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rbryant
07-23-2008, 12:14 AM
These plates would replace the stock strut bushings and would require no cutting on the strut tower as they would bolt into the bottom side of the tower rather than the top.

I am working on the lbody prototype first for my GLHS. Is anyone else interested? I can probably also do them for the K based cars once I get these done and go and get a K based strut bushing to model it off from.

Prototype Image (click to enlarge):
9592


This doesn't show the bearings yet but I have an idea of a setup that would be simple cheap and very strong.

They will however require a coilover setup since the spring hat has to be under the actual adjusting plate and the hat is integrated into the stock strut bushing.

I don't have any pricing quotes yet but they would be far cheaper than ground control units and would fit our cars directly.

Thanks,

Rich

turbovanmanČ
07-23-2008, 12:19 AM
Not bashing but why are they needed? We can set our camber quite easily.

I would suggest if anything, make something to adjust caster.

MiniMopar
07-23-2008, 12:28 AM
The range of the strut offset bolts is limited if you are racing.

GLHNSLHT2
07-23-2008, 12:38 AM
camber plates are great for increasing the camber curve not just camber. Be careful when increasing caster on a FWD car. And simon if you look at the pic in Rbryants post you can see they're adjustable for caster too.

bakes
07-23-2008, 12:41 AM
i like the idea , needed them when i was road racing 2 years ago . is the bearing going to soild mounted which im looking for or rubber mounted? im trying reduce suspenion flex under hard accel.

2.216VTurbo
07-23-2008, 12:55 AM
I think I'm down for a set, could they be used with coil overs? Sounds like they could...

turbovanmanČ
07-23-2008, 12:58 AM
camber plates are great for increasing the camber curve not just camber. Be careful when increasing caster on a FWD car. And simon if you look at the pic in Rbryants post you can see they're adjustable for caster too.

Thats why I am asking, :nod:

Depending on price, I'd be down for a set, but not for a few months, kinda broke right now, :(

Turbo3Iroc
07-23-2008, 01:05 AM
I'm interested. Anyway they can be made to fit L and K based cars or are the strut towers too different? I know the bolt pattern is but that shouldn't be a big deal.

zin
07-23-2008, 01:23 AM
Cost is always a factor, but I'd have to say if the cost is reasonable: The line forms behind me!

Mike

rbryant
07-23-2008, 01:42 AM
i like the idea , needed them when i was road racing 2 years ago . is the bearing going to soild mounted which im looking for or rubber mounted? im trying reduce suspenion flex under hard accel.

No rubber just a special spherical bearing. I don't think I will bother with the complexity of the convex/concave slip joint and thurst bearing that the GC units use but I am looking into it.

-Rich

rbryant
07-23-2008, 01:44 AM
I think I'm down for a set, could they be used with coil overs? Sounds like they could...

Actually they probably do have to be with coilovers now that I think about it (that is always the default application with camber plates). I won't want to deal with a strut hat for a conventional spring. My mistake for thinking that for a second...

-Rich

rbryant
07-23-2008, 01:45 AM
I'm interested. Anyway they can be made to fit L and K based cars or are the strut towers too different? I know the bolt pattern is but that shouldn't be a big deal.

I can make both. I will probably just make different mounting plates with the same center so that there are no compramizes.

-Rich

bakes
07-23-2008, 01:52 AM
let me know when you got them up and ready for sale
James

rbryant
07-23-2008, 02:00 AM
Cost is always a factor, but I'd have to say if the cost is reasonable: The line forms behind me!

Mike

It will be more reasonable than what is on the market for other cars. I need to talk to the waterjet guy to get some estimates. I will keep them as cheap as possible.

The biggest issue with cost is how specialized the spherical bearing has to be and still be durable. Low cost is good but if it reduces quality is it is worthless....

-Rich

Austrian Dodge
07-23-2008, 03:16 AM
i'm down for a set, just need to get another set of coilovers :)

Frank
07-23-2008, 04:43 AM
Not bashing but why are they needed? We can set our camber quite easily.

I would suggest if anything, make something to adjust caster.


The range of the strut offset bolts is limited if you are racing.

Exactly. Well another benefit is that you can run stock camber with really wide wheels and not worry about torque steer because your steering axis (or 'Dave Point') can be at the center of the contact patch.

Sweet product!

Juggy
07-23-2008, 08:37 AM
Not bashing but why are they needed? We can set our camber quite easily.



yes but there is no real way to measure it for the average joe???

id be interested....but Im running one of them shelbydodgestrutbars on my L. they already need to be squeezed down 1/2" to fit, how thick are these plates going to be???

turbovanmanČ
07-23-2008, 01:25 PM
yes but there is no real way to measure it for the average joe???

id be interested....but Im running one of them shelbydodgestrutbars on my L. they already need to be squeezed down 1/2" to fit, how thick are these plates going to be???

Camber plates won't change that, you still need to have the camber measured.

Nemesismachine
07-23-2008, 02:03 PM
who had the welded on camber plates? I would be interested in a set of those, or even paying for a template and making them myself.

turbovanmanČ
07-23-2008, 02:25 PM
who had the welded on camber plates? I would be interested in a set of those, or even paying for a template and making them myself.

Maybe CSRacer?

rbryant
07-23-2008, 04:17 PM
who had the welded on camber plates? I would be interested in a set of those, or even paying for a template and making them myself.

Yea CSracer had some. You can already get those from GC and other places I am just wondering about the niche of bolt on ones since I already drew them up for fun.

-Rich

rbryant
07-23-2008, 04:21 PM
Camber plates won't change that, you still need to have the camber measured.

Mine would go on the bottom side of the tower so they wouldn't change anything on the top side other than the appearance inside of the strut tower hole. :)

-Rich

turbovanmanČ
07-23-2008, 04:55 PM
Mine would go on the bottom side of the tower so they wouldn't change anything on the top side other than the appearance inside of the strut tower hole. :)

-Rich

Huh? so your saying, if you adjust the camber with your plates, then toe isn't affected? :confused:

Again, never used them so newbie questions, :D

johnl
07-23-2008, 05:08 PM
I'm in Rich. LMK

rbryant
07-23-2008, 05:13 PM
Huh? so your saying, if you adjust the camber with your plates, then toe isn't affected? :confused:

Again, never used them so newbie questions, :D

Two seperate questions that were lost from the quotes sorry...

The original question was related to how the strut tower braces connect related to hood clearence. My plates wouldn't change anything on the top side of the towers. That is only affected by top mounted plates.



The camber/caster is adjusted by the plates It is possible to know how much you are adding if you mark them. This can be done with some math for a generic setup but it really should be done on an alignment rack to be accurate (different cars have different ride heights).

Toe is affected by the plates if the settings are extreme. Technically the tie rod should be adjusted whenever the camber is changed. The coilover spring height also changes both of these aswell so if that is changed it would also have to be marked/counted when adjusted for each setting.

One big advantage of the plates is that it is possible to have a few different setups if you mark the plates and count turns on the tie rod ends. That way you can setup your car for street/strip/autocross without going to the alignment rack. That wouldn't very easy if it is even possible to do by sliding the knuckle in the strut slot (the factory way of adjusting camber).

-Rich

rbryant
07-23-2008, 05:17 PM
Looks like there is interest. I will get some quotes in the next couple of weeks.

Unless I can make a common mounting plate for the lbody and others I will also need to know who wants lbody plates and who wants K based plates. I will keep the centers the same (the expensive part) but will probably need different base plates unless it doesn't compramise the design. (no overlapping slots, no thin points, etc).

-Rich

minigts
07-23-2008, 05:30 PM
I'd be interested to see how much they are and the specs on them. I got mine from GC for a VW, but they were upper mount and I had to cut the rounded "hat" on my strut towers (L-body). Other than the hat needing to be removed, they fit fine and can adjust camber and caster quite well.

And t3rse had them welded in. http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/camber_plate_paint_prep%20001.jpg

I can speak from experience, that strut tower needs some reinforcement, big time. I'm just waiting for the day when the strut rips the sheet metal from the car and shoots the strut through my hood. Every bump I come across and ones I DON'T, I hear this popping sound from the metal flexing.

EDITED: I would be interested in having some lower plates made up just for the reinforcement factor. I have been looking to get some plates made up that fit the inner strut tower to stiffen things up.

turbovanmanČ
07-23-2008, 05:56 PM
Ok, thats what I thought on the adjustments, :thumb:

Well Vans use K cars upper strut mounts, price and time frame, I am in, :nod:

rbryant
07-23-2008, 06:13 PM
I'd be interested to see how much they are and the specs on them. I got mine from GC for a VW, but they were upper mount and I had to cut the rounded "hat" on my strut towers (L-body). Other than the hat needing to be removed, they fit fine and can adjust camber and caster quite well.

And t3rse had them welded in. http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/camber_plate_paint_prep%20001.jpg



That is an interesting way to do it with stock springs and hats...




I can speak from experience, that strut tower needs some reinforcement, big time. I'm just waiting for the day when the strut rips the sheet metal from the car and shoots the strut through my hood. Every bump I come across and ones I DON'T, I hear this popping sound from the metal flexing.

EDITED: I would be interested in having some lower plates made up just for the reinforcement factor. I have been looking to get some plates made up that fit the inner strut tower to stiffen things up.

I had my towers seam welded to the frame rails to try and strengthen things up. Mine actually had the spot welds start to fail before I did this.

As for the strength these will bolt on but you can add the extra two bolt holes if desired. The fact that there is a plate with 4 holes should be better than the sheet metal with 2 holes on the hat its self.

-Rich

rbryant
07-28-2008, 01:11 PM
I have a prototype on the cut list at the waterjet shop.

The bearings and hardware are on order aswell so hopefully by the end of the week or early next I will have a prototype after the waterjet piece gets machined for the bearing.

-Rich

WickedShelby88
08-06-2008, 12:37 PM
Did you already find a good place for spherical bearings? We use those where I work for these bus door openers we used to make.

rbryant
08-06-2008, 01:47 PM
Did you already find a good place for spherical bearings? We use those where I work for these bus door openers we used to make.

I ordered a couple pairs of them already. They aren't hard to find actually. Aurora bearing makes some nice ones and helped me out with some questions so I will probably order some of theirs when I need a full production run.

I just oversized them a little from what a lot of places use in order to allow them to take more abuse. I wanted them to be able to take 5000-6000lbs of axial force since they will support the weight of the car in my design in order to keep the cost and complexity down.

Even if they fail over time both sides can be replaced for $50 or less every few years. This cuts the overall design cost in half and gives more flexibility in the selection of spring hats so I think it is the way to go rather than getting overly complex with a slip joint and extra thrust bearing like the ground control design.

-Rich

johnl
08-06-2008, 04:06 PM
I understand that the gen 2 neon struts fit in an L body, except for the hats/bolt holes, could be wrong though, so, the market might be bigger if you can make them adaptable, or if they can be adapted, to gen 2 neon struts. Then folks could buy new Konis that would fit into their L bodies' adjustable strut towers.

rbryant
08-06-2008, 04:56 PM
I understand that the gen 2 neon struts fit in an L body, except for the hats/bolt holes, could be wrong though, so, the market might be bigger if you can make them adaptable, or if they can be adapted, to gen 2 neon struts. Then folks could buy new Konis that would fit into their L bodies' adjustable strut towers.

I would plan on making a bushing so that they could use neon struts if desired. I currently have daytona struts on my GLHS so that is the setup I will use on my car. :) It just means that I need to have 3 different busings to make everyone happy. I expect to also make them for the daytona anyway so the neon struts would be the only "extra" bushing to make all options possible.

Note that 1G neon struts are a better fit since they are made to attach to a Daytona sized knuckle (wider than an lbody) where the 2G Neon struts use an even wider knuckle. In order to stay with the correct ball joint geometries I think we would want to stay with either lbody or daytona style knuckles (even though Neon units might be ok if we did some more research and measuring)

Interestingly while the neon spring hats will work on an lbody the camber plates from a neon wont...

Why you ask? It is because the Neon has its front and back strut bolts perpendicular to the axles where the back bolt on the lbody is actually set 1/4" inward. If you use a Neon camber plate (I have a set) it would put them at an angle on an lbody and then you are adjusting both camber and caster at the same time when you slide them since it is at an angle relative to the wheels...

-Rich

johnl
08-06-2008, 08:43 PM
Good stuff; you are way ahead on this one. Let me know and I'm there.

WickedShelby88
08-07-2008, 01:37 AM
You the man Rich!

Aries_Turbo
08-08-2008, 10:44 PM
i thought DodgeZ's thread about 2g neon struts showed that 2g neon knuckles were darn near identical to l body minus brake mounting points. so you could just take 2g neon struts and knuckles and direct bolt them into an l body. probably would work on a k based car too with different height mounts.

Brian

Vigo
08-13-2008, 02:52 PM
Exactly. Well another benefit is that you can run stock camber with really wide wheels and not worry about torque steer because your steering axis (or 'Dave Point') can be at the center of the contact patch.

