The best computer setup for my engine setup..

[89ShelbyGuy]

Hey guys...i just wanted to get some feed back on how i should go about managing my fuel and boost...heres my specs:

Car: 89 Daytona shelby
Engine: 2.5 bored over .020 with Mahles and shotpeened rods and Cast Crank, balance shafts removed.

Tranny: a555 with TU's t2/t3 setup clutch
Head: tvanlant's customed built and ported head
Cam: Stock
Springs: HD Mopar springs
Turbo: TU's S-60 Turbo (Not a TRUE s-60 has smaller exhaust side)
Exhaust: 2.5 glasspack side exit
Intercooler: Paired Stock t-2 coolers

Now, i plan on installing a hp fuel pump.
And would like to know the ecu side....should i set my own cally up? what size injectors, fuel rail? I would like to get this daytona in the 12's...

LMK what every thinks what route i should go. Thanks!!

[turbovanman²]

The best is standalone, followed by you doing your own cals, followed by a custom chip by FWD or Shelgame.

[BF/STOCKER SPIRIT]

DAVE'S RIGHT!, standalone are awesome, but on the expensive side. but pm DR.''SHELLGAME''
Tell him, your symptoms,He tell you what you need.redo your cal,and yu'll be flying
Plus he's a awesome person,

[turbovanman²]

DAVE'S RIGHT!, standalone are awesome, but on the expensive side.

Who's Dave? :confused:

[Speedeuphoria]

Dave stop playing, you know who you are. Always trying to confuse people:lol:

[cordes]

IMO there is nothing that a standalone can do that the stock electronics can't for 1/10 the price, and 1/10 the setup hassle.

I would run 72pph injectors with stock electronics running one of Rob's Turbonator cals.

[turbovanman²]

IMO there is nothing that a standalone can do that the stock electronics can't for 1/10 the price, and 1/10 the setup hassle.

I would run 72pph injectors with stock electronics running one of Rob's Turbonator cals.

Sure, if you like having numerous cals sent as each one is wrong. You can't tune a car over the internet, you can get close but unless you can alter the cal yourself, it will never be right. I've been playing cal tag for years, getting tired of it and the lost potential.

[cordes]

Sure, if you like having numerous cals sent as each one is wrong. You can't tune a car over the internet, you can get close but unless you can alter the cal yourself, it will never be right. I've been playing cal tag for years, getting tired of it and the lost potential.

Sorry, I assumed that the OP would be setting all of this up himself. With an afternoon's worth of reading making your own custom cals is super easy. I am sure that reading how to properly use any standalone will take just as long if not longer since most of us have a good understanding of how our ECUs work from the start.

At the end of the day you will have to tune with a socketed ECU, or a stand alone. They both do the same thing in the end and if you can't figure one out, it is pointless to try the other. At that point it is easiest to pay someone else to do your work for you.

[tryingbe]

Sorry, I assumed that the OP would be setting all of this up himself. With an afternoon's worth of reading making your own custom cals is super easy. I am sure that reading how to properly use any standalone will take just as long if not longer since most of us have a good understanding of how our ECUs work from the start.


I just buy the socketed SMBC or LM... they're cheap enough to paid somebody else to do it. Possibly screwing it up while soldering on the other hand, it's not cheap.

Burning your own cal is great and all, but I'm up to version 1.9 with my own cal, changing one or two thing, logging it and see how it runs. No joke, I can change out the chip in complete darkness now in my 89 Daytona Shelby, and it'll be just as fast in the light.... still, cal is far from prefect.

And the worst thing about doing your own cal, if you're stuck, you're at the mercy to whoever is capable and willing to help... and you hope they have the correct info...

[cordes]

I just buy the socketed SMBC or LM... they're cheap enough to paid somebody else to do it. Possibly screwing it up while soldering on the other hand, it's not cheap. If someone can't socket a board they should give up and pay someone else to do all their work

Burning your own cal is great and all, but I'm up to version 1.9 with my own cal, changing one or two thing, logging it and see how it runs. No joke, I can change out the chip in complete darkness now in my 89 Daytona Shelby, and it'll be just as fast in the light.... still, cal is far from prefect. Are you saying that a standalone will give people perfect results right out of the box?

