View Full Version : Proper way to break in rings?
What's the proper way to break in Power Seal rings?? The van's getting bored out .030 over with Venolias and when I get it running I want to break it in right. I'll be bracket racing it as well, so I want each and every ring to be seated to hold the most compression and oil. Want to make sure I stay consistant. ;)
Ken said something about breaking them in HARD. What's that all about??
Thanks,
-Bryan
There are two schools of thought:
I. break them in easy for ~500 miles or so.
or
II. break them in by running them hard right from the start, like the car will be driven.
Ive tried both, and both have worked. All I can say is break in the rings with regular oil for maybe the first 500 miles, and limit the boost.
So otherwise, flip a coin.
clay
GLHSKEN
03-07-2006, 11:28 AM
Moly rings like a hard set. I hammer it. Reeves had a brand new engine in at SDAC 14... He won the quick 8 with less than 100 miles on the car.
Forgot to add, he's still running that engine.
turbovanmanČ
03-07-2006, 01:08 PM
Get it running, check and set timing, all levels full, no leaks, I limit boost to intake boost-IE waste gate to intake, go beat on it, hard. I do 25 or so tromps in 2nd gear from 40-80 km/h then chop the gas, repeat. This pushes the rings out then floods them with oil. Change oil and filter and run reg oil for3000 miles, then switch to synthetic.
Motune has proven this method time and time again as does Nascar, bike racers, me and Ken, countless others. Baby it, you will have crappy ring seal and lots of blowby. :(
91DSX
03-07-2006, 01:51 PM
Broke mine in hard just like Ken & Simon, 150psi of compression in EVERY cylinder after 1000kms. Even some brand new cars are recommened by the manufacturer to be run hard for the first few hundred miles.
briceturbosports
03-07-2006, 02:38 PM
Get it running, check and set timing, all levels full, no leaks, I limit boost to intake boost-IE waste gate to intake, go beat on it, hard. I do 25 or so tromps in 2nd gear from 40-80 km/h then chop the gas, repeat. This pushes the rings out then floods them with oil. Change oil and filter and run reg oil for3000 miles, then switch to synthetic.
Motune has proven this method time and time again as does Nascar, bike racers, me and Ken, countless others. Baby it, you will have crappy ring seal and lots of blowby. :(
chryser told us at school to do this they told us to get it in 2nd take it up to 3500 rpm let it decel to 1500 rpm twice put it in 3rd take it to 4500 let it decel to 2500 rpm twice and then let it cool 2 to 3 hr take it out do it again in 2 nd and 3rd and then beat the crap out of it and it will be great
both ways work great
GLHSKEN
03-07-2006, 04:39 PM
LOL... But why wait if you don't have to!!
8valves
03-07-2006, 04:56 PM
Baby it, you will have crappy ring seal and lots of blowby. :(
My car: babied for 476 miles, then beat on. With a less than perfect machining/fitment job, leakdown was... 2% 2.5% 3.5% 2%
So it can still seal if babied in the beginning. Mine did at least.
Aaron Miller
turbovanmanČ
03-07-2006, 05:27 PM
My car: babied for 476 miles, then beat on. With a less than perfect machining/fitment job, leakdown was... 2% 2.5% 3.5% 2%
So it can still seal if babied in the beginning. Mine did at least.
Aaron Miller
Maybe not in the beginning but I will try to find Motune's link, he shows the long term effects of babying the engine when new.
chryser told us at school to do this they told us to get it in 2nd take it up to 3500 rpm let it decel to 1500 rpm twice put it in 3rd take it to 4500 let it decel to 2500 rpm twice and then let it cool 2 to 3 hr take it out do it again in 2 nd and 3rd and then beat the crap out of it and it will be great
both ways work great
I got the 25 times WOT and decel from the back of the Hastings Ring box, :thumb:
86Shelby
03-08-2006, 12:51 AM
I'll be breaking the new R/T engine in hard. It will see repeated boost after 4-5 minutes of runtime. I did the baby soft break in on the GLHT. I got into boost twice in the first 100 miles. Crappy ring seal after 15k miles. Lot of blowby. Not a happy camper. I figure the hard break in is worth a shot, worst case is it ends up like the GLHT.
