This was with a 5 speed.

Now, I wonder how a trans-braked auto would treat them. Probably just as hard as a 5 spd car... maybe worse if the car is under load already as well.

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah they aren't cheap but they are money well spent. Your odds of breaking one of these is very slim. The one local guy that did break one after about 5 seasons had it replaced for only ~$100.

JT, I was looking on their site and they don't list the level 5 axles anymore. Doesn't mean they don't make them, but I wonder if they dropped them?

They still sell them, a couple local guys just got 2 sets... I'm trying to figure out a length issue with an L-body set right now.

[Ondonti]

has anyone actually proven the ones for our cars are actually improved over stock? What is the difference in materials from a L2 and L5?

And I dont mean what they "claim"

DSS made a set of stage 5 axles for Matt Monett's 3000gt. He snapped one, put in a stocker on that side. Ran again and broke the other stage 5 instead of the stocker.
It was determined that DSS just sold him a rebuilt axle and pretended it was moly this and upgraded that.

So in that case, I dont want to pay 50% replacement fee for a 600 dollar stock axle.
Seems like a lot of people have good luck with stock axles as long as they are not wheelhopping.

Corby told me he has never broken an axel before. (broken everything else though :( )
..But the oldschool TDers here in Utah (brett and dempsey) broke axles all the time in MUCH slower vehicals. I know both of them never seemed interested in fixing their wheelhop, yet to this day they seem convinced we have weak axles.

[BadAssPerformance]

I broke 2 stock axles back to back in my car and have made many runs on the L5 DSS axles since w/o issue. I'd say they work well and they are definitely not 'stock' axles, far from it.

Straight from DSS... recently.., this is what they are made of:

-GKN forged CM ends that are induction hardened
-Tripod internals are made by DSS
-L2 4340 CM center bars - est. 400whp
-L5 300M CM center bars - est 800-1000whp

The L5's are what held over 1000hp in Mike Crawfords car. Vehicle weight has a lot to do with HP capability of axles or clutches or any other drivetrain components. A light L-body should be able to use stock axles for 400whp (look at Reeves and OhioRob) so the L2 axles would be capable of higher than the DSS rating. A heavy Spirit R/T might not be as lucky.

Breaking CV axles weather stock or aftermarket is also a function of axle angle (12° max recomended) and also making sure that they do not get stubbed (overcompressed) or stretched where the joint can pull apart. This has a lot to do with drivetrain centering, etc, not the axles...

[ekimdam]

...Vehicle weight has a lot to do with HP capability of axles or clutches or any other drivetrain components. A light L-body should be able to use stock axles for 400whp (look at Reeves and OhioRob) so the L2 axles would be capable of higher than the DSS rating. A heavy Spirit R/T might not be as lucky.


They're not using stock axles... but I'll let them speak to that.

[Speedeuphoria]

Rob ran a TBI axle for a long time, last I knew he was using a shortened mini axle

[BadAssPerformance]

By "stock" I meant OEM style axles... not exactly performance aftermarket pieces

[Ondonti]

I broke 2 stock axles back to back in my car and have made many runs on the L5 DSS axles since w/o issue. I'd say they work well and they are definitely not 'stock' axles, far from it.

Straight from DSS... recently.., this is what they are made of:

-GKN forged CM ends that are induction hardened
-Tripod internals are made by DSS
-L2 4340 CM center bars - est. 400whp
-L5 300M CM center bars - est 800-1000whp

The L5's are what held over 1000hp in Mike Crawfords car. Vehicle weight has a lot to do with HP capability of axles or clutches or any other drivetrain components. A light L-body should be able to use stock axles for 400whp (look at Reeves and OhioRob) so the L2 axles would be capable of higher than the DSS rating. A heavy Spirit R/T might not be as lucky.

Breaking CV axles weather stock or aftermarket is also a function of axle angle (12° max recomended) and also making sure that they do not get stubbed (overcompressed) or stretched where the joint can pull apart. This has a lot to do with drivetrain centering, etc, not the axles...

Did you have heavy duty saginaw axles breaking or...crappy ones?

Seems like L body guys have it a bit harder then others because of fitment..so they seem to require something better.

I dont particularly want to break axles but I have 92+ Saginaws in my cars.

BTW, they are using GKN ends? What makes them choose those?

[t3rse]

Are all things equal between l2 and l5 minus shaft material?

[BadAssPerformance]

Did you have heavy duty saginaw axles breaking or...crappy ones?

Seems like L body guys have it a bit harder then others because of fitment..so they seem to require something better.

I dont particularly want to break axles but I have 92+ Saginaws in my cars.

BTW, they are using GKN ends? What makes them choose those?

I broke brand new Saginaw car axles and shortened Saginaw minivan axles too.

L-bodes are light, if they get good stock axles they can last forever if they are the right length.

I was told that GKN was the only one to offer the forged ends in the material they wanted. DSS was a large axle re-building shop for many years before tehy became a performance axle shop.


Are all things equal between l2 and l5 minus shaft material?

Correct

[Reeves]

I like advanced auto's axles lifetime warrantee:eyebrows:I have only broke one axle at the track out of hundreds of passes.

I broke 17 of the Autozone lifetime axles...

[t3rse]

BTW, they are using GKN ends? What makes them choose those?

