Removing Balance shafts

[Xtrempickup]

Well diassembled my spare shortblock so i can start my build someplace. I know if i take out the balance shafts I need to plug a hole, what is everyone doing actually with that? there is one oil hole, are you guys tapping and putting a screw in it or what?

[raccoon]

I used a big washer and just tightened a bolt into the hole next to it. after putting in a metal rod locktighted and bashed in.

[iTurbo]

I tap the hole with a 7mm tap as deep as it will go. Then use a 7mm bolt, 20mm length and tighten it in with some JB Weld on the threads. Never had a problem with two TI and two TIII engines.

[butchsuppe]

I tap the hole with a 7mm tap as deep as it will go. Then use a 7mm bolt, 20mm length and tighten it in with some JB Weld on the threads. Never had a problem with two TI and two TIII engines.

Diddo.

[Bardo]

all i did was left the shafts in the engine and took the chain that connects them to the crank off. that way there not hooked up and theres no hole to plug

[Lotashelbys]

I usually drill the oil hole to 9/32" and tap it to 5/16-18 and get aa allen set screw and silicone that in till it gets tight at the end of the threads. That has never let me down and I have done it to like 50 or so motors:thumb:

[Xtrempickup]

how is leaving the shafts in and cutting the chain?

[Turbo3Iroc]

http://www.pbase.com/rmscott/image/6069784

[Xtrempickup]

ok so i guess that means i should drill and tap it and put a screw in it

[CaptMoe]

I would think just removing the chains would give you a similar jump in HP. I'm surprised no one else has done it that way. Unless they have and have come across an issue doing it...

[Johnny]

Here is some helpful info.....

http://polybushings.com/pages/plughole.html

[Blue Iroc R/T]

http://www.pbase.com/rmscott/image/6069784

I don't have access to this link from here at work, but IF I recall correctly, in the heading showing all the pics of the shaft removal, I reference a Link where Cliff Ramsdell came up with a better way than tapping the hole, by using a piece of rod, locktite and washer. If you don't find the link to Cliffs page, PM me and I'll locate it tonight when I get home. IMO, Cliffs way just seemed a little cleaner and easier.

[Turbo3Iroc]

Ralph, I only posted that to call out which hole needs to be plugged.

[turbovanman²]

I would think just removing the chains would give you a similar jump in HP. I'm surprised no one else has done it that way. Unless they have and have come across an issue doing it...

Thats an option but I would only do that if your doing it in the car, if rebuilding, remove them as they hold dirty oil and use a shallow oil pan or get a windage tray.

I would also highly recommend having the engine balanced.

[CaptMoe]

Thats an option but I would only do that if your doing it in the car, if rebuilding, remove them as they hold dirty oil and use a shallow oil pan or get a windage tray.

I would also highly recommend having the engine balanced.

Good points. Thanks Simon...

[CaptMoe]

Here is some helpful info.....

http://polybushings.com/pages/plughole.html

Wow, almost TOO easy that way...

[Blue Iroc R/T]

Here is the link to Cliff's method.
http://www.hometown.aol.com/mopartek/balanceplug.html

As you can see from the response in this thread, there are several ways to get the job done. If might be a good reference, so anyone about to attempt this will be able to review this thread and pick the best method for their situation.

[turbovanman²]

My only issue is Johnny's method, that piece of stock had better be flat and you need to remove every bit of oil or the RTV won't work-theres just so much pressure there. Its not a bad idea, to me, I wouldn't do it, no offense Johnny, friends still, ;) :nod:

[Xtrempickup]

i might go with Cliffs method

[Johnny]

Mine has been in my car for 4 years now with no issues.

But choice is what makes America!

Johnny

[bansheenut420]

I used a big washer and just tightened a bolt into the hole next to it. after putting in a metal rod locktighted and bashed in.

Thats what I did. Worked great.


My only issue is Johnny's method, that piece of stock had better be flat and you need to remove every bit of oil or the RTV won't work-theres just so much pressure there. Its not a bad idea, to me, I wouldn't do it, no offense Johnny, friends still, ;) :nod:

Thats why you tap a piece of threadlocked rod in there. :thumb: Mine doesnt leak at all. Simple FTW! :nod:

[glht_omni]

i drilled it and tapped then plugged it using a allen headed grub screw with the permanent loctite (green i think).

if you are going to do it, wither get a 2.2 cb pan or a windage/baffle pan, the oil will slosh around so much that on hard accelarating, braking or turning, your oil pressure will drop momentarily. i had this problem on a near stock turbo minivan, well minus the hard turning.