Dave_J
03-08-2006, 02:03 AM
Read this and then decide for your self. http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm . I hammer it. CAUTION: READ THE WARNINGS BEFORE USING! DaveJ
Force Fed Mopar
03-08-2006, 02:07 AM
I broke mine in easy, but not babying it. I boosted it some, but not WOT runs. Just normal, everyday city-driving accelleration and some normal highway driving (55-75 mph steady, few small bursts here and there). Never more than 10 psi I guess for the 1st 500 miles. Haven't done a compression check on it yet, but it running fine at 20k, no smoke, plenty of vacuum, good power on or off boost.
I don't like the hard method because in a new engine there's a lot of other parts being broke in at the same time, not just the rings.
Also, I wipe on a film of trans fluid on the cyl walls during assembly. I was told by a good mechanic that it will help the rings seat as it burns off. Not sure if it really helps or not, but so far I've built 2 engines this way, the 2.2 T2 in my GLHS and the 318 V8 in my truck, and both run excellent.
turbovanmanČ
03-08-2006, 02:43 AM
Read this and then decide for your self. http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm . I hammer it. CAUTION: READ THE WARNINGS BEFORE USING! DaveJ
Thats the site, and let me add, he built the fastest supersport legal bikes in the Northwest. :D
Ondonti
03-08-2006, 05:25 AM
What about chrome rings?
Also, Does it matter if I have any backpressure when breaking in the motor. I might be running open manifold on my 3.0 motor when I break it in and the turbo wont be installed.
[QUOTE=Force Fed Mopar]
I don't like the hard method because in a new engine there's a lot of other parts being broke in at the same time, not just the rings.
[QUOTE]
BINGO!!
Let's not forget there are usually new bearings in there too, not good to hammer them when new... :amen:
Cranks are harder to replace than rings..... :(
Ah, a very good point. So what is one to do when everything is fresh??? That worries me... I have new main and rod bearings, new oil pump, intermediate shaft, pistons, rings, turbo, and computer.
GLHSKEN
03-08-2006, 10:23 AM
The bearings If they are going to fail will do so no matter what. I've disassmbled a few low mile engines... Bearings always looked brand new. The oil performs the same task in the beginning as it does after break in. Cushin the surface and provide a surface for the bearing to ride on.
Starting the car is harder on the bearings than a 12 psi (or in my case a 22psi) blast to seat the rings.
You change the oil after start-up to remove the metalic particles from the rings seating. If you have bearing metal in there.. something else was wrong.
bearings dont require break in. They dont have to 'seat' like rings.
They either work right from the start, or they dont.
oldgregg
03-08-2006, 01:00 PM
Guys, rings "break in" & seat pretty much upon start up.
Doesn't matter of the engine is run hard or not.
Long as the cross hatch was done properly you'll have no problems with rings not sealing or "leaking".
turbovanmanČ
03-08-2006, 01:17 PM
[QUOTE=Force Fed Mopar]
I don't like the hard method because in a new engine there's a lot of other parts being broke in at the same time, not just the rings.
[QUOTE]
BINGO!!
Let's not forget there are usually new bearings in there too, not good to hammer them when new... :amen:
Cranks are harder to replace than rings..... :(
What are you talking about? Cranks and bearings don't need breaking in!
There suspended on a thin wedge of oil, please explain how you break this in?
Guys, rings "break in" & seat pretty much upon start up.
Doesn't matter of the engine is run hard or not.
Long as the cross hatch was done properly you'll have no problems with rings not sealing or "leaking".
Have to disagree Butch, rings won't seat at idle or low loads. Sorry, they will seat but won't seal very well. Seen it a few times.
WVRampage
03-08-2006, 01:52 PM
I let mine warm up and then I beat on it.Then I chance the oil after abotu 100 miles then at 500 miles and then 1000 and then 3000 so after that I would switch to sythetic.
GLHSKEN
03-08-2006, 02:14 PM
^^^^^ Exactly, except I change the oil after the initial break in runs... If not then, within the 1st 50 miles minimum.
jckrieger
03-08-2006, 06:26 PM
Why exactly do bearings need a break in period? Please explain this to me, preferably with a very reliable source (such as manufacturer data).
