Another TU Header Install

[stage3]

I will try to keep this updated as the install proceeds. Maybe it will help some one else out.
Just test fitting header with old turbo, new one on the way, to see if there are any obvious issues that will need some attention.
As you can see there is no way an intake hose will fit. Heater valve and hoses are in the way.
I guess step one will be to relocate them out of the way.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu2.jpg

[A.J.]

I had to trim my turbo intake hose.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/DSCF0912.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/thebest4/DSCF0913.jpg

I did my install on a minivan. I can't tell what kind of car your working on. I had to remove the heater tubes that run along and under the brake booster for clearance. I have all summer to figure out a new routing.

Also I had to grind a little off of my intake to get my header to fit.

I'm not trying to hi-jack your thread with my pictures. I'm just trying to help you out.

A.J.

[johnl]

The Z bracket and rod for the adjustable waste gate cans steps the waste gate vacuum can over too far in an L body such that there is interference with the heater core stub outs that come out of the firewall. I will pitch the adjustable rod for a regular big can and will be OK.

[Bubba]

Any of you running or going to be running a hybrid turbo? I'm installing my header at the moment and my wastegate can rod is very close to the oil feed line for the turbo. This is more of a turbo question than a header question.

[tryingbe]

Problem is that off set turbo compressor housing outlet...

You should put on a T4 cold side:thumb:

[stage3]

Also I had to grind a little off of my intake to get my header to fit.

I'm not trying to hi-jack your thread with my pictures. I'm just trying to help you out.

A.J.

Thats not a problem. Thats what I am looking for, info to share on installs.
My intake is going to be 3" so I will need all the room I can get.
For now I put a 2 1/2 elbow on the turbo, again the new one is going to have a T4 cover. Took a couple more pics with the hoses off and with the valve removed. I have a good idea where I want to put it but have to wait for the other turbo before I start cutting hoses. Oh yea forgot the car is a Daytona so I am not sure if other cars have the same layout.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu3.jpg
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu4.jpg

[TopDollar69]

What year is your Daytona? I'm pretty sure all the 87 up turbo cars had the heater valve mounted under the battery tray. My 84 Laser has it mounted near the booster like the pics of your car.

[stage3]

What year is your Daytona? I'm pretty sure all the 87 up turbo cars had the heater valve mounted under the battery tray. My 84 Laser has it mounted near the booster like the pics of your car.

Its a 90.

[moparzrule]

My 87 daytona had the heater valve right there, but my 88 shadow had it under the tray. Maybe it's a daytona thing.

[TopDollar69]

The 88 TII Shelby Z I parted out had the valve under the tray. Also two 89 Lebarons I parted out, one TII, the other was a TI both had the valves under tray. My old 90 Spirit ES had the valve next to the booster though. Either way, its a solution to get the valve out of the way of your turbo piping. You would just need to find the small bracket that screws to the frame rail under the tray.

[moparzrule]

I didn't even use the valve on my shadow, just ran straight lines. The heat turns off, I slide it over to cold and no heat comes out, so I dunno how everything works but apparently the valve does nothing LOL.

[minigts]

Is there an issue using this header on an L-body with a 525? I plan to upgrade to my 568, but any issues?

[turbovanman²]

I didn't even use the valve on my shadow, just ran straight lines. The heat turns off, I slide it over to cold and no heat comes out, so I dunno how everything works but apparently the valve does nothing LOL.

Its for A/C or I guess to make sure the heater blows cold with no A/C. When in full cold mode, vacuum is applied and blocks coolant flow to the heater core.

[stage3]

Under the tray is 1 of the 2 places I was thinking about. The other is between the turbo outlet piping and intake piping. I want to keep the hoses out of sight as much as possible.
I test fitted the downpipe. Looks straight forward, cut it before the last bend like the website said. Also need some heat wrap for the cables.
But I might have to relocate my wideband O2.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu5.jpg
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu6.jpg
Is any of this helpful to anyone. I am sure quite a few people have already installed them. Should I keep posting or should I just delete it all?

[turbovanman²]

Keep posting.

If you don't have a/c, just remove the valve.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Both my 87 ShelbyZ's have it under the tray. My new yorker and I think the GLH are up by the brake booster.

[A.J.]

The heater control valve only works on "recirculate" on the cars or on "max a/c" on the vans. When you select that position on your temp control head it supplies vacuum to the heater control valve to send the hot coolant back to the engine and keep it out of the evap/heater core box. If you delete the heater control valve run the heater hose directly from the water pump to the t-stat housing. Do not just cap off the ends. I can't remember why. Some thing about warm-up possibly.

You can put the heater control valve where ever you want. That's the fun about doing your own thing. There are no rules. I would put it under the battery tray. My '88 and '89 Daytonas also had it there.

A.J.

[moparzrule]

Heard people say the coolant gets turbulent or something if you just cap them off, but I ran with them capped off for 2-3 months with no issues, then I ran straight lines to the heater core without the valve.

[MiniMopar]

+1...if you don't have A/C just remove the valve and run the lines directly from the head/pump to/from the core. You don't want to block it completely as that is the only way coolant circulates through the pump when the thermostat it closed. The circulation is needed to prevent hot spots from forming during this time....

[turbovanman²]

+1...if you don't have A/C just remove the valve and run the lines directly from the head/pump to/from the core. You don't want to block it completely as that is the only way coolant circulates through the pump when the thermostat it closed. The circulation is needed to prevent hot spots from forming during this time....

Its basically the waterpump bypass, :D

[johnl]

Is there an issue using this header on an L-body with a 525? I plan to upgrade to my 568, but any issues?

Yes there is. You have to convert your 525 to cable shifter - the cables can be found in 85 - 86ish Lasers and Daytonas that came with 525s.

The cast header steps the downpipe over to the driver's side and that means that the downpipe argues with the rod shifted transmission linkage over who gets to occupy that space.

[minigts]

Thanks John. I may have to engineer something to work if I go that route. :D Either that or get my 568 put in....hmmm, which to do, which to do.... ;)

[TopDollar69]

The 84 Laser and Daytona also have the cable shifted A525.

[MiniMopar]

Yeah, all pre-87 non-L-body 5 speeds got the A525 with annoying cables that like to pop off when they get old. You would be better off with H body cables as they should be shorter than the G.

Rather than finding a set of crusty old cables, this sounds to me like a good excuse to upgrade the trans to something less explosive.

[minigts]

Well I have a hybrid heim set up that uses quick disconnect ball ends and it's working great, but I also want to go to a 568 which won't happen for a while unfortunately. I like the mounting position of the turbo though with this header, hence the questions. So if I could do the header and still keep the transmission for the time being that would be ideal.

