View Full Version : car wont start. got fuel and spark
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 98
hardest engine problem ive ever encountered with any car
put new injectors in my omni. after i put them in my car wouldnt start. i checked the injectors individually but hooking up a tee in the fuel rail to test them. they all sprayed ok and all the connection from the harnes are getting pulse from a noid ligh. i watched each harness terminal fire the injector and have put in a total of 12 injectors including a whole fuel rail from a car that runs. the wierd thing is that the car wont fire off or hit on any of the cylinders. i have spark and fuel. my injector was firing very close to when the spark plug fired with new plugs and bright blue flame. i had them both out to where i could see them take action. why would a car with good spark on all cylinders and good spray on all cylinders not run. it ran before i changed the injecotrs but was running very rich. i took the injectors out and noticed they were cracked at the tip (old plastic tips) it was so bad that gas would get into the oul and blow up my engines so i got some used injectors. I even tried to use the old injectors and still nothing. but im getting gas and spark.now the thing wont even hit on a cylinder. I have two 1986 omnis so i took the computer out of one that runs and nothing changed. what do u think. the injectors i got are seimends brand and have a slightly thinner spray pattern. my other omni runs with the same part # seimens injecotors. im pretty sure the car is in time because it ran before i took the fuel rail out a week ago.
#9
glhx
Naturally Aspirated
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 98
getting spark to all cylinders
compression is 140 across the board
fuel pressure is 55
injectors have a pulse
timing is right on
car was never messed with in timing area to be messed up but checked it anyway.
getting spark and fuel and i dont see why i wouldnt be getting air.
could the turbo be locked up and restricting air.
its almost acting like the car is out of gas but thats definetly not the case.
i have a 5th injector plummed into a tee to check the injector spray pattern
one thing that does catch my attention is that this seems to be a problem that comes and goes. when the car wont start the power loss diagnostic doesnt work. the light works and comes on but the actual codes dont come on when turning the key on and off. what sensor could make a car not start and ahve fire and gas.
thought it could be the neutral safety ground but i have fire and gas
checked inside the cap and rotor and did have 2 plug wires not connecting but when i connected them it did not solve the problem. fuel pump works
. car started and ran before i changed the injector rail. i put the rail bback in and now the car wont start with the new injectors or the old ones.
changed the plugs: the old plugs were a bit worn but still worked before i changed the rail. checked the computer ground
changed computers and nothing did not change the power module. will do that tommorrow
i ahve had problems with the distributor pick up synch in the past but im getting fire out of all the plugs maybe ill replace it anyway.
this problem is crazy
3nglenn
03-02-2006, 06:59 AM
Wow sounds like you've got a lot of the bases covered ! Well to start check that ground strap that goes to the fuel rail from the manifold-make sure its clean and tight. Reason I say this is 'cause you mentioned the car wouldn't start after you changed the fuel rail. Keep us posted and we'll figure this bugger out. :nod: Just one item of many that you might have to work through... G.P.
3nglenn
03-02-2006, 08:14 AM
Bad ASD relay?
i have had 3 fuel rails in the car. they all have a ground connected to them. i wouldnt guess that running a ground to the firewall will help. the engine is already grounded to the firewall. What is the ASD relay. im gonna change the map sensor and the power module but i dont think that will solve it. the one thing that is getting my attention with this problem is the fact that when it starts and runs my diagnostic will work but when it doesnt run the diagnostic wont work. the power loss light itself works. its is nomal (comes on when u turn on the car to tell you it works then shuts off) in the process i broke a wire to my coolant temp sensor and it didnt throw a code. could this be related to my no start problem. several months ago my car was running rich. i gave up on it because i couldnt figure out why. when i went back to mess with it it wouldnt start. then later i came back again and it would start telling me the problem is intermittent. as for the running rich part i looked at the injector and noticed it was cracked at the tip and finally when i had the injector out the tip broke off. could a crack like this make the car flood. the injector has a ball valve inside of it the should seal it so the crack may not matter and may not cause the injector to leak. i was told that the can leak under pressure when the car is off if i have the problem of a leaking injector. hooking the injector into the tee i see no symptoms of leaking under pressure while the car is off. this was the whole reason i took the fuel rail out to change the injector. the ones that came out of the car were mopar and the ones that went back in im assuming were mopar but were made by seimens. the spray pattern was thinner. my car has not been on the road in 6 years and ive kept it all this time. there was large ammounts of gas in the oil. it blew my motor so i put in a used motor and it blew that one too. this current motor i dont want to mess up but i couldnt figure out how the gass was getting there. recently i took out the #2 plug and noticed it was soaked in gas as was the top of the piston. this was the one where the cracked injector came from so i assumed it was the problem. could my turbo be locked up and restrict air enough to make the car not start. i wouldnt think so but with this car i cant ever tell. if anyone has any idea what this problem coor these problems could be, i challenge u to figure it out. in 6 years no one has been able to. i went out and bought another omni to drive because i like them so much. but id like my old one to run. i have a t3 engine to put in it that i have aquired recently but will not put it in until i know what the current problem is. thank u for your time.
