TU's QS Option Discussed

[bansheenut420]

I was told by chirs this turbo will flow 39lb/min. Its got a wheel clip so it is a little laggy. I am selling it becasue I have a big new shiney holset hx40pro going on it. :D The exhaust is .48a/r

[2.216VTurbo]

I was told by chirs this turbo will flow 39lb/min. Its got a wheel clip so it is a little laggy. I am selling it becasue I have a big new shiney holset hx40pro going on it. :D The exhaust is .48a/r

Uh, it's not the wheel clip making it laggy, by chance did you mention it has the "Quick Spool option" Let's see, why would a .48 housing S70 have lag? Properly set up, that thing should spool by 2500 RPMs. Quick spool:rolleyes:

[Chris W]

Uh, it's not the wheel clip making it laggy, by chance did you mention it has the "Quick Spool option" Let's see, why would a .48 housing S70 have lag? Properly set up, that thing should spool by 2500 RPMs. Quick spool:rolleyes:

Alan, I am TIRED of you publicly stating your opinions about our Quick Spool option when you have very little knowledge of how or why it works. You initially brought this up on the other site and I could not address your questions because I do not post there anymore. I tried to address your questions privately at the last So Cal meeting and you didn't have time. I tried to address your questions in a phone call and you cut me short. I have listened to your "theories" before why can't you open your mind to hear how this works instead of continuing to bash something we have proof works? Why don't you be a little more diplomatic about it and start a thread about your doubts in the TU section so I can properly address your concerns without continuing to go from thread to thread trashing something you have no clue about?

Chris-TU

[bradp]

I can attest to it working. I could definately tell a difference on my wagon WHEN it was running. It boosted super fast, definately quicker spool up than a Mitsu.

[iTurbo]

+1. I had a TII turbo with the option on my Omni GLH Turbo. Spooled instantly even with large NPR intercooler and 3-4 ft of 2.75" diameter pipe.

[bansheenut420]

I have no idea the reason why, but both of the RTs with s70's that I have ridden in were on the laggy side. It made up for it up top. I dont know if its the larger wheels (which I could understand), the wheel clip (which I could understand) or what. But it was. There were no setup issues with either of the cars.

[Chris W]

What irks me the most is that Alan managed to have photos of our Quick Spool option posted for everyone to see. This is sensitive company information that we intentionally blur out on our website to avoid copy cat vendors from stealing more of our ideas. I am sure he would be upset with me if I purchased the medical equipment he sells and shared it with his competitors. Alan never approached me first with his questions or concerns. He went straight to a forum he knew I will no longer post on just to announce his theories on our QS option knowing that I would not be able to dispute his statements.:mad: Now he's lurking around T-M doing the same. :mad::mad:

Chris-TU

[2.216VTurbo]

What irks me the most is that Alan managed to have photos of our Quick Spool option posted for everyone to see. This is sensitive company information that we intentionally blur out on our website to avoid copy cat vendors from stealing more of our ideas. I am sure he would be upset with me if I purchased the medical equipment he sells and shared it with his competitors. Alan never approached me first with his questions or concerns. He went straight to a forum he knew I will no longer post on just to announce his theories on our QS option knowing that I would not be able to dispute his statements.:mad: Now he's lurking around T-M doing the same. :mad::mad:

Chris-TU

Well, it's my OPINION that if you cut the 'driver fins' (the inducer of the turbine wheel, the big part) off the wheel, it takes them out of the path of the HIGHEST velocity gas flow inside that housing, the stream that comes off the Volute. The trade off for the reduction in wheel weight (inertia) to improve spool (or quickspool if you prefer) is way too far negatively offset by the inducer tips being removed from that highest velocity gas flow. I guess it's also Tyler's OPINION too because he sold me the S70 for the reason that it 'wouldn't spool' and Corey's as well because he said this turbo is a 'little laggy'... Should a .48 housing S70 turbo be a little laggy on a TIII motor? It's my OPINION that it shouldn't. Oh, and the S70 turbo pictures I showed are of a turbo I own, maybe I signed a confidentiality agreement and forgot about it?? That turbo is on my Rampage now, it works great and spools 14PSI by 2600-2700 RPMs, I put a STOCK uncut TIII turbine wheel in place of the QS wheel and it's my OPINION that's what fixed it. Internet forums are composed of OPINIONS. When I get a phone call from someone trying to pressure me into not posting my opinions on the forums, I just hang up.

