Any intrest in direct fit camber plates?

[Reaper1]

I didn't realize that the back side was limiting things until recently.

Bob mentioned it but you never said anything. I welcome the feedback and I will take care of you on it. I will send you a PM so all is made right.

Sorry about any trouble that was something I missed which is unfortunate but it will be fixed.

Are you by chance running 91+ knuckles with an older kframe and control arm setup? If so that might also be taking away some of your caster.

-Rich

Rich, if I understand what Chris Still has told me, and what I've personally observed with my own car, the newer stuff installed on the older cars(specifically the control arms) would actually increase positive caster, which is what we're after. Of course the issue with this is that the wheels are no longer centered in the wheel wells and, as in my case, can cause interference issues with the wheel well and the tire.

If using the older a-arms this isn't an issue, however the caster is then back to square one.

[rbryant]

Rich, if I understand what Chris Still has told me, and what I've personally observed with my own car, the newer stuff installed on the older cars(specifically the control arms) would actually increase positive caster, which is what we're after. Of course the issue with this is that the wheels are no longer centered in the wheel wells and, as in my case, can cause interference issues with the wheel well and the tire.

If using the older a-arms this isn't an issue, however the caster is then back to square one.

The newer a-arms definitely move the ball joint forward by around .75" to 1" from what I measured a while back in a fairly imprecise manner. There is some debate on whether or not the newer knuckles move it back some of the way.

If the newer knuckles move it back some then newer knuckles on the older a-arms would be bad because it would decrease the caster. I will get some dual pivot arms and check it out. I should probably also get a knuckle and verify if they change the caster or not.

I know on my GLHS the stock sized tires are VERY close to the fender extensions. I may have to get some 89 dual pivot stamped arms to fix that issue. The plates should help some but it is harder to adjust caster than camber.

In the new non lbody design the caster is always stock or more positive. If I don't set them up that way it is hard to get much positive camber adjustment out of them because they hit the shock tower first. My first set favored positive caster in the slots but unfortunately it hit the strut tower on some cars just before stock. :( I swear the older cars must have smaller towers than the 90s cars I used for mockup or something... I will try to verify this weekend. (and look for some stamped dual pivot arms)

-Rich

[turboz523]

on my 89 c/s I just swapped the 91+ spindles last week and I compared the 89's to the 91's. The spot where the ball joint attaches is about 3/4" down and 1/4 to 1/2" out on the 91's compared to the 89's, but both are perfectly centered going down the spindle. Took a ruler and measure down the center and the 2 are identical so caster is unchanged between the 2. Camber on the other hand is changed, I had the camber plates already on the car and set @3*, putting the spindles on took it to around 4* so I had to adj. the plates back out to bring it back to 3*. The 91 spindles drop the control arm down 3/4" to help my control arms that were just slightly angled up. They're level now, if I could find someone to make me some ball joint extenders, that would help even more. Next week I'll be bolting on the 91+ control arms to see if the wheel hits or not.

[Vigo]

Camber on the other hand is changed, I had the camber plates already on the car and set @3*, putting the spindles on took it to around 4* so I had to adj. the plates back out to bring it back to 3*.

Are you trying to keep the setting between the spindle and strut the same somehow to make this statement?

Also, even if there is no difference in the steering axis of the spindles themselves, if the the cast arms move the bottom point forward and the upper strut mount remains the same, the caster angle will change.. for the better! :p

I wish our ball joints just bolted to the arm like a Nissan or something so we could just put a spacer under it :eyebrows:

[rbryant]

on my 89 c/s I just swapped the 91+ spindles last week and I compared the 89's to the 91's. The spot where the ball joint attaches is about 3/4" down and 1/4 to 1/2" out on the 91's compared to the 89's, but both are perfectly centered going down the spindle. Took a ruler and measure down the center and the 2 are identical so caster is unchanged between the 2. Camber on the other hand is changed, I had the camber plates already on the car and set @3*, putting the spindles on took it to around 4* so I had to adj. the plates back out to bring it back to 3*. The 91 spindles drop the control arm down 3/4" to help my control arms that were just slightly angled up. They're level now, if I could find someone to make me some ball joint extenders, that would help even more. Next week I'll be bolting on the 91+ control arms to see if the wheel hits or not.

I can have ball joints made that extend things by an inch or more and bolt in as replacements. They would only be $150 a set but unfortunately I would need to make 25 sets. :(

It is a great solution but there just isn't enough demand.

-Rich

[turboz523]

Also, even if there is no difference in the steering axis of the spindles themselves, if the the cast arms move the bottom point forward and the upper strut mount remains the same, the caster angle will change.. for the better!

Thats what I'm hoping, however, I have to wait and see if I have enough clearance with the front fender. Even with all the stuff I'm doing, I'm sure I won't be able to get anywhere close to what the new mustangs and vw's have. They have 7-8* from the factory.