3nglenn
03-02-2006, 02:47 PM
Might want to go over http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/electrical-powerfeeds.html for the no-start. check out http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/ecu/asd_re.html for the ASD. Lot of good reading and diagnostics. Hope this helps G.P.
Naturally Aspirated
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 100
it is a ver y recent no start condition. the car ran a week ago it just ran really rich. as of right now im getting spark. and getting so much gas that my plugs are washed down. i think im in a viscious cycle here. i took my throttle body off and checked the spin of the turbo.the shaft is loose when moved up and down. with the throttle body off of the car o looke d at the turbo to see if cranking the car would make the intake side of the turbo move or spin. it did not spin. it does turn by hand but not with cranking the car. i figure all thats left is air. does the turbo need to spin a little to get air. i know my computers are good as i have two cars and one runs so i can interchange parts. the gas in the oil may have ruined the turbo. but what is gas doin in the damn oil. my injectors arent leaking and i get no fault codes. thsi is getting old.
GLHSKEN
03-02-2006, 07:38 PM
Check the impedance of the injectors. I think you have one sticking open. Had that happen to me and cost me an engine...
GLHSKEN
03-02-2006, 07:39 PM
GLHX.. what does that mean.. What is the car?? What is the set-up??
Swap Power modules...
GLHSKEN
03-02-2006, 07:40 PM
did you check the grounds yet...
GLHS592
03-02-2006, 08:09 PM
Sorry I can't offer any more solutions other than have been offered. If you can't get it going any time soon, maybe I could lend you a hand with it. Sometimes working with another person can get problems solved.
Are you in school at Tennessee Tech? I was there from 1993-1997. Check out www.tennesspeed.net.
2.216VTurbo
03-02-2006, 09:15 PM
Did you have the dist cap off during any of this? It is possible to put it on backwards especially if the wires were off the plugs at the time. It has that little notch where the wires for the HEP run thru it but it can get overlooked.
turbovanmanČ
03-02-2006, 09:31 PM
Hmmmmm, as Ken suggest, check the resistance of the injectors-I was going to suggest that also. They are low impedance, should be around 3.0 ohms. Triple check the ground at the fuel rail. If all the injectors test out, then I would disconnect the both HEP wires and crank it over with the plugs out to clear out the fuel. Nows a good time to check your cam timing and distributor rotor position-it could have jumped a tooth.
One more suggestion is you could have your firing order wrong, I have done it before, :banghead:
87glhs232
03-02-2006, 09:44 PM
Yeah, check dist. cap/plug wire orientation, and also the injector harness plugs. Make sure they're on the right injectors. I think I would try a little starter fluid spray to see if it even wants to fire. Unplug the injectors (or fuel pump) and have a friend turn it over while spraying directly into the throttle body.
Also what Ken said, check the impedance, and for giggles run a temp. ground wire from the fuel rail ground directly to the battery ground.
i have another omni glh. i swapped my power module and ecu from the kick panel they were ok. put in a different temp sensor and swaped map sensor. nothing fixed it. checked the timing and all the dots lined up. with all the dots lined up i took off the cap and checked the position of the rotor. the rotor was pointing at #1 cylinder. checked the spark at the coil its really good. retested injectors with a noid light. will try with an ohm meter. checked the hep and it was solid. checked the compression during cranking and got 120. a question i have is , will the turbo spin slowly during cranking? mine doesnt. we even pumped in some air from the air compressor to try to get it to hit. nothing. i ran en extra ground to the injector rail from the fire wall but i think the ground for the harness was fine because with the key on i connected the ground and it activated the systems to run the injectors. thins has to be the biggest problem i have ever had. except for the running rich getting gas into the oil and tearing up engines. the car ran a couple of days ago then i took the injector rail off and put in some used seimens injectors. and it fired on one cylinder now it does nothing. ill give $150 to the person who figures it out. i disconnected the injector and used the spark to try to clear the cylinders and nothing. i took plugs out individually and blew cylinders with compressed air.
