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dodgeshadowchik
06-26-2008, 08:59 PM
Hey all you 2.4L guys!

I'm planning on a 2.4L swap with the blue shadow I have. It was brought up at SDAC that parts for the older TD transmissions are getting harder to find. So I was thinking of just using the NV-T850.... however I know its hydraulic so I'd have to figure out how/where to mount the master and slave cylinders. My other question would be could I still use the shadow shifter or would I have to somehow get the neon's shifter to work?

I really don't know much about that trans other than that it's pretty strong. If anyone could point me in a direction that would be cool! Heck, for all I know the thing may not even fit!

Thanks!

t3rse
06-26-2008, 09:26 PM
it will fit, but it isn't fun from what i understand. the shifters are pretty close, so it could be made to work, but mounting a master for the clutch will be a pita. i used a 568...it is supposedly stronger anyways.

the downside to using a 568 with an srt 2.4 is that the srt has raised oil drain ports in the rear, and the nvt mounts the starter up front, so you have do some grinding on both the block and starter to make it fit, and the oil drain is very much in the way, so it needs to be moved, or do like i did and shorten it a lot and the silicone will just barely clear with a tiny bend, but no so much to kink it. and of course, you'll have to make custom mounts...

dodgeshadowchik
06-26-2008, 09:31 PM
Yea, the 568 is my other choice if the 850 doesn't work. Thanks for the tidbit there!

BadAssPerformance
06-26-2008, 09:38 PM
It was a toss up between T850 and A568 for me. I mostly went A568 cuz the gears are a little longer and the T850 has some high RPM shifting issues.

dodgeshadowchik
06-26-2008, 09:47 PM
K. I guess I'm scared of blowing that 568 and not being able to get another one!

crazymadbastard
06-26-2008, 09:50 PM
K. I guess I'm scared of blowing that 568 and not being able to get another one!

meh if you blow it up (will need over 500hp) a568s are $6,000 a dozen.:lol:

cordes
06-26-2008, 09:58 PM
You could always run a 3.77? FD 523. They are nearly as stout as a 568. I believe one of the Ramsdels posted pics of both gear sets and they look pretty beefy.

rbryant
06-27-2008, 02:35 AM
it will fit, but it isn't fun from what i understand. the shifters are pretty close, so it could be made to work, but mounting a master for the clutch will be a pita. i used a 568...it is supposedly stronger anyways.

the downside to using a 568 with an srt 2.4 is that the srt has raised oil drain ports in the rear, and the nvt mounts the starter up front, so you have do some grinding on both the block and starter to make it fit, and the oil drain is very much in the way, so it needs to be moved, or do like i did and shorten it a lot and the silicone will just barely clear with a tiny bend, but no so much to kink it. and of course, you'll have to make custom mounts...

Do you have any pictures of this?

I have the SRT block and I thought the drainback looked very tight... Perhaps I will just tap and plug it and then go with a drainback line to the oilpan.

Is there any chance that you have a picture that illustrates the grinding on the starter and block?

My 568 already has an OBX and 3.77 gears so swapping to a T850 or built up cable operated 350/578 seems like a waste.

Plus I just had the custom dust sheilds made for using the 568 with the 2.4 engine.

Thanks,

Rich

Ondonti
06-27-2008, 03:17 AM
It was a toss up between T850 and A568 for me. I mostly went A568 cuz the gears are a little longer and the T850 has some high RPM shifting issues.

Yeah what is up with those shifting issues. Local 600hp srt-4 here cant improve on his low 11's (ran almost same times when modified stage 3) because he cant shift above 6300 rpms or something like that. His solution is a lighter twin disc clutch.


Ive never heard such a problem with our older transmissions, and I am pretty sure people have shifted well north of 7k in them. I know if I was building a 2.4L I would be taxing that high RPM power.

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 08:15 AM
The high rpm shifting issues are because the T850 is based on a european diesel minivan trans. How many diesel engines need to shift past 3k rpm?

dodgeshadowchik
06-27-2008, 11:34 AM
Thanks, I think my mind was just made up! I'm going to stick with the 568.

WickedShelby88
06-27-2008, 11:58 AM
The high rpm shifting issues are because the T850 is based on a european diesel minivan trans. How many diesel engines need to shift past 3k rpm?

LMAO, what the heck were the daimler fools thinking.. Selling a car like that with a trans based on that engineering.. I vote 568 all the way.

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 12:42 PM
Thanks, I think my mind was just made up! I'm going to stick with the 568.

You just wanna be like JT ;)

dodgeshadowchik
06-27-2008, 01:32 PM
That may be.... :p

rbryant
06-27-2008, 01:34 PM
I haven't weighed a T850 myself and don't have any way to verify it but I have seen several people mention that they weigh nearly 200lbs....

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f213/nvg-t850-srt-4-trans-taken-apart-pics-add-your-pics-today-172449/

Doesn't the 568 weigh more like 100lbs or less? The following post gives a shipping weight of 110!

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=55472&postcount=29

My OBX was 6lbs heavier than a 2 pinion diff but probbaly even less of a difference from the the 4 pinion diff....

That alone is a pretty good reason not to use the T850. 100lbs is a pretty serious difference!

-Rich

dodgeshadowchik
06-27-2008, 01:38 PM
holy crap! That's like the dsm trans. The Talon's manual trans is on heavy SOB.
Thanks again guys for all the info. I find that both have pros and cons.... but it seems the older TD transmissions are looking like better options.

dodgeshadowchik
06-28-2008, 08:32 PM
the downside to using a 568 with an srt 2.4 is that the srt has raised oil drain ports in the rear, and the nvt mounts the starter up front, so you have do some grinding on both the block and starter to make it fit, and the oil drain is very much in the way, so it needs to be moved, or do like i did and shorten it a lot and the silicone will just barely clear with a tiny bend, but no so much to kink it. and of course, you'll have to make custom mounts...