And the worst thing about doing your own cal, if you're stuck, you're at the mercy to whoever is capable and willing to help... and you hope they have the correct info... As opposed to a standalone which is run by a hand full of people on the board, while the custom cals are used by many who are the people that usually weigh in on every tuning thread?

See red text.

ETA: My real issue with a lot of the people who proport that a standalone is better etc. is that they portray it as some magic bullet which will run smoothly from day one, and be easy to figure out.

[turbovanman²]

ETA: My real issue with a lot of the people who proport that a standalone is better etc. is that they portray it as some magic bullet which will run smoothly from day one, and be easy to figure out.

Nope, I don't see that at all. I was thinking of doing my own but honestly, I don't have the energy, its mostly a time thing. The guy next door does the tuning for standalones, the hardest part is installing it, then an hour or 2 later, its tuned, :clap:

Some also don't have that luxury so over the counter cals are still a good option, :nod:

[Speedeuphoria]

Oh goody another great debate!

If I had an 8valve I would deff consider making my own cals, the main drawback to me is not having realtime adjustments, man that would be a PITA. I could see starting up the car for the 1st time and while it warms up, have to keep a log of where it needs slight adjustments as it warms up, I dont think I could do it. I would prob burn through many versions and have several notebooks full of adjustments. Man that would be a lot of wasted time IMO. Put it this way go to the dyno and see how much tuning you can do in the time allowed.

I like the fact that as its warming up or idling I can just hit 1 button and add or remove fuel or timing.

Now bang for the buck and the features are great on the Cals

[SebringLX]

I've never worked with the older ECMs, PCMs, whatever you guys call them on your cars... but it just seems to easy to me with the NGC1 PCM on my car. Might be a little more involved for you guys, but I'm sure the principle is the same.

I've only had to flash 3 tunes to my PCM, and it takes all of 3 minutes to do it each time. Sure I can't adjust things instantly, but it doesn't take long at all. Minor adjustments take a few seconds to make, save the file to the handheld, flash the PCM with it, and done.

First flash nailed part throttle, but idle was weird. 2nd flash fixed the idle. 3rd flash nailed WOT. It's all in the #'s. ;)

Simon, I've tuned a dozen or so vehicles over the internet. Now the way I am able to do it on the more modern vehicles is a lot easier than what you guys have to do. There's no mailing anything back and forth, I can just send updates via e-mail. However, it can be done, and you can get excellent results from it. Granted someone sitting with you on a dyno should produce the best results, but that's not always an option for a lot of people. As long as you have a proper way to datalog, and your tuner knows how to read the logs you send him, you can get a great tune over the internet.

[BF/STOCKER SPIRIT]

Oops Mean't Simon,

[risen]

Simon, I've tuned a dozen or so vehicles over the internet. Now the way I am able to do it on the more modern vehicles is a lot easier than what you guys have to do. There's no mailing anything back and forth, I can just send updates via e-mail. However, it can be done, and you can get excellent results from it. Granted someone sitting with you on a dyno should produce the best results, but that's not always an option for a lot of people. As long as you have a proper way to datalog, and your tuner knows how to read the logs you send him, you can get a great tune over the internet.

Just out of curiousoty, are most of the cars you've done this with MAF based systems or MAP based? Also, datalogging with OBD2 based stuff is 1000x easier than anything from the mid to late 80's.

I say it all comes down to what you are most comfortable with tuning (if you want to tune it yourself). The factory systems all have the best base tune (obviously) and have been made very flexible recently. As an example, has anyone looked at the feature list for the Turbonator cals lately :hail: ? Not to mention that the knock support is normally better with the factory electronics since stand alones have a wide audience and knock sensing facilities vary greatly between makes and models.

If you don't want to tune it for yourself, then a standalone may be a better bet since it's kind of rare to find a tuning shop with mid 80's Chrysler experience (as in Simon's case). Documentation is also more readily available for standalones. I've actually read *complaints* about the amount of documentation that comes with AEM standalones, lol. Vendor cals are a viable option here too, but your setup needs to be really close to what they specify the cal for or you're bound to have problems.

One thing that really irks me about the way some other groups do recals for factory ecus is that people charge for every revision. Changing to new injectors costs another couple hundred bucks on top of the injectors, even if they're just changing a 2 or 4 byte constant. Some of our vendors do a really good job here, they'll tweak your cal without charging you extra $.