i even wired the injectors in backwards to make sure but theres no way the harness goes that way. tried it anyway. no fault codes]
turbovanmanČ
03-02-2006, 10:04 PM
The turbo won't spin when cranking it over, not enough flow. Can you spin the turbo by hand? Even if the turbo is seized, it will still let enough air thru to start. Had many friends, customers drive around with seized turbo's for years.
took the throttle body off and spun the turbo by hand.
so when i test the injector harness the tester should flash3 ohns. the plugs do have gas on them. from the injector firing. how could a car with good time good air good gas and good spark not run.
i appeciate all the advice guys
turbovanmanČ
03-02-2006, 11:35 PM
so when i test the injector harness the tester should flash3 ohns. the plugs do have gas on them. from the injector firing. how could a car with good time good air good gas and good spark not run.
Quite easily, :(
If timing is off, flooded etc.
If everything looks good and the injectors check out, I would put some fresh plugs in and try again.
3nglenn
03-03-2006, 04:45 AM
+1 ^ on what Simon says. Change the oil first before attempting a restart! All that gas in your oil can't be good for your rings... Check and recheck your timing. G.P.
GLHSKEN
03-03-2006, 09:14 AM
UH Oh.. does this remind anyone of several other mystery no-starts???:eek:
While it's rare, check for a broken cam... It breaks around the 2nd tower from the passenger side.
lol i definetly have not checked the cam for breaks but that is next. car has new plugs and they are wet. they spark when out of the car
turbovanmanČ
03-03-2006, 01:08 PM
lol i definetly have not checked the cam for breaks but that is next. car has new plugs and they are wet. they spark when out of the car
Doesn't matter if they are new or spark out of the car. When they get fuel soaked, they won't work IN the car, seen it a 1000 times.
ok so heres what i did. replaced the ignition system. it sparks atleast 1 inch off of the valve cover with the spark plug out. we pumped starter fluid into the throttlebody and the car fired right up. with continuos spray the car ran until we stopped spraying. this means the a couple of things. it has good timing, it has spark on all 4 cylinders. now for the injectors.after we stopped spraying the car actually ran on just the #1 cylinder on its own gas. i replaced the wiring harness with 2 more harnesses one that came from my running omni. and one i had laying around. i actually replaced the fuel rail out of the running omni. then the car would not start so i do know it is a fuel problem. i do not believe it is the pressure regulator and ive got a different one in anyway. my regualtor on cranking pressure reads 53 psi. my compression is still 140. ive replaced both computers from the running car and the injectors have good ground. they seem to have a weak flash with the noid light and only the number 1 injector is firing it even has a small flash not bright at all. but i dont know if its supposed to be. sometimes it is bright and sometimes it isnt. the 2 3 4 are not firing. but atleast ive traced it to fuel problem. this car was running so rich it would still run and idle but dumped raw fuel into the oil killing engines 2 of them. are these problems related? rich fuel and now no fuel. the thing is when i has the injector hooked into a tee line (which i dont now) all the injectors physically fired as i watched them. they fired on the noid light now 2 3 4 doesnt and sometimes 1 doesnt like this last time. and then i put more starting fluid in and it kicked over and then #1 started to fire. so i took the plug off from the computer to the injector and tested the 5 sockes with a test light. sometimes they had current and other times not. sometimes they would light up and immidietly go out. theres lots of information here and its kind of confusing but maybe we can get down to this mess and i can have my car back. on a further note i have a 87 t2 shelby with 2 computers and almost if not the same wiring harness . is it a direct swap on the head. wont mess with it until ive solved this problem with the fuel. any ideas. what volts or ohms should the socket from the computer to the injectors read? thank for all the help.:D
butchsuppe
03-09-2006, 01:43 AM
You mentioned the car was running rich before you swapped inj. It sounds to me your motor is still geting too flooded to start, try pinching the fuel line half closed, A flooded motor will start eventually with the troottle wide open. also try pulling the coil wire part way out to create a hotter spark. the gap causes the coil to release more voltage thru the cap, rotor etc. Also OHM the ground wire, should be about 2 or less ohm,s, had many air susp problems due the high resistance in the ground wire, may check every ground at computer too. Electonics are very finicky about good gounds. LOL
turbovanmanČ
03-09-2006, 02:17 AM
Definately have a wiring issue. If I have time tomorrow, I will did thru my wiring diagrams and try to help you pin point it.