:nod::thumb:

unless im mistaken though if you have to use coilovers to run this setup, the increased diameter of the spring collar extending down below the stock perch compared to the bare strut housing will eat up the same clearance you may get from leaning the strut inward. that is just my mental picture and i would like someone with coilovers to chime in and tell me if im right or not.



probably would work on a k based car too with different height mounts.


well on an l-body you just have to knock out one of the studs and the remaining two bolt up.. the k-cars have a totally different pattern and the hole in the center of the strut tower is not large enough to accept either the l-body or neon struts without being seriously enlarged. all said, something i am willing to do :thumb:


also, if you have access to a lathe or a lot of patience with a grinder you can turn down the strut shaft below the threads on a neon based strut so that it will go far enough through a k-car strut top thingy to bolt up.. upper spring perch wont be an exact fit but it is yet another option for using neon struts (non coilover) in a k-car.

doesnt help with camber or castor at all though, and that is what a lot of people want.. i like this product idea..



I can speak from experience, that strut tower needs some reinforcement, big time. I'm just waiting for the day when the strut rips the sheet metal from the car and shoots the strut through my hood. Every bump I come across and ones I DON'T, I hear this popping sound from the metal flexing.

i have seen that happen to an omni that went through a ditch.. it looked abandoned and i was all for trying to pick it up til i got around to the front and saw that..

turbovanmanČ
08-13-2008, 03:11 PM
Any idea on price? I really need to start saving, :o

rbryant
08-13-2008, 04:08 PM
:nod::thumb:

unless im mistaken though if you have to use coilovers to run this setup, the increased diameter of the spring collar extending down below the stock perch compared to the bare strut housing will eat up the same clearance you may get from leaning the strut inward. that is just my mental picture and i would like someone with coilovers to chime in and tell me if im right or not.



Then don't put the collar down that low. :)

I cut the spring perch off just above the weld and then put a ground control perch pad above that. So my coilovers don't have that issue at all.

I have seen some people use ebay kits that are actually supported by a perch just above the knuckle and in that case your concern is valid. Overall that isn't how it should be done though.

-Rich

rbryant
08-13-2008, 04:28 PM
Any idea on price? I really need to start saving, :o

Ahh yes the ultimate question...

I am shooting for $250 or less per set (both front pates) so that more people can afford them. That isn't bad considering that most camber plates that I have priced are ~$400. per set.

I will use a similar pricing calculation to what I do on the other waterjet stuff (cam adapters, etc). I hope to have it even cheaper but I don't have the prototype yet because the waterjet guy is pretty busy right now. He gives better prices if he knows I have been waiting a while so it is good for all of us to be patient.

They also require some extra machining for the bearing seat so I have to talk to him about that once I have the blanks. I don't have a mill so I can't do all of the extra machining myself home like I did for the cam adapters. :(

I still don't compete very well with big companies for prioirty in the cut line but hope to get something this week.

-Rich

turbovanmanČ
08-13-2008, 05:04 PM
Not a bad price at all, :nod:

Vigo
08-14-2008, 01:21 PM
I cut the spring perch off just above the weld and then put a ground control perch pad above that. So my coilovers don't have that issue at all.

I have seen some people use ebay kits that are actually supported by a perch just above the knuckle and in that case your concern is valid. Overall that isn't how it should be done though.


ahh, good to know!

Helps me because i was thinking about converting to 2g neon struts+coilovers on my dynasty, but if i would lose even a few millimeters of clearance between tire and strut i couldnt do it. Clearance there with my 245/40r17s is VERY tight. Cant space wheels outward either, or they'd just hit the fender lip against the tread of the tire on compression.

so here's a thought. if you make a plate that will work with a 2g neon strut and the k-car strut tower, i could get any badass adjustable strut i wanted, any coilover spring rate i wanted, get my camber curve back at a lower ride height and still run my huge 245s... :love::love:

rbryant
08-14-2008, 02:07 PM
ahh, good to know!

Helps me because i was thinking about converting to 2g neon struts+coilovers on my dynasty, but if i would lose even a few millimeters of clearance between tire and strut i couldnt do it. Clearance there with my 245/40r17s is VERY tight. Cant space wheels outward either, or they'd just hit the fender lip against the tread of the tire on compression.

so here's a thought. if you make a plate that will work with a 2g neon strut and the k-car strut tower, i could get any badass adjustable strut i wanted, any coilover spring rate i wanted, get my camber curve back at a lower ride height and still run my huge 245s... :love::love:

Overall the coilovers should give you MORE wheel clearence since the large spring perch is removed. :)

The strut tower shouldn't be a big deal. I just need to go to the junkyard and take some measurements and get a spring hat to mock it up against. The real difference is just the way the strut shaft connects into the adjuster. I am using an oversized bearing so I will just make 2-3 different types of bushings that go into the adjuster so people can use whatever strut they like.

I also need to take some measurements on the strut shafts to make the bushings but the adjuster is currently the top priority!

I will make it work. :) It should open up a lot more strut options as you pointed out which will be reall valuable because the Kcar konis are NS1 now.

-Rich

turbovanmanČ
08-14-2008, 02:16 PM
Overall the coilovers should give you MORE wheel clearence since the large spring perch is removed. :)
-Rich

Not true, it depends on where the coil spring perch is. I had a set of coilovers on the van, and the spring perch collar was aprox half way down the tire so without spacers, it wouldn't clear so I had to wind the collar up to clear. To fix, I would have had to run a shorter spring.

rbryant
08-14-2008, 02:56 PM
Not true, it depends on where the coil spring perch is. I had a set of coilovers on the van, and the spring perch collar was aprox half way down the tire so without spacers, it wouldn't clear so I had to wind the collar up to clear. To fix, I would have had to run a shorter spring.


I should have clarified:

Assuming that the collar starts in the same position as the stock spring perch it is true.

On my lbody I have 8" springs with the collar starting in the stock locatoin to get near stock ride height (with daytona struts). I don't see a reason to lower the perch from stock. Springs are only $50-75 each from Eibach the last time I checked and the stock perch is easy to modify to hold a collar. :)

-Rich

Frank
08-14-2008, 03:00 PM
I think Vigo was concerned about the perch which is now gone because of his tire height.

Aries_Turbo
08-14-2008, 03:52 PM
didnt 1g neon konis go the way of the dodo too?

Brian

rbryant
08-14-2008, 05:36 PM
didnt 1g neon konis go the way of the dodo too?

Brian

Shox.com still lists the koni sports. They are better than the kcar struts which were from the special line.

There are tokico's, B&G, and a number of others available for the 1G neon.

I will do some more research on the topic but I should be able to support pretty much any of the options...

-Rich

Aries_Turbo
08-15-2008, 11:00 AM
cool :)

Vigo
08-15-2008, 12:31 PM
my clearance issue is between the tire and the strut body.. anybody running tires less than like 25.5" outside diameter should be ok with the k-car spring perch location.. but i havent really looked to see if the neon struts perch location will be a problem for those running tall tires. honestly, i like a shorter tire on these cars but then you have to lower it more to get a good wheelgap and sticking with stock struts makes that a pretty bumpy, uncontrolled ride. my aries actually bottoms out the struts in the front with 23" tires and a lot of lowering, which is why anything that would allow me to use shorter neon struts would dramatically improve its ride and handling.

rbryant
09-25-2008, 05:42 PM
It looks like some progress is finally being made on these.

Would people be willing to put a $50 deposit on these so I know how many to make and how serious people are?

Also, if someone happens to have the inside diameter measurement of the center strut tower hole on a daytona that would help. I the dimensions all out but forgot that meausurement and my dimensions depend on it... If not I will get it from the junkyard over the weekend.

Thanks,

Rich

2.216VTurbo
09-25-2008, 07:20 PM
I'll pay in full if one of the first sets has my name on it... PM me your Paypal addy.

minigts
09-25-2008, 07:26 PM
Andy Stachar in Memphis was asking me about my camber plates, but this looks like a better solution for those who don't want to modify the strut towers. I'll send him a PM and mention this; maybe he'll be interested.

crazymadbastard
09-25-2008, 07:53 PM
Before commiting, what do you figure it would cost? I want one for a 92 Lebaron gtc convertible, the hole at the top of the strut tower is 2.24 inches.

rbryant
09-25-2008, 08:08 PM
Before commiting, what do you figure it would cost? I want one for a 92 Lebaron gtc convertible, the hole at the top of the strut tower is 2.24 inches.

Thanks for the measurement!

I will get a full cost next week and won't take deposits before then so that everyone knows exactly what the details are.

I don't know what the full setup fees for the machine work will be yet.

The main reason for the deposit is so I make the right number of them. I have have a bunch of cam adapters laying around because I made more than what people bought and I don't want to do that again.

-Rich

zin
09-26-2008, 12:33 AM
I have have a bunch of cam adapters laying around because I made more than what people bought and I don't want to do that again.

-Rich

?Que

Mike

rbryant
09-26-2008, 02:33 AM
?Que

Mike

Too much inventory is bad especially when sales don't cover the cost of the production run. :) That I don't want to repeat.

-Rich

Clay
09-26-2008, 11:16 AM
I would be interested. These will fit l-bodies correct?

badandy
09-26-2008, 12:51 PM
P-Body?

rbryant
09-26-2008, 04:22 PM
Originally they were going to be for lbodys but I can do Kbased plates aswell since most of the work is in the center adjuster rather than the mounting plate.

The K based cars have such a small center hole that it might require using a hole saw to cut them out to someting bigger like say 4" in order to adjust them easily from the top side.

I should get the snap rings in and get them to the machinist early next week then I will have prices.

It has been suggested that this be a group buy where the first 10 orders or so get a discount. I will work to get the plates made so that people can get either the Lbody or Kbased plates as part of the buy. In order to make the group buy worth it I will work the pricing so it is $50 or so cheaper on the group buy than the production prices in order to get the ball rolling. The first run will be to cover the costs and profits will come after that.

Once I have the prices I will setup a group buy list.

Sorry for the delay on this it is amazing how long things take to get done when working with a machinist....

Thanks!

-Rich

zin
09-26-2008, 04:29 PM
Too much inventory is bad especially when sales don't cover the cost of the production run. :) That I don't want to repeat.

-Rich

That's what I get for trying to be cute... I was actually wondering what these "overstock" parts were intended for.

Mike

rbryant
09-26-2008, 04:53 PM
That's what I get for trying to be cute... I was actually wondering what these "overstock" parts were intended for.

Mike

They are the adapters for running a 2.2/2.5 distributor off from the camshaft of a 2.0/2.4 head. I just reduced the prices on them there is a thread for them and also you can follow the link in my sig if you are interested.

Sorry I didn't realize how unclear I was my fault! :)

-Rich

zin
09-26-2008, 09:57 PM
They are the adapters for running a 2.2/2.5 distributor off from the camshaft of a 2.0/2.4 head. I just reduced the prices on them there is a thread for them and also you can follow the link in my sig if you are interested.

Sorry I didn't realize how unclear I was my fault! :)

-Rich

After I posted, I followed the link in your sig, now I think I'm going to buy one of those! Price is reasonable, and looks to be a nicely designed piece.

Mike

PS Guess that's a free plug for those "over-stock" pieces! :D

Vigo
10-06-2008, 11:47 AM
i just put my first 1g neon/kcar hybrid strut in my aries and it is TOO short. it slightly tucks 205/50r15s which on a k-car means you're lowered like 5 inches from stock. youd either need to run a longer or stiffer spring to raise it up and have less rebound travel, or, what i think is a better option all around, use a longer 2g strut and matching spring for the vast majority of applications.

This is only indirectly related, really, but it goes to show that if you stick a stock 1g neon strut/spring in a k-car it will lower it too much. If your plates are made so that 1g neon struts could be used, people would either have to find a way to space the strut/plate down more from the strut tower or run coilovers and crank the height, leaving them little rebound travel.

on to 2g strut experiments!

Clay
10-06-2008, 12:19 PM
Vigo - did you check the posts on boostedmopar.com on the 1G vs. 2G neon struts on an L-body? Im sure there would be lots of applicable info to what your doing.

rbryant
10-06-2008, 04:03 PM
i just put my first 1g neon/kcar hybrid strut in my aries and it is TOO short. it slightly tucks 205/50r15s which on a k-car means you're lowered like 5 inches from stock. youd either need to run a longer or stiffer spring to raise it up and have less rebound travel, or, what i think is a better option all around, use a longer 2g strut and matching spring for the vast majority of applications.

This is only indirectly related, really, but it goes to show that if you stick a stock 1g neon strut/spring in a k-car it will lower it too much. If your plates are made so that 1g neon struts could be used, people would either have to find a way to space the strut/plate down more from the strut tower or run coilovers and crank the height, leaving them little rebound travel.

on to 2g strut experiments!

Here are some measurements that I have from www.napaonline.com:



Lbody Front:

Body Length: 13.625''
Compressed Length: 13.875''
Extended length: 20.000''
Travel Length: 6.125''


Daytona Front:

Body Length: 14.125''
Compressed Length: 11.625''
Extended length: 17.625''
Travel Length: 6.000''

1G Neon Front:

Body Length: 12.500''
Compressed Length: 10.125''
Extended length: 15.500''
Travel Length: 5.375''


2G Neon Front:

Body Length:13.750"
Compressed Length:12.000"
Extended length:18.000"
Travel Length:6.000"


So the 2G neon will work great but it does have a wider spindle connection so we might need to use 2G Neon spindles or spacers (I don't care for spacers so probably full SRT4 spindles and hubs are the way to go).