[Vigo]

True.. if you are running full size diameter tires you run out of clearance at the front of the fender before you run out of things to modify for more angle. I put 91 arms on an 87 csx recently and i dont think i could put any more caster in by moving the bottom.. would have to do it on top with some sweet Rbryant plates :D

On car like my aries (which as the cast arms) i am lucky because i was able to trim the inside of the fender AND bend the bottom out away from the body without butchering the looks or anything.. not possible on a car with ground effects :(

[Reaper1]

I wish our ball joints just bolted to the arm like a Nissan or something so we could just put a spacer under it :eyebrows:

That wouldn't help. The actual pivot point has to move down. This means that the shaft has to be longer coming out of the joint.


True.. if you are running full size diameter tires you run out of clearance at the front of the fender before you run out of things to modify for more angle. I put 91 arms on an 87 csx recently and i dont think i could put any more caster in by moving the bottom.. would have to do it on top with some sweet Rbryant plates :D

On car like my aries (which as the cast arms) i am lucky because i was able to trim the inside of the fender AND bend the bottom out away from the body without butchering the looks or anything.. not possible on a car with ground effects :(

I'm actually kind of planning on pushing the bottom part of my nose in front of the tires out a bit using custom brackets for the lower part of the fenders on my car. This will help with the clearance thing(which shouldn't be an issue after I swap back to the stamped arms...already on the K-frame, just have to install), but it will also help aerodynamics by diverting more air around the tire than hitting it. Spinning tires create all kinds of aerodynamic havoc!

[Vigo]

That wouldn't help.

It would help with camber loss through the compression travel if the arms were pointing up. It would also change the angle of the steering axis, which would alter the scrub radius, and affect the roll center somewhat (raise it very slightly). Granted it would be incremental and wouldnt do near as much as lowering the pivot point, but im the kinda guy who would definitely stack some nuts under his ball joint and probably wouldnt spend $100 on a fancy ball joint. Im also the guy who would make a spacer for the top of the ball joint rather than the bottom on our setup cuz ours doesnt bolt in, AND that DOES lower the pivot point.

Really, its no different then offset bushings at the inboard control arm pivot, or ball joint spacers for the bottom of the joint sold for other cars.. it wouldnt do as much for roll center as moving the actual outer pivot down, but it wouldnt be totally pointless either.

[rbryant]

but im the kinda guy who would definitely stack some nuts under his ball joint and probably wouldnt spend $100 on a fancy ball joint. Im also the guy who would make a spacer for the top of the ball joint rather than the bottom on our setup cuz ours doesnt bolt in, AND that DOES lower the pivot point.


For our setup making a spacer on top of the ball joint will cost you more than $50 per side (more than $100 total) so I don't see why you are dissing the special balljoint. Our best option is a spherical bearing in a housing that goes in like a stock joint.

-Rich

[Vigo]

Well, my implication is that i can make a spacer, while i can't make a special ball joint. I dont think it would take me $100 to come up with spacers, unless you count what my time is worth :p

For the record, i agree that the sherical bearing with a bolt through it is a better idea than some low-production high dollar ball joints that noone will ever see again after the first group buy. That's probably why its already been done.. but getting it into a stock control arm so its easily repeatable would be a neat trick, because the marketability of it depends on being able to use the stock arm..because if you trust yourself to modify the control arm to mount up some custom thing and have it not break.. you'd also by extension trust yourself to just weld another chunk of metal on the bottom of the spindle and stick the ball joint stud into it instead of messing with the arm in the first place :p

[rbryant]

Well, my implication is that i can make a spacer, while i can't make a special ball joint. I dont think it would take me $100 to come up with spacers, unless you count what my time is worth :p

For the record, i agree that the sherical bearing with a bolt through it is a better idea than some low-production high dollar ball joints that noone will ever see again after the first group buy. That's probably why its already been done.. but getting it into a stock control arm so its easily repeatable would be a neat trick, because the marketability of it depends on being able to use the stock arm..because if you trust yourself to modify the control arm to mount up some custom thing and have it not break.. you'd also by extension trust yourself to just weld another chunk of metal on the bottom of the spindle and stick the ball joint stud into it instead of messing with the arm in the first place :p

Welding to cast iron is a bad idea especially in a critical area like what holds the ball joint on so I don't trust anyone to do it.

-Rich

[Vigo]

Well i have lots of bad ideas, and my own threads to dump them in too, dont i ;) Switching to lurker mode. Keep up the good work.:thumb:

[gkabbt]

Guys,

I got Rich's camber plates yesterday and all I can say is WOW.
Rich and Bruce did great work on these.....they really are a work of art.
Do yourselves a favor and get a pair.....If nothing else, just to admire LOL.

I am busy on other things, working on the underside from back to front,
for the Land Speed Rampage and will probably not install these until the
January timeframe.

C Ya,
Gregg

[168glhs1986]

Normally I don't mind reading more but it's late and maybe you can sum it up for me.