Have you tried a new Power Module by the battery, for shits and giggles?
checked the power module and practically memorized the wiring diagram. the power module works in my other car and the other cars power module doesnt make mine start. there is one difference between them. one throws fault codes and the other one doesnt. i mean one runs the diagnostic and the othe one wont. the one that does shows no fault codes though. having 2 glh 86 omnis helps with diagnosis. i took apart the wire wrap and see no broken connections but to be honest wiring has always been a weak point. ive learned more about it in the last 3 weeks than in the entire time ive owned the car. getting much better at understanding how the system works. how its powered and which computer does what and how the ecu tells the power module what to do and when to fire the car. i heard they put 2 computers in there to save on wiring. if im correct in theory there should be a possibility of 5 to 7 wires that could cause this problem and ill bet its only one of them. i have a tan (injector bank2) white (injector bank1) black (ground) Dark green/B (goes to the coil, power module, injectors,and fuel pump) black/Bl (asd what the heck is this and will it shut fuel injectors down? can it be replaced even though its in the power module?) i think theres one more but im not at my car and cant check it.
daytonajesse
03-09-2006, 02:35 PM
The wiring problem is most likely in the injector harness, or near the connector to it, I think this cuz you say one of them does fire intermittently, and you said the problem didnt start until after switching injectors. Ideally you should get a wiring diagram and a multimeter to see where the problem is. My diagram is for smec cars at wont help you.
i have a wiring diagram. you can get any diagram for most turbo dodges from autozone.com. you would be surprised how much information is on that site for our cars. www.minimopar.net also has some information.
www.AutoZone.com
Home > Repair Info > Vehicle Repair Guides > UNDERSTANDING AND TROUBLESHOOTING ELECTRiCAL SYSTEMS a good place to find diagrams for those who dont know. i guess the fuel injectors are fired in batches? and should have 3 ohms at the injector plug and less than 2 ohms at the ground? there are 5 wires that plug for all the injectors. what vlotage or ohms should all those pins be reading before they plug into the injector harness
will electrical problems make my car run rich and then make it not fire at all. or better question. what would make the injetors run rich and what ammount of electricity would cause them to do this. if they are supposed to get 3 ohms and are gertting 5 ohms will the car run rich. i know its a lot of questions to answer but id like to know anything i can about voltages to sensores and all the rest of the stuff that makes my motor tick in order to fix these kinds of problems.
turbovanmanČ
03-09-2006, 05:06 PM
will electrical problems make my car run rich and then make it not fire at all. or better question. what would make the injetors run rich and what ammount of electricity would cause them to do this. if they are supposed to get 3 ohms and are gertting 5 ohms will the car run rich. i know its a lot of questions to answer but id like to know anything i can about voltages to sensores and all the rest of the stuff that makes my motor tick in order to fix these kinds of problems.
You have it a bit wrong, OHMS is resistance, think of a dam holding back water. Amperage is what pushings the water thru the dam. Forget how to explain voltage.
The injectors recieve a constant 12 volts thru the computer or ASD relay-not sure on yours, been a while. The computer cycles the ground side-this is called pulsewidth. This happens in MS. The longer the computer holds the injector open, the longer the injector stays open and sprays more fuel.
To run rich, the computer has to see a bunch of inputs telling it to add more fuel, or you have a bad FPR or injector.
i think the asd relay controls the injectors and the logic module controls the asd relay. so let me get this right. when the asd relay is off it is an open circuit but when it is grounded it gets a 12 volt charge from the battery. it then sends 12 volts to the fuel injectors and the coil so they should be hot all the time. even when the engine is not running with key switch in the run position. then the power module sends connects a ground and fires 2 fuel injectors. what sensors determine how long the injector stays on. ive replaced my oxygen sensor. i know it controls the mixture buit so does alot of other sensors like the coolant temp and the map.
turbovanmanČ
03-13-2006, 01:57 PM
i think the asd relay controls the injectors and the logic module controls the asd relay. so let me get this right. when the asd relay is off it is an open circuit but when it is grounded it gets a 12 volt charge from the battery. it then sends 12 volts to the fuel injectors and the coil so they should be hot all the time. even when the engine is not running with key switch in the run position. then the power module sends connects a ground and fires 2 fuel injectors. what sensors determine how long the injector stays on. ive replaced my oxygen sensor. i know it controls the mixture buit so does alot of other sensors like the coolant temp and the map.
I am not sure on that year but the ASD supplys 12 volts to the coil and injectors only when it sees a cranking or running signal. So if you turn the key on, you will get power at there for a few secs then it will go off.
The oxygen sensor is part of it, the computer uses RPM, coolant temp, MAP sensor and more to determine pulse width/injector on time.
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