-Rich


-

Clay
10-06-2008, 04:13 PM
All of that info has been covered on boostedmopar.com

I suggest before doing any more research, just go look there where its been done for you. ;)

rbryant
10-06-2008, 06:26 PM
All of that info has been covered on boostedmopar.com

I suggest before doing any more research, just go look there where its been done for you. ;)

This is still a little unique because we are looking at a Kcar using Neon struts and a custom camber plate/coilover.



BTW I dropped off all of the bearings, etc but my machinist tore his rotator cuff so he is hard to work with at the moment due to no fault of his own.

I will keep working with the help there to get it done but it is a little harder than working with the main guy.

-Rich

crazymadbastard
10-06-2008, 10:35 PM
BTW I dropped off all of the bearings, etc but my machinist tore his rotator cuff so he is hard to work with at the moment due to no fault of his own.

I will keep working with the help there to get it done but it is a little harder than working with the main guy.

-Rich

meh, he did not rip both right? He still got a good arm- besides a lttle cortizon and all is good!

TurbododgePirate
10-08-2008, 04:56 PM
I'm interested.

rbryant
10-08-2008, 06:52 PM
I have the initial version of the daytona mounting plate done so it is mostly up to the machinist now. The last remaining design component is the bushings where the strut top goes into the spherical bearing for each strut option. After that it is just a matter of making them and test fitting.

Does anyone happen to have the ID of the strut tower top on a kcar? I have a stock strut hat but I am not sure how much bigger my camber plate can be and still fit.

In other words how much larger could the stock K platform strut hat be and still fit into the tower?

Thanks,

Rich

Vigo
10-09-2008, 10:06 PM
the reason i posted up this info is because on a k-car the strut tower mountup is very different from an l-body. you cant just knock out one stud and bolt the sucker in, or everyone woulda done it by now. the existing bolt pattern is completely different and the center hole would have to be enlarged a lot as well and that is NOT an easy area to cut/grind. Rich's plate pretty much opens up 2g neon struts for k-car users which is a HUGE step forward for the community. my info was just offered for what little its worth.




Does anyone happen to have the ID of the strut tower top on a kcar

i can probly get that on saturday.

rbryant
10-10-2008, 12:54 AM
Here is a picture of the Kbased Plate prototype drawing.

10678

And here is the updated lbody one.

10679

I decided not to do a common plate because the overlaps weren't very clean especially on the top slot. These are both driver side views of the plates (camber plates move the top of the strut shaft in from stock just like the ground control or other kits do.).


Don't worry this is just the waterjet phase the adjuster gets machined for a bearing and a bushing is used to connect to the strut/spring hat. :)

-Rich



-

TurbododgePirate
10-10-2008, 11:15 AM
Very nice. My L body would love to have one of those.

zin
10-13-2008, 06:14 PM
Just to be clear in my mind, these plates will work with standard struts as well as a coil over set-up, right?

Looking very good Rich!:thumb:

Mike

rbryant
10-13-2008, 06:36 PM
Just to be clear in my mind, these plates will work with standard struts as well as a coil over set-up, right?

Looking very good Rich!:thumb:

Mike

They will require coilovers.

Designing a hat for a standard spring would take a lot more work. So these will only work with a coilover spring hat.

-Rich

zin
10-13-2008, 08:22 PM
They will require coilovers.

Designing a hat for a standard spring would take a lot more work. So these will only work with a coilover spring hat.

-Rich

Ok, glad I asked!

Mike

badandy
10-14-2008, 12:14 PM
I'm glad it's for coilovers:clap: This whole "no more Koni's for us" makes me nervous if I ever want to build another car down the road. After I scoop up these for the "T" I guess the next question would be can we gather a list of coilovers that would fit the application? Maybe it's somewhere in this thread or another one that I have not read yet? Time to do a search...

Please let me know when these are available:D

rbryant
10-14-2008, 12:33 PM
I'm glad it's for coilovers:clap: This whole "no more Koni's for us" makes me nervous if I ever want to build another car down the road. After I scoop up these for the "T" I guess the next question would be can we gather a list of coilovers that would fit the application? Maybe it's somewhere in this thread or another one that I have not read yet? Time to do a search...

Please let me know when these are available:D

I will make them so that they will work with a variety of coilover spring/hats as long as they have a nice flat top that fits tightly around the strut shaft. I currently have some ground control coilver springs/hats so that will be my baseline.

Once I have the prototype I will also do some math on the lengths and spring heights to see which will work on the lbodys and k platforms.

-Rich

2.216VTurbo
10-14-2008, 12:37 PM
The Rampage has fresh new coilovers and springs, a new K frame, a new swaybar, ball joints, bushings etc... I'd love to put all that stuff with the plates Rich:eyebrows: Paypal is ready for 2 sets...

rbryant
10-14-2008, 12:40 PM
The Rampage has fresh new coilovers and springs, a new K frame, a new swaybar, ball joints, bushings etc... I'd love to put all that stuff with the plates Rich:eyebrows: Paypal is ready for 2 sets...

Ok so they are working on the fixture to put the spherical bearing and snap ring into the center adjuster.

Once they have that I will bring them some different struts so we can make bushings for all of them. That way from my end the only difference in the setup for different struts is a change in bushings to adapt the stut into the center adjuster.

The head guy is going in for surgery friday apparently he also ripped a bicep ligament when he tore the rotator cuff... Ouch... He has the junior machinist all setup for the project though and he is a smart kid so we should be able to get it done.

-Rich

crazymadbastard
10-14-2008, 01:22 PM
I am waiting patiently here too. I got some qa1 coils and collar setup on a gr2 strut for now waiting for this. I can't wait to get rid of the lousy stock rubber mounts that go "oink oink!".

TurbododgePirate
10-17-2008, 08:59 AM
Is there a set price yet?

rbryant
10-17-2008, 04:59 PM
Is there a set price yet?

I hope to have an update early next week.

-Rich

crazymadbastard
10-22-2008, 05:17 PM
it is mid-next week :p

rbryant
10-22-2008, 06:17 PM
it is mid-next week :p

Yes it is...

The guy that sets the price and makes things happen is still out with a medical issue. I haven't been able to make any progress on it.

Sorry my hands are pretty tied on this one until I can get them to make progress or I start with a new machinist. The advantage of this guy is that he is local, doesn't charge a setup fee and he really knows his stuff and he is very helpful.

Sorry I will call again tomorrow and try to get a hold of him.

-Rich

johnl
10-22-2008, 09:50 PM
Hey Rich - I'm still in, so don't have doubts. PM or email me in case I miss the thread.

badandy
10-23-2008, 01:25 PM
Waiting patiently...

Vigo
12-01-2008, 01:59 PM
still curious on a final price too.:D

rbryant
12-02-2008, 06:40 PM
still curious on a final price too.:D

Yea I suck...

I can't get things finalized with the machinist. I will have to look for another guy soon if he doesn't get back to me this week.

-Rich

johnl
12-03-2008, 12:04 AM
You do NOT suck. You are a TM hero. Cool by me.

black86glhs
12-03-2008, 02:20 AM
Not your fault Rich.

rbryant
12-03-2008, 03:10 AM
Not your fault Rich.

Sure it is I said it would be done long ago and it isn't. That is my fault. :)

I am breaking my own rules here. At work I always say that you can't slip schedule by more than 1/2 of the remaining time on your commitment... Afterall you should know by the time you are supposed to be half done that you aren't going to make it...


-Rich

black86glhs
12-03-2008, 03:15 AM
Well, after being in business myself before, I do know that some times you can't plan for stuff like this. I meant you didn't just become a lazy SOB and not do your part. Thats all.

rbryant
12-03-2008, 12:53 PM
Well, after being in business myself before, I do know that some times you can't plan for stuff like this. I meant you didn't just become a lazy SOB and not do your part. Thats all.

Yea i understood. I was just giving myself some hell for everyone.

I am not one for excuses it is all about results.

It is hard sometimes when other people are involved though. :)

-Rich

zin
12-03-2008, 06:29 PM
It is hard sometimes when other people are involved though. :)

-Rich

No doubt! And when you are not a "big" customer or have the potential for a lot of repeat biz, you sometimes get put on "ignore".:(

Mike

rbryant
12-09-2008, 04:51 PM
I talked to the boss today.

Their phones are still a little messed up and I can hear the poping and clicking. Apparently there is a sewer line break or something that took out the neighborhood. He had problems off and on and now they have finally figured out what it is...

For the real update he said he had what he needs from me and just needs to cut things. It is giong on the cut list so it should be out in a couple of days. After that I can tweak them and get the production pieces going and will also have the full pricing info.

Lets hope it happens this time.

Thanks to everyone for their patience!

-Rich

turbovanmanČ
12-09-2008, 05:10 PM
Thanks for the update and remember, its not your fault. We are just little guys trying to make a few niche items and make a few bucks. Don't be so hard on yourself, :nod:

Vigo
12-14-2008, 07:53 PM
if it happens at all in the next three months it'll be soon enough for my 'purposes' :thumb:

crazymadbastard
12-15-2008, 04:01 PM
thanks for the update!

rbryant
01-09-2009, 02:15 PM
The machinist made a mistake cut the first prototype to the exact spherical bearing hole size rather than smaller so that it could be milled out... :(

He is going to recut it over the next couple of days.

I dropped him off a neon strut so that he can make them work with the shorter neon threads on the top.

Can someone take a look and see what is the thread size and pitch for the lbody strut and how long the machined portion is? (mine are daytona struts and the junkyard didn't have an lbody last time I went to get some mock up pieces...)

I believe the neon is the same but I am not sure. I need to make some T bushings to connect to the bearing and I want to have them such that daytona, lbody, or neon struts can be used.

-Rich

rbryant
01-09-2009, 02:18 PM
Should I hard anodize the plates and adjusters or not?

It would probably add $20 a set and delay things a little....

I am making them extra thick to make sure they are durable compared to the ground control units so it probably isn't really necessary unless people want it.

It will be an all or nothing thing rather than an individual preference due to the minimum lot sizes from the anodizing shop.

The prototype will of course not be anodized.

Thanks,

Rich

turbovanmanČ
01-09-2009, 02:20 PM
I would personally have them anodized, some of us drive thru the winter, :o

rbryant
01-09-2009, 02:25 PM
I would personally have them anodized, some of us drive thru the winter, :o

Winter? What's that?

(From the guy that grew up in Syracuse and moved to Phoenix)

That is a good point. I will probably just do them all in black or something.

I need to get a prototype done and then I can make a batch and have them all anodized once the design is finalized.

-Rich

turbovanmanČ
01-09-2009, 03:33 PM
Winter? What's that?

(From the guy that grew up in Syracuse and moved to Phoenix)

That is a good point. I will probably just do them all in black or something.

I need to get a prototype done and then I can make a batch and have them all anodized once the design is finalized.

-Rich

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! :mad:

zin
01-09-2009, 05:30 PM
Should I hard anodize the plates and adjusters or not?

Rich

+1 :thumb: Anodizing is a must in my opinion on any Al suspension piece. Makes them look good and stay looking good, not to mention lasting 2X as long!

Mike

rbryant
03-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Ok I am working on changing shops this week. The original shop isn't cutting it and I think they are going to go under.

Not really a big surprise given their lack of turnaround and communication...

Waterjet is no problem I just need to work on the machining for the bearing.

-Rich

crazymadbastard
03-23-2009, 12:10 PM
. The original shop isn't cutting it

-Rich


um yeah!
thanks for continuing on the quest.

Reaper1
03-24-2009, 02:10 PM
I'm interested to see how these turn out! They look nice for sure. :thumb:

turboz523
04-13-2009, 04:13 PM
any new updates on these? After last weeks autocross I'm definitely interested in some camber plates.

rbryant
04-14-2009, 06:11 PM
Hopefully next week. They are waterjet cut but waiting for the mill work for the spherical bearings. I then just need to make some threaded T spacers for each Strut Type so they work properly with the spherical bearings..

I am working on Lbody parts first but the G/J/K/P/H stuff will use the same center piece so it should be easy to make the mounting plates once the L body stuff is done.

-Rich

johnl
04-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Lurking here. Can't wait for a proper way to adjust my struts!

rbryant
04-22-2009, 04:18 PM
The machine shop got the wrong snap ring cutter so they have to return and reorder it.

Instead of getting a 7/16 ring cutter they sent some odd cutter that was PN 4375 instead of .4375 and it wasn't quite right to say the least!

We are looking at next week for the prototype now. :(

-Rich

ForzaV12
04-22-2009, 06:28 PM
Rich, count me in for an L-body set or two.

rbryant
04-30-2009, 08:56 PM
I stopped by the shop today and they have prototypes cut.

We need to do some clearance and chamfer work on the adjusters so that they don't bind up and then make some spacers but things are looking good!

The other change is that the adjuster will be 100% milled rather than waterjet cut then milled in order to skip a tool change.

I have some phone camera pictures that I will post later tonight or tomorrow.

I hope to have things finalized this week because I am on vacation for a couple of weeks starting mid next week. I want to have him cutting the production parts during that time.