[stage3]

Read in another thread Bubba posted the difference in the opening sizes of the header flange and turbo.
I made a quick gasket from the header and laid it on the old turbo. Figured the new one will be close to the same. Is safe to open it up that much?
I did touch up the ports to match the exhaust gasket. This would be a bit more work.

http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu7.jpg
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu8.jpg

[moparzrule]

Yes it's safe to open it up that much, and I would. You might not be able to blend back in as far as you should for taking that much out, but go as far as you think is safe. The metal gets thinner the further back you go, so just watch and keep feeling with your fingers how thick the metal is.

[The Pope]

Read in another thread Bubba posted the difference in the opening sizes of the header flange and turbo.
I made a quick gasket from the header and laid it on the old turbo. Figured the new one will be close to the same. Is safe to open it up that much?
I did touch up the ports to match the exhaust gasket. This would be a bit more work.

http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu7.jpg
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu8.jpg


http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2836

To compinsate for near zero inside turn and to make the near 1/4" cut the wastegate hole side needs to make the short turn radius for the manifold.

The other 3 sides get cut back into the turbine 2".. With the edge there the air is pressurized off the wall of the turbine, this can effectively make the turbine smaller in AR. With a little porting though it is all good and not at all a big deal. The down side for me is recoating the turbine when I coated the manifold. I also need to post what I did with the bolts, sick :yuck: and barely made it to the computer.

[TurboJerry]

Keep posting.

If you don't have a/c, just remove the valve.

I thought the hot coolant will heat up the air if it has working A/C.....

[moparzrule]

I thought the hot coolant will heat up the air if it has working A/C.....

Yeah, it will. Thats why he said if you don't have A/C to take out the valve, otherwise leave the valve.

[The Pope]

Yeah, it will. Thats why he said if you don't have A/C to take out the valve, otherwise leave the valve.

If you don't have AC you shouldn't have that valve anyway? The only time that valve works is on reciculate, you still get hot coolent during regular AC use. You can buy 90 degree hoses for other cars at the auto part store, I plan to cut a couple down to try and make mine work.

[turbovanman²]

I thought the hot coolant will heat up the air if it has working A/C.....

Well internally, the heater box still bypass's the heater core but they add the valve so the a/c doesn't have to work as hard as a bit of heat still radiates out of the box, :thumb:

[moparzrule]

Yup I actually put a shutoff valve in the heater core lines of my 94' Ram for in the summer time, helped keep the A/C about 5 degrees cooler because the box wasn't getting heated.

[stage3]

AC is a must. I will reroute the lines and move the valve. Just wish the new turbo would get here already :(.

[slasky]

Too bad we can't run without an intake. There is so much room in those pictures without it.

[moparzrule]

Too bad we can't run without an intake

You don't have to........if you only want your engine to last a few hundred miles go for it!
Me and a friend once went together to buy a 87 Shelby Z, we split it up and parted it out keeping what each of us wanted. I snagged the turbo because it was a super 70, only to find that the guy's ''cold air intake'' consisted of a hose from the turbo to the nose of the car with NO filter. Needless to say the compressor wheel was really chewed up, probably picked up rocks and God knows what else LOL.

[TurboJerry]

Well internally, the heater box still bypass's the heater core but they add the valve so the a/c doesn't have to work as hard as a bit of heat still radiates out of the box, :thumb:

Yup, that's what I thought also, but the 91+ cars don't have the valve so I guess they wanted to delete it for cost savings....

[gvare001]

So if you don't have any hoses hook up to the heater core, you don't have any flow thru the water pump when the thermostat is closed?

[moparzrule]

So if you don't have any hoses hook up to the heater core, you don't have any flow thru the water pump when the thermostat is closed?

Correct. Although I had no issues with it plugged off, I recommend you atleast loop the line and go from the water pump right to the fitting on the head.

[TurboJerry]

You will get hot spots in the Cylinder head if you don't have bypass when the thermostat is closed. A plugged heater core also shows the same symptom when the control is on heat with the valve in there. The temp gauge will bounce around like crazy until the thermostat opens.......

[moparzrule]

Like I said I didn't have that issue with mine plugged off. HOWEVER, perhaps the 3/8'' line I used for the number 4 cooling mod was enough to keep those hot spots away and not make the gauge bounce around.

[TurboJerry]

Like I said I didn't have that issue with mine plugged off. HOWEVER, perhaps the 3/8'' line I used for the number 4 cooling mod was enough to keep those hot spots away and not make the gauge bounce around.

I agree.............

[stage3]

Like I said I didn't have that issue with mine plugged off. HOWEVER, perhaps the 3/8'' line I used for the number 4 cooling mod was enough to keep those hot spots away and not make the gauge bounce around.

Do you have any pics of your cooling mod. Thinking of doing it since the head is just sitting there. I searched and there are a few different ways to do it and different hose sizes. Not sure which way to go.

[moparzrule]

Do you have any pics of your cooling mod. Thinking of doing it since the head is just sitting there. I searched and there are a few different ways to do it and different hose sizes. Not sure which way to go.

Everything is off my car my car right now so I just snapped a pic of the head and water pump.
The picture does all the talking really. Basically all you do is drill and tap 1/4'' NPT in the head where I have shown, and in the water pump. I just used a 90 degree brass fitting in the head and straight on the water pump, with 3/8'' outlets, and I just used 3/8'' fuel line. Thats it, nothing to it.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/4coolantmod.jpg

[stage3]

Could I just tee into the heater return line going back to the pump instead of installing a fitting in the pump?

[moparzrule]

Probably, I've also seen people ''T'' into the upper radiator hose as well.

[stage3]

Got the new turbo and tried to test fit everything. I don't know if I have the wrong wga bracket. If I try to install the turbo with the bracket like in the pic below the compressor outlet will hit the tranny. If I clock the turbo to try to use the other bolts, which wont line up with the bracket holes unless I ream it out some, the oulet points up :confused:.
I can make it work if I drill a new hole into the bracket but then it will be secured with only one bolt.

http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu9.jpg

[moparzrule]

Running with 1 bolt is no problem. I've been doing it for years with old T1 cans on my hybrid turbo's.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/T1canhybrid.jpg

[Bubba]

I had that z bracket and had to modify it to work on my old set-up by drilling an additional hole and elongating the two original hole for some adjustability.

