simplest 16 valve head swap

[bgbmxer]

so first off im ready to do a 16 valve conversion now just need some more info. i have heard that the first gen 2.0 dohc head is the simplest head to swap on. what makes it easier than the second or third gen. i plan on running a custom intake and exhaust so that i can use the stock distibuter and junk. another question is what holes do i gotta plug on the head i would like some more pictures or info on that. also my last question is about injectors and what choices do i have for them i plan for 400 horses in this lbody so i have been told 72pph will do well any info would help and yes i have looked most of this up and not found a whole lot before asking and these are my last questions un answered

[turbovanman²]

The simplest is a TIII head swap, all completely bolt on-the only issue is the intake if you run the distributor-needs moving out, but there hard to find.

There really is no difference with any year DOHC head except the manifold bolt patterns are different but still lots of manifold options available.

There are plenty of links in this section showing pics etc but I am sure someone can post up more.


Good luck, its alot of work but so much fun, I love my 2.5 TIII engine, :clap:

[bgbmxer]

The simplest is a TIII head swap, all completely bolt on-the only issue is the intake if you run the distributor-needs moving out, but there hard to find.

There really is no difference with any year DOHC head except the manifold bolt patterns are different but still lots of manifold options available.

There are plenty of links in this section showing pics etc but I am sure someone can post up more.


Good luck, its alot of work but so much fun, I love my 2.5 TIII engine, :clap:

have heard that the lotus cams are super fragile are the aftermarket ones the same way

[turbovanman²]

have heard that the lotus cams are super fragile are the aftermarket ones the same way

Cams? nope, stock they did tend to go flat but they are easily reground or repaired. The heads do like to crack but 99% are easily fixed. The rockers are fragile but can also be fixed and new lifters are available from FWD. The bottom end is all regular TM stuff.

[bgbmxer]

Cams? nope, stock they did tend to go flat but they are easily reground or repaired. The heads do like to crack but 99% are easily fixed. The rockers are fragile but can also be fixed and new lifters are available from FWD. The bottom end is all regular TM stuff.

cracking? tell me more and yeah my bottom end is gonna be built like a tank gonna do it right the first time but the top end is the problem getting to that 400 horse mark that and tuning and i would like a 16 valve if i want more than 400 horse:hail: and the motor im starting withs a common block 2.5 but im afriaid it will not rev high enough for my light car to be worth while

[bradp]

Maserati is easier, isn't it but more expensive?

[bgbmxer]

Maserati is easier, isn't it but more expensive?

maybe but i know trying to get parts is a royal pain

[turbovanman²]

cracking? tell me more and yeah my bottom end is gonna be built like a tank gonna do it right the first time but the top end is the problem getting to that 400 horse mark that and tuning and i would like a 16 valve if i want more than 400 horse:hail: and the motor im starting withs a common block 2.5 but im afriaid it will not rev high enough for my light car to be worth while

The heads tend to crack between the cam galley but its fixable. I have lighter and stronger rods, its balanced and rev it to 7000 rpm, but I wouldn't recommend it staying there all the time. The heads flow so much and you have alot of power under the curve. If you want a revver, go 2.2L.

This is my buildup if interested-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16425&highlight=TIII


Maserati is easier, isn't it but more expensive?


I think your right but parts are unobtanium and more than the TIII, :(

[bgbmxer]

The heads tend to crack between the cam galley but its fixable. I have lighter and stronger rods, its balanced and rev it to 7000 rpm, but I wouldn't recommend it staying there all the time. The heads flow so much and you have alot of power under the curve. If you want a revver, go 2.2L.

This is my buildup if interested-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16425&highlight=TIII




I think your right but parts are unobtanium and more than the TIII, :(


yeah you cant rebuild a masi since you cant get parts for them and im not sure what i want since the van i bought has a freshly rebuilt 2.5 in it ready to go would just have to swap the head and its good for 300 or so but i think i would like the revs or a 2.2 in a 86 sc

[turbovanman²]

yeah you cant rebuild a masi since you cant get parts for them and im not sure what i want since the van i bought has a freshly rebuilt 2.5 in it ready to go would just have to swap the head and its good for 300 or so but i think i would like the revs or a 2.2 in a 86 sc

If you run a TIII head, you need custom pistons otherwise the compression is too low. Neon head, your fine.