-Rich

rbryant
05-01-2009, 03:03 AM
These pictures are from my phone so hopefully they are clear enough.

Adjuster:

Bottom Side, the Spherical Bearing is held in with a snap ring.
This is also where the spring hat (or a bushing on top of it) will contact the bearing.
14244


The hole still needs to be enlarged and chamfered to allow the strut shaft to pivot in it without the nut hitting the adjuster.
14245


Plate with Adjuster:

This is an lbody plate and the left and right holes can be used optionally. I felt that hard core guys would want them and guys that don't like modifying numbered cars could just use the top and bottom holes like stock.

We may enlarge the strut nut clearance hole a little.

14246


In comparison:

Ground Control and some of the others machine the adjuster piece such that the bearing sits at the same level as the top plate. I am not going to do that mainly because I using a much larger spherical bearing to better handle the weight of the car and there just isn't room. (pictures stolen from SCC's project Neon writeup)

14248

They take an alternate and more expensive approach of using a roller bearing and slip joint between the adjuster and spring hat to hold the weight and a small spherical bearing that only handles the pivot. If I tried to duplicate that setup I would probably get sued anyway so I won't go there.
14247

Rather than get cute I just used a bigger Teflon lined bearing with a higher load capacity (over 6000lbs axial load rating)... :) Many race shops make plates for heavier cars than ours using smaller bearings than this so I am confident they will hold up very well.

If the bearings ever do go bad (after very extended use) they can be changed out for $30 or so per side.

The only real disadvantage of the larger bearing with this setup is that it requires a bushing.

It could be argued that I lose an inch of strut travel by placing the bearing below the top plate but the plate/adjuster is still lower profile than stock and we have a decent amount of travel so I am not going to worry about it.


-Rich

Reaper1
05-01-2009, 03:45 AM
Oof...loosing an inch of strut travel would KILL my car! There's NO WAY I could do that and keep it streetable, even with stiffer springs.

I'd actually like to mount them ABOVE the strut tower to GAIN travel, but I don't know if there's enough clearance between the hood and where that would end up.

I've thought about sectioning the strut towers and adding material to raise the tops...

rbryant
05-01-2009, 11:49 AM
Oof...loosing an inch of strut travel would KILL my car! There's NO WAY I could do that and keep it streetable, even with stiffer springs.

I'd actually like to mount them ABOVE the strut tower to GAIN travel, but I don't know if there's enough clearance between the hood and where that would end up.

I've thought about sectioning the strut towers and adding material to raise the tops...

You aren't losing an inch from the stock setup only from what might be possible if the bearing was even or above the plate. The plates are still close to the stock thickness. It is probably only .5" from the best that could be done anyway rather than a full inch as I originally stated. They should end up with more travel than a stock strut mount.

If you cut things down you could probably put these on the top side of the tower and get it back if you wanted to.

How much do you have it lowered? If your control arms are pointing upward then you probably went too far anyway.

-Rich

johnl
05-01-2009, 03:25 PM
Beautiful stuff Rich. Lots of good engineering thought.

rbryant
05-01-2009, 03:50 PM
Beautiful stuff Rich. Lots of good engineering thought.

Thanks for the patience.

Eventually these will get done and they will be a nice product.

-Rich

Vigo
05-01-2009, 07:19 PM
Oh man, bolt in 2g neon adjustables + camber plates for the same price as old konis, maybe even USED old Konis? We are truly getting somewhere.

Reaper1
05-01-2009, 07:47 PM
You aren't losing an inch from the stock setup only from what might be possible if the bearing was even or above the plate. The plates are still close to the stock thickness. It is probably only .5" from the best that could be done anyway rather than a full inch as I originally stated. They should end up with more travel than a stock strut mount.

If you cut things down you could probably put these on the top side of the tower and get it back if you wanted to.

How much do you have it lowered? If your control arms are pointing upward then you probably went too far anyway.

-Rich


My control arms USED to be angled up, but now they are almost parallel with the ground. I replaced the entire front suspension to '91-up stuff and it solved a LOT of issues. It created some too, but nothing horrible.

I have done about 2/3 of the geomtrical analysis I want to with the front suspension, but I need to crunch numbers still. Honestly it isn't bad and the car behaves VER nice on track. It just needs stiffer springs, which means coil-overs. All in due time.

I've done a pretty detailed write up on what I've found so far in a couple other threads...

How about a static virtual swing arm that is 240'(yes, FEET) long!!! To say camber is stable in compression and rebound is an understatement. I haven't gotten to roll yet. :(

rbryant
05-01-2009, 08:28 PM
Oh man, bolt in 2g neon adjustables + camber plates for the same price as old konis, maybe even USED old Konis? We are truly getting somewhere.

Either 1G or 2G should work out fine.

They are only for coilovers and the main difference between the 1G and 2G Neon struts is the length of the strut travel.

If using a stiff spring and lowering a bit the 1G strut probably has enough travel. I think my car only has like 2-3 inches of travel anyway. I will do some comparison pictures once the plates are done.

Plus the 1G strut bolts directly to the K based knuckles without spacers.

The annoying thing about both the 1G and 2G struts is that they have a really short threaded area. That means I need to have a threaded bushing made for those in order to use the camber plates where I don't need to for the lbody and daytona struts.

-Rich

Vigo
05-02-2009, 02:13 PM
Well, myself being a very cheap person with more time than sense:

I used a bench grinder and a lot of time to turn down the strut shaft past the threads so that the shank/threads are long enough to go into a stock k-car upper mount. It is tedious and inexact but the net result is that anyone with a bench grinder or any other way of doing the same procedure can make a neon strut with conventional neon spring bolt right into the stock k-car upper mount, since the neon spring and k-car upper perch are roughly compatible.

I hadnt exactly spelled that out on the forums before, but i had been running 1g neon strut in the front of my aries for a while until recently switching to konis.

The stock 1g neon strut with stock 1g neon springs are ENTIRELY too short to use in a k-car UNLESS your camber plate setup effectively lowers the strut compared to a stock mounting. The control arm angles are utterly terrible and with stock neon spring rates (equivalent to our shelby springs) it will literally bottom out the k-frame and the pans on hard compression.

With coilovers (which anyone using your product would have) you could crank up the ride height on 1g neon struts to a more acceptable ride height, but that would leave you with little to no rebound travel, which would make potholes horrible and would completely unload the inside tire on a hard turn.

I personally believe based on my experience that the 2g strut is far more feasible *FOR K-BASED CARS* because it is longer, and because brand new adjustables are readily available.

All this info is in the context of using 1g neon struts on a k-based car ONLY. I am not speaking doom for l-body users.

1g struts will work fine in l-bodies, im sure.


I believe that the parts you're developing here are awesome and nothing ive said is intended to detract from that. Im just throwing out my personal experience so that noone buys these under false pretense of possibly using a 1g strut in a k-car with normal size tires and blaming you for not saying that it wouldnt work (well).

Austrian Dodge
05-02-2009, 02:25 PM
hopefully there will be a g-body version of this, i'd be all over it ;)

rbryant
05-02-2009, 03:34 PM
Well, myself being a very cheap person with more time than sense:

I used a bench grinder and a lot of time to turn down the strut shaft past the threads so that the shank/threads are long enough to go into a stock k-car upper mount.



I agree that the Neon strut shafts could be machined and if they were done on a lathe it would be perfect. A bench grinder would also be ok. If I was doing it myself I would also do it your way.

In my experience of selling things people usually don't like to do any custom work to use a product and would rather buy a kit that is bolt on.

I am not prepared to buy the struts, have them machined and wait for orders. The inventory would be a killer so if someone wants to do it that way they would have to machine the struts themselves. I will price the threaded bushings and they might be cheaper overall than doing the machining anyway. Even the stock lbody/k struts will need a non threaded bushing so it shouldn't be that much extra cost.




The stock 1g neon strut with stock 1g neon springs are ENTIRELY too short to use in a k-car UNLESS your camber plate setup effectively lowers the strut compared to a stock mounting. The control arm angles are utterly terrible and with stock neon spring rates (equivalent to our shelby springs) it will literally bottom out the k-frame and the pans on hard compression.

With coilovers (which anyone using your product would have) you could crank up the ride height on 1g neon struts to a more acceptable ride height, but that would leave you with little to no rebound travel, which would make potholes horrible and would completely unload the inside tire on a hard turn.

I personally believe based on my experience that the 2g strut is far more feasible *FOR K-BASED CARS* because it is longer, and because brand new adjustables are readily available.

All this info is in the context of using 1g neon struts on a k-based car ONLY. I am not speaking doom for l-body users.



I can also make spacers for the 2G struts where they connect to the knuckles so that the K based knuckles are centered inside of them. If the 2G struts are really that much easier to find then that is no problem. I do agree that they are closer overall to the originals so you are right it is probably better.

I will make whatever you guys want as long as I can recover my costs and make a small amount of profit to support my own car. I just can't do something that will make me lose a lot of money on it.

I will work on the spacers once everything gets done for the hat (they will be easy to waterjet in bulk).

-Rich

rbryant
05-05-2009, 09:10 PM
Here are the close to final product pictures:

Top down view. The plate is designed to bolt to the bottom side of the strut tower so no cutting is required.
14368

The overall height of the Plate and adjuster is about 1.25" I will get some stock strut plate measurements when I get home but it can't be much lower than that.
14369

Top view of the adjuster (will be threaded to bolt to the plate)
14370

Bottom view showing the snap ring.
14371

The adjuster is now fully milled and never goes on the waterjet. The plate is fully waterjetted. Setup costs were a little higher than I thought but the variable costs per unit are still good. I need to price out hard anodizing and the final bushings but they will be reasonably priced!

I want to try and get these test fitted tonight but I am going to be out of town for 12 days starting tomorrow so I am not sure I will be able to. When I get back on the 19th I should finally be ready for the production run, set a final price and take orders!

-Rich

ikknown
05-05-2009, 10:19 PM
maybe on the finished product you can put some machined line to help adjust the alignment specs?
Im excited about this one.

rbryant
05-06-2009, 12:50 PM
maybe on the finished product you can put some machined line to help adjust the alignment specs?
Im excited about this one.

The problem is that the line would be somewhat arbitrary. Depending on the ride height of a given car the amount of adjustment would have different affects on the overall alignment.

Usually what people do is hit the plate with a center punch at a few different places while they are on the rack so that they can then adjust back to those places. I suppose I could make a few notches but it would be very imprecise.

I also need to change the plates a little. It looks like the adjustment isn't perfectly perpendicular to the car on the prototypes so it would have a slight camber and caster adjustment when you are trying to adjust just camber.

-Rich

rbryant
05-06-2009, 01:48 PM
The good camera is packed for vacation so the phone will have to do for now.

The final height difference is about 1/4" taller for the camber plate vs. stock (the top plate on the camber plate is 3/8" and the adjuster is about 7/8").

14397


On my personal setup I did still require an extra spacer on the stock piece in order to get the coilover spring hat to strut mount bearing connection to work properly with the dish in the stock mount and that won't be required on the camber plate so it is pretty much break even. This picture shows what I mean.

14398


-Rich

bgbmxer
05-08-2009, 09:18 PM
have you figured out a final price and a time these will be done im interested

2.216VTurbo
05-09-2009, 12:51 PM
I'm still in for a couple sets...

bgbmxer
05-09-2009, 01:36 PM
im guessing he is on vacation from what i gathered from his previous post. i want a set and i also want to know how hard they will be to make work with the stock struts.

rbryant
05-29-2009, 05:39 PM
I have worked on these a little this week and met with the machinist. The slots ended up a little too narrow on the top plates so after putting in the bolts they won't slide. We are fixing that problem.

I also placed them on my GLHS and decided to use an M10 bolt to connect them to the tower. The stock bolts are M8 but the hole is big enough for M10 so in the interest of overkill I enlarged them.

They will work with stock struts but you need coilover springs. This picture shows how it connect to the spring hat.

(pre-production cell phone picture again sorry)
15148

The last thing we are working on is a T bushing to go around the strut shaft and between the camber adjuster and the strut hat. That way flat top coilover hats will also work.

To answer the original question on why stock springs won't work: stock springs are big and need a very wide hat (in stock form the hat is also the strut plate that attaches to the car). Additionally with stock springs they are too big to give you any adjustment before hitting the inside of the strut tower. The 3" OD coilover springs give you lots of room for adjustment.

-Rich

rbryant
06-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Just a quick update...

Non Lbody (GJKHP, etc)

I ran through the local junkyard at lunch to check the fitment of the non lbody plates. I am going to adjust them about 1/16" from my original measurements to get the adjusters as square as possible. The non lbody cars have a very small hole in the strut tower so for full adjustment they may have to be enlarged but there will still be some adjustment possible and it is much better mount for coilovers!

I am going to keep the GJKHP plate bolts at M8 and not make them M10 like I did on the lbody. There are 3 bolts so they won't need the extra strength and I also found some small variations on the strut tower angles between body types so having some small amount of play on the holes will allow them to be adjusted to square on all body styles.

Lbody

TU is going to supply me with an lbody strut so I can finalize the bushings on the adjusters for the lbody cars. As long as Chris comes through <insert peer pressure here> I should have everything machined, anodized, and ready to ship in the next week or two.