Yeah we talked about the QS option at the last SoCal meet, you have your view and I have mine, we are at an impass on that. I have a possible solution that would cost you nothing more than a few hours labor since you have a dyno and all the neccessary tools. Build two identical turbos, add the QS option to one test them back to back. Should be pretty easy to do with your cast header, changing turbos is a snap with that quality piece. A couple ten second in car vids of the boost gauge/tach would change my mind if the QS turbo comes out on top. I'll be near the TU shop in Tucson for 3 days next week, I'll do the turbo swap wrenching if you want...

[Chris W]

Alan,

It was also your opinion that our $370. Extreme HP+ yellow clutches were the same as $159. T2/T3 hybrid clutches except for the paint.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=286048&postcount=72

You tried to prove your point by photographing the part# on the pressure plate cover which has absolutely nothing to do with the fulcrum points underneath. That's like saying a stock TII turbo will perform exactly the same as a TII Super 70 turbo just because they share the same compressor housing. Then you photograph yourself measuring the thickness of the PP drive straps which have nothing to do with PP performance or torque capacity. Why did you show the strap thickness are the same Alan? What was it supposed to prove? Do you even know what drive straps do?


Well, it's my OPINION that if you cut the 'driver fins' (the inducer of the turbine wheel, the big part) off the wheel, it takes them out of the path of the HIGHEST velocity gas flow inside that housing, the stream that comes off the Volute. ...

This is the part of your opinion that is incorrect. I was trying to explain this to you in private at the LA meeting but it was your choice not to listen. I am not going to be baited to reveal company sensitive info on a public forum, but, I would be more then happy to share it with Ken and Frank. TU has spent significant time and money determining the best areas to remove for enhancing the spooling characteristics of these turbos. Two customers have already come forward in this thread confirming it works and I am sure you will find more out there if you just do a little research. TU does NOT offer products or services to the public that we do not believe in ourselves. For example, we do not offer T4 Compressor wheels in stock T3 Compressor housings because we have independent documentation and our own studies showing that it causes excessive outlet temperatures. We can easily add these turbos to our website but we don't because of those facts.

We discovered the Quick Spool option by accident several years ago. One of the local professional sand drag racers had some debris go through his engine which damaged the turbine wheel. Since it was late in the season and the owner intended to upgrade his turbo to the Garrett DBB version the following year, the damaged fins were just "cleaned up", turbine shaft/wheels rebalanced, bearings and seals replaced and the turbo was reinstalled. Sand Drag racing is limited to 300 feet and is pretty incredible to watch. The Top Fuel drivers can achieve 2.5 second ETs at over 135MPH. With no other changes other then the turbine wheel modifications the customer improved his best ET by .10. In his class this type of improvement usually costs thousands of dollars and we did it for $40. With this knowledge in hand we invested a significant amount of time testing and researching which areas would have the greatest effect on spool up time without effecting the integrity of the turbo. We have offered this upgrade for many years now with positive results and customer feedback. Adding a clip to a turbine wheel does decrease spool up and a QS option helps bring some (not all) of that back. Since the examples here involve both clipped and Quick Spooled turbine wheels I believe the customers expectations were for the QS to completely compensate for the lag caused by the clipped turbine wheel option. That is simply not possible.

A little history on my background-

I graduated from SUNY Farmingdale with an Associates Degree in Aerospace Technology and Embry-Riddle Aeronutical University in Prescott, AZ with a Bachelors Degree in Aeronautical Science. I studied extensively in turbine engine designs, repairs and overhauls. I was also fortunate enough to have access to wind tunnel testing equipment which provided additional information on wing/blade designs.