20w/ashelby
03-08-2006, 06:54 PM
I broke in my engine very hard. old crank, rods from a different motor, and new pistons, rings, bearings, oil pump. I had a stuck wastegate and it boosted like crazy. I ran it super hard but changed the oil often. 4000 miles later it has 157-162 PSI across the board.
Why exactly do bearings need a break in period? Please explain this to me, preferably with a very reliable source (such as manufacturer data).
bearings dont need a break in. as long as they are properly lubricated, they are good to go.
clay
Ondonti
03-08-2006, 07:29 PM
If your bearings "break in" that means they are going to fail:dancingbana: Once your oiling system gets going they dont touch the crank. Oil cant break something in unless you dont change the oil. :eyebrows:
In regards to seating the rings, you need cylinder pressure to push the rings against the cylinder walls, or they will not evenly seat. They may "seat" but they wont seat evenly.
Force Fed Mopar
03-08-2006, 11:46 PM
What you guys are saying about breaking them in hard makes sense, I just don't see running a brand new engine wide open all over from the get-go. Like I say, I will boost it here and there, but if something goes bad, I'd rather it went bad at 5 or 10 psi and part throttle then at full song w/ 15+psi of boost. I have gotten brand new oil pumps that were bad, if one quits on you at WOT, bye-bye crank. Of it will do that anytime one goes, but usually it seems that oil pump either work fine when new or are bad, or go bad within the first 100 or so miles.
Also like to make sure everything is working properly, make sure nothing works loose, or was left undone or something, make sure nothing springs a leak, etc.
altered7151
03-09-2006, 01:00 AM
I grew up racing air-cooled vw's and we always seated the rings in by running them hard and always had great result. You really dont have much of a choice on a race car. Just fire it up, make sure it sounds healthy and the oil pressure is good, then take her out and make some hard passes. Never had a ring issue.
[QUOTE=turbovanman] What are you talking about? Cranks and bearings don't need breaking in!
There suspended on a thin wedge of oil, please explain how you break this in?
[QUOTE]
What I'm talking about is an old crank surface with a new rod bearing - Makes sense to let them get to know each other before hammering on them.
New crank surface / new bearings would be much less of an issue.
And yes, I know how they work, thanks. :blah:
[QUOTE=GLHSKEN] I've disassmbled a few low mile engines... Bearings always looked brand new. [QUOTE]
Yea, Because he spun a bearing on a new engine in his *garage* :lol: :p
turbovanmanČ
03-09-2006, 02:23 AM
What I'm talking about is an old crank surface with a new rod bearing - Makes sense to let them get to know each other before hammering on them.
New crank surface / new bearings would be much less of an issue.
And yes, I know how they work, thanks. :blah:
Again, I don't see your logic. There is NO CONTACT between the crank journal and bearing, hence, no break in required. I to have built many an engine using old crank, new bearings, vice versa and plenty of combos. If they rub, there done.
GLHSKEN
03-09-2006, 07:56 AM
[QUOTE=GLHSKEN] I've disassmbled a few low mile engines... Bearings always looked brand new. [QUOTE]
Yea, Because he spun a bearing on a new engine in his *garage* :lol: :p
Pardon me... :blah: :blah: ^^^ Where the hell do you get your info??? Never happened. If you are talking about the convertible, the goofy nephew used to long a bolt in the power steering bracket. Bottomed it out and it was the BRACKET banging not the engine.
Other failures were due to detonation... ever see what it can do to bearings.. Hmmm pushes that cushin of oil out and hammers them...
You do not need to break bearings in. As said above. They touch or rub, you are done.
BTW, Thank you for making our point. If the above had occured, The car would never have been out of the garage.... Hence if it was gonna happen it would have. It could not have been driven hard.
TrrboJeep
03-09-2006, 09:38 AM
Bryan, :D
After I rebuilt my 2.5L in the Jeep, I drove it to work for a week through town, instead of the express way. 25 miles each way of trafic lights starting and stopping and never getting over 50 mph. I accelerated hard up throuh the gears from every light. At the end of the week (300 miles later) I changed the oil and started driving it like I did before the rebuild. Closing in on 30K since then. Compression is 140 on all 4. No smoke, great vacuum!