-Rich

Reaper1
06-03-2009, 07:10 PM
The bumps in the strut towers for the non-L body cars can be easily removed using a GOOD 1/2" drive drill and using two hole saws(one guide, one cutter). :thumb:

rbryant
06-03-2009, 07:29 PM
The bumps in the strut towers for the non-L body cars can be easily removed using a GOOD 1/2" drive drill and using two hole saws(one guide, one cutter). :thumb:

I agree and That is my plan...

I was going to bolt a temporary metal strip between the two bolt holes and make the centering hole in it and then cut it down to 4.25 or 4.5". A smaller hole saw is an alternative method that I hadn't really considered. My plan was to draw an x on the strip from corner to corner in order to find the center but that requires the strip to also be accurate where your method doesn't require as much time in setting up the scrap piece.

On the lbody the hole is plenty large enough but the lip looks kind of cheesy IMO and they tend get bumped over the years and bend so they look uneven especially without the stock washer cup installed... The GHPJK cars have a much nicer looking strut tower and you can also use the plastic covers.

Lots of people won't want to cut their cars so this is really only for the hard core people... :)

-Rich

Reaper1
06-04-2009, 11:26 AM
I'd figure camber plates are only for really hard core people anyways! LOL

minigts
06-04-2009, 11:44 AM
The bumps in the strut towers for the non-L body cars can be easily removed using a GOOD 1/2" drive drill and using two hole saws(one guide, one cutter). :thumb:

I don't know what that looks like, but I "modified" my strut tower for my Ground Control plates and the metal is flexing. You can hear it popping when going slow and some when driving down the road. Granted, it sounds like the two pieces of sheet metal are moving ever so slightly, but this has been a problem since I put the plates on. It doesn't affect the handling, but it's something I know was caused when I started messing with the metal. Just something to keep in mind if you think about cutting the metal up top. I haven't read through the entire post, so I don't know specifically what part you're talking about or your intentions, but it sounds like you are talking about cutting a descent amount of metal out.

cordes
06-04-2009, 11:52 AM
I don't know what that looks like, but I "modified" my strut tower for my Ground Control plates and the metal is flexing. You can hear it popping when going slow and some when driving down the road. Granted, it sounds like the two pieces of sheet metal are moving ever so slightly, but this has been a problem since I put the plates on. It doesn't affect the handling, but it's something I know was caused when I started messing with the metal. Just something to keep in mind if you think about cutting the metal up top. I haven't read through the entire post, so I don't know specifically what part you're talking about or your intentions, but it sounds like you are talking about cutting a descent amount of metal out.

They are speaking of cutting it differently than what you did IIRC.

rbryant
06-04-2009, 02:30 PM
I don't know what that looks like, but I "modified" my strut tower for my Ground Control plates and the metal is flexing. You can hear it popping when going slow and some when driving down the road. Granted, it sounds like the two pieces of sheet metal are moving ever so slightly, but this has been a problem since I put the plates on. It doesn't affect the handling, but it's something I know was caused when I started messing with the metal. Just something to keep in mind if you think about cutting the metal up top. I haven't read through the entire post, so I don't know specifically what part you're talking about or your intentions, but it sounds like you are talking about cutting a descent amount of metal out.

Those are valid concerns. We were talking about taking just the very inside portion of the top layer out. This is the area that curves upward on the top layer only. We would not cut anything out of the second layer.

Is this the same modification you made?

Also one other big difference is that my plates attach on the bottom side of the tower so all of the weight is pushing upward into the tower rather than being held to the tower with bolts.

There was an issue of sport compact car where they were concerned about weakening the towers where they cut room for adjusting bolts and they welded in steel rings around where they cut things. This might be an option to fix the problem you are having. They called it the mickey mouse modification because the welded in areas looked like ears.

It seems like I have seen pictures of your setup somewhere but I can't seem to find it now. Do you happen to have pictures of what you cut?

Thanks for the feedback!

-Rich

minigts
06-04-2009, 03:41 PM
Those are valid concerns. We were talking about taking just the very inside portion of the top layer out. This is the area that curves upward on the top layer only. We would not cut anything out of the second layer.

Is this the same modification you made?

Also one other big difference is that my plates attach on the bottom side of the tower so all of the weight is pushing upward into the tower rather than being held to the tower with bolts.

There was an issue of sport compact car where they were concerned about weakening the towers where they cut room for adjusting bolts and they welded in steel rings around where they cut things. This might be an option to fix the problem you are having. They called it the mickey mouse modification because the welded in areas looked like ears.

It seems like I have seen pictures of your setup somewhere but I can't seem to find it now. Do you happen to have pictures of what you cut?

Thanks for the feedback!

-Rich

Hey Rich,

Yeah that is the part I'm talking about, but I MAY have cut some of the lower part out, I'm not sure. I don't remember doing it though. Seems I had to cut the top part off for the lip and the rest was cool because there was plenty of room for the strut rod to move around. I can double check. And to be honest, it may be the build of my car, i.e., poorer quality than other cars or thinner metal on the L bodies?

Here are a few pics of what I cut.

And believe me, the time spent on these is going to make them well worth it, so I'm definitely not discounting anything anyone has done, namely you. But I didn't have the popping sound before I did the mod on my car and now I do. Just something to consider. The pics I've seen look really good though! :thumb:

minigts
06-04-2009, 03:46 PM
...

Also one other big difference is that my plates attach on the bottom side of the tower so all of the weight is pushing upward into the tower rather than being held to the tower with bolts.
...

-Rich

I forgot to add, this will probably make the difference. Mine are top mounted, so I can see them flexing more. You wouldn't happen to have some spare templates laying around you no longer need do you? :eyebrows: I was going to have some lower plates made to clamp between the upper plate to help reduce or eliminate the problem.

rbryant
06-04-2009, 04:37 PM
Hey Rich,

Yeah that is the part I'm talking about, but I MAY have cut some of the lower part out, I'm not sure. I don't remember doing it though. Seems I had to cut the top part off for the lip and the rest was cool because there was plenty of room for the strut rod to move around. I can double check. And to be honest, it may be the build of my car, i.e., poorer quality than other cars or thinner metal on the L bodies?

Here are a few pics of what I cut.

And believe me, the time spent on these is going to make them well worth it, so I'm definitely not discounting anything anyone has done, namely you. But I didn't have the popping sound before I did the mod on my car and now I do. Just something to consider. The pics I've seen look really good though! :thumb:

Thanks for the pictures!

I think this is a bit more material than I would remove. the other thing to consider is that the top side is generally less flat than the bottom.

You might want to consider having a plate welded on either the top side of your towers to clean things up and stop the flex.

My setup won't require any cutting it would only be a cosmetic thing (the holes might look a little big and empty with the stock lip). I can take some pictures and show people what they look like.

Being on the bottom side and using the stock holes with the option of two extra holes on my plates should be better than having to make a universal plate fit where you have to make even more holes in the tower, etc.

I also am not taking anything away from your setup. Without a set of plates that were made to fit your setup is the only other option and I also considered doing it a few years back. Top mounted plates also give you extra suspension travel but they are a much more extensive modification than the bolt on ones that I am making.

-Rich

rbryant
06-04-2009, 04:41 PM
I forgot to add, this will probably make the difference. Mine are top mounted, so I can see them flexing more. You wouldn't happen to have some spare templates laying around you no longer need do you? :eyebrows: I was going to have some lower plates made to clamp between the upper plate to help reduce or eliminate the problem.

The plates themselves are easy the adjuster is the hard part of the setup.

I can have something cut if you want but everything I have is setup around the stock mounting holes so it wouldn't match what you are doing.

If you just got a round steel plate and welded it in and then hit it with a holesaw and drilled out the holes as needed that is probably your best option. Bolting it in would probably also work. Just take a hand drawing to a waterjet shop and they should be able to make you a set of steel plates for $50 or so (as long as they don't have a big setup fee). For 2d work I always draw them out first in a cad program and give them a dxf file to avoid the fees.

Even emachineshop.com will work if you don't have a local shop.

-Rich

rbryant
06-04-2009, 04:44 PM
The bumps in the strut towers for the non-L body cars can be easily removed using a GOOD 1/2" drive drill and using two hole saws(one guide, one cutter). :thumb:

BTW have you actually removed yours? If so do you have pictures?

I bet if I got my friend to weld the two layers together right in the center of the hole along the cut line that it would help to clean things up and would solve the flex problem...

-Rich

Reaper1
06-04-2009, 11:23 PM
BTW have you actually removed yours? If so do you have pictures?

I bet if I got my friend to weld the two layers together right in the center of the hole along the cut line that it would help to clean things up and would solve the flex problem...

-Rich

Yes, I have my "bumps" removed. The thing to remember is that my strut tower bar and camber plates are integrated. The entire top of the strut tower has another plate bolted on to it as well...

I have pics, just gotta find them! :thumb:

turboz523
06-28-2009, 10:57 AM
any new updates on when these will be ready?

rbryant
07-01-2009, 12:50 AM
any new updates on when these will be ready?

I am out of town until the 8th. They are supposed to be all machined by then and then I can take them to the annodizer. Hopefully it will be the following week.

Nothing ever seems to go as planned with getting these made though. :(

-Rich

zin
07-01-2009, 05:12 PM
Nothing ever seems to go as planned with getting these made though. :(

-Rich

Hang in there, anytime a new product is developed, there will be "growing pains". Plus, when you aren't a regular customer of the machine shop/etc, they often don't take you as seriously as you would think they should, so it drags on and on, but perseverance will pay off!

Mike

rbryant
07-10-2009, 01:37 PM
I am picking up the adjusters and plates from the machine shop today for both the lbody and gphkj bodys and taking them in for anodizing. I plan on just making them black.

The shaft bushings are going to be made while the adjusters and plates are getting anodized and I will order up all of the bearings and hardware so hopefully we can ship in a week.

-Rich

2.216VTurbo
07-10-2009, 02:58 PM
Still subscribed:eyebrows:...

rbryant
07-10-2009, 05:08 PM
Still subscribed:eyebrows:...

We are almost there honest.

I just need to get the parts back from anodizing and get the bushings and custom washers made which is in the works.

We have the hard part done and the shop will want their money soon so they should get the easy parts done quickly.

I will order the bearings and hardware this weekend.

-Rich

rbryant
07-11-2009, 04:59 PM
Several people have asked me how to order and are ready to send payment so I put up the initial ordering page and payment button here:

http://rbryant.freeshell.org/suspension_products.htm

I am going to do $275 plus shipping ($285 total) for the first run for both types of plates. I will probably up it to $300 for the next batch if demand merits but I want to keep the prices as low as possible for the first people and everyone that has been waiting for a year now...

Thanks for your patience with this! I would like to ship next week I just need the bushings and to get them back from hard anodizing so it might push into the next week at the latest.

I will also post final pictures as soon as everything is complete.

If you plan on running a strut that is not for the given application please let me know when/before ordering. Neon struts will require either a special bushing nut or machining to lengthen the threaded area because it is shorter than the bearing I used. Given the different bolt pitches I have decided not to supply a threaded hex bushing and I recommend machining the shaft.

-Rich

2.216VTurbo
07-11-2009, 07:16 PM
Paid:eyebrows: Need to have the GLHS road ready by August 14th. There is a Team Shelby Track weekend here and a few of the 725HP Super Snake boys will be there...

Vigo
07-13-2009, 11:53 AM
Need to have the GLHS road ready by August 14th. There is a Team Shelby Track weekend here and a few of the 725HP Super Snake boys will be there

'Git 'em! Also take pics :)

TurbododgePirate
07-13-2009, 11:55 AM
Whats the deal with the imprezza strut?? I haven't read that before. Will this need a special bushing for a 2nd gen neon strut?

rbryant
07-13-2009, 12:08 PM
Whats the deal with the imprezza strut?? I haven't read that before. Will this need a special bushing for a 2nd gen neon strut?

There is a thread here on using impreza struts:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38269&highlight=impreza+strut

The main problem with the 2g neon strut with my plates is that the top of the shaft has a very short threaded area. The lbody and daytona are much longer. The bearing I use is a large spherical bearing so that it will handle a large load and not wear out. The bearing is 3/4" thick and has a 3/4" center hole so it requires a bushing to reduce to the 14mm threaded area. The threaded area on the neon strut is short and not much over 3/4" so it isn't possible to use a nut on top of the bushing so the top bushing would have to be a threaded hex bushing so that it can be tightened down. If I were to make these bushings I still have a problem supplying them because not all of the struts have the same thread pitch on the top nut...

The other option on the 2g neon strut is to simply machine the top of the shaft to extend the 14mm section so that the normal bushings for the lbody or daytona can be used. I currently feel that this is a better option. People could either turn them on a lathe or go cheap and put them on a grinding wheel.

The 2g neon strut will also need either some spacers to connect to the lbody/kbody knuckles or require the use of a 2g neon knuckle.

I haven't made the knuckle spacers but I can if I there is demand.

Koni cut a struts are also a good option! I may eventually use those on my car because you can get them with adjustable bound and rebound.

-Rich

rbryant
07-22-2009, 12:52 PM
Ok good news and bad news...

