Quaiffe issue?

[Pat]

Last year, the first time I took my Shadow (t-III/568 with a Quaiffe) out to the track, it was all over the place. Darting left and right pretty hard through 1st and 2nd gear. It had never done that before. I immediately thought it was a suspension, steering or alignment issue. As time went on, I went through the suspension, steering, ball joints, bushings, re-centered the engine, etc...no change. By the end of the season, the car had a comletely rebuilt front end, fresh alignment, etc. and it still had pulling/darting issues under power.

Towards the end of the year, it go to the point where if I accelerated, even lightly, it would pull to the right. Take my off the gas and let the car deaccelerate against the motor, it would pull left. Like clockwork, I could make the car go one way or the other just by giving it some gas or letting off.

As a last ditch effort, I did a trans swap thinking there may be something wrong with the quaiffe in the 568 I've been running. Threw a used stock 568 in there and all issues disappeared. Car went back to going straight as an arrow, no pulling, darting..nothing. No other changes were made at all.

Has anyone had any issues like this before? Does it sound like an issue with the diff? I want to sort it out and get the quaiffe back in the car, but I want to make sure I fix it first. I'm going to start looking at the trans this weekend. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!

Pat

[CSXT802]

My 555/520 with OBX seems to do the same thing. It's as if you can feel the power being moved from left to right by the diff. It makes you feel very uncomfortable in the drivers seat.

[John B]

Uh oh. I just ordered a Peloquin.:confused2:

[Pat]

I've run this quaiffe for about 4 years and never had an issue before. Something definitely changed. Plus, right before I tore it apart, it would pull one way even accelerating lightly and pull the other way if I took my foot off the gas. Cruising at a steady speed it would go straight as an arrow.

[Frank]

Did you properly align the engine? Did you cut your one axle down to size?

[Pat]

Did you properly align the engine? Did you cut your one axle down to size?

Yes and yes. Axles were the same axles that have been in the car, checked engine center more than once.

[tryingbe]

Contact Quaiffe and see if they have experience this issue before?

I thought they have life time warranty?

[Speedeuphoria]

take apart the diff and post pics, I'm sure you will prob see something while its apart.

Oh what kind of fluid have you been using? Just incase its a wear issue

[MiniMopar]

Your problem sounds like uneven caster. My Daytona (Quaife) does a similar thing...pulls right on accel and left on decel. I know my caster is off due to issues with the frame on this car. There are ways to compensate for it if you find an alignment shop that really knows their stuff. I have an OBX in the CSX and it does not exhibit this behavior at all.

Caster is not adjustable on these cars without doing some grinding on things like the strut mount holes, so most alignment places ignore the caster indication.

[Pat]

Your problem sounds like uneven caster. My Daytona (Quaife) does a similar thing...pulls right on accel and left on decel. I know my caster is off due to issues with the frame on this car. There are ways to compensate for it if you find an alignment shop that really knows their stuff. I have an OBX in the CSX and it does not exhibit this behavior at all.

Caster is not adjustable on these cars without doing some grinding on things like the strut mount holes, so most alignment places ignore the caster indication.


Good suggstion...I'll look into it, but I'd think that if it were a caster issue, I'd have the same issues even with the open diff trans.

[Speedeuphoria]

yeah you would think so

I think loose or worn bushings could cause that as well, but like you said the new trans has no apparent issue so??

[Pat]

yeah you would think so

I think loose ow worn bushings could cause that as well, but like you said the new trans has no apparent issue so??


Nope, drives like a new car now. When it first started, I replaced all the front end bushings, ball joints, checked tie rod ends, alignment, tires/wheels, strut mounts, struts, etc.

The trans is already on the bench, so I'll pull the diff out, check the bearings/races for wear or any play. I pull the alignment sheet and look at what the caster measurement was on it. I bought it through Cindy, so I'll give her a call to see what she says also.

Thanks everyone.

[MiniMopar]

Good suggstion...I'll look into it, but I'd think that if it were a caster issue, I'd have the same issues even with the open diff trans.

I drove the car for about a year with the stock A413 with an open diff. There was a slight amount of pull sometimes, but not an on-off (or rather left-right) switch like it is with the A568+Quaife. The Daytona has a tweaked frame so I spent a lot of time getting the K-frame square to the car. When I did the caster became uneven, which means the strut mount is also not quite in the right place anymore. Using the printout from the alignment shop, I slotted the driver's side strut holes slightly and shifted the strut back as far as I could. It helped a bit. I need to take it back again and have the rest of the alignment rechecked.

So first make sure the K frame is square to the car and also check the rear axle.

