Custom timing belt routing

[Lotashelbys]

This was an idea that me and a few others have been talking about for about 6 or 8 months now and I finally did something about it. That is idler between the intake cam and I-shaft run of the timing belt. That is the worst spot for belt deflection and with the idler there I think it will dampen ALOT of that and hopefully keep the I-shaft teeth and and belts alive much longer.

I pulled the motor out of a buddies beater Spirit R/T earlier today(thats why its ugly) and it was just sitting on the cherry picker and I wasnt tired yet,hmmm....
Well a half an hour later and it was all mocked up. It fits like it was supposed to come that way with only grinding a few things off the cast aluminum alt/AC bracket and drilling a hole for the idler pulley and counter-sinking the P/S bracket for a flat head socket cap screw to take place of where the idler used to be. Yes,it still uses the stock belt and you can still run the A/C
Heres a few picks of the mocked up proto-type. I will have to put a prettier version in the next car that goes together for some road testing.....
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2078.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2079.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2080-1.jpg

[black86glhs]

Jackson, Did that come out of Mitch's Spirit....lol.
I take it that is the mod we talked about at Carlisle(sounds and looks like it)? Looks great and should help the belt grab both the cam and int shaft a lot better.:thumb:
Man you do great work!:nod:

[bansheenut420]

Man you do great work!:nod:
x10 :nod: :thumb:

[rx2mazda]

would love to see how long the timing belt last running like that(long term). good idea! Also, think you can get away running a lower belt tension? BTW, what are all those shiny things on the shelf in the back :)

[turbovanman²]

Hmmmmmmmm, looks good but I maybe SOL unless I switch back to the smaller int shaft pulley. I left the 8 valve one on as the TIII weighs tons more. Maybe I'll drill lots of holes in it, :D

[TurboSedan]

this is probably a stupid question but i'm curious. what about running two idlers and a longer belt? one in the stock location and the other where you put it? or is the run between the exhaust cam sprocket and tensioner short enough anyway?

-------------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Dodge SPiRiT R/T
'87 Shelby CSX #667
'98 Buick Regal GS

[Lotashelbys]

So,this has been bothering me all week to see if this works so I had to try it. Just got back from the first test run in my white Spirit with the idler on the other side

It seems to run a bit smoother and ALL of the harmonics or belt slap on the rev-down is gone. I guess they should of made them this way just like every other DOHC motor out there. Heres some pics.......
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2082.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2081.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2083.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2084.jpg

[CaptMoe]

Jackson!!! Jackson!!! Jackson!!!

Build It!!! Build It!!! Build It!!!

[Blue Iroc R/T]

Chrysler Builds it! Jackson REFINES it! :thumb:

Good Job Jackson! :nod:

[glht_omni]

Chrysler Builds it! Jackson REFINES it! :thumb:

Good Job Jackson! :nod:

the only problem is jackson was supposed to be born about 17 years before he actually was, so he could have been working on the original production and we would have had less design problems with these cars.
(mumbling in the background "i know he wouldnt have let them roll off the line with these crappy plastic radiators");)

[glht_omni]

i never learned how to weld and i dont own any good drills, mills, etc. so jackson will have some work coming from me this winter, cam gear pins, down pipe, shifter, idler mod and whatever else he comes up with between now and then.

[turbovanman²]

this is probably a stupid question but i'm curious. what about running two idlers and a longer belt? one in the stock location and the other where you put it? or is the run between the exhaust cam sprocket and tensioner short enough anyway?

-------------------------------------
Joshua Mitchell
'91 Dodge SPiRiT R/T
'87 Shelby CSX #667
'98 Buick Regal GS

I think thats the problem, trying to find a longer belt.


So,this has been bothering me all week to see if this works so I had to try it. Just got back from the first test run in my white Spirit with the idler on the other side

It seems to run a bit smoother and ALL of the harmonics or belt slap on the rev-down is gone. I guess they should of made them this way just like every other DOHC motor out there. Heres some pics.......
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2082.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2081.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2083.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_2084.jpg


Interesting, maybe I will see if I can do that using the 8 valve intermediate sprocket, I still don't have my head back, getting mad, :mad:

[Lotashelbys]

i never learned how to weld and i dont own any good drills, mills, etc. so jackson will have some work coming from me this winter, cam gear pins, down pipe, shifter, idler mod and whatever else he comes up with between now and then.

Ha! Pick a number and get in line. I have so many projects I cant dont know where to start! Umm,only have two full restos to be done by spring,thats easy......NOT
I actually have this wild and crazy idea for a 6th gear setup in a 568. If that works you might as well add that to the list:thumb:


Simon
You could possibly use this trick with the big I-shaft. Just round up a smaller tensioner pulley or drill the block in a different spot and then put a stock TIII idler where I did. But,if this fixes the problem with the I-shaft you wont need the big one if you run the dist off your cam.....