I have the plates back from anodizing and they look really good. I will get some pictures tonight and add them to this post.

16117

The bad news is that I missed something... We made the center strut shaft nut hole small to help support the bearing (overkill) and with a 22mm nut I am not sure there is enough room to tighten the nut through the plate...

16118


I guess i just missed it because I didn't have the bushings yet and was more concerned about the plate fitting the car and the adjuster that I never bolted in a strut on the prototype...

I will probably have to mill out the large center oval on all of the plates that I made. That would also remove the annodizing on the inside lip. I would then either have to leave that part bare or send the whole first batch through the anodizing again...

It would be possible to tighten the adjuster to the strut first and then connect the adjuster to the plate which might be ok but I need to see what the options are.

-Rich

zin
07-22-2009, 04:05 PM
...We made the center strut shaft nut hole small to help support the bearing (overkill) and with a 22mm nut I am not sure there is enough room to tighten the nut through the plate...

I will probably have to mill out the large center oval on all of the plates that I made.
-Rich

It might be possible to save your time and effort if you can find a 12 point flange nut. They typically don't require anything near the radial clearance of a standard hex nut and so might fit right in without the need for modification of the plates, might even mean no re-design is needed at all, assuming that they don't cost an arm and a leg!:thumb:

Mike

rbryant
07-22-2009, 04:14 PM
It might be possible to save your time and effort if you can find a 12 point flange nut. They typically don't require anything near the radial clearance of a standard hex nut and so might fit right in without the need for modification of the plates, might even mean no re-design is needed at all, assuming that they don't cost an arm and a leg!:thumb:

Mike

I actually looked for a flange nut this morning but my source does 10, 12, 16mm and skips 14mm.

The other issue is that different struts use different tread pitches so I wanted to avoid supplying nuts.

I think I will just put them on the mill and enlarge the holes. IF the center lip is machined and not anodized it won't hurt anything.

Thanks for the idea though.

I am also adding a custom double washer with a setting indicator hole so that you can make a mark when at the alignment rack for each setting you want to run and have a precise way of setting the car back to the mark.

-Rich

rbryant
07-23-2009, 03:31 AM
bump for pictures of anodization!

-Rich

cordes
07-23-2009, 08:59 AM
Those look really good Rich.

minigts
07-23-2009, 09:49 AM
Those look really good Rich.

+1 Nice looking and very symmetric! :)

rbryant
07-23-2009, 07:25 PM
+1 Nice looking and very symmetric! :)

Yea I added optional outside bolts for the lbody plates and made them a 3/8 carriage bolt. That way you don't have to hold the bolt head when tightening. The GKHJP plates use a 5/16 carriage bolt because they already have 3 bolts and that seemed sufficient.

The GKHJP plates could have been slightly smaller but I wanted them to make full contact with the top of the strut hat the way the stock ones do. The originals that I designed were smaller but it looked like from the paint on the junkyard stock one showed a 360 degree connection so I figured that would be best.

BTW the GKHJP plates won't work on caravans. The Caravan uses the same strut mount but it rotates the bolt pattern so the adjuster is no longer perpendicular to the car. I would have to make a custom plate for Caravans if anyone wants them. I haven't heard of any demand for the vans but perhaps people assumed they could use the car plates so let me know if you need them for a van.

-Rich

Chris W
07-23-2009, 10:23 PM
Lookin' Good Rich :thumb:

ikknown
07-29-2009, 08:19 PM
any updates for us yet? I cant wait. Kinda like a little kid on there birthday.

Vigo
07-30-2009, 12:01 PM
The Caravan uses the same strut mount but it rotates the bolt pattern so the adjuster is no longer perpendicular to the car.

Hmm, maybe a little more caster thrown in there with your camber wouldnt be a bad thing ;) assuming the angle is towards the back.

Cant wait to see these things on a car and hear the feedback. :D

rx2mazda
07-30-2009, 09:28 PM
Cant wait to see these things on a car and hear the feedback. :D

+1:nod:

rbryant
07-31-2009, 02:14 PM
any updates for us yet? I cant wait. Kinda like a little kid on there birthday.

Sorry for the delay in responding.

I have been really busy at my day job this week. I had a guy from another company in working with me for the past 3 days.

Anyway...

The mill and lathe have been acting up in the 110+ degree heat over the past couple of weeks.

I am going to go in and work with him 1:1 tomorrow to get the bushings and plates fixed. I will run the damn machines myself if I have to. :)

If that doesn't work I will get the bushings machined somewhere else.

-Rich

2.216VTurbo
07-31-2009, 05:18 PM
Sigh, I was hoping to have them installed for the Team Shelby SoCal track weekend Aug 15/16:o Gotta play with some fast Super Snakes:eyebrows:

rbryant
07-31-2009, 06:10 PM
Sigh, I was hoping to have them installed for the Team Shelby SoCal track weekend Aug 15/16:o Gotta play with some fast Super Snakes:eyebrows:

I will get them to you before then even if I have to make the bushings with my teeth. :)

-Rich

rbryant
08-04-2009, 01:15 AM
I got a small number of the bushings made on a manual lathe this past weekend and I was able to use the manual mill to enlarge the plate openings. Things get slow when the CNC machines fry boards and stop working in the Arizona heat... We set records last month and averaged 98 degrees...

Here are the finished Lbody plates:

Top:
16411

The top nuts are self locking and washers are included so they don't scratch the paint. The outer two bolts are optional and require drilling but are not really required. The stock lbody holes are larger than the stock 8mm bolt holes so I used larger 3/8 bolts. I left the GKJHP bolts at 5/16 because there are always 3 of them anyway. They had to be standard sized because I couldn't find a good source for metric carriage bolts.


Bottom:

16412

Notice the carriage bolts and how they fit into the slots and don't require a wrench on the bottom side.

Bearing Bushings (these shouldn't have been such a pain for me):
16413

The strut its self is larger that the ID of the bearing so the T lip doesn't have to support the weight of the car (it is a compression force not a shear force on that lip).

I am still waiting on the spacers for the GJKHP plates. They will extend the non machined strut shaft upward so that it looks like the lbody connection and adds another .625 of strut travel over stock (some people were concerned about that). The strut hat will actually fit over the spacer in this design so that no modifications are required to the actual strut shaft.

The main CNC machine has fried a board from the phoenix heat so I can't rely on it getting done this week so I ordered them from another source (and ordered more than enough to cover the first production run).

I will have them one way or another early next week and I have 3 more sets of Gbody plates and 1 more set of lbody plates left from the first run that haven't been spoken for.

All of the lbody orders shipped either today or will ship tomorrow.

-Rich

2.216VTurbo
08-04-2009, 01:37 AM
:clap::partywoot:

rbryant
08-04-2009, 02:05 AM
:clap::partywoot:

Thanks for the patience!

I think the kinks are all out of producing them now. I have no trouble getting the top plates, adjusters, and anodizing done now so I plan on making a second run shortly.

I still plan on making a nice double washer for the top. I will ship those out free of charge to everyone that has ordered once I get them made. They aren't really necessary so I am not going to delay shipping for them.

16414

The small hole is to mark your street and race settings.

-Rich

rbryant
08-04-2009, 01:10 PM
Alan,

Are you going to be at the socal meeting this week?

If so can you can bring your second set of camber plates to show off? :)

-Rich

ikknown
08-09-2009, 04:49 PM
Got the plates Friday, look great can't wait to put on car.

rbryant
08-09-2009, 06:28 PM
Got the plates Friday, look great can't wait to put on car.

Sounds good. Please let us know how they work for you. It is impossible for me to test all configurations of springs and suspension setups. My biggest concern is strut travel.

The Daytona bushings are in and look great (Thanks to Bruce "Top Fuel Bender"). LaserDad has been waiting patiently so I expect him to have them installed very soon. :)

The Daytona setup uses a thick stock plate so there should be no strut travel loss on that application.

16503
16504

The cat approves...
16505

-Rich

"Top Fuel" Bender
08-11-2009, 10:44 PM
The Daytona bushings are in and look great (Thanks to Bruce "Top Fuel Bender").

-Rich

Glad to help out and keep these rolling
Looking good , lmk if there is anything else I can help with

johnl
08-12-2009, 03:38 PM
Cute cat. How much?



Just kidding . . . . lol.

Still subscribed too.

rbryant
08-12-2009, 05:24 PM
Cute cat. How much?



Just kidding . . . . lol.

Still subscribed too.

At this point I don't think I could separate the wife and the cat. I am not really prepared or willing to offer them up as a package deal.

Plus he sometimes shows you his belly to pet and then attacks your hand with teeth and claws...

-Rich

rbryant
08-31-2009, 12:52 PM
The Gbody coilovers are also ready to go.

Here are some pictures of LaserDad's Gbody camber plate install:

Stock top:
17025

Camber plate in stock top:
17026

We can see that without cutting it would need a 3/8" or so spacer for the bolt heads to clear. I could make the spacer but then adjusting them would be impossible without removing the hat from the strut which defeats the purpose.

Cut top:
17027

Cut top with strut brace:
17028

Full view:
17029

Bottom side of coilover (IIRC he is actually using a VW coilover):
17030

The front bottoms were only modified slightly camber angles aren't a big concern because can adjust them using my top plates!:
17338

These could also be used on the lbody if GKJPH spindles are used.

It might also be possible to get the coilover company to use a 1G neon bottom with the VW top so that no modifications are needed.

The top VW rear has a shock eye top mount like the lbody:
17339

The rears are closer to lbody rears so they require the spring be moved to the stock location and a second adjustable collar and bumpstop when used on a gbody this wouldn't be necessary on the lbody:
17340


I have these in stock if anyone else is ready for them!

Thanks,

Rich

Reaper1
08-31-2009, 11:02 PM
Wow..those look really nice! I might have to look in to these when I get some $$$...dunno when that'll be, but if they are still an option I'll definitely be looking at them!

2.216VTurbo
08-31-2009, 11:20 PM
Any time to do some tweeks on the L body plates?

rbryant
09-01-2009, 01:24 PM
Any time to do some tweeks on the L body plates?

I have some drawings but I haven't mocked them up.

I think if we do change them to let the bearing come through the plate on the lbody it will require cutting of the strut tower similar to how Laserdad cut his on the daytona.

Or we could go with a smaller bearing but that is less desireable.

Let me see just how much would have to be cut with the large bearings...

The other thing is that it will only gain back about .5" max even if we go with a thinner 1/4" top plate instead of 3/8".

-Rich

turboz523
09-01-2009, 09:30 PM
Just sent a payment for a set of these, can't wait to put them on.

rbryant
09-01-2009, 09:40 PM
Just sent a payment for a set of these, can't wait to put them on.

Thanks for the order I will ship them out tomorrow!

-Rich

LaserDad
09-03-2009, 10:24 AM
I just wanted to say that Rich's camber plates are really nice. He has done our community a great service, because these were not easy to design. I have seen several other attempts and none of them even came close to the amount of thought that he put into them.

I have done a coilover conversion using Megan Racing's 93-98 VW Golf3 kit, but I haven't been able to test drive and perfect the setup yet. I plan to do a full writeup in the future, but for now I want to warn everyone that it may not work as well as it looks, because the Megan coilovers only have 4 inches of travel, compared to the G-body's original 8.

My ride height is basicaly the same for now and I can always put the original suspension back in without any mods. It is just a bolt on change.

I plan to get the car back on the road this weekend and will try to post a followup.

rbryant
09-03-2009, 01:37 PM
One other option would be to ask BC, Megan, Ksport, etc to build you a set of 2G Neon coilovers with a 1G Neon bottom. They normally offer them with a top plate but they obviously don't make a daytona or lbody one.

The 2G neon strut is very close to the daytona/charger length. The 1G bottom is the same as the daytona.

These also eliminiate most height problems because they adjust the height by moving the whole strut body downward into the bottom rather than just having a screw on the strut that moves up and down.

I know it is possible because lots of 1G Neon guys are getting their 1G struts made with 2G bottoms so they can upgrade to SRT4/PT spindles and keep the 1G strut dimensions.

-Rich

todd900ss
09-10-2009, 11:26 AM
PM sent about l body camber plates.

rbryant
09-10-2009, 06:01 PM
bump

Based on questions I added pictures of the VW shock connections (front and rear) to the previous post showing Bob's setup.

-Rich

Mario
09-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Nice install LaserDad. Can't wait to hear more.

Rich, great products you are offering / making. Can't wait to put an order in.

Vigo
09-11-2009, 10:17 AM
The 2G neon strut is very close to the daytona/charger length.

FYI i just got some stock srt-4 spring/struts onto my dynasty. The ride height was almost identical to the cut dynasty springs on gr-2s that i replaced. I have 245/40r17 on that car and still have 2 or 3 fingers of wheelgap.

So they are DEFINITELY more feasible for k-derivatives than 1g struts which left NO wheelgap on 205/50r15s! :)

Turbo3Iroc
09-11-2009, 11:10 AM
Did you have those 2g strts modified Vigo?

rbryant
09-11-2009, 01:46 PM
Did you have those 2g strts modified Vigo?

The problem with the neon struts for the camber plates is that the threaded area is so short... Vigo must have at a minimum machined that to be longer.