[mock_glh]

This may sound like a dumb question but are your tires both the same size? I once bought some new tires for my Omni and as I got on the freeway to come home I jumped on it and the car instantly changed lanes. When I pulled over to inspect it I found a 205 on one side and a 195 on the other side. Once that was corrected it was fine. The side to side balance will also have the same effect when one tire has more traction than the other. There's nothing wrong with that Quaife.

[Ondonti]

I was having this problem at the track last friday with my OBX but the clutch was slipping so I am guessing the OBX was deciding to send power to the left axel (well whatever power it got). Car went right towards the wall on each pass.

[turbovanman²]

I think you'll find your Quaife has an internal problem unless your tires are pooched or the wrong size.

I know when I use snow tires on my van, it wants to dance on acceleration on a wet road, with my regular tires on, its straight as an arrow. I am chalking it up to the sidewall flex and the OBX trying to compensate somehow? :confused2:

[John B]

ICar went right towards the wall on each pass. :eek: Not good! I came close to losing it with torque steer the other day. That was why I ordered the Peloquin. :confused:

[mock_glh]

Contact Quaiffe and see if they have experience this issue before?

I thought they have life time warranty?


take apart the diff and post pics, I'm sure you will prob see something while its apart.

The Quaife warranty states that it is void if you take it apart or modify it. Keep that in mind.:nod:

[Pat]

The Quaife warranty states that it is void if you take it apart or modify it. Keep that in mind.:nod:

I'm not taking the unit apart, just taking the unit out of the trans to get a look at the diff bearings. I paid way too much for that thing to start monkeying with it!

[looneytuner]

Here is the url to contact Quaiffe about the problem. I would like to know what they say.

[MiniMopar]

Here is a million dollars.

[Speedeuphoria]

funny funny

[Pat]

Here is the url to contact Quaiffe about the problem. I would like to know what they say.


No URL there...can you repost or PM?

[Pat]

Here is a million dollars.


Bunch of comedians on this board!:clap:

[looneytuner]

duh a bad headache....
http://www.quaife.co.uk/Contact-Us

sorry.

[jonnyb]

Pat - I have this same problem. I've got a hybrid 523/568 with a quaife in my glht. I'm in the same boat as you - everything is new on my suspension (poly bushings in the k-frame, mp struts, new hubs, ball joints, etc., etc. etc.) and I had my friend take his time and align it to Shelby's glhs specs.

At the track it pulls really hard to the right, but since I'm just hammering on it and it's always pulling to the right it's managable. On the street - holy crap batman different story! If I get into it a little bit and I'm not going perfectly straight it seems to make the problem even worse. The car is flat out scary to drive hard on the street - you counter steer to the left when you're on the gas and then have to jerk to the right to counter steer the pull to the left in between shifts - it makes for a very squirrelly ride!

I know it's not a tire issue because at the track I'm running M & H slicks and on the street I'm running Brigdestone Potenza's, and the car exhibits the same problems with both sets of tires.

Let me know if you find anything.

[Speedeuphoria]

so you guys want to post what kind of fluid you were using

[Pat]

5w30

Pulled the diff out. No play, bearings were ok, but looking into the access holes on the quaife itself, it seemed like the helical gears were a bit galled up on the edge towards the case. It's really difficult to see, but it was there and the markings on the gears were deep enough to feel with a small screwdriver reaching through the access holes.

I don't know what they looked like when they were brand new, but I'd be surprised if they weren't originally a machined, smooth surface.

I'll do more inspection tomorrow.

[MiniMopar]

Redline MTL in the Daytona (Quaife), generic 5W-30 in the CSX (OBX).

[Aries_Turbo]

a quaife will amplify alignment issues. they are great in a straight line but they make things really difficult when you have different suspension settings on each side of the car and/or different traction surfaces under each wheel.

Brian

[Ondonti]

I got my clutch issue fixed and my car is having this exact problem. Darting left and right when you try to correct the initial movement. First time it happened when i was paying attention, it almost left the road. I tried again two more times and had to let off the gas. Turned the boost back down to 6 and the problem is not as bad.

I am a bit afraid of taking the car to the track now because I know the problems I have in 3rd gear on the street will happen in first and 2nd gear at the track on slicks. Maybe it will just pull to the right at the track like it did when the clutch was slipping.

I am hoping it is an issue of alignment for me and the LSD is just "amplifying" the problem.

[John B]

Is anyone having this problem with 413s and ATF?

[turbovanman²]

Is anyone having this problem with 413s and ATF?

OBX and slicks or street tires, ZERO pulling, :amen:

[Ondonti]

I have an appointment with an alignment shop tomorrow but I have a feeling its not going to help if the LSD is sick.

[boost geek]

OBX and slicks or street tires, ZERO pulling, :amen:

No problems with mine either.