[turbovanman²]

Simon
You could possibly use this trick with the big I-shaft. Just round up a smaller tensioner pulley or drill the block in a different spot and then put a stock TIII idler where I did. But,if this fixes the problem with the I-shaft you wont need the big one if you run the dist off your cam.....


Thats true but the other reason I was using the 8 valve sprocket is weight, the TIII gear is frickin heavy, and I am sure having that stop and go isn't good for the gear teeth. Maybe I'll drill it out and do the idler mod.

[Ondonti]

sign me up for 6th gear...as long as I can get one that is a big underdrive for my daily driver :P
2000ish rpms @ 70mph would make me happy

Otherwise I am not sure what you would do for a 6 speed setup unless it involved using shorter gears from the earlier 523's.

[glht_omni]

or is he going for a salt flats record in a iroc, lol.

that would be crazy, 40+ mpg @70mph in 6th gear!

i could stop racing for the 1/4 mile on the street and just take bets on the first one to 180mph:thumb:

[bansheenut420]

My IROC will be trying to join the 130 club out at the salt flats this year. Sounds easy, but the salt flats have the traction coefficient of snow. :eek: Should be fun. Not many cars on that list. :D

[glht_omni]

a T3 built for 10k rpms and a 6th gear:wow1::rockon:

[Turbo Joe]

I'm wondering with this new idler relocation mod, if the belt tension could now be reduced, there for reducing the pressure on the I-shaft bushing and maybe reduce i shaft failures?
good work anyhow Jackson..

[shellboy]

SO, any updates on this mod jackson???

[Lotashelbys]

SO, any updates on this mod jackson???

Not yet,im putting two cars together to drive all summer with this setup along with my custom machined stock retainers. I KNOW this will work and TIII timing belts will last as long as any other belt will.

Joe
This setup it mainly for the longer life of the I-shaft bearings and the teeth. It takes ALL the harmonics out of the run between the intake cam and I-shaft like it should of been designed:amen:

[Lotashelbys]

Ok so this thread got me wanting to do this tonight to the car I have been driving lately. So I was gonna do another custom belt route but I didnt have the FHSCS needed to fasten the P/S bracket where the idler usually mounts. Heres a few pics of the modified A/C bracket that the idler bolts to when running it this way. I did this one with a die grinder but anymore that I do will be cut off on a mill so its prettier and totally flat.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_3888.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_3890.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_3891.jpg

[CaptMoe]

Awesome work as usual Jackson...

[Lotashelbys]

Just got done routing the timing belt the custom way in the car I am daily driving. It took about an hour start to finish the do it. I will get some miles on this thing and see how everything works out........

[turbovanman²]

Wish I could figure out how to do this without using the smaller intermediate gear, :o

[rx2mazda]

I would like one of these to test out on my car my friend. LMK when its ready to ship :D

[Mario]

Love the idea. Solves my big problem I have with that slack area. I might have to try this out as soon as I get my spark/fuel issue sorted.

[black86glhs]

:needpics1:

[turbovanman²]

:needpics1:

Go to page 1, crackhead, :eyebrows:

[black86glhs]

Go to page 1, crackhead, :eyebrows:Not those you Douche!!!!:rolleyes: I meant of his daily driver he just converted.:D

[turbovanman²]

I think there is room to add an idler on my setup-you will have to degree the cams again though. I might play aorund later on. AFter I installed my custom int sprocket last night, I was watching the belt and yep, it definately buzz's around at that point, :(

[Lotashelbys]

Simon,
You should be able to add an idler on the front side if it just contacts the belt and use the 8valve I-shaft gear. If you could get enough room or next time the motor is out(he he) drill and tap the block farther away from the stock tensioner hole so you can run it this way with the big I-shaft gear.


Anyways,after driving it for a few days I noticed with the belt tension set at 95LBs I think the belt is now too tight. I backed it down to 80LBs and will try that for a while. With it set there it now looks and sounds like it did at 95 and the stock routing.......

Bryan,
Here I took a few pics just for you......
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_3892.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_3893.jpg

[turbovanman²]

Simon,
You should be able to add an idler on the front side if it just contacts the belt and use the 8valve I-shaft gear. If you could get enough room or next time the motor is out(he he) drill and tap the block farther away from the stock tensioner hole so you can run it this way with the big I-shaft gear.



Yeah, I have enough deflection I could get away with it. I have enough bits I can mock up something on an engine stand, :thumb:

This is my prototype int gear-

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20stuff/Sonywork273.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20stuff/Sonywork277.jpg

[black86glhs]

Simon,
You should be able to add an idler on the front side if it just contacts the belt and use the 8valve I-shaft gear. If you could get enough room or next time the motor is out(he he) drill and tap the block farther away from the stock tensioner hole so you can run it this way with the big I-shaft gear.