How much negative camber can I expect on an L Body Omni with coilovers? I am able to get -1.5 degrees out of my stock setup.

How much are they?

Thanks. Mike

[rbryant]

Normally I don't mind reading more but it's late and maybe you can sum it up for me.

How much negative camber can I expect on an L Body Omni with coilovers? I am able to get -1.5 degrees out of my stock setup.

How much are they?

Thanks. Mike

It is hard to measure the adjustment in degrees because it varies based on the ride height of the car. What I can say is that the strut rod can be moved up to 1.25" toward the center of the car.

Given that our cars are somewhere around 24" (between 20 and 26 for sure) from the strut hat to the hub moving the center of the strut top inward by 1.25" should allow for an additional 3 degrees of camber. Lowering the car further actually gives you more camber the range is likely between 2.5 degrees and 3.5 degrees depending on the car (and if the spring hits the strut tower).

Here is a picture of my plate sitting on top of the stock strut hat.
19011

The caster is more limited but can move .5" backward which adds a degree or so over stock.

Same picture showing caster.
19012

The Revised GJKHP plates should allow for about 1" of caster adjustment with the same 1.25" of camber adjustment. They give the option of more caster adjustment because the adjuster is below the plate and the bolt pattern is actually more friendly for moving the bearing backward because the bolt holes are on each side of it. This assumes that I only allow for adjustments that are either stock or more positive caster and it isn't limited by the strut tower...

Here is a sneak preview:

Max:
19013



-Rich

[cordes]

I may end up breaking down and putting a set of these in my 600. Nice work Rich.

[johnl]

Received mine. Nice work Rich.

[badandy]

Salivating

[2.216VTurbo]

If I can get the body parts all bolted back on the Rampage tomorrow, I'm gonna install the Camber plates (and hopefully get tot the post office now that the out-the-door-holiday lines have subsided Rich:o Still have that box to send you).

I just spent 20 minutes speed reading the entire thread to get a grasp on the caster settings. I didn't see any hard a fast number for the caster but I believe the take away message was "get as much positive caster as the plates will allow" right Rich? if the alignment shop cant fit me in Tuesday after work I'll be getting the string and jackstands out:o Rampage won't be the fastest car on the track in Vegas but any improvements I can make will help beat a few cars at least.

[rbryant]

If I can get the body parts all bolted back on the Rampage tomorrow, I'm gonna install the Camber plates (and hopefully get tot the post office now that the out-the-door-holiday lines have subsided Rich:o Still have that box to send you).

I just spent 20 minutes speed reading the entire thread to get a grasp on the caster settings. I didn't see any hard a fast number for the caster but I believe the take away message was "get as much positive caster as the plates will allow" right Rich? if the alignment shop cant fit me in Tuesday after work I'll be getting the string and jackstands out:o Rampage won't be the fastest car on the track in Vegas but any improvements I can make will help beat a few cars at least.

Just move them as far back as possible. You should be able to get 1.5 degrees more than stock. Newer cars come with 4-5 degrees from the factory where ours were much less than that.

More caster increases steering effort but will help dynamic camber and straight line stability. With an lbody and power steering the extra steering effort won't be noticed.

-Rich

[2.216VTurbo]

OK, cool. got everything done today ecept the plates. Needed to have the car to the glass shop by 5 for new windshield that is a MUST because the 25 YO one is trashed. Plates are gonna depend on if the alignment guy can fit me in on Wednesday. Fingers crossed;) I'll just move the strut all the way back in the plate then.:thumb: New plates look superb by the way!

[168glhs1986]

Lowering the car further actually gives you more camber the range is likely between 2.5 degrees and 3.5 degrees depending on the car (and if the spring hits the strut tower).

So with my 7" springs up front I should be good for -2.5 +.

Anyone install these on an L body setup for -2 camber +?

Do you have another set in stock?

Thanks.

[rbryant]

So with my 7" springs up front I should be good for -2.5 +.

Anyone install these on an L body setup for -2 camber +?

Do you have another set in stock?

Thanks.

Yes I do have one more lbody set in stock. I should also be able to get the revised gbody plates cut now that we are past the holidays.

I also have my personal set that I could sell if someone needs it before I do.

After that I can make more.

-Rich

[cordes]

OK, cool. got everything done today ecept the plates. Needed to have the car to the glass shop by 5 for new windshield that is a MUST because the 25 YO one is trashed. Plates are gonna depend on if the alignment guy can fit me in on Wednesday. Fingers crossed;) I'll just move the strut all the way back in the plate then.:thumb: New plates look superb by the way!

Alan, if you need it I can tell you how to make a camber gauge which is highly accurate for about $60 and 45min of your time. The only catch is that you will need a flat surface to set the car on.