[Johnny]

oil will slosh around so much

That is why you NEED a baffled pan like this (well sort of)...

http://polybushings.com/pages/oilpan2.html

[glht_omni]

jonny, how much $$$ ???

[Xtrempickup]

there is no reason oil should slosh around that much considering as to leave the pickup dry any time, there is something like at least 4-4 1/2 qts in the pan, its not on an angle and unless you are rally driving, the motor doesnt move a whole lot, im guessing that there was life before baffled pans and also im guessing that the all turbo years before and including 89 2.2L without balance shafts from the factory

[glht_omni]

4.5 quarts for the whole system. 5.5 after you take out the BS and keep the 2.5 pan. when its running, 1 quart of that is in the filter.
trust me it will slosh around and you will lose oil pressure momentarily.

the life before baffled pans was putting a 2.2 pan on your non bs 2.5 and making it the same as a 2.2....period.

go ahead and see for yourself, just have a 2.2cb pan ready for when that light goes on.

oh, i did make the bottom of the pickup opening bigger too and it still caused the light to go on, got the 2.2 pan on and havent seen the light since.

[glht_omni]

just another thought for you guys to pick at. i know you pick up some hp by removing them, but on a high hp motor, wouldnt it be more beneficial to leave them on acting as a 4 bolt main, or a girdle for extra strength???

[Xtrempickup]

i dont even know what a 2.2L pan looks like compared toa 2.5L pan as i only own 2.2L cars. actually I have a 90 common block masi, maybe il steal the pan from that, not sure if they came with balance shafts. can you gut the Balance shaft assemble and run no chain and plug the hole and not change things? that sucker is dead weight, gota be at least 10-15lbs

[glht_omni]

they look close, the 2.5 pan is just rounder looking and the 2.2 has more curvy features in it.
usually just snag one from a 89+ horizon, base sundance, 2 dr reliant, anything light that might have came with the 2.2.
gutting the bs could work, but as much work as that would be, you would be better off buying the JY 2.2 pan or buying a crank scraper or tack welding some sheet metal plates in the pan to keep it near the pickup.

it made me nervous seeing that light everytime i got on the gas in the mini. i wont take my bs out of my r/t untill i have a 2.2 pan to do it. i'll probably go look for one this weekend at the pick and pull, i'll keep my eyes out for extras as they are cheap there and grab a couple if i can.

[Xtrempickup]

tryingbe has them for 45$ plus shipping, might buy one from him. i was told you can use the noncommonblock pan on it as long as you use the noncommonblock pickup tube

[glht_omni]

well i can get both cheaper at the yard, $25 maybe, if your not in a huge hurry, i plan to go find 2 or more this weekend.

[Xtrempickup]

actually getting to bea hurry, want my motor together asap as im taking it to the machine shop this week to get bored over, balanced all my parts ready to be put back in

[glht_omni]

damn i didnt know you were doing all that to it, i thought you were leaving it as is until needed. (this is for the iroc right?) yeah you might just want to get the other one, as i cant guarantee one for you yet.

[bansheenut420]

Ditch the balance shafts, and for a windage tray. Run the Ishihara-jonhson windage tray and oil pan baffle. A little pricey, but you can get much better oil control. A nice windage tray, and a baffle with hinged doors. Its a very nice piece. :thumb:

[bansheenut420]

taking it to the machine shop this week to get bored over.
Is an over bore needed? Or do you just mean the normal .010"-.020" over? I would go as little as possible becuase I have always heard its better to have a thicker sleeve for heat dissipation and just so they are stronger. But, maybe it doesnt make that big of a difference. I know your not gaining any power from the less than a sheet of paper bigger bore.
What is the general rule with that?

[boost geek]

tryingbe has them for 45$ plus shipping, might buy one from him. i was told you can use the noncommonblock pan on it as long as you use the noncommonblock pickup tube

You also will have to use a front non c.b. oil seal housing, and the seal wont fit a c.b. crank. It also wont bolt to the block. Get a pan off a tbi 2.2 c.b., just look under the car, a b.s. pan is flat on the bottom. A non b.s. 2.2 pan looks identical to a non c.b. pan. There is a "circle" on the bottom of the pan for the oil pick up to sit in. The pick up is the same as the non c.b. no balance shaft pan. Also, get the dipstick and tube from the same engine, the 2.2 dipstick is a bit shorter.
Maybe I'll post a pic later...