Anyways,after driving it for a few days I noticed with the belt tension set at 95LBs I think the belt is now too tight. I backed it down to 80LBs and will try that for a while. With it set there it now looks and sounds like it did at 95 and the stock routing.......

Bryan,
Here I took a few pics just for you......
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_3892.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/lotashelbys/100_3893.jpgThanks. I don't care what they say, you are ok in my book.:thumb:
Looks really good and stock, too.:nod:

[rx2mazda]

Simon,
You should be able to add an idler on the front side if it just contacts the belt and use the 8valve I-shaft gear. If you could get enough room or next time the motor is out(he he) drill and tap the block farther away from the stock tensioner hole so you can run it this way with the big I-shaft gear.


Anyways,after driving it for a few days I noticed with the belt tension set at 95LBs I think the belt is now too tight. I backed it down to 80LBs and will try that for a while. With it set there it now looks and sounds like it did at 95 and the stock routing.......


Still waiting for my alternator bracket.......................

Hey, Stallionovich!(LOL)Has the weather broken there yet? I'm ready to come up and tear it up on them go carts!!!!!!!!!!LMK.

[zin]

Now for the $64,000 question... Would the idler from a 2.4 work in place of the unobtainable stock idler? That would kill many birds with one stone!

Mike

[bansheenut420]

Unobtainable? Cindy has them.

[Ondonti]

Thats pretty snazzy looking Simon.

[turbovanman²]

Thats pretty snazzy looking Simon.

Thanks, :thumb:

[CaptMoe]

Jackson, that is a great color combo man.
Makes me want to go out and paint my car white and powder coat all the hardware blue underhood...:thumb:

[Lotashelbys]

Jackson, that is a great color combo man.
Makes me want to go out and paint my car white and powder coat all the hardware blue underhood...:thumb:

Thanks Moe!
You cant quite see from the pics but that is actually wrinkle blue:D

[zin]

Unobtainable? Cindy has them.

Well, with enough $$ ANYTHING is obtainable... :D It's my assumption that since the 2.4 is a dime a dozen in the J/Ys these days this might be a way to not only improve the functioning of our TIIIs, but reduce the cost as well...

Mike

[Blue Iroc R/T]

As usual, Nice Job Jackson! That wrinkle blue looks great. Nice license plate also. Looking forward to seeing it in person. :nod:

[Lotashelbys]

500 miles still running strong:thumb:

[turbovanman²]

I just did this mod on Wop'r's car, I'll post pics in a bit. I also found a source for cheap idler pulley's, not Dodge OE but another car, :nod:

[Lotashelbys]

I got like 10K on my DD with setup and about 8 others locally that do and we got like 20K on all them with 0 issues.......

[2.216VTurbo]

Sweet!:clap: I remember this thread from a couple years ago and I just kinda looked back at some of it but could you recap a little bit? Do you HAVE to run the 8V Int gear OR the custom gear you showed to make your set ups work? Are any of those cars you set up just running the bracket mod with idler and no other changes? Did you need to redial the cams in after, seems like it would retard them some taking up that front sdie slack...

[turbovanman²]

Sweet!:clap: I remember this thread from a couple years ago and I just kinda looked back at some of it but could you recap a little bit? Do you HAVE to run the 8V Int gear OR the custom gear you showed to make your set ups work? Are any of those cars you set up just running the bracket mod with idler and no other changes? Did you need to redial the cams in after, seems like it would retard them some taking up that front sdie slack...

I haven't tried this with an 8 valve int sprocket yet but I will soon.

I would venture a guess that cam timing needs to be redone, the engine I am building now, I can't do a true back to back as the head was millled so the cam timing won't be the same, but I'll check anyways to see how close it is.

[Lotashelbys]

Sweet!:clap: I remember this thread from a couple years ago and I just kinda looked back at some of it but could you recap a little bit? Do you HAVE to run the 8V Int gear OR the custom gear you showed to make your set ups work? Are any of those cars you set up just running the bracket mod with idler and no other changes? Did you need to redial the cams in after, seems like it would retard them some taking up that front sdie slack...

Yes this works very well. You do it by using all the stock TIII pulleys. All im doing is taking the idler from the back and putting it in the front. You just have to cut some material off the A/C bracket and countersink the P/S bracket. All thats really required is the new fasterers. All my TIII cars will be set up this way and everyone I do from now on will be as well. Im sure it moves the cam timing some but there are so many variables from head thinkness the where the cam key groves were cut from the factory that any TIII should be degreed in to find the "sweet spot" anyways......

[CaptMoe]

All my TIII cars will be set up this way and everyone I do from now on will be as well. Im sure it moves the cam timing some but there are so many variables from head thinkness the where the cam key groves were cut from the factory that any TIII should be degreed in to find the "sweet spot" anyways......