In the end I'd probably take a factory system that's been figured out over a standalone. Certinaly with the amount of work that's been done on the smec codebase(s) it's hard to justify putting a standalone in a 88/89 car if you're going to try and tune it yourself.

[GLHNSLHT2]

For doing multiple cars or only wanting to burn once a Romulator sounds like the ticket. For SMEC's I love my flashable setup but the guy that was doing them stopped. I know some people can get the LM's to be flashable too. I love being able to tweak the car a bit if I want. A wideband and one of the 3 bar cals out there are all you really need.

[tryingbe]

Don't take my post as offensive, it's not meant to be.



I just buy the socketed SMBC or LM... they're cheap enough to paid somebody else to do it. Possibly screwing it up while soldering on the other hand, it's not cheap. If someone can't socket a board they should give up and pay someone else to do all their work
Wait the minute, what does socketing a board have anything to do with making one's own calibration?

In my case,
I sold sell my TII calibation for $60-$75 + shipping.
Bought a socketed SMEC for like $40-45 shipped, stupid cheap.
Junkyard Computer is $25, gas to get there is $10, another $1 or so for a socket, and at least 2-3 hours of my time, if not more.

It'd make no sense to socket my TII computer, and for $10, I'd gladly pay somebody else to inhale the toxic lead soldering fume, save me the time and trouble. (Yes, I know there are non-lead solder out there) Beside, I rather keep somebody selling TD parts in business...



Burning your own cal is great and all, but I'm up to version 1.9 with my own cal, changing one or two thing, logging it and see how it runs. No joke, I can change out the chip in complete darkness now in my 89 Daytona Shelby, and it'll be just as fast in the light.... still, cal is far from prefect. Are you saying that a standalone will give people perfect results right out of the box?

I'm saying TIME is needed a LOT more if you're doing your own calibration.

I have to keep adjusting the cal to meet my car needs. And to adjust the cal for a SMEC car is to burn the chip and change the chip, which means you have spend the time to adjust whatever you want, erase the chip, burn the chip, disconnect two the batter connect, take out the nut holding the battery, take out the battery, unscrew the 2 bolts holding the SMEC, unscrew the one bolt hold the connector to SMEC, unplug another connector, remove the SMEC, unscrew 6 trox screws, carefully take out the chip, insert new chip and do everything in reverse. I've done it so many times that I can now do it in complete darkness!!!

THEN, I have to do what Speedeuphoria says and hope whatever I adjust is working like I intend to.



If I had an 8valve I would deff consider making my own cals, the main drawback to me is not having realtime adjustments, man that would be a PITA. I could see starting up the car for the 1st time and while it warms up, have to keep a log of where it needs slight adjustments as it warms up, I dont think I could do it. I would prob burn through many versions and have several notebooks full of adjustments. Man that would be a lot of wasted time IMO. Put it this way go to the dyno and see how much tuning you can do in the time allowed.

I imagine standalone would allow you with real time adjustment and would certainly save a LOT of time, just changing the calibration is 10-15 minute each time, adjusting the calibration is another 10-15 minute, then the test drive time... many and many of them.



And the worst thing about doing your own cal, if you're stuck, you're at the mercy to whoever is capable and willing to help... and you hope they have the correct info... As opposed to a standalone which is run by a hand full of people on the board, while the custom cals are used by many who are the people that usually weigh in on every tuning thread?


Yes, so far the TM people and Moparchem has been very helpful.
Though, I'm still having rich idle and my CE on knock lights issues. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26048

Would you be kindly to point me to the correct direction or let the right people who can point me to the correct direction to solve both?
I would really really appreciates it if you can.

[karlak]

sds system on ebay

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__W0QQPartType8182f47ZComputerChipCruis eControl6eff9861QQComputerChipCruiseControlPartTyp ec24fa648ZEngineComputersd6a87c5aQQBrand3d75b67ZQ2 1QQ_catZ33594QQ_fcsfcZ0QQ_flZl2QQ_pcatsZ6030Q2c602 8Q2c6000QQ_ssovZ1QQ_verZ4?_rkw=sds

[cordes]

Wow, this is a lot of board code that could get ugly.