[Garffus]

Thanks for the info in here, i want to remove mine, but won't now until i have time to fab up a decent pan setup.

The cars need baffled pans from stock, if i took my 87z round one hard corner you'd loose all pressure and the lifters would drop for 2-3 seconds. If i went through a succession of 3-4 corners the oil would be so badly foamed you had to just stop and leave it for 2 minutes.. it did have wide tyres and a bespoke suspension setup mind.. but ive already noticed it with the RT and ive not abused it at all in the bends, its stock.. it won't do them :D well notlike the 87 could anyway...

[bansheenut420]

there is no reason oil should slosh around that much considering as to leave the pickup dry any time, there is something like at least 4-4 1/2 qts in the pan, its not on an angle and unless you are rally driving, the motor doesnt move a whole lot, im guessing that there was life before baffled pans and also im guessing that the all turbo years before and including 89 2.2L without balance shafts from the factory

Going up a long rounded on ramp is what caused my original oil problem that spun the bearing in my original motor. And that was with the BS still in! With out those shafts, oils going to be sloshing around up into the rotating assembly and having your crank splashing in oil is not really good for it. IMO a person is crazy if they dont do some kind of windage tray after taking out the balance shafts. I know my pre common block pan is shaped quite differently to help with this problem.

[glht_omni]

i am pretty sure the ishira crank scrapers are still available for the 2.2 and 2.5 around $119, think it was forward motion selling them.

[Xtrempickup]

then call me crazy, going with 2.2L commonblock pan

[glht_omni]

that would do it and a crank scraper would be the icing on the cake. thats the route i am going when it gets done on the r/t.

[glht_omni]

i am starting to like this one and the price isnt to bad, wouldnt need a crank scraper, but i think you have to supply a 2.2 core. http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=124&products_id=224

[Xtrempickup]

i looked at it, looks fine if you wna spend 175$ plus shipping for something that you can make at home that just wont be as pretty and make sure your pan is spotless, 50$ is a lot for cleaning in addition

[bansheenut420]

I am not sure about the crank scrapers. I didnt do that setup. But, Cindy at fwd has the windage/pan baffles. They are a VERY nice piece. I corner my car as hard as it can, without worrying, ever.

[bansheenut420]

then call me crazy, going with 2.2L commonblock pan

Take a cup of full cup of water with you to the track and put it in your car, and launch it hard. Watch what the water does. Thats what your oil is trying to do when you launch. Without somekind of windage tray, your oil is going to be splashing all the way up to the bottoms of the pistons! lol When it should be in the pan. Conering is not the only reason you want a windage tray. :nod:

[bansheenut420]

A pic for those wondering what the windage tray/pan baffle looks like.....
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/bansheenut420/oilproblem014.jpg
I would never risk my built shortblock by not spending an extra couple hundred bucks to make sure it stays happy. 200 is better than 2000. :thumb:

[Xtrempickup]

hmm i guess my car sure rides nicer than most, ive never had a mess or spill launching my car with anything in the cup holder

what does anybody think about the baffles that FWDp has for 299$

[bansheenut420]

hmm i guess my car sure rides nicer than most, ive never had a mess or spill launching my car with anything in the cup holder

what does anybody think about the baffles that FWDp has for 299$

lol You must not be launching very hard. I have had the damn stereo pop out. :evil: Damn cheap install kits! And that was with the stock turbo.

The picture above is the baffle she sells. Unless she is selling another one now aswell. But, its an awesome wellbuilt piece. :nod:

[Xtrempickup]

i have stuff i have to order from her, maybe il buy it who knwos, i have to see where i can save other money or barter with stuff i have so i dont spend too much on this


I guess lack of drag radials or slicks will change how a car launches

[bansheenut420]

I am only suggesting it to help out. I totally understand the money thing, building these things right is pricey. Im just saying fluids can do crazy things under acceleration, braking and cornering. Oil supply is just not the place to go cheap.

Even a good hard launch with street tires would do it. Slicks or radials would just make it worse.

[boost geek]

Finding these at the j.y. is easy. Look for 89 and up TBI cars, and take a quick peek underneath. Just make sure it's a c.b., and take the dipstick and tube, plus pick up tube while your at it. This one has a small dent to tap flat.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2207.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2209.jpg

99 percent of forum members probably know this already, but I like posting pics...:)
If you suck air with this pan, your car is probably laying on it's roof.