[bgbmxer]

If you run a TIII head, you need custom pistons otherwise the compression is too low. Neon head, your fine.

thought the 2.5 pistons were ok to run with the 16 valve but if i have to change them then im going full forged pistons rods and 4 bolt mains and be done with it. guess i will have to find a lotus head awhile, that should be fun

[2.216VTurbo]

yeah you cant rebuild a masi since you cant get parts for them and im not sure what i want since the van i bought has a freshly rebuilt 2.5 in it ready to go would just have to swap the head and its good for 300 or so but i think i would like the revs or a 2.2 in a 86 sc

Not true, in you can in fact *find* a Masi head to run, all the top end parts are availble now via RDIperformance.com Valves, springs, shims, buckets, guides... And Like Brad P said, it IS THE SIMPLEST 16V head swap:amen:

[turbovanman²]

thought the 2.5 pistons were ok to run with the 16 valve but if i have to change them then im going full forged pistons rods and 4 bolt mains and be done with it. guess i will have to find a lotus head awhile, that should be fun

Nope, the combustion chamber is bigger on a TIII so if you run stock 2.5 pistons, the compression is like 7:1. Cindy has 2.5 TIII pistons on stock.

You will need alot more than a TIII head, you need brackets, pulleys, ps pump and a few other odds and ends. Better off buying a used engine and selling the bottom end to recoup some costs.


Not true, in you can in fact *find* a Masi head to run, all the top end parts are availble now via RDIperformance.com Valves, springs, shims, buckets, guides... And Like Brad P said, it IS THE SIMPLEST 16V head swap:amen:


Why don't you tell us the prices and how much a Masi head is worth, IF you can find one, ;)

[GLHNSLHT2]

heh my post didn't go through. Masi rocks. Gonna need some custom pistions and maybe custom rods. Then just run a 8v Commonblock underneath the head.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Valve Cover Grommets $90
Spark Plug Valley Seals $80
Race springs $145
Buckets $450
Lash Caps $96
Ti Retainers $225
Valve Job - backcut of 30 degrees on intake $275+25 for fuel
Set lash $???
Exhaust guides $72

Now that's for the racing parts and setup :)

[cordes]

I'd be out at the VC grommets. :(

[GLHNSLHT2]

how much to weld the head? add aluminum plugs, replace the followers and lifters and the worn out camshafts? Oh then there's the oil pump/intermediate shaft issues where you could toast the whole motor at a whim? Am I leaving something out?

[turbovanman²]

Valve Cover Grommets $90
Spark Plug Valley Seals $80
Race springs $145
Buckets $450
Lash Caps $96
Ti Retainers $225
Valve Job - backcut of 30 degrees on intake $275+25 for fuel
Set lash $???
Exhaust guides $72

Now that's for the racing parts and setup :)

You've left out the price of a head, cams, manifolds ;) What accessory brackets does it use, 8v or Masi stuff?

TIII-:p

Valve cover gaskets, $60
Valve job $200 ish
Guides-$144 if needed-most likely not.
Updated lifters if you need them-$389
Springs-reuse
Valves-most likely reuse
Valve seals-$49

[turbovanman²]

how much to weld the head? add aluminum plugs, replace the followers and lifters and the worn out camshafts? Oh then there's the oil pump/intermediate shaft issues where you could toast the whole motor at a whim? Am I leaving something out?

Guarantee thats cheaper than buying all the Masi stuff, let alone finding it.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Finding it is easy. A nice phone call or Email to RDIperformance.com and it's done. But like I stated that's for the race parts. I could of re-used my springs/buckets and retainers, lash caps, spark plug valley seals and valve grommets. But I plan to rap this puppy to the moon so I want some light valve train and some new seals.

Well I just picked up a NOS head for $2300. 0 miles complete. Uses regular 8v accesories except for the A/C bracket and a Chevy style A/c compressor.

[cordes]

Finding it is easy. A nice phone call or Email to RDIperformance.com and it's done. But like I stated that's for the race parts. I could of re-used my springs/buckets and retainers, lash caps, spark plug valley seals and valve grommets. But I plan to rap this puppy to the moon so I want some light valve train and some new seals.

Well I just picked up a NOS head for $2300. 0 miles complete. Uses regular 8v accesories except for the A/C bracket and a Chevy style A/c compressor.