[Aries_Turbo]

Alan, if you need it I can tell you how to make a camber gauge which is highly accurate for about $60 and 45min of your time. The only catch is that you will need a flat surface to set the car on.

spill the beans! you can always use a level and sticky floor tiles to make a slightly uneven surface level. just pile them up where the tire patches will be.

Brian

[cordes]

spill the beans! you can always use a level and sticky floor tiles to make a slightly uneven surface level. just pile them up where the tire patches will be.

Brian

I got a level from sears which is digital with a magnetic base and has a readout accurate to +/- .1 degree. It is about 14" long or so IIRC. I took that and attached it to a piece of flat 1/8" stock I had lying around. I then drilled two holes so I could put some bolts through. The bolts work so that they are right on the lip of a 14" wheel and on the inside where the wheel wights would be on a 15" wheel.

Once you get the bolts the right length and the level zeroed out you just stick it on the wheel and it will read out your camber to .1*. It works really well for me.

I need to make a stand like I saw on here the other day so I can easily set the toe, or finally get Joy out in the garage to help me measure. It will probably be some time before I pay for another alignment on a TM.

[Aries_Turbo]

hmmm sounds like a good deal. i may pick one of those up.

yeah i usually set toe with strings. a buddy of mine has an 8ft level. :) good for making sure where the car is sitting is level. i think he made plates that you hook 2 measuring tapes through to set the toe. i need a set of those as my friend lives over an hour away from my house.

Brian

[rbryant]

hmmm sounds like a good deal. i may pick one of those up.

yeah i usually set toe with strings. a buddy of mine has an 8ft level. :) good for making sure where the car is sitting is level. i think he made plates that you hook 2 measuring tapes through to set the toe. i need a set of those as my friend lives over an hour away from my house.

Brian

I have a toe alignment tool from harbor freight that seems to work ok for setting toe. It was $20 or so.

-Rich

[turboz523]

I'm spoiled from working at a dealership, we already have a fairly nice alignment rack, by the end of next week we're having an new top of the line aka $19000 alignment machine put is, its gonna make alignments a breeze.

[Aries_Turbo]

I have a toe alignment tool from harbor freight that seems to work ok for setting toe. It was $20 or so.

-Rich

do you have an item/lot number for that tool? i cant seem to find it on the website.

Brian

[rbryant]

do you have an item/lot number for that tool? i cant seem to find it on the website.

Brian

Looks like it might be discontinued. It was item 30167

The retail store website still shows it:

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=30167

-Rich

[cordes]

Looks like it might be discontinued. It was item 30167

The retail store website still shows it:

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=30167

-Rich

Thanks Rich. With one of those I will be set up.

[Aries_Turbo]

http://www.carparts.com/WHEEL-ALIGNMENT-GAUGE/GP_2004040_N__10618.car?zmam=95672150&zmas=17&zmac=100&zmap=10618-2004040

here is another one.

Brian

[rbryant]

http://www.carparts.com/WHEEL-ALIGNMENT-GAUGE/GP_2004040_N__10618.car?zmam=95672150&zmas=17&zmac=100&zmap=10618-2004040

here is another one.

Brian

Yea that is the same thing that I have from harbor freight. I think the harbor freight one was abut $20 but it wasn't the highest quality thing in the world.

-Rich

[rbryant]

The updated GJKHP camber plates are in and back from anodizing. They are a smaller plate that pushes the adjuster backwards so that they greatly increase caster over the initial revision.

I am going to send out the new mounting plates at no charge to customers that ordered the first batch.

I also have them in stock for people that are waiting for a set!

Here are the pictures:

20344

20345

-Rich


-

["Top Fuel" Bender]

I am going to send out the new plates at no charge to customers that ordered the first batch.

-Rich

-

now that's service :nod:

[minigts]

The updated GJKHP camber plates are in and back from anodizing. They are a smaller plate that pushes the adjuster backwards so that they greatly increase caster over the initial revision.

I am going to send out the new plates at no charge to customers that ordered the first batch.

I also have them in stock for people that are waiting for a set!

Here are the pictures:

20344

20345

-Rich


-

Yeah, I think my order must have gotten lost in the mail or something... ;)

[rbryant]

now that's service :nod:

I was paid for something that wasn't quite perfect so I felt it should be fixed. :)

BTW I sent only replacement mounting plates to be used with the previous kits people had bought not an entire new kits.

-Rich

[rbryant]

Yeah, I think my order must have gotten lost in the mail or something... ;)

Your set must have been lost in the same place as the check you mailed to pay for them. ;)

-Rich

[turboz523]

Rich, got my updated plates in the mail today, thanks! That is great service! As soon as I can unbury my Daytona from a few feet of snow, I'll take some current photos, and then put the updated plates in and get a few photos, I have a printout of the alignment w/ the old plates, so I'll put it up on the rack after I switch to see how much more adjustment I can get and I'll post the results for everyone, thanks again!

[minigts]

Your set must have been lost in the same place as the check you mailed to pay for them. ;)

-Rich

LOL Touche my good man!