Is there a waiting list...:eyebrows:

[turbovanman²]

Yes this works very well. You do it by using all the stock TIII pulleys. All im doing is taking the idler from the back and putting it in the front. You just have to cut some material off the A/C bracket and countersink the P/S bracket. All thats really required is the new fasterers. All my TIII cars will be set up this way and everyone I do from now on will be as well. Im sure it moves the cam timing some but there are so many variables from head thinkness the where the cam key groves were cut from the factory that any TIII should be degreed in to find the "sweet spot" anyways......

I am having a hard time finding the correct bolt to countersink, on mine, I just ground down a bolt until it fit but its hard to remove and tighten up.

[Lotashelbys]

I am having a hard time finding the correct bolt to countersink, on mine, I just ground down a bolt until it fit but its hard to remove and tighten up.

Just go to a hardware store and get an M10x1.5 x 25mm FHSCS.

[Shadow]

Is there a waiting list...:eyebrows:

I believe there is. ;)

[turbovanman²]

Just go to a hardware store and get an M10x1.5 x 25mm FHSCS.

Thanks, after I posted, I found some, :D


Is there a waiting list...:eyebrows:

Just do it yourself.

[turbovanman²]

Just finished the cam timing, forgot to mark the ex gear but did with the intake, with the head milled a bit, the timing in the intake wasn't changed.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20stuff/Workcamera256.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/turbovanman/TIII%20stuff/Workcamera257.jpg

[Lotashelbys]

Simon you should of put that FHSCS in the tensioner before you tensioned the belt. Its a PITA to put that bolt in cause the blet rides right in the center of it.....

[turbovanman²]

Simon you should of put that FHSCS in the tensioner before you tensioned the belt. Its a PITA to put that bolt in cause the blet rides right in the center of it.....

I know, I will retension it when I put the bolt in, no biggie, :p

[Millerman340]

Simon ...So, What is the P/N of the new idler?

[turbovanman²]

Simon ...So, What is the P/N of the new idler?

I can't give you that, :eyebrows: but I do sell them-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47317

[mr b]

Yes I know this is an old thread but can someone tell me if Jackson is selling these and if so how can I get one?

[turbovanman²]

See post 59 for parts and PM Jackson, not sure if he makes and sells them.

[mr b]

See post 59 for parts and PM Jackson, not sure if he makes and sells them.
Thank you

[Kryp2nitE]

After moving the idler and using the modified retainers, whats the spec for belt tension? Belt is brand new if it matters.

Also bump for a great thread.

[turbovanman²]

Same as before, 95 IIRC.

[MNmopar]

Same as before, 95 IIRC.

I thought it was supposed to be lower with the idler mod, and came across this earlier in the thread...

"Anyways,after driving it for a few days I noticed with the belt tension set at 95LBs I think the belt is now too tight. I backed it down to 80LBs and will try that for a while. With it set there it now looks and sounds like it did at 95 and the stock routing......."

Not saying that's still the opinion of the t3 master, but you might want to double check before thrashing on it.:nod:

[turbovanman²]

Trashing on it?

You could be right, I thought it was 95 on everything, and I can't remember what I set my friends too when I did that mod.

[MNmopar]

"Thrashing", not "trashing", as in beating on it.:thumb:

The line I quoted was from Jackson, so at one point he was of the opinion that it should be less, I just don't remember what he ultimately settled on. When I talked on the phone with him as I was doing my spirit, I remember he said to do less than normal with the idler mod, but again, that was quite awhile ago now.

[turbovanman²]

Ah, thrashing makes sense, lol.

[rbrthrly900]

Hey, reading through this... Crank bolt... I do not have a bolt on my crank... Rather just a few that hold the main serp. belt. pully on... No bolt though... Maybe I am wrong, but I am pretty sure... I will check again tonight, as I just got this new Timing Belt Tensioner...

[turbovanman²]

Yes, you should have a crank bolt.

[rbrthrly900]

I am pretty sure that I have no crank bolt... I thought that was wierd... What size bolt is it??? Anyone know where I could get one Today... So I could work on it tonight... Lowes have one???
Let me know... Thanks...

[turbovanman²]

I am pretty sure that I have no crank bolt... I thought that was wierd... What size bolt is it??? Anyone know where I could get one Today... So I could work on it tonight... Lowes have one???
Let me know... Thanks...

Its 12x1.75 and its aprox 3-3.5" long.

[94GTC]

Being a TIII virgin, this along with the TI retainers looks like a must do, I am wondering, if I should use 80 or 95 lbs for the tension? I have not seen that Jackson changed from 80 lbs, so I assume this is what I want to use?

[Lotashelbys]

With a new belt I would go between 90-95lbs After the stretch 85 seems to be a good number.

[94GTC]

Thanks. I want the car to be right the first time.