When thinking about what other people spend on a motor to make 4-500HP $2300 really isn't bad for a complete top end.

[turbovanman²]

Well I just picked up a NOS head for $2300. 0 miles complete. Uses regular 8v accesories except for the A/C bracket and a Chevy style A/c compressor.


$2300, holy shiat, :wow1:

I don't think I have that in my TIII build, the WHOLE motor, ;)



When thinking about what other people spend on a motor to make 4-500HP $2300 really isn't bad for a complete top end

I would assume and he can correct if I am wrong, that is just a bare head.

[bgbmxer]

how would the masi head be better than the lotus head still i have not seen any performance cams or intake things like that so i was thinking the lotus head would be simpler to meet my goals and since im using a distributer still correct me if im wrong. and i know the pullys and brackets will be a pain in the arse but i wont have ac to mess with just all the other things

[cordes]

$2300, holy shiat, :wow1:

I don't think I have that in my TIII build, the WHOLE motor, ;)




I would assume and he can correct if I am wrong, that is just a bare head.

He said complete. Isn't that about that the complete TIII heads go for NOS?

[turbovanman²]

He said complete. Isn't that about that the complete TIII heads go for NOS?


He just says NOS head, thats why I am guessing its bare.


Can you even find a NOS TIII head????????? Not sure what they go for, never looked, :o

[cordes]

He just says NOS head, thats why I am guessing its bare.


Can you even find a NOS TIII head????????? Not sure what they go for, never looked, :o

I have him quoted as saying thus.

"Well I just picked up a NOS head for $2300. 0 miles complete."

[turbovanman²]

I have him quoted as saying thus.

"Well I just picked up a NOS head for $2300. 0 miles complete."

Maybe I need sleep, like you, :o

[bgbmxer]

so basically i could use either head but the fun stuff is the accesorys is what your saying then

also what pistons and rod would work with the masi head

[bgbmxer]

bump so what do you think the best route to go is masi head or lotus head and why? also is there much of a difference in them i see the masi has a distributer so it that why use sugjest the masi head im still up in the air on this:confused:

[ShelGame]

Very different. The biggest, IMO, is the valvetrain. The Masi is a 'Type I' - bucket and shim, where the Lotus/T3 is a 'Type III' - center pivot rocker. The Type I is usually considered superior due to the lower system mass. So, theoretically, the Masi should rev higher. In practice, though, I don't think it matters much. The Lotus doesn't seem to have much trouble revving. The Masi is much more compact, though.

[bgbmxer]

Very different. The biggest, IMO, is the valvetrain. The Masi is a 'Type I' - bucket and shim, where the Lotus/T3 is a 'Type III' - center pivot rocker. The Type I is usually considered superior due to the lower system mass. So, theoretically, the Masi should rev higher. In practice, though, I don't think it matters much. The Lotus doesn't seem to have much trouble revving. The Masi is much more compact, though.

think its a little stronger also?

[bgbmxer]

any other oppinons on my future swap:confused:

[turbovanman²]

Weigh the costs and availability. You can usually find complete TIII cars/engines from $500-$1500, Neon head swaps can be done on the cheap, so thats another possibility and of course, Masi swaps but are harder to find than all the others. If it was me, I'd do TIII, Neon then Masi.

On a side note, the more I drive it, the more I love it, instant boost even with a stage III wheel, gobs of off idle power, passing is a snap, boo yah baby, :partywoot:

[ShelGame]

My preference is for the Masi, actually, for race applications. I think it's only flaws are on the supply side. That said, I'm going with a Lotus head just becasue it's the easiest in terms of installation and parts supply. Neon head is doable, but it's a lot of fabricated parts.

[2.216VTurbo]

I like your preference Rob:thumb:...

[bgbmxer]

ok so i gots an answer can anyone show me a piture of one of those cracks in the head? is it from the freeze plugs expanding at a different rate or what?

[turbovanman²]

ok so i gots an answer can anyone show me a piture of one of those cracks in the head? is it from the freeze plugs expanding at a different rate or what?

Tons or reasons but they say its the coolant plugs which is fixable. Search the TIII section for pics, :thumb:

[2.216VTurbo]

Yeah and if you want, look at the pics of the Masi and TIII heads side by side I posted.