[stage3]

Thanks for the replies. I thought the z-bracket was supposed to eliminate having to modify.
Here is what I did.

http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu10.jpg

[MiniMopar]

I have a similar or the same turbo, Z-bracket and wastegate. Hopefully I won't have these problems. I don't understand why the Z-bracket wouldn't work.

[stage3]

If you look at the pic the brackets bolts up perfect using the bolt I have going through it and the one with the piece I made bolted to it. But to get the wga to line up you can't turn the comp housing enough because the outlet hits the tranny.

[MiniMopar]

Is it the header's repositioning of the turbo that is causing the interference with the trans?

[stage3]

Is it the header's repositioning of the turbo that is causing the interference with the trans?

I couldn't answer that for you. I didn't have this turbo with a stock exhaust manifold.

[Chris W]

The Z-Brackets were designed to be used with out Tranny Buster turbos. Turbonetics uses a unique bolt pattern for their compressor covers. Slotting the bolt holes on the bracket or drilling a new one would be the cleanest and simplest solution.

Chris-TU

[MiniMopar]

Good to know, thanks. Perhaps the bracket could be "universalized"? :)

[vntshadow]

Read in another thread Bubba posted the difference in the opening sizes of the header flange and turbo.
I made a quick gasket from the header and laid it on the old turbo. Figured the new one will be close to the same. Is safe to open it up that much?
I did touch up the ports to match the exhaust gasket. This would be a bit more work.

http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu7.jpg
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/tu8.jpg

Hello all, I'm a newbie to this site. Reading all these forums are making me stir crazy. I didn't know when I could involve myself with you peeps. UNTIL, Was looking over this talk and saw a chance to help out.
To making a gasket is an easy trick I learned a long time ago. Using cast iron manifold as your template makes things even easier.

Lightly glue(i use spray 77) to hold a piece(slightly bigger then material you are working with) of gasket over the holes.
Take a small to medium size ball-pean(use round end) hammer and tap around the lines of casting to form a perfect gasket.


I hope this helps. If already knew about this, sorry to intrude.

[moparzrule]

Hello VNTSHADOW and welcome to turbo mopar. Good advice for making a gasket, however we don't normally run gaskets at all in between the turbo and manifold. Cast iron seals fine against cast iron as long as both surfaces are nice and flat. Now if you were to run a custom header made from steel, then yup you should probably run a gasket.
What stage3 was doing was just using that as a template so he could port match the turbine housing to the exhaust manifold.

[vntshadow]

Hello VNTSHADOW and welcome to turbo mopar. Good advice for making a gasket, however we don't normally run gaskets at all in between the turbo and manifold. Cast iron seals fine against cast iron as long as both surfaces are nice and flat. Now if you were to run a custom header made from steel, then yup you should probably run a gasket.
What stage3 was doing was just using that as a template so he could port match the turbine housing to the exhaust manifold.

I see.

[Chris W]

:welcome: vnt shadow and THNKS for your input.

That tip will work very nicely on applications where a paper gasket is required.

Thanks for your input!:thumb:

Chris-TU

[stage3]

Finally got my intake and I can get back to work for awhile. At least until I get to the point where I will need the silicone 90 for the intake that I have been waiting for since the end of March.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu14.jpg

I installed a fitting into the freeze plug for the cooling mod.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu12.jpg

Found this tee at the store. Going to tee the line off the head to the hc return line.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu13.jpg

Since the downpipe will be very close to the cables I wrapped them with some thermal covering.
I am also going to wrap the pipe.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu11.jpg
Screwed all the exhaust studs into the head. Guess I have to cut a couple down.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu15.jpg
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu16.jpg

[Ondonti]

Are those studs all fully engaged?

[Bubba]

Yes, you have to cut down the studs. I used the studs for my lower holes and bolts for the upper holes. I also used smaller profile nuts on the studs than what comes with the stud kits.

[moparzrule]

You should wrap the starter too.
BTW, nice fitting, looks familiar LOL, only I went into the water pump-
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m216/87wagon/4coolantmod.jpg

[stage3]

I have had the starter wrapped for years. Cool fitting :eyebrows:.

[moparzrule]

Oh, it doesn't looked wrapped in the pics thats all. I see the wiring is wrapped, thats the really important part.

:thumb:

[TurboJerry]

I cut the studs and ground the manifold(s) a little to make it easier to start the nut, and get 1 thread showing past the nut also.

[stage3]

Slowly getting it back together. I must be getting to old, never taken me this long to do this.
Went to bolt the intake on and holes didn't lineup. Wish I realized this while I was using a friends die grinder to open up the exh flange. I would have ground some off the exh instead of the intake manifold.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu17.jpg
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu18.jpg

Also put this bolt through the manifold before threading in the others :confused:.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu19.jpg

:clap:
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu20.jpg

Glad I still had an extra bend from my Ebay intercooler pipe kit.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu21.jpg

Don't see any way to avoid the shifter cables touching the exhaust. Went crazy with some wrap. Spent about 50.00 on wrap for the pipe and cables. Still need to pickup some clamps to keep the wrap in place.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu23.jpg

[stage3]

Glad I spent the 50.00 on the heat wrap for the exhaust and cables. It is impossible for them not to touch. The shifter cables are covered in the silver wrap pinned between the downpipe and crossmember.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu24.jpg

Ended up relocating the hc bypass valve to here.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu25.jpg

Pieced together a funky intake.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu26.jpg

All done.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu27.jpg

Got it fired up, no leaks I can see but still smells strange at idle.
Cruised around for awhile and took it real easy. Stayed out off boost.
Turned the boost controller down to about 20 psi and hit the highway.
Spools like a turd. Doesn't hit full boost till 4500 rpm:faint:. Worse then before when I was using the t3/t4 50 trim in a t3 housing. Unless I have a huge leak, which I doubt and need to test for, doesn't make any sense.

[moparzrule]

What is your new turbo? 50 trim with stage 2 .63 turbine? Do you have a 2.2 or 2.5L?

Is your cam timing retarded a tooth? Ignition timing correct? What calibration are you running?

[stage3]

What is your new turbo? 50 trim with stage 2 .63 turbine? Do you have a 2.2 or 2.5L?

Is your cam timing retarded a tooth? Ignition timing correct? What calibration are you running?

50 trim stage 2 .63 and 2.2
I don't think the cam gears moved any, lined right back up when I put the head on. I had tension on the belt and gears so they wouldn't move while the head was off. Timing was at 18 some how. Set it to 14 deg. Cam gear is about 4 deg advanced. Old cal done by Gary some years ago. I do have a DTEC to pull fuel.
Did a leak test and fixed 2 small ones at the throttle body and charge temp sensor. My pos RFL is the biggest leak. Those are the biggest pieces of garbage.

