Custom cal tuning help

[METZ]

Hello,
I would like to get my Rampage fun to drive again. I am experiencing a rich idle, like 8 lights lit on the narrow band idling. If I let her warm up to operating temperature and shut it off, when I try to restart I get an awfull rich condition, black smoke, sounds like a sticking choke from a carb vehicle. If I take off it will eventually clear up and run fine or if it stalls out and I restart again it runs fine. The only code I'm getting is 62. What is a code 62?
I have purchased a wideband but I'm afraid to install it with it being that rich I don't want to mess it up.
Here is my setup. Custom cal from Shelgame for SMEC, +40 injectors, three bar map. I am running stock fuel presure.
I have replaced all the vacuum hoses and checked the CTS and map sensor. They are all good. At cruising speed it runs fine.

Is this something I can tune to fix? I have burned a chip with success and I have DCAL and Chem setup but I'm not confident that I know what I'm doing just yet. Has anyone else experienced this?

Thanks,
Bob

[risen]

Hello,
I would like to get my Rampage fun to drive again. I am experiencing a rich idle, like 8 lights lit on the narrow band idling. If I let her warm up to operating temperature and shut it off, when I try to restart I get an awfull rich condition, black smoke, sounds like a sticking choke from a carb vehicle. If I take off it will eventually clear up and run fine or if it stalls out and I restart again it runs fine. The only code I'm getting is 62. What is a code 62?
I have purchased a wideband but I'm afraid to install it with it being that rich I don't want to mess it up.
Here is my setup. Custom cal from Shelgame for SMEC, +40 injectors, three bar map. I am running stock fuel presure.
I have replaced all the vacuum hoses and checked the CTS and map sensor. They are all good. At cruising speed it runs fine.

Is this something I can tune to fix? I have burned a chip with success and I have DCAL and Chem setup but I'm not confident that I know what I'm doing just yet. Has anyone else experienced this?

Thanks,
Bob

From looking at Russ' page with the code listings, I'm not sure that there is a code 62. Can you double check to make sure that you have the code right? Wild guess, maybe your baro solenoid is sticking?

[ShelGame]

I think 62 is related to the Emission Maint Reminder Light. Some of my older cals may have that, as I hadn't figured out what that option flag was for until more recently. It's nothing to worry about, if it's set.

Also, there was a fuel table I missed scaling in my older base cals. It only affects cold start, though, and wouldn't be the cause for the warm re-start richness. I'm not sure what's the cause of that.

[METZ]

I think 62 is related to the Emission Maint Reminder Light. Some of my older cals may have that, as I hadn't figured out what that option flag was for until more recently. It's nothing to worry about, if it's set.

Also, there was a fuel table I missed scaling in my older base cals. It only affects cold start, though, and wouldn't be the cause for the warm re-start richness. I'm not sure what's the cause of that.

Risen, yep it's a code 62.

Thanks rob. Ok, so that rules out code 62. I wonder if my injectors are flowing more then they are supposed too?
The strange thing is that you actually want it to stall out. Do the restart and it runs great.
I would like to try your turbonator cal if this is going to be hard to figure out.

Bob

[chilort]

Too much fuel pressure?

[MiniMopar]

Does your fuel pressure drop correctly at idle? Are you running an upgraded pump? I had a similar issue when doing an LM cal for the CSX as well. Had to massage the cold start tables a bit to take more fuel out at higher temps.

[METZ]

Does your fuel pressure drop correctly at idle? Are you running an upgraded pump? I had a similar issue when doing an LM cal for the CSX as well. Had to massage the cold start tables a bit to take more fuel out at higher temps.


Russ,
Would I be capable of doing the changes in the cold start tables? I really want to learn how to tune one of these things but my knowledge is pretty basic.
I'm pretty sure the pressure was ok. It's been a while since I messed with this but I believe I checked that because that's what I thought was wrong too. I have the 255 pump but I haven't changed the return line to a bigger one or anything. Why is it when it stalls out the restart runs good? Could the pressure have bled off in 2 seconds?