Before the Quick Spool Option was even offered on our site I reviewed it with my Turbine Engine instructor. I have also discussed it with a member of this board who is an AirFrame & PowerPlant Technician at Cessna in Kansas. I am sure he will chime in to this thread to back me up.

The bottom line here is we invested in the R&D prior to offering the service to the public and we have had many customers confirming their turbo's spooling characteristics were improved after this option was added.

Chris-TU

[2.216VTurbo]

...So can I help out with that back to back test next week then? I am always willing to learn something new about turbo cars...

Thanks for the reminder on that clutch, I still need to have the clamping pressure checked at a local clutch shop. If the yellow super duper has more clamping than the $159. Dealers Equipment clutch, great, I'll post it in that clutch thread. They say seeing is believing, I'd sure like to see those fulcrum point mods (or the increased clamping load) with my own eyes before I run that clutch. I've tried with a light and an inspection mirror and can't.

I don't mind paying a premium price for good parts Chris, that's why I am a TU customer, but if I feel like I am not getting what I paid for, I'll sure be vocal about it and the forums are just one way to do that. BTW, How come I paid $400. cash (No receipt out of the trunk of the Lexus) for a clutch/PP you said is only $370.:o

Interesting sand drags annectote, you know, I've heard you can freshen up worn cylinder walls with Bon-Ami powder poured into a running motor:D

What's the poster in Fox Mulder's office say, "I want to believe"... Now about that lesson in Pressure Plate drive straps you offered??

[bansheenut420]

My turbo was the one that was wheel cipped. Tylers was not. And there really was no difference in the spool times between our turbos, they both got full boost around 4k. 4k on a .48a/r housing. And being it was on two seperate cars, there was no "setup" problem. I knew that the wheel clip would cause some lag. But, if the wheel clip was going to take away what the qiuck spool was going to do. Why was it offered it me? :confused:

[Juggy]

But, if the wheel clip was going to take away what the qiuck spool was going to do. Why was it offered it me? :confused:


you didnt opt for a .63 housing (16valves?? why not?!)....so the exhaust wheel clipping will help that .48 housing move more air, in exchange for a little more lag...

[bansheenut420]

you didnt opt for a .63 housing (16valves?? why not?!)....so the exhaust wheel clipping will help that .48 housing move more air, in exchange for a little more lag...

If they made one, that was a direct drop in I would have. In fact, I did even pay for the upgrade, only to get a call saying. We dont have .63 housings for the t3. And I wasnt about to dump more than what I already had into a turbo that I knew wouldnt be on there for long. And the lag thing. Tylers turbo didnt have the wheel clip, and mine did. They both got full spool around 4k. Nothing in a .48 housing should take that long.

[turbovanman²]

If they made one, that was a direct drop in I would have. In fact, I did even pay for the upgrade, only to get a call saying. We dont have .63 housings for the t3. And I wasnt about to dump more than what I already had into a turbo that I knew wouldnt be on there for long. And the lag thing. Tylers turbo didnt have the wheel clip, and mine did. They both got full spool around 4k. Nothing in a .48 housing should take that long.

Isn't the 70 trim a bad match for a TIII?

I know I had a 60 trim in there and it was laggy, the 50 trim was much better, stage III, .63 housings.

[iTurbo]

What is the 'Super 70' compressor anyways? Is this actually a 70-trim T3 or something else? Is it a Turbonetics wheel like the Super 60 is? I can't find a map for a Super 70 anywhere.

[tmef]

I run an S70 with the quick spool option. I can tell you the QS option design is sound, proven and will spool the turbo faster. The physics behind it are rather simple. BTW, 2.216VTurbo summed this all up in the second post with "Properly set up, that thing should spool by 2500 RPM". Proper set up being key. I hit full boost well before 3000 rpm. Quick spool works!