I am talking to some coilover manufacturers about pricing on half kits with no hats that would fit my plates correctly.

-Rich

bgbmxer
09-28-2009, 07:56 PM
are the l body camber plates done yet? what price also?

rbryant
09-28-2009, 08:28 PM
are the l body camber plates done yet? what price also?

Yes I have a couple of lbody plates from the first run left.

They are $285 shipped.

http://rbryant.freeshell.org/suspension_products.htm

-Rich

Vigo
09-29-2009, 12:03 AM
sorry to have left hanging.

Yes, i did modify the strut shaft in the same way shown in the kyb AGX thread. I did it with a bench grinder, just like on the 1st gens i did.

My srt struts are wasted, but every indication is that the stock srt-4 front stuff is a great upgrade from stock if you can get it cheap.

Srt-4 struts by themselves may still be a good option for the camber plates for those willing to modify the strut shaft (by whatever method you choose). A cheapy coilover on a stock srt koni and Rich's camber plates is gonna be damn near the best possible thing for these cars as far as maintaining travel at a lower ride height and having good spring rates, damping, and camber angle in one package.

FYI the diameter of the threaded area of the neon shaft is identical to the k-car struts or close to it, so it will fit into the k-car camber plate area without modifying the plate. Only modify the (relatively cheap and replaceable) strut.

rbryant
10-15-2009, 03:45 AM
Ok I am working on making a second run of the lbody camber plates. The second run will be only for people that are willing to cut their strut towers. It allows most of the bearing to actually be above the strut tower while the plate is below rather than placing the bearing under the plate and tower.

Alan insisted on this for his "race/street car" so if this is what you want you can thank him.

They will come with a reinforcing ring to make sure no strength is lost from the material that was removed. cutting it out was actually easy. I just drilled two the two strut mounting holes in a piece of scrap aluminum. I then found the center and after the pilot hole was drilled it was cake. The only trick is that you need an extra long pilot bit in your arbor. And you have to buy the $30 hole saw. :(

Here are pictures of my car with the lips cut off out to 4.5" with a hole saw. I have always hated the look of that stupid lip on the lbody strut towers anyway....

The stock holes come a little closer than I would have liked to the hole. plan on making a 4.25" center hole ring that will cover up all of this and sandwich everything together for added strength.

Here is my car with an early prototype bolted on. My angles were slightly off on this one so the bolt holes ended up off slightly this is now fixed (if you look closely you can see my measuring strings).

Driver Side (I got slightly too far backward but the reinforcing/cover ring will cover up my slight mistake):
17980

Passenger Side:
17981

New Design on top:
17982

Prototype CAD picture (reinforcement/cover ring, plate, adjuster):
17983


BTW: These allow us to use 1G neon rear strut bars as bolt on pieces... The bolt holes line up and the adjustment screws are within range.

This allows an easy bolt on bar for $22 from ebay. Of course this assumes that you can get it to clear your engine components as you can see I don't have a 2 piece intake in there. The mounts can be flipped though and it moves the bar back about 4-5 inches and still works so it gives two options. Alternatively the tabs could be cut off and welded to the reinforcing rings and placed where desired! (This will also work with the first productoin run of lbody plates)

Driver:
17984

Passenger:
17985

Full (please excuse the state of my engine bay):
17986

I am working with Bruce to machine this run so it is all in the family here and he is of course giving me very good support.

I need to know how many of these to make so if you are seriously interested in a set of these in the next month please PM me.



-Rich

todd900ss
10-15-2009, 09:20 AM
Rich, will they work with the Koni coilovers? I like the idea of the Neon coilovers & the way the ride hight will not change the travel, but I don't know how the rear struts will work with a Koni or any other rear shock that will have different valving.

rbryant
10-15-2009, 01:50 PM
Rich, will they work with the Koni coilovers? I like the idea of the Neon coilovers & the way the ride hight will not change the travel, but I don't know how the rear struts will work with a Koni or any other rear shock that will have different valving.

Yes these will work with koni coilovers. They only change the front though. The rear is untouched.

The beauty of the Konis and some other struts is that they are adjustable so you can tune them to your needs.

For Neon konis you need to modify them slightly and they are a shorter strut so the first run camber plates would probably work better than the max travel plates.

-Rich

todd900ss
10-15-2009, 05:04 PM
Rich, I had not thought about running the neon front koni & the l body rear koni. I was thinking of one of the others that you had mentioned in a pm.
Did you design the new camber plates for the l body koni coilovers?
I have two blown struts on my car now so I need to figure out what way to go. Most seem happy with the l body koni coilovers but I dont like the limited travel & don't know how low the car can be lowered with them befor they start to bottom-out. I am not building the car for one type of motorsport, but more of a do all. Autox, track days & maybe some trips to the drag strip.
Any input from you is always helpful.

Badger
10-15-2009, 09:41 PM
I could use some input as well. I have regular L body Koni's on my rampage. I care more about handling then going fast in a straight line. Id like to switch to coilovers along with your pieces but whats the best combo to run?? If I have to switch to a different strut then the Koni's, Im prepared to do that.

rbryant
10-16-2009, 02:59 PM
Rich, I had not thought about running the neon front koni & the l body rear koni. I was thinking of one of the others that you had mentioned in a pm.
Did you design the new camber plates for the l body koni coilovers?
I have two blown struts on my car now so I need to figure out what way to go. Most seem happy with the l body koni coilovers but I dont like the limited travel & don't know how low the car can be lowered with them befor they start to bottom-out. I am not building the car for one type of motorsport, but more of a do all. Autox, track days & maybe some trips to the drag strip.
Any input from you is always helpful.

They are designed to work with the lbody coilovers. The lbody coilovers are limited because they adjust the perch rather than the tube going up and down on the knuckle like some of the aftermarket units like BC, Megan, Ksport, etc as shown in LaserDad's setup.

The new design will lose a maximum of .25" of travel. You need to have 2" of travel in both directions.

If you are lowering your car beyond the point where the control arms are parallel with the ground then you have gone too far. If the arms point upward then the geometries are all wrong. The only solution for going lower is to put in an adjustable or taller ball joint and that also can only help so much.

In short they are designed to work with lbody coilovers and that is exactly what Alan has.

-Rich

rbryant
10-16-2009, 03:09 PM
I could use some input as well. I have regular L body Koni's on my rampage. I care more about handling then going fast in a straight line. Id like to switch to coilovers along with your pieces but whats the best combo to run?? If I have to switch to a different strut then the Koni's, Im prepared to do that.

They will work with the lbody coilovers or gbody coilovers. I feel that the ones that adjust the strut downward inside of the knuckle connection is a superior setup though because the travel is not sacrificed when you change ride height.

Of course I still have koni coilovers myself. :)

-Rich

rbryant
11-17-2009, 03:17 AM
I have the revised lbody plates in hand and they are off to the anodize shop tomorow.

They fix the problem of giving up too much travel that some people didn't like about the first set. They do however require cutting of the strut towers in order to get full adjustment out of them.

In order to ensure that there are no comprises in strength they come with a steel reinforcing ring that bolts on to the top of the tower.

They will be $300 plus shipping for the first 4 sets and then I plan to bump them up to $325. They come with all of the hardware that you need to install them. Every nut and bolt bearing, etc is included.

Here are the pictures.

Installed (The 1st Gen neon rear strut bar bolts right in and clears the DOHC engine but it probably wouldn't work with a 2 piece intake):
18717

Closeup:
18718

Bottom Side (shorter bolts are on order):
18719

Profile:
18720

Reinforcing Ring: I am going to leave it bare and people can paint/powdercoat as desired. I have a feeling that some people will be welding these in while others will want the color to match their car so painting them wouldn't make sense.
18721

Removed Lip (not that big of a deal of course the holesaw ate another 1/8" but it doesn't amount to much):
18722



I will get pictures of them up on my ordering website shortly.

Thanks,

Rich

minigts
11-17-2009, 10:48 AM
Rich, EXCELLENT WORK!!!! Man, I wish I had need for these. :) Top notch. :thumb:

Reaper1
11-17-2009, 11:25 AM
VERY nice!

rbryant
11-17-2009, 12:32 PM
Thanks guys!

Sorry it has taken so long. These are a little more advanced than the first set but they will have less adjustment unless the towers are cut. Even without cutting they will still give a little adjustment over stock and remove the rubber from the suspension which was what a lot of people really wanted.

I have a good deal of money into these now so hopefully people are ready to order them!

-Rich

johnl
11-17-2009, 08:05 PM
I'll take one of those 1st four please. PM to be sent.

rbryant
11-17-2009, 08:22 PM
Rich, EXCELLENT WORK!!!! Man, I wish I had need for these. :) Top notch. :thumb:

Time for you to buy another project car then you can use them. ;)

Thanks for the compliment. I made some mistakes along the way but I think we are in good shape now and have a very good product. I learned a lot during the process.

Bruce "Top Fuel" Bender and Luzader Machine also deserve credit for doing a good job with the machine work. Everything in this run was machined from within the turbo-mopar.com family.

-Rich

gkabbt
11-17-2009, 08:51 PM
Rich,

Got your email about these this morning and I have to agree with everyone.....Excellent work!!!
As I told you, I do not do PayPal so I got a Money Order off to you today for a set.

I look forward to a set of these being on my LSR Rampage.

Also, my thanks to all in the turbo-mopar.com family that made these happen.

Thanks,
Gregg

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-17-2009, 08:58 PM
Thanks everyone for the kind words

Rich did a lot of work/research on designing these
another great contribution to the Turbo-mopar community
Nice option over universal junk
Wish I had these when I was lowering my omni before I slotted the knuckles

Looking forward to see what he comes up with next

minigts
11-17-2009, 10:30 PM
Time for you to buy another project car then you can use them. ;)

Thanks for the compliment. I made some mistakes along the way but I think we are in good shape now and have a very good product. I learned a lot during the process.

Bruce "Top Fuel" Bender and Luzader Machine also deserve credit for doing a good job with the machine work. Everything in this run was machined from within the turbo-mopar.com family.

-Rich

Believe me man, if I get another Charger I'm getting your plates! :) I'd mess with the IROC, but I'm trying to keep it stock and not really mess with it. Another Charger, that's a whole 'nother story. ;)

Vigo
11-18-2009, 01:15 AM
2G Neon coilovers with a 1G Neon bottom.

I may be remembering incorrectly here but i am pretty sure that on a 1g neon strut (or at least the ones i have) the part that wraps around the strut body at the bottom is basically the 2g bottom piece with a spacer/insert (shaped like a U) welded in to take up the extra space and bring the width back down to 1g neon / k-car spindle width. If you could get that part by itself you could just slap it on.

Thanks again for all the hard work you're doing.

I think i may look into drilling the upper rear shock mount area on the k-car like you pictured to use some 2g dsm AGX struts ive had sitting for ages...
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17339&d=1252606397
Looked up the length online and it appears to be within ~1" of a stock rear shock and has a through bolt on bottom... HMMMMMMM:thumb:
http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/aub/G51254/image/8/
^ 2g dsm rear strut

rbryant
11-18-2009, 02:31 AM
I may be remembering incorrectly here but i am pretty sure that on a 1g neon strut (or at least the ones i have) the part that wraps around the strut body at the bottom is basically the 2g bottom piece with a spacer/insert (shaped like a U) welded in to take up the extra space and bring the width back down to 1g neon / k-car spindle width. If you could get that part by itself you could just slap it on.


Hmm it is possible that some manufacturers did that in order to make only one style bottom. The stock style 1G strut I have in the garage was not made extra wide like that (only the wrap around piece and U piece in the same thicknesses as my lbody and gbody struts)

If there is a demand I agree I can make spacers. I had thought about it but I thought the coilover companies would be eaiser to work with and it could be avoided...

I think just a simple plate bent into a U or even simpler: two separate pieces on each side of the strut would work.


I could probably offer them for $20 a pair or less. If someone is looking to run 2G neon struts and needs them I can probably get them made in a week or two out of steel or probably just aluminum would be fine (will think about it).

-Rich

Vigo
11-18-2009, 12:17 PM
I dont know if there is really all that much demand for them.. I am just throwing out my own observations.. I.e. if the strut companies have superceded the original 1g strut design with that 2g bottom and an insert (which cost them pennies) then it would be easy to get them to leave it out like you mentioned of the 1g neon people. It MAY be possible to buy just a box of those inserts if you find someone friendly at a strut manufacturer.

Personally, i just grabbed two more of those spacers (the ones that have two holes and go between the nut and the strut body when you bolt to the spindle) and stuck one in between the strut and spindle on both sides. They are not as wide as they should be to do the job but i was able to tighten them up easily with my IR impact :p

2.216VTurbo
11-18-2009, 12:25 PM
Very nice Rich, I :love:the revisions you've made:thumb: Increased travel FTW! Us wimpy guys with soft springs need that;)

eski
11-19-2009, 07:15 AM
Looks good. It would be nice to have list for example good coilover combinations for different cars.

eski
11-19-2009, 07:15 AM
Looks good. It would be nice to have list for example good coilover combinations for different cars.

I my seft like to know which coilovers with camber plates would fit to spirit.

Reaper1
11-19-2009, 11:03 AM
Looks good. It would be nice to have list for example good coilover combinations for different cars.