GKN didn't originally make large spline ends for our car, but now you can get remans with these ends.

I call BS on 300m handling twice the torque as properly treated 4340 with all thing else being equal. Material properties just don't back up that claim.

[BadAssPerformance]

It is not the material strength or heat treatment that makes the difference, rather the improved shock resistance.

All I know is that they worked in Crawfords car has ~1000hp.

[Ondonti]

crawford was pushing 1200 on spray though.........on the passes where his motor didnt throw up.

Talking to a neon guy and he said for upgrades they use shadow passenger axles and PT cruiser driver side axles. Is this because of length?

[BadAssPerformance]

Stage 1 upgrade for a neon is the Shadow axles and hubs cuz the hub side splines are larger than the neon axles. I thought both worked, not sure about PT?

[Warren Stramer]

FWIW I never break axles unless I get into tire shake, I use stockers from 3.3L Dynasty (saginaw). Stephane was using the same last time we talked. He said he rarely broke them.
When I do break one it is always the inboard spline twists off in the Diff. How much $$ are the DSS L5s?

[Mr overkill]

hum


ok

[Shadow]

FWIW I never break axles unless I get into tire shake, I use stockers from 3.3L Dynasty (saginaw).

X2 I've never broke an axel in the Charger (knock on wood!) I snapped a solid u-joint in half 2 years ago and built a solid half shaft and have had NO problems since. I usually launch at 6000+rpm and have cut high 1.6 60's (although I'm usually mid 1.7's)

[Turbo3Iroc]

Thats a nice piece Shadow.

Warren, are you running equal or unequal axles?

[Warren Stramer]

Warren, are you running equal or unequal axles?

I'm using unequal, some of them I have to shorten for the right (long) side cause I have my engine moved over quite a bit.

[BadAssPerformance]

FWIW I never break axles unless I get into tire shake, I use stockers from 3.3L Dynasty (saginaw). Stephane was using the same last time we talked. He said he rarely broke them.
When I do break one it is always the inboard spline twists off in the Diff. How much $$ are the DSS L5s?

DSS lists the pair of L2's for $699 plus $100 for the upgrade to L5.

Not sure how creative they would have to get to change the lengths... probably depends on how much.

Stephane had some place called Axle Systems in Canada making his axles... were those the 3.3L ones you mention?

[Speedeuphoria]

I know Stephane said over on TD.com that he used stockers into the high 8's or low 9's before having any issues

[Warren Stramer]

Stephane had some place called Axle Systems in Canada making his axles... were those the 3.3L ones you mention?

I took a good look at his driveline in Topeka and asked him what axles he was using as they looked like the same thing on my car and he told me they were Chrysler stock.

[BadAssPerformance]

What do they look like? What diameter is the center bar shaft?

[Ondonti]

Cant cindy go see whats on that car right now?

[Shadow]

What do they look like? What diameter is the center bar shaft?

It's thicker, they are a beefier looking axel....peroid.

[Warren Stramer]

I can post a pick of my Saginaw axle tomorrow if you like.

[Reeves]

The Dynasty axles are the same I use from Stan, only he shortens them for me for use in my L-body.

Matt Wright, ekimdam, and me are breaking them at the c-clip area occasionally.

5 spds vs. auto's in this thread though...

[BadAssPerformance]

Cant cindy go see whats on that car right now?

The car was shipped back to him?

Pics and shaft diameter measurement of the Saginaw dynsaty axles would be great. :thumb:

[Warren Stramer]

here you go, notice inboard splines missing, that is where they break when it shakes bad. I always carry a strong magnet to fish them out at the track.

[t3rse]

Note that they break where there is a sharp transition in major and minor diameters....

[Speedeuphoria]

Sounds like it needs a Steve Locket polish and heat treatment?

[RoadWarrior222]

Good info in here, I think we were getting into the mentality of the the ricer crowd of "you're not making power unless you're breaking axles" when if you had stuff set up right, stock axles can hold up pretty far into the 10s or lower. Then also, some of the tuner crowd that boast of breaking axles are dealing with these finger thick things, and all it means is they've managed to get 200ftlb out of the motor instead of the stock 100ish. I've seriously glanced under the front of some cars and thought, "where the hell are the drive shafts" thinking the spindly little things were tie rods or something at first glance.

What are those axles that seem to break where it waists down near the joint? Those are GKNs aren't they? I noticed there is a often a lot of machining scores in those and I figure if you smoothed, polished and peened those they'd hold up a lot better, particularly as you might notice the breaks don't actually happen at the thinner part, but in the waist area.. Probably the DSS heat treatment is intended to beef up that area.

I dunno if you could do something similar where those saginaws break, just to transition the change of shape smoothly, it's more difficult with the splines there, but you might be able to lose 1/8" of spline to blend. Or maybe even fill 1/8" of the spline and the groove with weld.

[Reeves]

I'm going DSS as soon as I get the money. Probably be a winter project.

[1990 shadow vnt]

How is everyone using stock axles?
I broke two sets and am not pushing anywhere near as much hp.
They last five hard runs. Thats it!
The hold for the burn out(Line lock and ebrake 5100rpm)
They they break lauching off the line(Slick 14psi and 5100rpm)
Which is the best?
Drive shaft shop,dss, or gkn, or stephans axles systems?
Thanks Ryan.