[moparzrule]

A narrowband doesn't read at an idle, only at WOT. Actually it sounds like you need a new O2 sensor because at an idle your O2 sensor should be flashing back and forth not staying on 1 light.
The O2 sensor code doesn't always get thrown when there's a bad O2. But, check all your wiring to the O2 sensor first.
Quick question though, how did you hook up your O2 sensor? Did you solder the connections or just use something like butt connectors?

[risen]

I don't think scaling your own table will be that hard at all. You just open a copy of the cal up in Dcal, select the right table from the left hand side. Then in the right pane, just click on the points and move them up or down the required amount. If Rob says what table he suspects it is, one of us can probably post some screenshots or direct you in a better way on how to scale it.

As to it being your o2 sensor, I'm not sure whether it's the cause of the problem or the result, but I'd lean twards a result (lol, bad pun). Normally the o2 isn't used until the car is properly warmed up, in which case it kind of rules it out for the cold start problem. And the o2 is ignored at WOT, it's straight table lookup for fueling. Narrowbands don't read accurately other than stoic and you don't want stoic @ WOT.

[METZ]

A narrowband doesn't read at an idle, only at WOT. Actually it sounds like you need a new O2 sensor because at an idle your O2 sensor should be flashing back and forth not staying on 1 light.
The O2 sensor code doesn't always get thrown when there's a bad O2. But, check all your wiring to the O2 sensor first.
Quick question though, how did you hook up your O2 sensor? Did you solder the connections or just use something like butt connectors?

Hi, Thanks for response. The O2 does flash but very slow at idle, mainly on 8 lights but between 7,8 and 9. At crusie it flashes rapidly like it should. The connections were soldered. I did check the grounds also. This all started when the setup was changed from stock 2bar computer to 3 bar computer. the O2 behaved normally before the change. Although it is possible for it to go bad at any time.
I starting to think that the problem is in the cold start table. Rob mentioned there might be a problem there and so did Russ. It seems as though if you shut her down for a few minutes like to go into a store for 5 or 10 minutes and then try to restart it sounds awful. Like raw fuel being dumped. EGT's drop dramatically.

Bob

[METZ]

I think 62 is related to the Emission Maint Reminder Light. Some of my older cals may have that, as I hadn't figured out what that option flag was for until more recently. It's nothing to worry about, if it's set.

Also, there was a fuel table I missed scaling in my older base cals. It only affects cold start, though, and wouldn't be the cause for the warm re-start richness. I'm not sure what's the cause of that.

Rob,
Just for the heck of it. I would like to correct any thing that may be wrong with the cold start table. Maybe my engine is running on the cool side causing this problem to pop up. Would I be able to fix this with dcal or is it best left to a professional.

Thanks,
Bob

[METZ]

I don't think scaling your own table will be that hard at all. You just open a copy of the cal up in Dcal, select the right table from the left hand side. Then in the right pane, just click on the points and move them up or down the required amount. If Rob says what table he suspects it is, one of us can probably post some screenshots or direct you in a better way on how to scale it.

As to it being your o2 sensor, I'm not sure whether it's the cause of the problem or the result, but I'd lean twards a result (lol, bad pun). Normally the o2 isn't used until the car is properly warmed up, in which case it kind of rules it out for the cold start problem. And the o2 is ignored at WOT, it's straight table lookup for fueling. Narrowbands don't read accurately other than stoic and you don't want stoic @ WOT.

Thanks, I will probably need some help once I know which table. :nod:

[moparzrule]

Hi, Thanks for response. The O2 does flash but very slow at idle, mainly on 8 lights but between 7,8 and 9. At crusie it flashes rapidly like it should. The connections were soldered. I did check the grounds also. This all started when the setup was changed from stock 2bar computer to 3 bar computer. the O2 behaved normally before the change. Although it is possible for it to go bad at any time.


It's best to ground directly at the battery.

Stock ECU's are made to mask small problems, custom cal's amplify problems. Your O2 could just be on it's way out, sometimes they work on and off like that.
But, the more you say about the symptoms the more it points toward the cal. I was just being subjective. The cal being so rich could throw the O2 sensor off and not make it bounce at an idle.