[butchsuppe]

I can tell you the QS option design is sound, proven and will spool the turbo faster

I know a little something about airflow from the days I worked for a company that used compressed airflow in their eqiupment. the QS idea as explain to me is almost the same as what I was tought about airflow many years ago. and yes it's been PROVEN it works. If a person were to use the same procedure while consuming alcohol he'd get wasted pretty fast.:eyebrows:

[MiniMopar]

What is the 'Super 70' compressor anyways? Is this actually a 70-trim T3 or something else? Is it a Turbonetics wheel like the Super 60 is? I can't find a map for a Super 70 anywhere.

There are a couple of different versions, but TU's is a GN wheel in a stock Chrysler cover machined to fit. The exducer is 70mm, while all the other T03 wheel we use are 60mm. The true "Super 60" has a 55mm inducer compared to the stock 40mm inducer. I'm not sure how big the S70 inducer is, but it is in the neighborhood of the Super 60.

EDIT: the ancient info on my website says the S70 inducer is 50mm. Don't know if that's right anymore....

[MiniMopar]

I also have the quick spool on my S70 with a .63 A/R housing and I find to be fairly laggy. I hits 5psi pretty quick, 2500 or so, and SLOWLY ramps to 21psi by around 4k. I even tried this in 5th gear to load it up as much as possible. A little scary on snow tires. I have nothing to compare it to, though.

Since the exducer is like 17% bigger, some inertia is expected but I am left to wonder if the stage I turbine just can't make enough torque to spin the compressor soon enough due to its steep grade. Anyone running a S70 with a stage II turbine?

[tryingbe]

If they made one, that was a direct drop in I would have. In fact, I did even pay for the upgrade, only to get a call saying. We dont have .63 housings for the t3.


Actually, there are .63 of TIII type turbine housing made. Extremely rare, but they do exist.


I have quick spool on my stock TII Garrett mate with a 2.5L, 2 piece intake, smoothed out exhaust manifold, stock 782 head, A555, 2.5 inch swingvalve. Boost starts at 1800rpm, full boost 14 psi by 2600- 2800rpm

Works for me.

[GLHNSLHT2]

My true S60 on my 2.5/ported exhaust manny/2.5SV/stock head/stock 2 piece starts building at 2000-2100 and is at full song(20psi)by 2500.

[bansheenut420]

I run an S70 with the quick spool option. I can tell you the QS option design is sound, proven and will spool the turbo faster. The physics behind it are rather simple. BTW, 2.216VTurbo summed this all up in the second post with "Properly set up, that thing should spool by 2500 RPM". Proper set up being key. I hit full boost well before 3000 rpm. Quick spool works!
I assure you there is nothing wrong with my or Tylers setup. I still have my s70, and would love to put it on another t3 car, and see how it acts. I bet it acts the same. I am not arguing weather or not the qs option works or not.


Actually, there are .63 of TIII type turbine housing made. Extremely rare, but they do exist.


I have quick spool on my stock TII Garrett mate with a 2.5L, 2 piece intake, smoothed out exhaust manifold, stock 782 head, A555, 2.5 inch swingvalve. Boost starts at 1800rpm, full boost 14 psi by 2600- 2800rpm

Works for me.
Well, none were aviable when I did mine. And, had it been I probably wouldnt have spent the money for it. Because then it would have been the same cost as fwd's drop in hybrid kit for the T3's.

[iTurbo]

I have the QS on a TII turbo in my Omni. Car's got 2.5L TI, no balance shafts, 3" exhuast, 3" TU swingvalve, large NPR intercooler, 4+ feet of 2.75 charge pipes, 3" air intake, and A525 w/3.05 FD. On the dyno I was running 14 psi and it made 198 WHP/270 WTQ. Peak torque was just under 3000 RPM. I honestly felt it spooled very fast and if i spooled any faster it would only have been less drivable.

But what I wonder is that if this is such a great idea, why aren't the turbo manufacturers designing this feature into the wheel to begin with?

[tryingbe]

Alright, did the boost test again in 5th gear in Daylight.

1600 - 1700 rpm or so boost will start.
2300 - 2400 rpm or so full boost of 14psi is there.