BGB, don't get the idea I am saying I think you should actually go with the Masi head, that would leave less of them for me to collect;)

Do your research, search old posts, then get the $$$ together. It's that last one that is usually the hard part:o...

[bgbmxer]

Yeah and if you want, look at the pics of the Masi and TIII heads side by side I posted.

BGB, don't get the idea I am saying I think you should actually go with the Masi head, that would leave less of them for me to collect;)

Do your research, search old posts, then get the $$$ together. It's that last one that is usually the hard part:o...


yeah i agree on the money part but im still mostly in my research stage thats why im on here asking away and all advice is welcome anything to help me reach my goals. a masi head will turn some heads for sure also. i just know that you dont have to work as hard to make power with the 16 valve heads and it would be way better loking without all the un needed lines like on a neon head.

[bgbmxer]

also took a look at some of the pictures of the two and the masi head is way more compact which in an lbody size of things are a big issue and would probably nmake work easier

[turbovanman²]

also took a look at some of the pictures of the two and the masi head is way more compact which in an lbody size of things are a big issue and would probably nmake work easier

You have to notch the frame when running the powersteering with a TIII.

[bgbmxer]

hits the subframe you mean

[turbovanman²]

hits the subframe you mean

Frame, subframe, unibody, you know what I mean, :o

[bgbmxer]

hate cutting on structural stuff thats no fun

[2.216VTurbo]

also took a look at some of the pictures of the two and the masi head is way more compact which in an lbody size of things are a big issue and would probably nmake work easier

Compact is a tough word to qualify here, the Masi head is MUCH narrower but because the cams sit above the valves not beside them, it is also much TALLER.

[turbovanman²]

Compact is a tough word to qualify here, the Masi head is MUCH narrower but because the cams sit above the valves not beside them, it is also much TALLER.

How about some pics? ;)

[bgbmxer]

will it clear my tock shelby charger hood if so than i think the masi would be better

[2.216VTurbo]

How about some pics? ;)http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13554


Did you search Simon;)?

[turbovanman²]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13554


Did you search Simon;)?

Nope, forgot about that thread, and asking for the OP, :thumb:

Great comparison pics, it really shows the difference in height and width.

Have you ever weighed each head?

[bgbmxer]

will it clear a stock hood

[turbovanman²]

AFAIK, all the engines clear the stock hood.

[bgbmxer]

yeah well a masi head is not stock in an l body and u said its tall so im just making sure

[turbovanman²]

yeah well a masi head is not stock in an l body and u said its tall so im just making sure

Didn't say it was, I said STOCK hood, ;)

[2.216VTurbo]

yeah well a masi head is not stock in an l body and u said its tall so im just making sure

There are at least 10 Masi L bodies out there that I know of, none with hood clearance problems.

[turbovanman²]

There are at least 10 Masi L bodies out there that I know of, none with hood clearance problems.

Where? Pics? Times?

[bgbmxer]

2nd on the pics and times and i guess i have to man up and go for the masi head i guess im gonna have to go to the dealer and price one see if they can get one and how much :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

2nd on the pics and times and i guess i have to man up and go for the masi head i guess im gonna have to go to the dealer and price one see if they can get one and how much :thumb:

I think there NLA. They stopped making this stuff in the 90's.

[bgbmxer]

we will see i know a few people at the dealer so they can kick over some stones for me. we will see what happens but if they dont have them where does RDI get theres at then

[turbovanman²]

we will see i know a few people at the dealer so they can kick over some stones for me. we will see what happens but if they dont have them where does RDI get theres at then

Probably old stock. He has tons of NOS TIII stuff too, must have been rich or saw the future years ago, :o

[2.216VTurbo]

we will see i know a few people at the dealer so they can kick over some stones for me. we will see what happens but if they dont have them where does RDI get theres at then

I wouldn't mind seeing an 11th Masi L body running around:eyebrows: Look around, check RDI, dealer, whatever stones you can turn over etc, if you don't come up with a head I *may* have a spare head or a whole motor, but be warned, they are pricey. Even a motor with 0 compression in one hole is a $3500. prospect:o

[GLHNSLHT2]

RDI bought and buys all the Masi stuff he can get his hands on for the most part. He bought all of Mopars old stock and sold it off. Last I heard he has zero NOS heads anymore. Yes he makes some nice cash but works hard for it. He called me at 11:30pm his time the other night to discuss what I wanted done to my head. He had just finished up working. Poor guy. But he's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Hopefully one day I'll be able talk to him without it being over the phone or email.