[MiniMopar]

Russ,
Would I be capable of doing the changes in the cold start tables? I really want to learn how to tune one of these things but my knowledge is pretty basic.
I'm pretty sure the pressure was ok. It's been a while since I messed with this but I believe I checked that because that's what I thought was wrong too. I have the 255 pump but I haven't changed the return line to a bigger one or anything. Why is it when it stalls out the restart runs good? Could the pressure have bled off in 2 seconds?

Sure. Just make small changes at a time. Looking over my notes, I tweaked a few of them but settled on ColdEnrichmentFuelCurveA. The 3 tables are part of a big calculation that is detailed in the TBL file notes. In practice, curve A had the most effect on my problem.

EDIT: also check FuelBatteryOffset, StartFuelPrimeShot, and StartFuelMultiplierPerEPP. On the Daytona I had to change these to ADD more fuel at startup when warm.

[MiniMopar]

Stock ECU's are made to mask small problems, custom cal's amplify problems. Your O2 could just be on it's way out, sometimes they work on and off like that. But, the more you say about the symptoms the more it points toward the cal. I was just being subjective. The cal being so rich could throw the O2 sensor off and not make it bounce at an idle.

That's true, but I also think that the combination of the 3bar cal and the big injectors makes errors already present in the cal show up a bit more. Many of the tables are only 8 bit values and the calculations are rarely better than 16 bits. With all the multiplying the errors start to add up.

Also, it seems like the +40 injectors behave differently at the low pulse widths needed at idle...their behavior doesn't necessarily "scale", if you know what I mean. Scaling all the right parameters is the first step, but some hand massaging is inevitably required. The wide band is really useful for this.

[2.216VTurbo]

Ya know Metz, codes and cal tables are all Greek to me but that is one damn nice looking Rampage:hail: It's and original DC/Cal Look truck right?

[moparzrule]

That's true, but I also think that the combination of the 3bar cal and the big injectors makes errors already present in the cal show up a bit more. Many of the tables are only 8 bit values and the calculations are rarely better than 16 bits. With all the multiplying the errors start to add up.

Also, it seems like the +40 injectors behave differently at the low pulse widths needed at idle...their behavior doesn't necessarily "scale", if you know what I mean. Scaling all the right parameters is the first step, but some hand massaging is inevitably required. The wide band is really useful for this.

100% agreed with everything you said here.

[ShelGame]

OK, the table at 8143 (IdleErrorPWFromRPM) is the one that I missed scaling in some early cals. I checked yours, though, and I did get it.

But, the T2 cals typically have all points in this table set to 0. So, you could try that as well. For the 2.2 Turbonator cal data, I used the MP T2 value (0 retuen for all points).

It's an idle control table. It come into play when the computer is trying to control the idle speed with spark and fuel. So, it would have an effect on idle mixture for sure.

[METZ]

OK, the table at 8143 (IdleErrorPWFromRPM) is the one that I missed scaling in some early cals. I checked yours, though, and I did get it.

But, the T2 cals typically have all points in this table set to 0. So, you could try that as well. For the 2.2 Turbonator cal data, I used the MP T2 value (0 retuen for all points).

It's an idle control table. It come into play when the computer is trying to control the idle speed with spark and fuel. So, it would have an effect on idle mixture for sure.

Rob,
So if I understand this, all I need to do is go into that table in DCAL and set all points to zero. I will try this first. I don't want to change a lot and not know what did what.

Matt,
I don't believe I have the O2 ground going to the battery. If you think this would help I will get that changed.

Russ,
I will try to make some changes with the tables you suggested after I try what Rob said.

Alan,
Thanks man. She takes a good picture but it needs to go back to the paint shop. It's just a plain jane Rampage with lots of Shelby Charger parts.

[moparzrule]

Matt,
I don't believe I have the O2 ground going to the battery. If you think this would help I will get that changed.



Most people say that with a narrowband it's not accurate anyway, but with my Dawes grounded on the battery I've never had trouble with any WOT lean conditions. The one time I was in the red, I did melt a piston, but yeah that was totally my fault the Dawes was doing it's job! Found out later the feul pressure regulator was faulty, it stayed at base pressure even in boost, so it really was lean!
The only real problem with a narrowband IMO is that it's a WOT only gauge, so for tuning a custom cal at an idle and cruising it's worthless.