[LaserDad]

The new G-body plates look really good. Unfortunately, I won't get them on the car until summer. Thanks for not charging us for the upgrade.

[rbryant]

The new G-body plates look really good. Unfortunately, I won't get them on the car until summer. Thanks for not charging us for the upgrade.

No problem. Like I said they should have been that way from the start. :)

Now who else needs a set?

-Rich

[Reaper1]

I do if you wanna donate to a broke engineering student's cause! ;)

[rbryant]

I do if you wanna donate to a broke engineering student's cause! ;)

I am still too negative investment wise on this project to be making donations.

If I sell another 100 sets I will put you down for a free donation.

So get out there and promote them and we will see what happens... ;)

-Rich

[Reaper1]

LOL...you got it! :thumb:

[rbryant]

Look what I finally got in the mail...

My own design of Lbody BC coilovers (using non lbody spindles). I made these from various parts of Neon, VW, etc parts that they had in order to make them the right lengths and connections.

I am going to run 6k (336 lb/in) front and 4k (224 lb/in) rear springs to keep them streetable but they can be ordered in anything up to 12k.

The fronts will also work on the GJKHP cars but I am still working on the GJKHP rear setup.

Fronts:

Notice that the car is lowered by threading the sleeve downward into the hollow spindle mount. This means that no suspension travel is lost as the car is lowered. Conventional shocks lose travel as they are lowered!

In the current picture there is over 2.5" of lowering left before the sleeve will even come out the bottom of the spindle mount!

20907
20908

Rears:

The rears also preserve suspension travel as the sleeve threads into the lower mount.
20909

They will work great with my camber plates as soon as I get a slightly modified bushing set made..... If you are interested in them send me a PM. I need to figure out if it is worth trying to sell them or doing a group buy,etc.

They run $500/pair front or rear including everything pictured (yes even springs). The complete set is $1000 and comes with everything except camber plates.

-Rich

[T-Bohn]

can you tell me more about these shocks?

any and all details you have, links etc.

[rbryant]

can you tell me more about these shocks?

any and all details you have, links etc.

They are the BR series from BC Racing North America. These shocks have proven to work very well on the Neons and SRT4s. I have been working with them to mix and match parts in order to make a setup that works with our cars.

They don't directly offer them for our cars so you have to mix and match parts. For now it is a proprietary mix of parts that only I have(especially the rears which were much harder to figure out). So you won't see our cars in their application list.

http://www.bcracing-na.com/products.php?view=BR_Type

I think I can probably get ER and Inverted shocks by using the same combinations of parts but the BR are better than what 99.9% of us need.

-Rich

[cordes]

I really like the look of these Rich. Thanks for pointing out how they lower the car. I really like how they do that as compared to the Koni stuff.

[zin]

Damn it Rich!! You are going to make me spend more money aren't you?!!;)

These look to be a very well designed units, and the price is very reasonable... A set of these and your camber plates and it's off to the races! (literally!!).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these would pretty much negate any issue of lessoning of suspension travel that may occur with your camber plates mounting the way they do, wouldn't they?

Mike

[rbryant]

Damn it Rich!! You are going to make me spend more money aren't you?!!;)

These look to be a very well designed units, and the price is very reasonable... A set of these and your camber plates and it's off to the races! (literally!!).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these would pretty much negate any issue of lessoning of suspension travel that may occur with your camber plates mounting the way they do, wouldn't they?

Mike

Suspension travel is much less of an issue with these. They really only have 4.5" of total travel but because it is not reduced when lowering that is normal for this type of coilover and works well.

So yes it really isn't a big issue if you reduce the suspension travel (unless you are using a car with horrible suspension travel like a 1G neon).

I changed the lbody plates to max out the travel in the latest design.

The non lbody I left alone because there is less room in the strut tower between the 3 holes and the larger adjuster wouldn't work as well... The non lbody stock spring hat is pretty thick anyway and is comparable to my non lbody camber plate thickness.

-Rich

[Reaper1]

I don't know about you guys, but the way my car sits, the lowest point of the car(the front pivot mount for the a-arms on the K-frame) only has around 3" before hitting the ground anyways, so 2.25" of upward travel(the car moving toward the ground) is fine. The trick is that you have to have a spring rate that prevents bottoming of the car and the damper. Based on some rough calculations for my 3115# Daytona, 400lb/in springs are needed to accomplish this. I have the actual numbers, but that's the ballpark. Of course personal preference and how the car is actually set-up is key in choosing the correct spring rates.

The thing I like the most about this new set-up is that car ride height is independent of spring pre-load and therefore corner weight(to a point). That's a very nice thing!

For those that don't know: keep in mind to watch how much you lower your car. There is such a thing as too low! If the A-arms go much past horizontal as you lower the car, you can seriously mess up the way the car handles!! In my personal experience, you don't want to lower these cars much more than 1.5" from stock. After that things start to get ugly without some radical surgery to the suspension.