[mcsvt]

... My pos RFL is the biggest leak. Those are the biggest pieces of garbage.

Yeah, I think I'm going to mod the 1g BOV I have and go back to that. I love scaring people with the RFL but it's really useless.

[moparzrule]

I have like 4 washers for shims in mine to hold about 27 PSI. I'll need a different BOV to go more than that, with so many shims it doesn't release at any less than like 7-8 PSI.

[2.216VTurbo]

Wait, you didn't actually time the motor but just relied on the it-was-in-the-right-spot-and-I-kept-it-where-it-was-with-tension method:confused: Dude, seriously?

[stage3]

Yep done it plenty of times. I do go back and check everything once I am sure there are no major problems that need to be addressed right away.

[moparzrule]

I think your cam is retarded 1 tooth but it's not really bad because your cam gear is advanced 4 degrees.

[stage3]

I advanced the cam gear one tooth and put the cam gear straight up. So I added 5 deg advance basically. Vacuum at idle didn't change nor did the spool much. It was a little better, at 3500 rpm I had 6 psi instead of 4. The car is running pig rich in the low 10s. I tried to pull some fuel out with my DTEC but it didn't help much. I need to back the regulator down. This is the worst part of any upgrades.
Trying to get all the bugs out. Plus its a pain in the rear without any help trying to watch the rpms, boost, a/frs and traffic at the same time. Been through it many times and not ready to panic yet.

[2.216VTurbo]

Sounds like progress and a little fuel pressure adjust shoud be pretty quick...

[moparzrule]

Sounds like you were a tooth off. Go back to 4 degree's advance and you should be better yet.

[stage3]

Got worse, car was hard to start and fell flat at about 4k. Went back to original location and leaned out the a/f. Mid 11s but spool is still slow. Maybe thats just how it is going to be :confused2:. I guess the best way is to get a couple hrs dyno time so I can see actual results and don't have to worry about flying up on someone on the highway.
I know the bov is leaking but I can't believe its effecting it that much.
Unfortunately with my work load I won't have time to mess with it for awhile. Guess I won't be driving it to SDAC :mecry:.
At least I have had zero leaks and not broken down

[GLHNSLHT2]

drive it to Sdac and let the other guys help ya out.

[turbovanman²]

Final

I installed a fitting into the freeze plug for the cooling mod.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/tu12.jpg

]


Is that the frost plug? If so, I would honestly move it, there not designed for any kind of load and putting a hose there, will put a load on.

Other than that, looks awesome.

For your spooling issues, you really need to reset your cam timing and actually use a timing light.

[moparzrule]

Got worse, car was hard to start and fell flat at about 4k. Went back to original location and leaned out the a/f. Mid 11s but spool is still slow. Maybe thats just how it is going to be :confused2:. I guess the best way is to get a couple hrs dyno time so I can see actual results and don't have to worry about flying up on someone on the highway.
I know the bov is leaking but I can't believe its effecting it that much.
Unfortunately with my work load I won't have time to mess with it for awhile. Guess I won't be driving it to SDAC :mecry:.
At least I have had zero leaks and not broken down

Are you going to Carlisle?

[stage3]

I will be at Carlisle with my SRT-4. Looks like it's my ride for SDAC also.
Set the timing mark at tdc. Here is where the cam lines up. Should not be a tooth off either way. You can see what ribs its between on the valve cover.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/HEADER/cam.jpg

[moparzrule]

What cam are you running anyway?

Also, what ECU calibration?

[stage3]

What cam are you running anyway?

Also, what ECU calibration?

Taft S2 cam and the cal was done by Gary D. quite a few years ago.

The parts I changed are:
Ported exh to TU cast exh.
2 1/2 swingvalve to a TU 3".
T3/T4 50 stage 2/ .63 with a T3 comp cover to T3/T4 50 stage 2/ .63 t04e cover.
The wild card which might be the problem?
Ported 1 pc intake to a modified 1 pc intake with 2 1/2 elbow, and the runners shortened.

Here is a comparison of a data log from last year compared to last night (the numbers in red). 3rd gear.

http://members.cox.net/90vnt/6-14-08a.html

[GLHNSLHT2]

how come the TPS #'s don't match? Niether does the boost. Kind of hard to see what the mods did to the a/f if the TPS and boost levels aren't the same right?

[stage3]

how come the TPS #'s don't match? Niether does the boost. Kind of hard to see what the mods did to the a/f if the TPS and boost levels aren't the same right?

That doesn't really matter. The point of the chart is just a comparison of boost vs rpm and a/f.
Black #s 3990rpm 14.7psi and a/f 10.8
Red #s 3990rpm 8.59psi and a/f 11.58
At the same rpms I am down 6psi now.

[GLHNSLHT2]

The ECU doesn't work like that, If you're not at WOT then you're on a totally different fuel curve. Also the ECU adds fuel based on boost level. So say you're at WOT and 6psi, The ECU cranks out 12 milliseconds of fuel. which gives you a certain a/f ratio. Now you crank the boost to 12 and it goes up to 17ms of fuel. Which in turn might give you a richer or leaner a/f than at 6psi.

It doesn't work like "I'm at 11:1 at 6psi so if I crank the boost to 12 the a/f's will lean out to 12:1." The curve keeps adding fuel as boost goes up, if the curve is shaped right you'll have the same a/f at 12psi as you do at 6psi and so on.

[moparzrule]

Shorter intake runners certainly does make the turbo spool slower. I lost about 300 RPM spoolup going to my custom intake. But, I flow a lot more in the upper RPM's to make up for it. Lost 300 down low, gained 500 up top.

[stage3]

The ECU doesn't work like that, If you're not at WOT then you're on a totally different fuel curve. Also the ECU adds fuel based on boost level. So say you're at WOT and 6psi, The ECU cranks out 12 milliseconds of fuel. which gives you a certain a/f ratio. Now you crank the boost to 12 and it goes up to 17ms of fuel. Which in turn might give you a richer or leaner a/f than at 6psi.

It doesn't work like "I'm at 11:1 at 6psi so if I crank the boost to 12 the a/f's will lean out to 12:1." The curve keeps adding fuel as boost goes up, if the curve is shaped right you'll have the same a/f at 12psi as you do at 6psi and so on.

I understand that, I am at wot. On one part of the chart 5v might say 100 and the other 85. Its just the scaling in the lm1 software not the SBEC.
The fuel curve is not my concern right now. Its getting the turbo to spool up faster. The fuel curve I will flatten out later once I figure out what is going on with the spool.