[Turbohead]

I don't think scaling your own table will be that hard at all. You just open a copy of the cal up in Dcal, select the right table from the left hand side. Then in the right pane, just click on the points and move them up or down the required amount. If Rob says what table he suspects it is, one of us can probably post some screenshots or direct you in a better way on how to scale it.

As to it being your o2 sensor, I'm not sure whether it's the cause of the problem or the result, but I'd lean twards a result (lol, bad pun). Normally the o2 isn't used until the car is properly warmed up, in which case it kind of rules it out for the cold start problem. And the o2 is ignored at WOT, it's straight table lookup for fueling. Narrowbands don't read accurately other than stoic and you don't want stoic @ WOT.
If you don't want stoick @ WOT where should it be? I have an Autometer guage. Can't remember the model #. Richer or leaner than stoick and by how much?

[risen]

If you don't want stoick @ WOT where should it be? I have an Autometer guage. Can't remember the model #. Richer or leaner than stoick and by how much?

Richer than stoic. There's varying opinions as to how much richer, but 12.5:1 to 10.5:1 is where most people run. Stoic for gasoline is 14.7:1. Personally, I run my CSX at 11.0:1 @ 20 psi.

Problem is you'll never find a afr ratio other than stoic accurately without a wideband. So unless your guage came with a wideband o2 sensor, it's not going to be much help other than telling you you're rich or lean. It can't really tell you how rich or lean.

[moparzrule]

11:1 is pretty darn rich. 11.5-12:1 is ideal for our cars for optimal power and safety. With 11:1 you are losing power for no extra safety.

[ShelGame]

Also, it seems like the +40 injectors behave differently at the low pulse widths needed at idle...their behavior doesn't necessarily "scale", if you know what I mean. Scaling all the right parameters is the first step, but some hand massaging is inevitably required. The wide band is really useful for this.

The injector latency is definitely different from the stock injectors. The question is - what is the latency curve? Some people scale the latency table just like other fuel tables, but that's not technically correct. The latency is different for each make/model of injector, but it doesn't necessarily scale. At low PW's, the latency is a large portion of the total PW. With bigger injectors, the PW at low engine speeds/loads (ie, idling) becomes even smaller, so the latency is extremely important with big injectors. It would be great if someone could take the initiative to get +20's and +40's latency vs. voltage measured - if they can be measured.

Wish I knew someone at an injector supplier. Hmm, Bosch is right next door...

EDIT: I found a table of injector laceny vs. voltage, but our injectors aren't included on the list. Interestingly enough, our injectors would be near the top of the charts (longer latency). But, we also use a higher fuel pressure than most systems, which tends to increase the latency time.

[risen]

11:1 is pretty darn rich. 11.5-12:1 is ideal for our cars for optimal power and safety. With 11:1 you are losing power for no extra safety.

I've slowly been working the afrs back up from the 10.0:1 that the car started running at to avoid detonation. I must say that I haven't seen much of a power increase between 10 and 11, but maybe my arse-dyno isn't very accurate.

[MiniMopar]

The injector latency is definitely different from the stock injectors. The question is - what is the latency curve? Some people scale the latency table just like other fuel tables, but that's not technically correct. The latency is different for each make/model of injector, but it doesn't necessarily scale. At low PW's, the latency is a large portion of the total PW. With bigger injectors, the PW at low engine speeds/loads (ie, idling) becomes even smaller, so the latency is extremely important with big injectors. It would be great if someone could take the initiative to get +20's and +40's latency vs. voltage measured - if they can be measured.

Wish I knew someone at an injector supplier. Hmm, Bosch is right next door...

EDIT: I found a table of injector laceny vs. voltage, but our injectors aren't included on the list. Interestingly enough, our injectors would be near the top of the charts (longer latency). But, we also use a higher fuel pressure than most systems, which tends to increase the latency time.

That would definitely be the direct approach, LOL. Are the pintles larger as well, or just having to overcome the increased force from the larger orifice? I think also that it may vary somewhat as the "Super 60" injectors have changed more than once. Both of my sets ('99 and '05 vintage) are Bosch but they are not the same Bosch part.