[rbryant]

I don't know about you guys, but the way my car sits, the lowest point of the car(the front pivot mount for the a-arms on the K-frame) only has around 3" before hitting the ground anyways, so 2.25" of upward travel(the car moving toward the ground) is fine. The trick is that you have to have a spring rate that prevents bottoming of the car and the damper. Based on some rough calculations for my 3115# Daytona, 400lb/in springs are needed to accomplish this. I have the actual numbers, but that's the ballpark. Of course personal preference and how the car is actually set-up is key in choosing the correct spring rates.

The thing I like the most about this new set-up is that car ride height is independent of spring pre-load and therefore corner weight(to a point). That's a very nice thing!

For those that don't know: keep in mind to watch how much you lower your car. There is such a thing as too low! If the A-arms go much past horizontal as you lower the car, you can seriously mess up the way the car handles!! In my personal experience, you don't want to lower these cars much more than 1.5" from stock. After that things start to get ugly without some radical surgery to the suspension.

Good post. :thumb:

I only went with the 6k (336in/lb) springs on the lbody to keep it reasonable on the street but that seems about right given the fact that it is lighter than a daytona. The other thing to consider is that the stiffer you make the strut the less likely it is to bottom out even with the softer springs.

So it sounds like an 8k front 6k rear setup would be the ticket for the heaver cars either way though.

If you get a chance can you PM me your calculations? Automotive math always intrigues me.

-Rich

[Reaper1]

Good post. :thumb:

I only went with the 6k (336in/lb) springs on the lbody to keep it reasonable on the street but that seems about right given the fact that it is lighter than a daytona. The other thing to consider is that the stiffer you make the strut the less likely it is to bottom out even with the softer springs.

So it sounds like an 8k front 6k rear setup would be the ticket for the heaver cars either way though.

If you get a chance can you PM me your calculations? Automotive math always intrigues me.

-Rich

I'll be happy to share my info! I gotta dig it out, but I have it. I'm using a very well known book that we used in my Vehicle Dynamics class here at school to figure this stuff out. While not a focused chassis set-up book, it does get in depth and specific enough for our purposes, IMHO. The rear suspension is the only place where it gets a little vague do to the way it's designed, but it gives you enough information that you can make educated assumptions and such to give good enough values. After the "rough" calculations it's pretty much down to dynamic tuning of the car on the street and track anyway. You can't do ALL of it on paper (as much as we engineers would like that to be the case! LOL)

[TurboII]

whole crap i'm loving this...i would love to do a coil over setup on my baron...

[rbryant]

Some people have contacted me asking for camber plates that don't require cutting.

While cutting is optional on the lbodys it has been required on the non lbodys due to the small strut tower hole. I started thinking about it and came up with this:

21306

It uses recessed flat bolts on the top to attach the adjusters and has two settings depending on the holes used and rotation of the adjuster:

Stock (centered)
Negative (.625" or roughly 1.5 degrees depending on ride height)

Fine tuned adjustments would have to be made using the stock camber bolts and slotted struts but it doesn't require cutting on the towers. This is also advantageous if your racing class prohibits cutting of the towers.

Additionally they have the same caster adjustment as the regular plates.

If you are interested in these let me know and I can have some of them made.

-Rich

[rbryant]

I had a couple of sets of the GJKHP plates that don't require any shock tower cutting cut. I will have them available on the website shortly. I just have to machine the countersink holes and take some pictures.

This gives people that want to be able to return their cars to stock with a camber plate option.

They aren't anodized yet and considering that they are mostly hidden it might make more sense to just paint them to keep costs low.

-Rich

[rbryant]

Here is a picture of the new GJKHP plates that are fully bolt on and require not cutting.

In order to accomplish this I used flat top bolts which are level with the tops of the plates. They have 4 camber settings (max negative, slightly negative, slightly positive, and max positive)

I imagine that the max positive would never be used but it comes for free with the others.

They retain the caster adjustment so about an additional degree of camber and caster are available (limited by the center hole in the shock tower). One of the main advantages however is that they remove the flex of the rubber bushings just like the original design does and the car can be returned to stock with no issues.

They aren't annodized yet but given that they are not a sliding assembly simple spray paint should work well for these.

They are available now if people don't care about anodizing them I can offer them for $240 plus $15 shipping.

Here is the picture:
22507


Thanks,

Rich

[minigts]

Time for you to buy another project car then you can use them. ;)

Thanks for the compliment. I made some mistakes along the way but I think we are in good shape now and have a very good product. I learned a lot during the process.

Bruce "Top Fuel" Bender and Luzader Machine also deserve credit for doing a good job with the machine work. Everything in this run was machined from within the turbo-mopar.com family.

-Rich

Looks like I have another project now Rich. ;) I MAY get a set before SDAC, but just depends on what happens with the insurance claim, time-wise that is. As soon as I get it settled, I'm getting a set of the plates. The new sets come with the round ring and the rest of the camber plates, correct?