[stage3]

Shorter intake runners certainly does make the turbo spool slower. I lost about 300 RPM spoolup going to my custom intake. But, I flow a lot more in the upper RPM's to make up for it. Lost 300 down low, gained 500 up top.

I lost 600-700 RPM by installing a exh manifold, turbo and swingvalve which should have made it spool up faster then original setup. The intake was a last minute stupid idea of mine. I was worried the stock one wouldn't flow enough.
I get the feeling its the major problem. Guess the car will be mothballed then. I hate driving it the way it is.

[moparzrule]

No changes to the head?

Can you list your complete setup?

[stage3]

No changes to the head?

Can you list your complete setup?

No changes to the head.
FM Enforcer II 2.2 engine about 7 years and 25,000 miles on it.
Head is ported with oversize valves.
Taft Stage 2 cam
Adj. cam gear
3 bar cal
+40s, Static fuel pressure set at 48 psi.
Base ignition timing 14.
3" exhaust no cat.
195 lph fuel pump, stock fuel lines and rail.
Underdrive pulley.
Crane ignition system.
Large FMIC with 2 1/2" piping.
TurboXS RFLeaker BOV
New parts:
T3/T4 TO4E Stage 2 .63
3" swing valve
TU Header
Modified intake

[moparzrule]

Ditch the S2 cam and put a stocker back in. I've run the S2 myself, total waste of time. Spools the turbo slow and doesn't give much at all back in the upper RPM's. I was much happier with the stock cam.

I do believe the intake is causing most of the rest of the problem. Since you have a 2.5, even out of boost around town it should have plenty of low end balls. I know when I had the 2.5 in my shadow I had so much low end torque it was insane.

What calibration are you running though?

[stage3]

It' a 2.2 not 2.5. After I added the cam and water injection I picked up 40 hp and really didn't hurt the spool much, couple hundred rpm.
Cal is from Gary D quite a few years ago. Usual 3 bar and +40s.
I dread pulling everything apart to put the old intake back on. Wish the intake and exh gasket was 2 instead of one piece.
This is before the cam.
http://members.cox.net/tarkus3/Daytona/dyno/t3t4dyno%20oct.jpg

And after.
http://members.cox.net/90vnt/06%20dyno/Daytona%20dyno%2010-14-06.jpg

[Bubba]

Wow...that's impressive.

[stage3]

Wow...that's impressive.

So how is your setup going. Better then mine I hope.

[moparzrule]

It' a 2.2 not 2.5. After I added the cam and water injection I picked up 40 hp and really didn't hurt the spool much, couple hundred rpm.
Cal is from Gary D quite a few years ago. Usual 3 bar and +40s.
I dread pulling everything apart to put the old intake back on. Wish the intake and exh gasket was 2 instead of one piece.
This is before the cam.
]


Whoops I think I was confusing you with someone else or something.

How much more boost were you running in the different dyno's?

Edit- I was looking at BUBBA's signature, thats why I saw 2.5L. :o

[stage3]

Whoops I think I was confusing you with someone else or something.

How much more boost were you running in the different dyno's?

Edit- I was looking at BUBBA's signature, thats why I saw 2.5L. :o

Both 25 - 26 psi. Just couldn't make any more boost on the dynos. On the street there is no problem, more of a load.

[moparzrule]

So the only changes were the cam and alky?
But remember, you were running the T4 wheel inside the T3 housing, that makes a lot of heat so IMO the alky gave you most of your gains.

But anyway, so the S2 makes you loose like 200 RPM spoolup? Have you tried going back to 4 degree's cam advance?

[stage3]

That's about where it's at now.

[moparzrule]

Hmm, what RPM do you feel it pull to? What RPM do you shift at? Did you gain any upper RPM performance with this hit on the low end?

[tvanlant]

Wow, cam and alky was the only thing done between those two dynos? What nozzle are you using?

Has anyone else who is running the TU header reported a slower spoolup?

[Bubba]

So how is your setup going. Better then mine I hope.


So far so good. I have the boost down low at 12psi. Been tweaking the cal a bit with some people's help on the boards here. I have a similar set-up, although it's a 2.5 with an ATX. I have an F3 cam with a big valve g-head that flowed around 200cfm. Cam timing is straight up. I may adjust that some to see how it effects things once my fuel is where I'd like it.

My car has always spooled rather slow with my 50 trim turbo. It seems to spool a bit faster than before, but could still be improved in my opinion. Hopefully, with some more tweaks to my cal, I can get it to spool a bit better.

[Gaboon]

The intake is not your problem.

I would bet my last dollar the cam timing is the issue. The S2 while not the best cam I've tried is better than a stocker.

Degree the cam and see what it's at. Each line on the cam wheel is worth two degrees. This crap about having it four degrees advanced or retarded means nothing. Find out where you're at, degree the cam to spec and work from there.
Don't mess around and waste your time. It's easy to degree a cam.

[tvanlant]

The S2 while not the best cam I've tried is better than a stocker.


What is the best cam you've tried?

[stage3]

Well back at it again. Will try to keep this short. Cam was at 120 centerline so I set it back to 114. Made small adjustments from there, nothing. Threw old roller back in and boost was back at original RPMs before I started this nightmare. However the car felt really down on power.
So one of the new parts doesn't like the S2 cam I guess. Head is back off so I can put the old intake back on and trash the new one. We'll see if it helps.

[Sloride]

if your cam is a stock roller the centerline is 122...

[stage3]

The 114 is for a Taft S2 cam. The factory ones should be 110.

[Sloride]

someone posted an SAE paper a while back, showing the turbo rollers had a 122 centerline compared to the sliders 110 (.... im looking for the link..... )

[stage3]

Here is where I got my info http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/perf/topend.html

[Sloride]

took me awhile to find,

if you look at post #9

http://www.turbo dodge.com/forums/f4/f17/102085-roller-cam-centerline.html

[stage3]

Pulled the head again and put the old intake back on. No noticeable difference. So its either the header, turbo or swingvalve. Can't see it being the turbo. Swingvalve should be easy to swap out.
I thought the header and swingvalve are supposed to help with spool up?
The turbo should also help since its replacing a T3/T4 with a T3 comp housing?

[10G OMNI]

The old turbo will spool better it just makes more heat,at the same time you opened up air flow and things will take longer to get going.
My set up is very close to yours and i run the older style turbo and S2 and get decent spool.
Might want to try a new cal just for the hell of it,I ran 12.5 in my glh at 18psi with one, but driving around town wasent that great,than i tryed another and ran the same thing but it was way better around town and spool,sometimes when you change so many factors and newer cal can make a difference.