Don't take my post as offensive, it's not meant to be. I won't.


Wait the minute, what does socketing a board have anything to do with making one's own calibration? You mentioned purchasing a socketed board so you wouldn't mess one up. I think someone probably shouldn't be doing any of this if they can't figure out how to work a soldering iron. That could just be me I guess.

In my case,
I sold sell my TII calibation for $60-$75 + shipping.
Bought a socketed SMEC for like $40-45 shipped, stupid cheap.
Junkyard Computer is $25, gas to get there is $10, another $1 or so for a socket, and at least 2-3 hours of my time, if not more.

It'd make no sense to socket my TII computer, and for $10, I'd gladly pay somebody else to inhale the toxic lead soldering fume, save me the time and trouble. (Yes, I know there are non-lead solder out there) Beside, I rather keep somebody selling TD parts in business... If you can sell your SMEC for that and buy a socketed one for cheaper, I think it would be silly not to do what you did. :thumb:




I'm saying TIME is needed a LOT more if you're doing your own calibration.

I have to keep adjusting the cal to meet my car needs. And to adjust the cal for a SMEC car is to burn the chip and change the chip, which means you have spend the time to adjust whatever you want, erase the chip, burn the chip, disconnect two the batter connect, take out the nut holding the battery, take out the battery, unscrew the 2 bolts holding the SMEC, unscrew the one bolt hold the connector to SMEC, unplug another connector, remove the SMEC, unscrew 6 trox screws, carefully take out the chip, insert new chip and do everything in reverse. I've done it so many times that I can now do it in complete darkness!!! That is a good point. I have been working with my LM so much that I forgot how much I hate to erase the chip from my SBEC with UV light and pull the battery etc. You can get a ribbon cable so you don't have to do that, but you are right that it is a real pain if you just have a socketed SMEC or SBEC.

THEN, I have to do what Speedeuphoria says and hope whatever I adjust is working like I intend to.



I imagine standalone would allow you with real time adjustment and would certainly save a LOT of time, just changing the calibration is 10-15 minute each time, adjusting the calibration is another 10-15 minute, then the test drive time... many and many of them. I hope that we aren't too far away from flashable LMs, SMECs, and (someday) SBECs in car. I know you can readily do it with the SMEC, and there are people who have done it with the LM. That would be nice indeed.





Yes, so far the TM people and Moparchem has been very helpful.
Though, I'm still having rich idle and my CE on knock lights issues. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26048

Would you be kindly to point me to the correct direction or let the right people who can point me to the correct direction to solve both?
I would really really appreciates it if you can.

You are running a 2.5 with 89' TII electronics and base cal I believe? I would see if Bucar, or Rob would know what the deal is with that. I know that Bucar has posted a 87 TII cal for a 2.5. You might want to have a look at that. I would also recommend comparing the timing tables from a stock 90 2.5 cal with those of yours to see if that CEL at 10PSI was it? is actually some knock from too much spark or if it is to sensitive a sensor, loose bracket etc.

[1984rampage]

Are doing your own cals really that easy? What all do you need?

[cordes]

Are doing your own cals really that easy? What all do you need?

For a very basic run down of what you need check out my site.

http://www.omniglht.com/cal.html

[1984rampage]

I have a socketed lm, so all I need is a laptop, chips, and a burner?
Is the code super hard to figure out?

[moparzrule]

You don't even need a laptop, unless you want to make adjustments at the track or anywhere other than back at your house.

[tryingbe]

You are running a 2.5 with 89' TII electronics and base cal I believe? I would see if Bucar, or Rob would know what the deal is with that. I know that Bucar has posted a 87 TII cal for a 2.5. You might want to have a look at that. I would also recommend comparing the timing tables from a stock 90 2.5 cal with those of yours to see if that CEL at 10PSI was it? is actually some knock from too much spark or if it is to sensitive a sensor, loose bracket etc.


Using Ladybug60 for base, 3 bar.

Where do I find a stock 89 2.5L cal? ShelGame's are modified, I want to find a unmodified one.

Already re-install the knock sensor with teflon tape in the thread. Don't have any loose bracket, but my motor mounts are polybushings mounts with stock bobble strut mount.