I my seft like to know which coilovers with camber plates would fit to spirit.

Spring combinations for each car are going to be different depending on the usage of the car, suspension height, weight, and overall driver preference. A blanket statement for that is kinda hard to do.

I know that the Eibach ProKit springs most of us are used to are about 300 lb/in in the front, and 330 lb/in in the rear. I know a friend of mine using 400 lb/in in the front and 450 lb/in in the rear (IIRC), but that is getting pretty darn stiff for the street.

CS Racer might have some insight on this as well.

minigts
11-19-2009, 11:46 AM
I have low 200's in the front and 300-330's in the rear. I think MY car is stiff, so I'd hate to ride in the one that has 400's! :) I did have some stiffer springs on my Charger before, but the ride was horrible for city driving. Road racing would be a whole 'nother story. If Simon is reading this, he can tell you what the springs rates are as he bought the set from me.

Reaper1
11-19-2009, 01:48 PM
Well, I suppose it would help if I gave a refference as to what vehicle I was talking about! LOL

It is an '89 Shelby Daytona T-top car, so probably the heaviest Daytona ever built, hence the need for stiffer springs. By my standards it rides very stiff. Because the suspension is all brand new and it has good dampers it is tollerable for short amounts of time, but personally I wouldn't want to drive it for long trips. Having said that, he's driven the car from Florida to Ohio and back and done a few other longer trips with it, so it depends on what you are willing to deal with on the street. I also know on those trips he wears ear plugs because it's so loud inside! LOL

rbryant
11-19-2009, 04:14 PM
Spring combinations for each car are going to be different depending on the usage of the car, suspension height, weight, and overall driver preference. A blanket statement for that is kinda hard to do.

I know that the Eibach ProKit springs most of us are used to are about 300 lb/in in the front, and 330 lb/in in the rear. I know a friend of mine using 400 lb/in in the front and 450 lb/in in the rear (IIRC), but that is getting pretty darn stiff for the street.

CS Racer might have some insight on this as well.

Normal coilover kits from BC, etc are something like 330 front and 220 rear(this is for the neon, vw golf, etc). The ground control setup for the lbody is recommended to be 350 front 250 rear.

My car has 350 front, 275 rear.

Dedicated drag racing might want some stiffer rears but it would make for some really uneven handling on the street.

-Rich

rbryant
11-19-2009, 04:14 PM
I have low 200's in the front and 300-330's in the rear. I think MY car is stiff, so I'd hate to ride in the one that has 400's! :) I did have some stiffer springs on my Charger before, but the ride was horrible for city driving. Road racing would be a whole 'nother story. If Simon is reading this, he can tell you what the springs rates are as he bought the set from me.

Are you sure you don't have the 300s in the front and 200s in the rear? :)

rbryant
11-19-2009, 04:28 PM
Looks good. It would be nice to have list for example good coilover combinations for different cars.

I my seft like to know which coilovers with camber plates would fit to spirit.

The spirit is the same as the daytona so you could use the VW golf kit that LaserDad used or you could go with a 2G neon kit (with spacers or srt4/pt kunckles depending on your setup).

What brakes/knuckles do you plan on using? If you run SRT4 or '03-'07 PT cruiser (manual transmission) then the SRT4 coilovers would be bolt in.

From what I have read the SRT4 and PT use a slightly smaller rotor (still 11" or so) but they have a 57mm caliper piston compared to our 10" brake setup's 54mm and 11" brake setup's 60mm.


One other intriguing option is to run the 300c dual piston front calipers with PT/SRT4 knuckles and SRT4 coilovers! I haven't done it but I hear that they bolt on and you can use our 11" rotors with them on the SRT4/PT spindles.

That gives the option of a cheap dual piston caliper without going with a willwood or something aftermarket. I might eventually do that if my rear brake bias is too high with the full 11" rotor setup on my GLHS.

Anyway I need to stop throwing so many options out and confusing people. :)

I will get to work on the spacers for the SRT4 coilovers as that seems like a top option. I have decided that They should really be grooved like the spindles are to guarantee that they don't slip rather than flat plates but that should still be a cheap option to CNC.

-Rich

Vigo
11-20-2009, 01:53 AM
i think comparing coilover spring rates to eibach pro-kits is tricky because the pro-kits are a progressive rate spring and the number for them is probably an average. So even a 200 something lb coilover spring may feel rougher than a 300# eibach pro-kit over small bumps.

Reaper1
11-20-2009, 03:16 AM
The spring rates I quoted for the Pro Kit springs are quantities that were posted MANY years ago by somebody that did some research with Eibach and such. IIRC those are the rates of the coils that are NOT progressive. Based on my crude calculations from my vehicle dynamics class those numbers seem to be pretty accurate.

As for the rear spring rates, you have to remember the suspension design of our cars means that the action on the spring is NOT 1:1. The geometry of the suspension dictates that for a given wheel rate, a different spring rate is needed. I don't have those figures handy at the moment, but I can find them out if needed/wanted.

eski
11-20-2009, 10:14 AM
What brakes/knuckles do you plan on using? If you run SRT4 or '03-'07 PT cruiser (manual transmission) then the SRT4 coilovers would be bolt in.



Well I was hoping for keeping stock knuckles and brakes. What I need to modify to make SRT4 knuckles to fit?




One other intriguing option is to run the 300c dual piston front calipers with PT/SRT4 knuckles and SRT4 coilovers! I haven't done it but I hear that they bolt on and you can use our 11" rotors with them on the SRT4/PT spindles.



That sounds interesting.




I will get to work on the spacers for the SRT4 coilovers as that seems like a top option. I have decided that They should really be grooved like the spindles are to guarantee that they don't slip rather than flat plates but that should still be a cheap option to CNC.



Based only of the viewing the picture of the SRT4 MP coilovers that those would propably fit with your camber plates and spacer.

rbryant
11-20-2009, 12:39 PM
Well I was hoping for keeping stock knuckles and brakes. What I need to modify to make SRT4 knuckles to fit?


They pretty much bolt on other than the brake lines bolt might need to be drilled and tapped out to 7/16 from 10mm. We also have to get manual tranny PT knuckles or SRT4 knuckles to get the right axle splines.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=288835&start=0



Based only of the viewing the picture of the SRT4 MP coilovers that those would propably fit with your camber plates and spacer.

Most SRT4 coilovers will work with my plates.

I am talking to another top rate coilover maker to see if we can make a kit that will be bolt in and use stock TD knuckles. I will let everyone know how it worked out shortly.

-Rich

Austrian Dodge
11-20-2009, 02:20 PM
They pretty much bolt on other than the brake lines bolt might need to be drilled and tapped out to 7/16 from 10mm. We also have to get manual tranny PT knuckles or SRT4 knuckles to get the right axle splines.

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=288835&start=0



Based only of the viewing the picture of the SRT4 MP coilovers that those would propably fit with your camber plates and spacer.

Most SRT4 coilovers will work with my plates.

I am talking to another top rate coilover maker to see if we can make a kit that will be bolt in and use stock TD knuckles. I will let everyone know how it worked out shortly.

-Rich

g-body, g-body, g-body :thumb:

rbryant
11-20-2009, 02:30 PM
Most SRT4 coilovers will work with my plates.

I am talking to another top rate coilover maker to see if we can make a kit that will be bolt in and use stock TD knuckles. I will let everyone know how it worked out shortly.

-Rich

g-body, g-body, g-body :thumb:[/QUOTE]

Yes it would be a mock gbody strut.

It could also be used with the lbody if gbody spindles are used.

-Rich

t3rse
11-20-2009, 05:15 PM
I've got 440# rears in a lightened omni...don't drive over bumps too fast or the back gets air born...275# fronts aren't too bad.

2.216VTurbo
11-21-2009, 01:31 AM
I've got 440# rears in a lightened omni...don't drive over bumps too fast or the back gets air born...275# fronts aren't too bad.


Umkay, Omni's are 63%/37% F/R wieght bias. WHY is anyone running more spring in the rear than the front? Do you guys have APR GT 500 wings back there that has 1800lbs of downforce at 120MPH or what? Confused:confused:...

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-21-2009, 10:28 AM
Umkay, Omni's are 63%/37% F/R wieght bias. WHY is anyone running more spring in the rear than the front? Do you guys have APR GT 500 wings back there that has 1800lbs of downforce at 120MPH or what? Confused:confused:...

It's a dragrace thing, you wouldn't understand :p

though my ex-drag omni seemed to like fighting the 400lb/in springs up front on the launch, while the 325 rears didn't squat, but then again it weigh anything

minigts
11-21-2009, 04:55 PM
Umkay, Omni's are 63%/37% F/R wieght bias. WHY is anyone running more spring in the rear than the front? Do you guys have APR GT 500 wings back there that has 1800lbs of downforce at 120MPH or what? Confused:confused:...

I have heavier springs in the rear, but that was mainly because I'm cheap. :) I think it's good to keep the rear end stiff though.

minigts
11-21-2009, 05:25 PM
I love my suspension setup. :p

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-23-2009, 02:50 PM
did you get the contact info for Sam Stuart Racing I sent you?

rbryant
11-23-2009, 03:11 PM
did you get the contact info for Sam Stuart Racing I sent you?

Yes I talked to him this morning and he is going to buy a set!

Thanks for spreading the word!

-Rich

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-23-2009, 03:28 PM
Yes I talked to him this morning and he is going to buy a set!

Thanks for spreading the word!

-Rich

No problem

turboshad
11-24-2009, 01:17 AM
I periodically check this thread to see the progress. After seeing the final product those look great Rich. It looks like a good solid design. :clap: What's the axial load rating on the sphericals you used?

DJ

rbryant
11-24-2009, 03:58 AM
I periodically check this thread to see the progress. After seeing the final product those look great Rich. It looks like a good solid design. :clap: What's the axial load rating on the sphericals you used?

DJ

The axial rating on them is somewhere around 6250lbs This assumes 20% of the radial load rating. :)

I made them a little bigger than really necessary to increase the life and hopefully never worry about them failing.

They are teflon lined so they also don't need to be greased.

There is a bearing rated for 9000lbs that would also fit if they were to ever fail but it would double the bearing cost.

-Rich

rbryant
11-24-2009, 04:20 PM
I just want to drop a note that I haven't forgotten about the non lbody people out there.

I don't plan to modify the adjusters for the K based cars. The reason is that the struts are shorter (don't bottom out as quickly), and the cam towers are taller than the lbody. In fact the stock Kbased strut hat is actually taller than the bearing on bottom designed adjusters. The bearing on bottom allows me to keep the prices 10% lower on these compared to the lbody plates.

Additionally the 3 hole bolt pattern gives less room for adjustment than the lbody pattern does. That means that the bearing on top design would be more limiting on the adjustment possible due to the area required to retain the bearing.

I have a 2nd generation plate that is ready to be made based on customer feedback that will give more adjustment (mainly caster) than the first generation but I need some orders so that I know I wouldn't be throwing money away by making them. Turnaround time should be quick (1-2weeks) on these.

So are there any lurkers out there looking for the GJKHP camber plates? I will throw in free shipping on the first 4 orders!

Thanks,

Rich

Austrian Dodge
11-24-2009, 05:37 PM
i'm looking for them but have a MAJOR problem: no coilover YET

turboz523
11-24-2009, 08:44 PM
wish I woulda known there was gonna be a redesign with more caster adjustment. Thats what I'm hunting for right now d'oh! I've got the plates on and the most I can get out of it is around 2 degrees positive, I even swapped out the carriage bolts for some regular ones to get that little bit at the end of the slot.

Vigo
11-24-2009, 08:55 PM
well if you're doing your alignment on a machine and dont care about marks you could rotate the bolt patten in the strut tower and drill a second set of holes so that the slot would go towards the rear of the car...

It's something i would do.. dunno if that makes it helpful at all! :p

You could also slot the mounting holes in the k-frame to slide it forward a bit. see above.. :p

rbryant
11-24-2009, 09:01 PM
wish I woulda known there was gonna be a redesign with more caster adjustment. Thats what I'm hunting for right now d'oh! I've got the plates on and the most I can get out of it is around 2 degrees positive, I even swapped out the carriage bolts for some regular ones to get that little bit at the end of the slot.

I didn't realize that the back side was limiting things until recently.

Bob mentioned it but you never said anything. I welcome the feedback and I will take care of you on it. I will send you a PM so all is made right.

Sorry about any trouble that was something I missed which is unfortunate but it will be fixed.

Are you by chance running 91+ knuckles with an older kframe and control arm setup? If so that might also be taking away some of your caster.

-Rich

rbryant
11-24-2009, 09:06 PM
well if you're doing your alignment on a machine and dont care about marks you could rotate the bolt patten in the strut tower and drill a second set of holes so that the slot would go towards the rear of the car...



No need to get so crazy with things. Apparently the back side of the plate is the limiter. The new plates will be smaller to avoid this.

In the meantime the best bet would be to hack some material off from the back side of the plates such that the top slot is open ended. It will still be strong and it has two other mounting holes to help it.

-Rich

Vigo
11-24-2009, 09:54 PM
No need to get so crazy with things.

Disavow my whole life strategy why dont ya...:p