[Ondonti]

I put some 225/60r15's from my Spirit on my Duster to test out before my alignment appointment. It seems to have taken most of the problem out. Hopefully the alignment shop can do the rest. Car was still pretty loose on a lower quality road.

The preload on the washers in my OBX doesnt appear to be very tight though as the tires barely follow each other when you have the car up on jackstands.

[MiniMopar]

A new OBX will act like a locked diff due to the poor finish on the sun gears and other parts. Once broken in, it will act like an open diff when its up on stands. It requires some torque between the axles and the carrier for the sun gears to do their thing. The friction from the washers doesn't amount to much.

"Torque Biasing" not "Limited Slip" :thumb:

[Ondonti]

Well at least I dont have to worry about that part :D
I will have to make sure I use the right terminology in the future since we all seem to be bad at that.

[MiniMopar]

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's an LSD, but not a limited slip differential. :yuck:

[Ondonti]

Passenger inner tie rod is bent, so thats why it dives to the right when I launch at the track.

Alignment guy thinks the car is too light in the rear. That means the rear gets loose and tries to come around when I correct any torque steer (like from the bent tie rod). I was a bit scared to let him drive the car but him driving it changed his mind about the problem.

The car gets loose when braking too so this version of the truth seems to make sense.

My quick fix right now is taking the rear tire pressure from 34psi to 26psi. The tires still dont sit down on all their tread though. I might try even lower tire pressure, maybe 20 psi. He suggested putting a few hundred pounds of weight in the rear of the car since according to him "the rear of the car weighs like 100 pounds" but long term thats not something I can easily do. This might mean that in the future I would want to run slightly wider tires in the rear, especially for street driving. I am sure drag skinnies work great at the track, but those tires are made to grab the track surface well.

[turbovanman²]

Ok, adding weight to the rear makes no sense unless your trying to bottom out the rear suspension so it won't move. As we all know, when launching, the front lifts up and the rear squats, hence why RWD works so much better, lol!

[MiniMopar]

My CSX gets loose when I'm on the hooks or cornering HARD and let off the gas, but going straight the car should not change direction when you lift. I suppose if there is a lot of suspension movement in the back and your track bar is not the right length, strange things could happen. Don't see to many people complaining about that, though.

[Ondonti]

Well once the car is accelerating, its not putting all that weight on the rear like it did when you first hit the gas, and the bent tie rod causes torque steer to one side, which ends up in the back end getting loose when I countersteer. I almost had the whole back end come around on a dusty road on 8psi. I wasnt really paying attention to what was happening though so I didnt think about much besides not dieing. The alignment guy apparently purposely tossed the car side to side while accelerating and found the same problem.

It has 195 wide tires in the back and only half of the tread was touching the ground when it was @ 34psi tire pressure.

It only gets loose when I try to correct the torque steer. Better tires help mask the torque steer because it prevents the tires from spinning but it really just needs a new tie rod installed so it wont need massive correction under acceleration. I didnt know a tie rod would cause that pulling problem but what he described happens when the tie rod is bad is exactly what happens when I launch at the track. My car goes right towards the wall every time.

I think the reason why this was not apparent before is that in the cold weather when I was driving the car (never put mileage on the car besides driving to the track during warm weather before) colder roads meant 3rd gear just spun both tires, but now the tires barely loose traction and it makes the car pull....and I am sure the OBX just makes the side to side action while accelerating worse.

Bent tie rod is pretty obvious but I would never have known unless someone pointed it out to me as a problem.

[Ondonti]

a quaife will amplify alignment issues. they are great in a straight line but they make things really difficult when you have different suspension settings on each side of the car and/or different traction surfaces under each wheel.

Brian

Do you have more thoughts or explanation on Torque Biasing Differentials exacerbating small problems somewhere else on the car.

Maybe the open diff transmission is masking the problem on Pat's car...but maybe his Quaiffe is just sick :(

[MiniMopar]

I think there a lot of forces at work. If you think about what the diff is trying to do...it directs torque towards the wheel that is turning slower than the other...the exact opposite of what an open diff does.

For example, when accelerating while turning hard, you will tend to light up the inside tire on an open diff. The TBD will bias torque towards the outside tire once the inside tire spins up and matches the outside tire. If the suspension is out of whack, this is going to have the effect of amplifying the forces on the steering system because the outside wheel is getting more traction.

The TBD has another weird thing that happens if the difference in traction between the two wheel exceeds the bias ratio of the diff. Once that happens, excess torque gets transferred to the inner wheel again which will make it spin up anyway. The effect is a sudden increase in understeer on a FWD drive car, so maybe that is part of it.