[turbovanman²]

Are doing your own cals really that easy? What all do you need?

No, there not easy, you have to understand the code and learn what does what. Its not a simple 2 min job, you need to learn and study.

[GLHNSLHT2]

It's not that hard. You have fuel and spark mostly. Boost is a little more complicated if use factory control.

[1984rampage]

I figure I'd get someone to make me a custom cal and then fine tune it.

[SebringLX]

Just out of curiousoty, are most of the cars you've done this with MAF based systems or MAP based? Also, datalogging with OBD2 based stuff is 1000x easier than anything from the mid to late 80's.
All Dodges, all MAP based. Easier to datalog, sure... but it can still be done, and that is the most important part. I won't tune for anyone who can't send proper datalogs to me.



One thing that really irks me about the way some other groups do recals for factory ecus is that people charge for every revision. Changing to new injectors costs another couple hundred bucks on top of the injectors, even if they're just changing a 2 or 4 byte constant. Some of our vendors do a really good job here, they'll tweak your cal without charging you extra $.

That may be somewhat understandable for the older ECUs... don't you have to ship them to ther person to get it flashed and shipped back? I'm not sure what all is involved, I just know it's not as easy as how I tune modern vehicles. I don't charge any extra for minor changes, but anything that causes me to have to write a whole new tune I usually charge people $50 for.

[risen]

All Dodges, all MAP based. Easier to datalog, sure... but it can still be done, and that is the most important part. I won't tune for anyone who can't send proper datalogs to me.

Obviously, maf based systems are a little easier to deal with (airflow is given to you, essentially). The big problem with the older stuff, is that many people don't want to invest the time in putting a serial or usb module on their ecu and fart with serial comms. I'd start selling logic modules w/usb adapters myself if I thought anyone would actually buy them. All the info to do it is actually in a KB article here.



That may be somewhat understandable for the older ECUs... don't you have to ship them to ther person to get it flashed and shipped back? I'm not sure what all is involved, I just know it's not as easy as how I tune modern vehicles. I don't charge any extra for minor changes, but anything that causes me to have to write a whole new tune I usually charge people $50 for.

They're all (e)eprom based, so the bins can be emailed and burned by the end-user. It's probably more that many people don't have burners and proms and don't feel like it. 50$ is a steal in some circles people want 250 for each tune.

[89ShelbyGuy]

Wow...got alotta feed back on this one. In my opinion, i think stand alone is alittle to much for me, all i am looking for is to get my daytona in the 12's. Whats the easiest,cheapest, and safest way to do this. Have my ecu socketed, and get a custom bin? I am leaning more towards that. I use to code back when, lol...i am sure i can code my own bin after i learn it alittle bit.. Now...who still sockets them?!?!?

[turbovanman²]

Shelgame does, MW6886, FWD. :thumb:

[risen]

Wow...got alotta feed back on this one.

You kicked a bee's nest, lol. It's almost a religious debate.

[cordes]

You kicked a bee's nest, lol. It's almost a religious debate.

You haven't gone through the trouble to read through the religion and/or gun rights threads yet have you. ;)

[MopàrBCN]

I think this debate has potential of going nowhere. At the end of the day all mentioned options are totally valid. Yet it depends on each individual to decide what is his/her way of going on about this subject.

Between all the options mentioned there simply isn't THE good one or THE bad one.

On the custom programmed cals, I can only confirm, that the level of support which I received especially from @Shellgame but as well from others is outstanding, given that each and everyone supporting is doing all this work voluntarily! Now, at the same time I confess that I would know quite easily a good few people who would shake their heads seing what I am doing. The reason why I chose this way, is because it really means fun to me. This same thing can easily be hell to others.

On the standalone systems: The advantage you have there is that usually a business is behind them with professionals supporting them. Workwise I feel it is the same as doing your own cal. You got to tune and measure and change over again. Is it a good way? Yes of cause, if it gets you where you want to be.

The best compromise between DIY and Standalons in my opinion would be a vendors cal. There are rock solid but static. But you get value for your money and even some leeway to take things in your own hands. It is also a good way of doing things, if it gets you where you want to be.

See, there is not a lot to discuss. It depends on how deep and in what fashion you want to involve yourself. The good thing is, there is a solution for everyone!