Do you have any pics of this clearance issue. I haven't got my motor or trans, I my just build a 2.4l if the drain and feed lines in a problem

t3rse
06-29-2008, 09:00 PM
I'll see if I can find some pics. All I can say is that it wasn't very fun....

DSM manual is just under 150#, 568 is around 120#.

dodgeshadowchik
06-30-2008, 09:33 AM
cool, thanks!

t3rse
07-02-2008, 10:11 AM
Sorry folks. No pics. I don't see myself getting motivated to pull the starter out to snap pics, but if something happens or if I cook it (which I probably will shortly) I'll make sure to take some.

88_pacifica
07-02-2008, 10:49 AM
Sorry folks....

I laugh everytime I see or hear that line. It reminds me of the National Lampoons Vacation where John Candy is at Wally World and denying Chevy chase access to the park... ;)

"Sorry folks... The park is closed for 2 weeks for renovation. The moose out front should have told you..."

dodgeshadowchik
07-02-2008, 12:37 PM
that's ok. I saw an auction on ebay for soem srt4 blocks.... and i can see what you mean about the drainback line.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-SRT-4-Engine-Block_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33613QQihZ011QQit emZ320268342411QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

t3rse
07-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Well folks...you may be in luck (that I'm out of). I just realized that I forgot to add EGT provisions to the manifold and the only way to fit a drill in there is to yank the starter, so you may end up getting pics after all.

CSXRT4
07-04-2008, 12:59 PM
I actually just got done grinding a notch out on my block, I can take some pics when I find my camera. But like t3rse said, the drainback is a pain :(

You can get 2 different starters that I know of, one is an "orbital gear reduction" starter and the other is a gear reduction with the motor on the side. Ill see if I can dig up the part numbers later. I chose to use the latter, not because its smaller (its actually about the same size) but it requires less grinding off the block. You just have to make a notch in the drain back area of the block and grind a tiny bit off the starter to clear the oil port where the oil pressure switch normally goes.

Another tidbit, you can still fit the "L" bracket that bolts to the bottom of the O2 housing but the other turbo support bracket has to go (it could probably be made to fit but you really dont need it). Also the oil feed and water return lines will fit but the water feed from the block is right where the starter goes so you can ditch the oil cooler and lines and use its coolant port at the passenger side of the block.

t3rse
07-05-2008, 12:28 PM
Get some 3/8 npt flush plugs for those ports behind the starter (comment not directed at anyone in particular). I ground a little off the block and took a bit off one of the bolts on the starter that holds the motor on so I may have a different starter. My turbo oil return is about 3/4" now to clear.

rbryant
07-07-2008, 02:09 AM
Pics would be good. Grinding the block is a little scary in my case since it doesn't need a rebuild and I don't want to go through the drainback passage and then have to tear the whole thing down and have it welded.

I would rather mod starters than the block if possible!

I have my engine on the stand but it might be time to drop it on the floor and test fit the tranny/starter....

-Rich

t3rse
07-07-2008, 02:11 AM
you don't have to remove much...

t3rse
07-17-2008, 10:03 PM
Crappy pic but:

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/startMods.jpg

You can see how little I ground off, but the return tube is cut down quite a bit. I may have to change that up a little. On the starter, I ground the top bolt that holds it together flat.

rbryant
07-18-2008, 03:26 AM
Thanks for the pic.

How thick is the wall on the return tube? My engine is assembled so I can't look at it to know how much is safe to take off... Is it in the neighborhood of 1/8"? or am I way off? It looks like you took that much or more off from the picture.

-Rich

t3rse
07-19-2008, 02:30 AM
It is pretty thick. I don't think I took off quite an 1/8. I basically ground on the block until it was all I could handle and then I started on the starter, which turned out to only be the top bolt.

rbryant
07-19-2008, 07:03 PM
It is pretty thick. I don't think I took off quite an 1/8. I basically ground on the block until it was all I could handle and then I started on the starter, which turned out to only be the top bolt.

Hmm I might tackle it by grinding on the starter first. :)

-Rich

Reaper1
07-20-2008, 11:51 AM
Chrysler used the T850 because they knew it could handle the torque, and then some....unlike the new 6-speed(ask some SVT Focus guys about the reliability of their trans when a good amount of power is pushed through it...).

What's funny to me about the DSM trannies is that, IIRC, they look physically smaller than ours...I know the gears are, and they are only really held on to the block with 4 bolts!!(I'm reffering to the 1st gen...don't know much about the 2nd gen).

Anyways, I think either tranny would work fine, but the 568 would be an easier fit due to mods only having to be done to the engine/tranny area instead of the car and axles and.....you get the idea! LOL

t3rse
07-22-2008, 06:37 PM
I think the 568 is a better unit. The 850 has quite a few problems.

Reaper1
07-23-2008, 02:16 AM
^^See...I keep hearing things like this, but I've never come across any hard evidence to support it. Now, I'll admit that I don't keep up with the SRT-4 crowd much, so I don't know firsthand. However, I WOULD like to know what these issues are and when they are experienced. Also, if there are any trends to what model years are experiencing these issues.

Please, I'd like to know this stuff, as knowledge is power! :thumb:

Speedeuphoria
07-23-2008, 02:36 AM
the t850 was designed for a diesel minivan so thats most of the issue, well I guess more specifically higher rpm shifting can be an issue for some

t3rse
07-23-2008, 09:12 AM
3rd gear syncro's...shift forks...input shafts

just search srtforums for "tranny failure"

given: most of these fools abuse the hell out of their stuff.

looneytuner
07-23-2008, 09:23 AM
use the 850 cause I accidently bought the Quaife for it. Good price.