[Sloride]

^ was thinking the same.
air being less excited going through the bigger compressor might account for some of the spoolup...
you should have all your power back+more by 4500 + 5000

im assuming your talking "A-ss tuning" (seat of the pants) low end loss feels worse then a small top end gain.

perhaps one of those "D" valves to bypass the compressor+ intercooler will help.

u recenterlined right?
Im assuming your going to throw it on the dyno to see whats up?

[stage3]

Every post I have read says the TO4E cover should spool faster then the same wheel in a T3 cover.

[tvanlant]

I finished my TU header install just a few weeks ago. The only changes were a stock ported manifold and the stock T2 garret (w/ a .63 ex housing) to a TU cast header and a S50 trim t3/t4.

I get full boost by 4000-4200, where my last setup was around 3200 full boost.
So I would think you could rule out the header.
Maybe the turbo itself has a problem?

[shadow88]

I finished my TU header install just a few weeks ago. The only changes were a stock ported manifold and the stock T2 garret (w/ a .63 ex housing) to a TU cast header and a S50 trim t3/t4.

I get full boost by 4000-4200, where my last setup was around 3200 full boost.
So I would think you could rule out the header.
Maybe the turbo itself has a problem?

Mine is the same way. The exhaust housing is the reason for that lag in my experience.

[moparzrule]

With a 2.2 the best you'll probably get is 3800 RPM or so with the stage 2 .63 turbine. There are some things you could do to get it to spool faster, but in general thats pretty much where you will be at if you are in the neighborhood or 300-400 WHP. I suspect Tyler that your taft S2 cam is making it spool a little higher in the RPM's.
In my experience a 2.5L will spool a turbo about 500-600 RPM faster.

[ssheen]

Spool is about pressure diffentrial. More pressure on the head side than the SV side. Adding the SV will have helped decrease the pressure on the exhaust system side. There by assisting spool up. Who knows how much... I know when I swapped from stock SV/exhaust to a 3" system, my boost jumped ~5psi and came on way faster. Forget the different now though. That was on a 2.2.

The reading I have been doing, is that going to the bigger unit can harm the lower RPM range due to not being able to get as much exhaust out of the cylinders. This is partly due to the velocity being slower. As the RPMs rise the exhaust gas velocity increases evac'ing the cyclinder better. Having a larger displacement also increases the velocity in the gases. This is one reason why a 2.5 can spool quicker.

The exhaust article here can help explain things better. http://www.pumpgastech.com/pgt_articles.htm

[stage3]

With a 2.2 the best you'll probably get is 3800 RPM or so with the stage 2 .63 turbine. There are some things you could do to get it to spool faster, but in general thats pretty much where you will be at if you are in the neighborhood or 300-400 WHP. I suspect Tyler that your taft S2 cam is making it spool a little higher in the RPM's.
In my experience a 2.5L will spool a turbo about 500-600 RPM faster.

Thats what I was hoping for when I did all this, gaining about 500 rpm spool to put it around 3800 rpm. But instead I lost 600-700 rpm and ended up closer to 5k rpm. I think I am going to send the old turbo out and have it gone threw and put it and the regular exhaust manifold back on. Oh well guess I threw about $2k out the window.

[Sloride]

Its a 50 trim to4e / t3 right?
ill take the turbo for a vastly reduced price that you paid......... :)

why not put the .48 housing on if you want lots o spool?

[Mopar318]

question about that heater valve thingy I know it was way back in these post.

My A/C has been removed, but with the all control set idle hot air comes out of the vents and it can get pretty steamy when in traffic. Could I keep the heater valve, and just turn the A/C on to prevent the hot air from comming out of the vents?

[The Pope]

I am wondering if these people with lag and a TU header remembered to port the turbine of there turbo? The header has no inside turn and then hits a flat 1/4" edge on the turbine.

http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2830
http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2833
http://www.pnw-sdac.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2836

The exhaust will fly off the edge and slam into the back wall in the turbine making the flow area into the turbine half the size. Like gasket matching an intake manifold and bolting to an untouched head and adding a 1/8" tall dam wall on the floor of the intake runner.

As for the cam, a larger cam will work better with a big flowing exhaust, it should take less pressure in exhaust to make the same boost. But if the turbine is not ported to match the TU header the flow into the turbine is worse than if you have a ported stocker. Then your back to looking at a stock cam again.

[turbovanman²]

question about that heater valve thingy I know it was way back in these post.

My A/C has been removed, but with the all control set idle hot air comes out of the vents and it can get pretty steamy when in traffic. Could I keep the heater valve, and just turn the A/C on to prevent the hot air from comming out of the vents?

YOu can put the heater valve anywhere you want in the inlet hose. If its steamy, then it sounds like the heater core is leaking. Also, when selecting cold, the heater core is bypassed inside the case but for the best a/c performance, they block off the heater core so there is no added additional heat.

I just did some more minor porting on the intake side of the head, got rid of the ridge I didn't see last time so the air was hitting the head, mega mismatch and put a 58mm tb on. Midrange power is unreal and lag is almost gone, stage 3 wheel, 50 trim TO4E, .63 housing.

I had ported the turbine entrance and manifold to turbo earlier, just like the Pope suggests. I had a huge mismatch manifold to turbo.



No changes to the head.
FM Enforcer II 2.2 engine about 7 years and 25,000 miles on it.
Head is ported with oversize valves.
Taft Stage 2 cam
Adj. cam gear
3 bar cal
+40s, Static fuel pressure set at 48 psi.
Base ignition timing 14.
3" exhaust no cat.
195 lph fuel pump, stock fuel lines and rail.
Underdrive pulley.
Crane ignition system.
Large FMIC with 2 1/2" piping.
TurboXS RFLeaker BOV
New parts:
T3/T4 TO4E Stage 2 .63
3" swing valve
TU Header
Modified intake

Thats weird you having spool issues. I ran a log type header, 50 trim stage 3. .63 housing on my old 8 valve, ported head by me, ported 2 piece by me, auto, it was a bit laggy around town but in boost, it was fine. YOu should easily be able to spool a stage II wheel. I loved the S2 cam in my 2.5, :nod:

Sorry if I missed it, what cal are you running?

[Mopar318]

I meant steamy as in it will get pretty hot inside. No actuall steam or coolant smell.