[CaptMoe]

lol You must not be launching very hard. I have had the damn stereo pop out. :evil: Damn cheap install kits! And that was with the stock turbo.

The picture above is the baffle she sells. Unless she is selling another one now aswell. But, its an awesome wellbuilt piece. :nod:

That's good to hear. I thought I was the only one losing the radio on launch...:D
But my problem is the entire trim panel comes off along with it...:mad:

[Johnny]

If you are doing corners, that pan still needs baffles or one way doors.

Johnny

[86trbolancer]

A pic for those wondering what the windage tray/pan baffle looks like.....
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj95/bansheenut420/oilproblem014.jpg
I would never risk my built shortblock by not spending an extra couple hundred bucks to make sure it stays happy. 200 is better than 2000. :thumb:




Who makes that one????

NICE PIECE!!!!

[glht_omni]

www.fwdperformance.com cindy is the owner over there.

[Xtrempickup]

eh i bit the bullet and ordered Cindy's baffles today. I also ordered my other stuff i knew i needed from her while i was placing the order. motor, pistons, rods, crank all went to machine shop today and il be dropping my flywheel and the belt pulley that rides the crank to them as soon I have them from those that let me borrow stuff so that the rotating assembly can get balanced. was told i would have it back in about a week from when he starts, so thats a good think, and its getting a new I shaft as he had them in stock

[glht_omni]

are you going to redyno it on all your previous mods, just the new engine being the only difference? or are you making any other changes?

[Xtrempickup]

making other changes while its apart, Stage 1 cryoed cams are going in with adj gears but thats about it, the rest is staying the same less rebuild, but i changed to the fwdp fuel rail and installed a large gpm tip in my devilsown after i dynoed it last time soo.... things are different and it will go back to the dyno sooner than later, this motor i want in and broken in to race by the end of august

[glht_omni]

hell yeah, it would be nice to see the gain and by the end of the month, thats awesome!
cant wait to find out, video tape it if you can, even crappy footage if you have to.

[Xtrempickup]

video tape, well who knows, hopefully everything goes back together as it should and runs properly and there arent any mishaps

[bansheenut420]

That's good to hear. I thought I was the only one losing the radio on launch...:D
But my problem is the entire trim panel comes off along with it...:mad:
The radio is actually a new trick since I got it running really good. lol The trim pannel has poped off everytime I have raced and forgotten to take it off. lol I am glad I am not the only one. :D




Who makes that one????

NICE PIECE!!!!

Ishihara-jonhson windage tray and oil pan baffle
You can get them at FWD performance. :thumb:

[Turbo3Iroc]

The radio is actually a new trick since I got it running really good. lol The trim pannel has poped off everytime I have raced and forgotten to take it off. lol I am glad I am not the only one. :D


I have the same issue with the dash trim flying off. It landed in the back seat once! I always take it off now also.

[Xtrempickup]

posted pics of the block and everything back from the machine shop in Pistons likes and dislikes thread.

[boost geek]

I just got my block from the machine shop. He plugged the b.s. oil hole, plus the two oil gallery holes without me even asking him, plus didn't charge extra for it.:D

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2251.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2252.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2256.jpg

[Xtrempickup]

I took some soft metal anchors and a bolt through the anchor and hammered the suckers as deep as they would go into the oil galley buzzed it smooth to the block and then used the bolt and little plate provided with my windage try set up. many have done it different ways, just wondering if there is any wrong way to do it. i didnt have a bolt that i could tap into it or the tap to do the block.

[glht_omni]

what are the other 2 oil galleys you had plugged?

tom whats the bolt and plate for? to cover the balance shaft oil hole?

[turbovanman²]

I just got my block from the machine shop. He plugged the b.s. oil hole, plus the two oil gallery holes without me even asking him, plus didn't charge extra for it.:D

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2251.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2252.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k302/boostgeek/100_2256.jpg

Thank me for that, :D

[Xtrempickup]

yes it came to use in one hole from the balance assembly to block the hole. I checked to make sure i didnt hammer too far and block the oil flow as that gally splits off the main , looks good, would take a lot to push it that deep and block it internally that the bearing wouldnt get any oil. somebody said it and i was like hmmm, better check, all clear