[rbryant]

Looks like I have another project now Rich. ;) I MAY get a set before SDAC, but just depends on what happens with the insurance claim, time-wise that is. As soon as I get it settled, I'm getting a set of the plates. The new sets come with the round ring and the rest of the camber plates, correct?

Yes the lbody plates come with the steel top rings.

They are really for people that cut the towers. I include the steel rings with all sets but they are optional unless you cut the towers.

I think I have 3 sets of the lbody plates left in stock. Sales are slowing on them so after these are gone I might need to do a group buy on the next run.

-Rich

[OmniLuvr]

so im looking for a pick of everything i would get with the l-body camber plate kit, and a price, i guess im to lazy to figure it out my self.

[rbryant]

For the lbody You get:

Top Plate
Adjuster (with bearing)
Bushings for fitting the strut into the bearing.
Indicator Washers
Adjuster Bolts with fender and lock washers.
Carriage bolts, washers, and self locking nuts to bolt the plates to the car
Reinforcing rings for the top side of the tower (for use when cutting the towers but I always include them)

For the Gbody you get everything except the reinforcing rings.


I will take a picture of an assembled unit tonight.

-Rich

["Top Fuel" Bender]

so im looking for a pick of everything i would get with the l-body camber plate kit, and a price, i guess im to lazy to figure it out my self.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=584049&postcount=207

strut, spring and inner fender not included:thumb:

[OmniLuvr]

thanks rich, that helps alot (and is that an accurate price for the plates?), and bender, i had no idea that picture was on here? so thanks :)

one more thing rich, these are designed to use the stock l-body struts right? i dont really want to use the the stock l-body ones becuase i have the 91 lebaron spindles and big brakes, and dont want to have to modify spindles to work with struts. so since i have coil over sleeves already, can i use lebaron/daytona struts with sleeves or are they to short? or is the threads on top of the strut 2 short?

[rbryant]

thanks rich, that helps alot (and is that an accurate price for the plates?), and bender, i had no idea that picture was on here? so thanks :)

one more thing rich, these are designed to use the stock l-body struts right? i dont really want to use the the stock l-body ones becuase i have the 91 lebaron spindles and big brakes, and dont want to have to modify spindles to work with struts. so since i have coil over sleeves already, can i use lebaron/daytona struts with sleeves or are they to short? or is the threads on top of the strut 2 short?

The most up to date ordering info is always here:

http://rbryant.freeshell.org/suspension_products.htm

As for running daytona struts that is no problem. I designed the setup with that option in mind. I was actually running daytona struts and knuckles on my GLHS when ti was last running...

I have bushings that fit on the shaft and extend it so that they connect properly to the plates. The only requirement is that you have to run a full length bumpstop when you use the bushings so that they don't bottom out the strut because of the way they extend the strut shaft.

Just add a note when ordering that you plan on running Daytona struts with the lbody plates and I will include the bushings at no charge.

-Rich

[minigts]

Does anyone have an example of how this is suppose to work with the coil overs? The hat setup I have is different, I think than that of the ones Cindy sold. :( I think I can make it work for the time being, but I REALLY don't want to drive it too long with some weird setup. I'm going to do a test fit, but could someone show a picture of how this is suppose to mount with a hat against the plate please?

[rbryant]

Does anyone have an example of how this is suppose to work with the coil overs? The hat setup I have is different, I think than that of the ones Cindy sold. :( I think I can make it work for the time being, but I REALLY don't want to drive it too long with some weird setup. I'm going to do a test fit, but could someone show a picture of how this is suppose to mount with a hat against the plate please?

What do your spring hats look like?

They just need to contact the bushings such that they don't hit the bottom of the adjuster and you are good to go.

The ones I have usually have lips that extend upward slightly from the top of the hat.

-Rich

[minigts]

Well I can't get a picture now, but the hat top is say 1.5" in diameter and where it should rest against the plate is much smaller. I may be pulling the transmission today (yay....:() so I'll see if I can get a picture and show you. I guess I'll see if Cindy can send me a couple of hats and whatever else is needed this week.

[minigts]

The transmission's fine, but the right hub bearing is going to have to be replaced. :( The axle nut backed off enough to allow some play and now it's making noise. The good thing is, I think I can swap it out without having to get the car aligned again just because I can loosen the bolts on the back and slide it off. The bad news is I have buy a new one. :GRRRRR: I'll post a picture later Rich so you can see what it looks like. There was a little wear on the camber plate from the Ground Control hat, but minimal. I put the lower rubber bushing from the rear suspension between the hat and the plate. I haven't put any stress on it and DON'T PLAN TO, but it's keeping the metals separated. I know it's ghetto, but it's all I can do right now. :$

[rbryant]

Well I can't get a picture now, but the hat top is say 1.5" in diameter and where it should rest against the plate is much smaller. I may be pulling the transmission today (yay....:() so I'll see if I can get a picture and show you. I guess I'll see if Cindy can send me a couple of hats and whatever else is needed this week.