Digital Dash isn't known for their accuracy when you want to see what RPM you are at and the way I have my boost gauge in the center console doesn't help either.





But what I wonder is that if this is such a great idea, why aren't the turbo manufacturers designing this feature into the wheel to begin with?

Actually, if you ever go to a turbo shop and they have one of the big newer truck turbo apart, check out the turbine wheel. You'll be surprised at what you'll see.

[iTurbo]

I'll have to do that. There are a lot of diesel shops around here that deal with big trucks. Everything from tractor trailers, generators, to huge earth movers for the mines.

I'd love to try the 5th gear test on my Omni but it's all apart right now. It was hitting peak torque right around 3000 RPM, but I think I was actually hitting full boost well before that and the dyno didn't even start until 2200 RPM or so. Runs were made in 3rd gear too.

[moparzrule]

There are a couple of different versions, but TU's is a GN wheel in a stock Chrysler cover machined to fit. The exducer is 70mm, while all the other T03 wheel we use are 60mm. The true "Super 60" has a 55mm inducer compared to the stock 40mm inducer. I'm not sure how big the S70 inducer is, but it is in the neighborhood of the Super 60.

EDIT: the ancient info on my website says the S70 inducer is 50mm. Don't know if that's right anymore....

Super 60 has inducer of 48.5mm and exducer of 60. The S70 has 50/70. The super 60 flows 36 lb/min, and the S70 flows 39.
Stock T2 turbo is a 50 trim T3 and has a 42.5mm inducer, regular 60 trim has 46.5mm. A 50 trim T04E doesn't even have a 55mm inducer!
I had a super 70 with .63 turbine on my daytona, on a 300 WHP setup it spooled to full boost of 22 PSI at about 3000 RPM. Super 60 spools faster because the compressor wheel is much lighter, but the S70 flows more and can make more HP.
On my setup, on the dyno, after 5 pulls at 19 PSI my dual stock IC was probably heat soaked and intake temps peaked at 117 degrees on a 90 degree humid day. IMO, the S70 is very a very efficient turbo and is great for a street car. I actually liked the slight lag, my stock T2 turbo spooled way too fast and just blew the tires away on the street.
I heard something before that I agree with. For optimal power you need a turbo that spools to full boost after 3000 RPM but before 4000 RPM. If it's under 3000, your turbo is too small and probably causing a restriction, IE you would make more power with a larger turbo and it would be worth it. And if it's over 4000, the turbo is too large and is doing more harm than good.

[Chris W]

Well, it's my OPINION that if you cut the 'driver fins' (the inducer of the turbine wheel, the big part) off the wheel, it takes them out of the path of the HIGHEST velocity gas flow inside that housing, the stream that comes off the Volute. ..

The maximum exhaust velocity affecting the shrouded turbine wheel is at the exducer (smaller diameter) where the diameter gets smaller and the fins neck down. The gap between the fins at the inducer (larger diameter) is much greater in comparison. Exhaust velocity increases when there is a restriction much like when you place your thumb over a garden hose. This is a FACT not an OPINION. Using an unshrouded steamboat wheel for comparison in your anology on TD.com does not help your argument Alan. Your theory is flawed.

We have had several customers already step up and acknowledge that there is a noticeable decrease in spool up time with our QS option. Some customers may notice it more then others based on overall component configuration and tuning capabilities.

A turbine wheel clip increases the opening on the turbine exducer to relieve the back pressure a larger compressor wheel will create. The combination of slower exhaust flow at the clipped exducer and the added weight of a larger compressor wheel cannot be offset by our QS option. Additional lag will prevail at lower RPMs as the power curve is shifted to higher RPMs.

I tried to make the explanations as simple as possible so even if someone was half tanked they would still understand it. :thumb:

Chris-TU

Admin- Please close this thread. If anyone has any further questions on this subject please give us a call. I am tired of having to waste my time on these pointless threads in order to prove something that many people already know works.

[BadAssPerformance]

Thread closed per request.