[turbovanman²]

I wouldn't mind seeing an 11th Masi L body running around:eyebrows: Look around, check RDI, dealer, whatever stones you can turn over etc, if you don't come up with a head I *may* have a spare head or a whole motor, but be warned, they are pricey. Even a motor with 0 compression in one hole is a $3500. prospect:o

Thats why I'd stick with a TIII, you can buy a car for less than that, not that I recommend you do that, :o


RDI bought and buys all the Masi stuff he can get his hands on for the most part. He bought all of Mopars old stock and sold it off. Last I heard he has zero NOS heads anymore. Yes he makes some nice cash but works hard for it. He called me at 11:30pm his time the other night to discuss what I wanted done to my head. He had just finished up working. Poor guy. But he's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Hopefully one day I'll be able talk to him without it being over the phone or email.

Thats cool, heard good things about him, :thumb:

[bgbmxer]

whole motor would not be a bad idea you have all the brackets and such which helps out

[ShelGame]

B&G Chrysler has a couple of race-prepped Masi heads/motors for sale for (relatively) reasonable prices : http://www.bgchrysler.com/What_s_New/what_s_new.html



1992 #7 GTU Daytona Engine assy, Chrysler factory 2.3L,16V DOHC Maserati head,Crower billet crank,Titaninum rods,Venolia pistons, Kinsler fuel injection,Header,300+ HP $4,000

1990 Maserati TC 16valve DOHC cylinder head assy,under 500 miles run time,w/intake & exhaust manifolds $2,000

1990 Maserati TC 16valve DOHC complete engine & trans assy, 27,000 miles,only 500 of these vehicle were sold with this drivetrain (Rare). $3,000

[2.216VTurbo]

RDI bought and buys all the Masi stuff he can get his hands on for the most part. He bought all of Mopars old stock and sold it off. Last I heard he has zero NOS heads anymore. Yes he makes some nice cash but works hard for it. He called me at 11:30pm his time the other night to discuss what I wanted done to my head. He had just finished up working. Poor guy. But he's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Hopefully one day I'll be able talk to him without it being over the phone or email.

Well then, you can meet him in Detroit at SDAC:eyebrows:

[turbovanman²]

B&G Chrysler has a couple of race-prepped Masi heads/motors for sale for (relatively) reasonable prices : http://www.bgchrysler.com/What_s_New/what_s_new.html

Not bad prices, way outta my league though, lol!

[bgbmxer]

still not sure yet on which one seeing as i dont have the cash anyways but will this winter so will scavenge then

[GLHNSLHT2]

I'm not going to Sdac though.

[amcpacer]

Come on now Masi Heads are not that rare. I have a masi head in the closet with a set of pistons. I should hurry up and sell it to someone who actually intends to use it. LOL.

[bgbmxer]

yea like me in a few months :) will make some big power with it

[bgbmxer]

and another thing how did they get 2.3 liters out of it

[amcpacer]

I believe both the 16V lotus and 16V masi are 2.2.

[bgbmxer]

in some of the articles it says its 2.2 and others it says the masi is 2.3 its weird so how much would you want for that head

[turbovanman²]

2.3 is a typo, Dodge never sold a 2.3 turbo engine to the public.

[GLHNSLHT2]

B&G's has a custom crank and rods. Stock they're 2.2 liters.

[2.216VTurbo]

That 2.3 Masi motor that B&G has is a custom Naturallly Aspirated motor. Sky high compression and big cams to get to 300 HP with no turbo...

[turbovanman²]

That 2.3 Masi motor that B&G has is a custom Naturallly Aspirated motor. Sky high compression and big cams to get to 300 HP with no turbo...

Very cool, :thumb:

[2.216VTurbo]

Come on now Masi Heads are not that rare. I have a masi head in the closet with a set of pistons. I should hurry up and sell it to someone who actually intends to use it. LOL.

Well maybe your Ebay reserve was too ambitious;) Or that head wouldn't still be in your closet... I had bids on a few of your lots from that motor...

[bgbmxer]

well in a month or two i will be ready to buy a head so let me know