If it is smaller against the plate then it should work just fine.

The top of the hat should sit directly against the bottom bushing. As long as the top of the plate isn't completely flat and the bearing can pivot it will work fine. Ground control did use a specific type with their camber plates that might not work but a generic hat should. I have seen top hats on ebay for $15 a pair or so if you really need a different set. GC can also sell you a hat that works. If you look for the thread that Badandy posted with my plates you can see how those work.

Here is the picture from his thread:
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/0401000746.jpg

Those are daytona plates but the concept is the same.

Here is a picture with the lbody plates before they were coated This was also before I integrated the steel washer into the bottom bushing but it is the same exact shape:
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18719&d=1258440995

-Rich

[minigts]

If it is smaller against the plate then it should work just fine.

The top of the hat should sit directly against the bottom bushing. As long as the top of the plate isn't completely flat and the bearing can pivot it will work fine. Ground control did use a specific type with their camber plates that might not work but a generic hat should. I have seen top hats on ebay for $15 a pair or so if you really need a different set. GC can also sell you a hat that works. If you look for the thread that Badandy posted with my plates you can see how those work.

Here is the picture from his thread:
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/0401000746.jpg

-Rich

Yeah, the top diameter of the hat on THOSE would fit INSIDE the top of mine. Mine has a wider opening with washers and a bearing in between to allow the hat rotation. I'm out of time so I'll have to get the stuff this week if I'm lucky, put them on the car and then take the car to get it aligned. If I can get them from Cindy and do that, I will. Thanks for the photo and I'll post when I get my memory card reader.

[rbryant]

Yeah, the top diameter of the hat on THOSE would fit INSIDE the top of mine. Mine has a wider opening with washers and a bearing in between to allow the hat rotation. I'm out of time so I'll have to get the stuff this week if I'm lucky, put them on the car and then take the car to get it aligned. If I can get them from Cindy and do that, I will. Thanks for the photo and I'll post when I get my memory card reader.

This guy always seems to have them cheap:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Conical-Upper-Hats-use-2-5-ID-Coilover-Springs-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem58848d6389QQitemZ38018 0980617QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

$20 shipped is a good deal.

-Rich

[minigts]

Thanks Rich. I'm checking with FWDP to see if they have some in stock and can ship them out tomorrow. I think I could get these, but I probably wouldn't get them before Thursday. If they are out of stock, I'll order from this guy.

[rbryant]

Thanks Rich. I'm checking with FWDP to see if they have some in stock and can ship them out tomorrow. I think I could get these, but I probably wouldn't get them before Thursday. If they are out of stock, I'll order from this guy.

Sounds good. It is always good to stick with our vendors first. :)

-Rich

[minigts]

Here are the GC hats. Their plates have an area where that top piece rest in. It's metal to metal, but with the bearings under that piece, it alleviates any resistance.

The marks on the Konis are just dirt and grime, not gouging.

[rbryant]

Here are the GC hats. Their plates have an area where that top piece rest in. It's metal to metal, but with the bearings under that piece, it alleviates any resistance.

The marks on the Konis are just dirt and grime, not gouging.

I have a set of GC SRT4 plates that I got a while back but they are missing those top hats w/ the bearing piece so if you don't use them let me know....

Of course you probably want to sell them with your universal old kit so you can recoup some of the cost of the direct fit plates. :)

-Rich

[minigts]

I have a set of GC SRT4 plates that I got a while back but they are missing those top hats w/ the bearing piece so if you don't use them let me know....

Of course you probably want to sell them with your universal old kit so you can recoup some of the cost of the direct fit plates. :)

-Rich

Rich if I were selling these things I would gladly send you the parts you need, but I intend to keep them for my blue car. Cindy called me yesterday and she is going to see if they have anything at the shop they can send. If not, I'll have to order the ones from that guy. I just hope I will be able to get the stuff by Wednesday. :)

[168glhs1986]

Just bought a set of 1st run L body plates from a member here. He bought them back in 8/09 but never got around to installing them.

Could you tell me what mods to my 86 GLHS have to be made (if any).

I have Koni Coilovers with 7" eibach springs.

Thanks.

[rbryant]

Just bought a set of 1st run L body plates from a member here. He bought them back in 8/09 but never got around to installing them.

Could you tell me what mods to my 86 GLHS have to be made (if any).

I have Koni Coilovers with 7" eibach springs.

Thanks.

Send me some pictures in a PM and I will let you know so that I can confirm that everything is there. Everything is probably there I just can't say for sure until I see what you have exactly. I wouldn't want to say it would work when something got accidentally lost in the transfer, etc.

They shouldn't need anything except coilovers in order to bolt on.

-Rich