[moparzrule]

Thats weird you having spool issues. I ran a log type header, 50 trim stage 3. .63 housing on my old 8 valve, ported head by me, ported 2 piece by me, auto, it was a bit laggy around town but in boost, it was fine. YOu should easily be able to spool a stage II wheel. I loved the S2 cam in my 2.5, :nod:

Sorry if I missed it, what cal are you running?


A 2.5 spools the turbo faster about 500-600 RPM's. Huge difference.

[turbovanman²]

I meant steamy as in it will get pretty hot inside. No actuall steam or coolant smell.


Gotcha.


A 2.5 spools the turbo faster about 500-600 RPM's. Huge difference.

Maybe but I've read 2.2 guys having no issues spooling a 50 trim, stage II wheel.

[moparzrule]

Maybe but I've read 2.2 guys having no issues spooling a 50 trim, stage II wheel.

Usually it's anywhere from 3600-4000 RPM on a 2.2, and anywhere from 3000-3500 on a 2.5 for that turbo, depending on how well flowing the rest of your setup is.
I have a stage 3 turbine, on my 2.5 I had full boost at 3300 RPM, with the same top end on a 2.2 it is 3900.

[turbovanman²]

Usually it's anywhere from 3600-4000 RPM on a 2.2, and anywhere from 3000-3500 on a 2.5 for that turbo, depending on how well flowing the rest of your setup is.
I have a stage 3 turbine, on my 2.5 I had full boost at 3300 RPM, with the same top end on a 2.2 it is 3900.

I had full spool around 4200 on my 8 valve, stock cam. Haven't actually checked with the TIII set up yet.

[moparzrule]

I had full spool around 4200 on my 8 valve, stock cam. Haven't actually checked with the TIII set up yet.

With a 2.5??

Oh oh, thats right you were running the G head without a proper cal, huge difference as well.

[stage3]

So I guess the header is my problem. Will find out for sure when I replace it. So what is the benefit of it supposed to be over a ported stock manifold?
Another wasted year of not enjoying the car. At least I only put about 400 miles on it.

[moparzrule]

So what is the benefit of it supposed to be over a ported stock manifold?
.


A lot more flow!

You are going to re-use the 50 trim turbo on the ported stocker right? Need to rule out the turbo first.

[stage3]

A lot more flow!

You are going to re-use the 50 trim turbo on the ported stocker right? Need to rule out the turbo first.

Let me ask this. Which turbo should spool faster.
1. A true T3/T4 50 trim T04E stage 2 exhaust.
2. T3/T4 50 trim in a T3 comp housing and stage 2 exhaust. The one everyone calls a POS or halfass turbo.

[badandy]

Let me ask this. Which turbo should spool faster.
1. A true T3/T4 50 trim T04E stage 2 exhaust.
2. T3/T4 50 trim in a T3 comp housing and stage 2 exhaust. The one everyone calls a POS or halfass turbo.
:lol: Not laughing at you...but the POS turbo comment.

With all due respect to people whom I have friendships with and much admiration for...results are results...and there is much more to a good running car than assembling parts that *should* do this or that on paper. Don't lose yourself in the hype as it's often greater than the actual results. A year or two from now those same people are going to be calling non-ball bearing turbos POS's and some do already.

As far as the spool is concerned...I'd put my money on the T3 covered POS turbo :clap:

[cordes]

As far as the spool is concerned...I'd put my money on the T3 covered POS turbo :clap:

My actual T4 covered turbo spools much more quickly than my halfassed hybrid does in my 2.2. The T3 cover turbo spools about the same as the T4 covered one when it is on a 2.5.

[moparzrule]

Let me ask this. Which turbo should spool faster.
1. A true T3/T4 50 trim T04E stage 2 exhaust.
2. T3/T4 50 trim in a T3 comp housing and stage 2 exhaust. The one everyone calls a POS or halfass turbo.

Depends, something could be wrong with the turbo.
But there could be nothing wrong with the turbo who knows.

As for the spoolup, I've had a 46 trim/.63 stage 2 in the super 60 cover before and it spooled the same as any hybrid on a 2.2. Right around 3800 RPM full boost.

[stage3]

Back from the dead. Just wondering if anyone has just replaced their stock manifold with the header and used the same turbo. If so how did it effect the spool. I have had someone else tell me they are having the same issues and think it's the problem.

[stage3]

Went back to the stock ported exhaust manifold, "fake" T3/T4 turbo and reinstalled the modified 1 pc intake. Difference is like night and day. 20+ psi by 4k in 3rd, hit 28psi with no problem. Guess I have to go with what works for me. Hope to hit the dyno in the next couple weeks to tune the fuel.

[turbovanman²]

So you used the same "fake" turbo on both manifolds?

[stage3]

So you used the same "fake" turbo on both manifolds?

No, had a true T/3 T/4 T04E on the header.

[turbovanman²]

Well at this point, you can't blame the header. You need to run the true T3/T4 on the stocker and see what happens.

[stage3]

To put the other turbo on stocker is more work then I want to do on it anymore.
It is a brand new turbo, didn't smoke, the wheel spun freely.

[10G OMNI]

Like you said go with what works,my fake turbo put my glh in mid 12 at over 110 with 18 psi,who cares what turbo it is 46trim/57 satge 1/2/3/4 this cover that cover it works and it delivers.

[stage3]

Like you said go with what works,my fake turbo put my glh in mid 12 at over 110 with 18 psi,who cares what turbo it is 46trim/57 satge 1/2/3/4 this cover that cover it works and it delivers.

Your 100% right. Plus its just getting harder to find the free time to do a lot of on the car.

[cordes]

Well at this point, you can't blame the header. You need to run the true T3/T4 on the stocker and see what happens.

Agreed, not a true back to back. The full hybrid on my car actually spools better though. We tend not to rely on dyno results around here, and I don't see a need to start now. ;)

[Juggy]

so does this mean your gettin rid of the TU header??? I have a SS one here, id be willing to trade you for the cast version!!!

no porting nesscessary, just need some SHCS, lock washers, and nuts, and you ready to bolt on a turbo!

in all honesty, I like the SS location of the turbo rather then the cast unit!! its only a minor difference, but its very noticable between my buddies CSX (cast manny) and my shelby charger (SS manny). I also know for a fact I can remove my turbo without pulling the head, I dont think he can do it (or quite as easily)

[Bubba]

Back from the dead. Just wondering if anyone has just replaced their stock manifold with the header and used the same turbo. If so how did it effect the spool. I have had someone else tell me they are having the same issues and think it's the problem.