I am a firm believer on driving cars hard. I am also a firm believer on good maintenance. For as long as I can remember, cars that were driven hard have always performed better than ones that were babied.
Don't hold back man, let the mini have it! :eyebrows:
Dave,
After I rebuilt my 2.5L in the Jeep, I drove it to work for a week through town, instead of the express way. 25 miles each way of trafic lights starting and stopping and never getting over 50 mph. I accelerated hard up throuh the gears from every light. At the end of the week (300 miles later) I changed the oil and started driving it like I did before the rebuild. Closing in on 30K since then. Compression is 140 on all 4. No smoke, great vacuum!
I am a firm believer on driving cars hard. I am also a firm believer on good maintenance. For as long as I can remember, cars that were driven hard have always performed better than ones that were babied.
Don't hold back man, let the mini have it! :eyebrows:
Please, please call me Bryan. :eyebrows:
Trust me, I'll break 'er in hard. Hard part is convincing pops to let me even drive the damn thing!
Moving on, when going through the initial break on period, would it be okay to leave it alone at 12psi?? I wont turn the boost up until Christian Grest and I can get a scanner hooked up to it.
TrrboJeep
03-09-2006, 10:42 AM
Please, please call me Bryan.
See above... :thumb:
(is Dave your Dad's name?) :confused:
turbovanmanČ
03-09-2006, 01:36 PM
See above... :thumb:
(is Dave your Dad's name?) :confused:
Chuck is his dads name, :thumb:
Dave, hahhhahahaa, :p I run low boost, using the intake to break them in, then go nuts after I change the oil. This engine, I broke it in, changed the oil then went to the track at 22 psi 2 days later, :thumb:
Chuck is his dads name, :thumb:
Dave, hahhhahahaa, :p I run low boost, using the intake to break them in, then go nuts after I change the oil. This engine, I broke it in, changed the oil then went to the track at 22 psi 2 days later, :thumb:
I'd watch it Simon... the boner van now has a 50 trim with 3" everything hot and some lovely +40s.
turbovanmanČ
03-09-2006, 03:50 PM
I'd watch it Simon... the boner van now has a 50 trim with 3" everything hot and some lovely +40s.
Watch what, your headlights in my rearview mirror, :lol:
John B
03-09-2006, 04:23 PM
[QUOTE=R/T][QUOTE=GLHSKEN] I've disassmbled a few low mile engines... Bearings always looked brand new.
They touch or rub, you are done.
I tore down my engine after 3000 miles to re-ring it. The Clevite 77 rod bearings were a bit shiney on the rod side and looked absolutely new (matte) on the cap side. What does that indicate? I swapped bearing halves top to bottom when I put it back together since the top seems to be the only part that gets a load. It plastigauges the same as when first assembled 3000 miles ago.
turbovanmanČ
03-09-2006, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE=GLHSKEN][QUOTE=R/T]
I tore down my engine after 3000 miles to re-ring it. The Clevite 77 rod bearings were a bit shiney on the rod side and looked absolutely new (matte) on the cap side. What does that indicate? I swapped bearing halves top to bottom when I put it back together since the top seems to be the only part that gets a load. It plastigauges the same as when first assembled 3000 miles ago.
Could be lack of lube upon start up, detonation as that hammers the top bearing.
If its just shiny, I wouldn't worry about it, I also flip bearings around, :amen:
Watch what, your headlights in my rearview mirror, :lol:
"...yah you're gonna need somethin' more than that crotch rocket!"
Again, I don't see your logic. There is NO CONTACT between the crank journal and bearing, hence, no break in required. I to have built many an engine using old crank, new bearings, vice versa and plenty of combos. If they rub, there done.
In a perfect world, no contact.
Yet we all see bearings with ridges, grooves, scuffs.
Same with cranks.
Maybe just at start up, maybe not supposed to, but they *do* touch.
If the crank / block / rods never touched, we would never need bearings at all, yet we do have them for some reason. :p
contraption22
03-10-2006, 09:37 AM
Yeah I would have to disagree with the "breaking in the bearings" theory. Bearings shouldn't need any break-in.
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