I replaced my stock manifold with the cast header and used the same T3/T4 50 trim stage2. The turbo itself could've very well been your problem. The hybrid with the T3 hgousing should spool much faster than the true hybrid. Spool was slightly better after changing to the cast header, but spool on my car has always been laggy. I've traced this issue down to an extremely high stall in my converter. Only thing that makes any sense in my situation. I could probably tweak the cal a bit more to aid the spool time, but don't plan to mess with the cal anymore until I put a 5-speed in or another converter. More than likely I'll be going back to a 5-speed.

[ssheen]

Good to hear you have it working the way you want!

I may yet do a swap and see the difference in my set up. I suspect the 2.2 vs 2.5 plays a role in here, more than some realize.

[contraption22]

I replaced my stock manifold with the cast header and used the same T3/T4 50 trim stage2. The turbo itself could've very well been your problem. The hybrid with the T3 hgousing should spool much faster than the true hybrid..

Actually many people here have found the exact opposite. The boost threshold is much better when the compressor housing is matched to the wheel. In fact, not only is what many people call "spool up" better with the T04E compressor housing, but you also will have lower charge temps at a given boost level.



Spool was slightly better after changing to the cast header, but spool on my car has always been laggy. I've traced this issue down to an extremely high stall in my converter. Only thing that makes any sense in my situation. I could probably tweak the cal a bit more to aid the spool time, but don't plan to mess with the cal anymore until I put a 5-speed in or another converter. More than likely I'll be going back to a 5-speed.

Where does your converter stall? Usually you hear of people putting in a higher stall converter to fight lag.....

[Bubba]

My converter is very loose. It's an FM unit and I can get 4500-4600 rpm when brake torquing. The lag when cruising and hitting the gas is what I'm referring to in my situation. It lauches great and you can build plenty of boost off the line, but it sucks in a street car.

No personal experience with the Hybrid T3 housing turbos, but I've had friends that have used them and had no lag problems compared to the full T3/T4 turbos. Makes sense with the smaller housing.

My main point is the turbo and converter being my common factor when switching out the stock 2.5" swingvalve/stock manifold for a cast header and 3" swingvalve. Lag was somewhat improved, but nowhere near the spool I've experienced with a T3 turbo.

[badandy]

I've never seen a 8v 2.2 spool a .50 trim (regardless of T3 or T4 cover stage II or better/ .63 housing) well enough to be what I would call "quick"...but that is indeed all a matter of opinion and granted some of it can be the calibration from my understanding (have not experienced that myself).

My thinking tells me that if the header can outflow the head than it will take the exhaust gasses longer to spool the turbo...just like putting too big of exhaust on a normally asperated motor can kill torque...roughly the same principal applies. It is the restriction of the stock manifold that allows it to "pressurize" quickly thereby pressurizing the turbine quickly.

Most vehicles powerband moves upward with headers...restricting down the exhast moves your power band down...that's how these little Hondas are able to get what little torque they have...through pea shooter exhaust.

I would have to scroll back to look but who did your cylinder head? What are the supposed flow numbers?

Guys with 16v heads can get away with spooling much bigger turbos...why?...because the superior flow of the head. It's just my opinion that the TU cast header flows better than you cylinder head does.

Eh, who knows?

[Bubba]

I think he said it was an FM head. My head's a big valve g-head that flowed a bit over 200cfm on the intake side. I did have a +1 fastburn on my old set-up with the stock manifold etc...

[badandy]

I think he said it was an FM head. My head's a big valve g-head that flowed a bit over 200cfm on the intake side. I did have a +1 fastburn on my old set-up with the stock manifold etc...

I hope it's not anything like their old ported exhaust manifold:confused:

FM has two heads, the CNC'd job and the hand ported one. Guys with Menegon's head don't seem to have issues.

[moparzrule]

My thinking tells me that if the header can outflow the head than it will take the exhaust gasses longer to spool the turbo...


Guys with 16v heads can get away with spooling much bigger turbos...why?...because the superior flow of the head. It's just my opinion that the TU cast header flows better than you cylinder head does.



I agree

[Bubba]

I hope it's not anything like their old ported exhaust manifold:confused:

FM has two heads, the CNC'd job and the hand ported one. Guys with Menegon's head don't seem to have issues.

Yea, I'm not sure which FM head he has. My head was done locally by a guy who knows our heads.

[stage3]

Not putting all the blame only on the header. For whatever reason the combination I tried didn't work. Really got tired tired of pulling the head off. Every car is different.
CNC head.

[badandy]

Not putting all the blame only on the header. For whatever reason the combination I tried didn't work. Really got tired tired of pulling the head off. Every car is different.
CNC head.

Well, I know from my own experience that there has been times where my car didn't feel faster (actually slower!) but indeed it was faster because it lost bottom end which kept it from spinning but gained much more up top.

[stage3]

Well, I know from my own experience that there has been times where my car didn't feel faster (actually slower!) but indeed it was faster because it lost bottom end which kept it from spinning but gained much more up top.

True, but my goal was to lower the powerband.

[johnl]

I have both - one on a SC and the other on a GLHT - welded TU header and a cast TU header. They are 2.2s with ported G heads, forget what the flow #s are, but they are close. Neither one of 'em spools low. Really don't expect em to - what with .63 housings, hybrid turbos and +1mm valves both sides and ported 2 pc IM and ported heads and 2.5" IC pipes big FMICs and 3" SVs and 3" exhaust. Heck the systems are big; there's a lot of volume to fill . . . .

[stage3]

So what kind of problems would a turbo have that would cause slow boost buildup.

[badandy]

True, but my goal was to lower the powerband.

I understand, however almost all your modification choices are all geared toward top end power ;)

[turbo84voyager]

I have 2 2.5's, 1 with a SS manifold and one with a stocker. The only difference is on is a G-head and the other is a swirl. They both are running 46 trim T3/T4's in the small housing. The swirl and stock manifold are in my shadow. Neither of them are extremely laggy. My 89 caravan with the hybrid has more lag than my 84 van with a T3 but both are very driveable around town. Both of these cars are auto's but they would run better around town if they were manuals. The G-head and SS manifold pulls harder on the top end even with it being in a heavier caravan. I am not sure off hand with the shadow, but the caravan will hit full boost slightly above 3K and it runs extremely well on the interstate when it is running between 2,700 RPM and 3k.

I do like the position of the turbo with the header. I did have to make a new wastegate bracket and cut the rod to clear the brake booster. The only complaint I have with the header is that for some reason mine has a very small leak where it mates to the head. I can hear it slightly when cold and I can see a little carbon on the head by it.